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Charlie Kondek
25th June 2003, 15:18
From the Syndey Morning Herald

US Planning to Recruit One in 24 Americans as Citizen Spies
by Ritt Goldstein

The Bush Administration aims to recruit millions of United States citizens as domestic informants in a program likely to alarm civil liberties groups.

The Terrorism Information and Prevention System, or TIPS, means the US will have a higher percentage of citizen informants than the former East Germany through the infamous Stasi secret police. The program would use a minimum of 4 per cent of Americans to report "suspicious activity".

Civil liberties groups have already warned that, with the passage earlier this year of the Patriot Act, there is potential for abusive, large-scale investigations of US citizens.

As with the Patriot Act, TIPS is being pursued as part of the so-called war against terrorism. It is a Department of Justice project.

Highlighting the scope of the surveillance network, TIPS volunteers are being recruited primarily from among those whose work provides access to homes, businesses or transport systems. Letter carriers, utility employees, truck drivers and train conductors are among those named as targeted recruits.

A pilot program, described on the government Web site www.citizencorps.gov, is scheduled to start next month in 10 cities, with 1 million informants participating in the first stage. Assuming the program is initiated in the 10 largest US cities, that will be 1 million informants for a total population of almost 24 million, or one in 24 people.

Historically, informant systems have been the tools of non-democratic states. According to a 1992 report by Harvard University's Project on Justice, the accuracy of informant reports is problematic, with some informants having embellished the truth, and others suspected of having fabricated their reports.

Present Justice Department procedures mean that informant reports will enter databases for future reference and/or action. The information will then be broadly available within the department, related agencies and local police forces. The targeted individual will remain unaware of the existence of the report and of its contents.

The Patriot Act already provides for a person's home to be searched without that person being informed that a search was ever performed, or of any surveillance devices that were implanted.

At state and local levels the TIPS program will be co-ordinated by the Federal Emergency Management Agency, which was given sweeping new powers, including internment, as part of the Reagan Administration's national security initiatives. Many key figures of the Reagan era are part of the Bush Administration.

The creation of a US "shadow government", operating in secret, was another Reagan national security initiative.

Copyright © 2002. The Sydney Morning Herald

Vapour
25th June 2003, 15:33
The news is old. This plan was scrapped.

Here is something which is more interesting.

http://www.freemikehawash.org/

Homeland security at work.

elder999
25th June 2003, 16:26
Originally posted by Vapour
The news is old. This plan was scrapped.

Here is something which is more interesting.

http://www.freemikehawash.org/

Homeland security at work.

NO, Hajime, this plan was not scrapped.

This plan has been part of FEMA's organizational plan for more than 20 years.

As a volunteer emergency responder, search and rescue team member and , in a professional capacity, part time employee of the Department of Homeland Security, I can tell you that this plan has not been scrapped....

Charlies link might not work, though, so here:

http://www.citizencorps.gov/

just because it doesn't mention the program in the article, though, doesn't mean that program doesn't exist....

Vapour
25th June 2003, 16:38
Now, obviously disaster response team and citizen spy is vastly different. For what I have read, project to create nework of citizen spy has been scrapped but you seems to have better souce of info than I do. This disaster response team can be used as citizen spy. If that is the case, it would be very sad day for any civils society.

elder999
25th June 2003, 16:39
...they're still using utility people, delivery people and, of course, law enforcement people

Tamdhu
25th June 2003, 16:50
The Orwellian prophesy came true long before any hint of TIPS-like programs came into play. We're currently soaking ourselves (allowing ourselves to be soaked) in a culture that is 'evolving' to control our thoughts and behaviours with legal restraints. Any accusation of xexual, racial or cultural 'harassment' is now an accepted magic bullet to destroy our first amendment rights and have jail time and fines levied against our fellow citizens for 'talking dirty'.

'Hate Crime' modifiers can now be levied against assault crimes to multiply exponentially the fines levied and/or time served simply because the crime was committed in a spirit of hate. Some idiot in Georgia gets rightfully sentenced to two years in prison for punching a retarded girl. The sentense then expands to SIX years because he mouthed racial slurs while doing so.

Two years for punching a little girl, FOUR years for mouthing 'unacceptable' thoughts.

ThoughtCrime.

THAT'S scary.

THAT'S pathetic.

THAT'S the kind of mind-control that Orwell was warning us about. The kind that no one sees until you're already soaking in it. The kind that no one can publicly say No to without opening themselves to being labeled a 'racist', 'sexist', 'anti-gay' or whatever.

And THAT'S what's for dinner, while you piss and moan about GWB's efforts to detect and thwart terrorism at home.

elder999
25th June 2003, 16:58
Originally posted by Tamdhu
ThoughtCrime.

THAT'S scary.

THAT'S pathetic.

THAT'S the kind of mind-control that Orwell was warning us about. The kind that no one sees until you're already soaking in it. The kind that no one can publicly say No to without opening themselves to being labeled a 'racist', 'sexist', 'anti-gay' or whatever.

And THAT'S what's for dinner, while you piss and moan about GWB's efforts to detect and thwart terrorism at home.

DOn't really care about the first part...you have a problem with it, I don't..how's that?

As for GWB's efforts, that not exactly his; he's merely placing mechanisms in place that were set up long ago.The fqact that he's taking advantage of 9-11 and doing so under the guise of :thwarting and detecting terrorism at home," is PATHETIC.

Tamdhu
25th June 2003, 17:17
you have a problem with it, I don't..how's that?


How's that? To be expected, I suppose. You're jumping through all the hoops your pop-culture activism network puts in front of you. Good doggie! When the time comes, you can vote for Hillary and make everything all better. You happily give up your rights and everyone else's if some hippy chick on the web or MTV tells you it's cool.

Shout it out now, "Mean People Suck!" ROWF! Throw 'em in jail. Good doggie!

And GWB is 'taking advantage of 911' to do 'what', exactly, at home, under the 'guise of fighting terrorism'? Which words has he banned from the English language? Whose children is he indoctrinating to monitor their parents speach for 'incorrect' thoughts or phrases? Which textbooks has he ravaged to delete any passages, modes of speach or references which might cast him in less than a stellar light?

Please, help this poor dupe of the conspiracy to see the light.

Charlie Kondek
25th June 2003, 17:49
Ahem.

Be nice.

You have a point, control mechanisms come from both left and right.

I learn a lot when peoplke discuss politics evenly, levelly and objectively.

I learn nothing when we start foaming at the mouth - and believe me, I've done more than my fair share of mouth-foaming.

Edit: That said, Bush is evil.

:D

elder999
25th June 2003, 18:22
Originally posted by Tamdhu


How's that? To be expected, I suppose. You're jumping through all the hoops your pop-culture activism network puts in front of you. Good doggie! When the time comes, you can vote for Hillary and make everything all better. You happily give up your rights and everyone else's if some hippy chick on the web or MTV tells you it's cool.

Shout it out now, "Mean People Suck!" ROWF! Throw 'em in jail. Good doggie!

And GWB is 'taking advantage of 911' to do 'what', exactly, at home, under the 'guise of fighting terrorism'? Which words has he banned from the English language? Whose children is he indoctrinating to monitor their parents speach for 'incorrect' thoughts or phrases? Which textbooks has he ravaged to delete any passages, modes of speach or references which might cast him in less than a stellar light?

Please, help this poor dupe of the conspiracy to see the light.




Let's break this up into a couple of posts...I'm not particularly concerned about you as a "poor dupe of the conspiracy," there isn't necessarily a conspiracy, as much as a buynch of dangerous, wrong-headed, knee-jerk, ill-considered actions. The fact that some of them-like textbook reform/editing for political agendas-have existed since George W. Bush's sole ambition in life was to be Major League Baseball Comissioner doesn't absolve him or his administration of their stupidity.

WHile you may have thought that liberal adjustments to P.C. language were the sole source of textbook reform-wrongheaded textbook reform, I might add-the fact is that special interest groups on both sides of the idealogical fence have been responsible for such changes.

Special interest groups with large pocketbooks are censoring
America's grammar and secondary school anthologies before they are
published.

These groups, which are particularly strong in Texas and
California, represent ultra-conservative fundamentalists and
ultra-liberals, and they have altered the textbook versions of
classic stories read in grade schools and high schools across the
country.

Among the seemingly endless list of works that parents and
special interest groups, such as the Washington, D.C.-based
Concerned Women for America, have objected to are Dickens' A
Christmas Carol, The Wizard of Oz, Steinbeck's The Grapes of Wrath
and the Shakespearean plays, The Merchant of Venice and Romeo and
Juliet.

The "problems" special interest groups have identified in those works include the "promotion of junk food"(sugar plums and other sweets in Dickens), "Satan worship" (witches in The Wizard of Oz), the "negative depiction of free enterprise"(the capitalist grape growers in Steinbeck) and anti-Semitism,teenage sex and the association of violence with religion in Shakespeare.

Obviously, these varied objections come from different quarters. Protestors on the far right tend to be religiousfundamentalist-extremists. Especially active in Texas, such people vigorously pursue the censoring of a muchbroader range of literature than left-wing protestors.

Protestors on the far left often object to more specific issues,like the treatment of a particular minority by a book.

Ultra-conservatives have objected to a line in Romeo and Juliet that refers to burning heretics at the stake, as it suggests that religion has a negative side. As a result of lobbying efforts by these right-wing extremists, no American high school anthologies of Shakespeare's play include the reference.

Ultra-liberals, on the other hand, have objected to such stories as Patricia Zettner's "A Perfect Day for Ice Cream," which describes a child's birthday party. Because of pressure from California protestors, Houghton Mifflin changed the title to "A Perfect Day."

The Kansas Board of Education’s recent decision to remove evolution from the state science standards has once again brought the debate about creationism into the national spotlight. Yet the Board’s decision is not an isolated incident. For example, Kentucky recently deleted the word “evolution” from its new state science guidelines, substituting the words “change over time” during a last-minute editing session. As in Kansas, the change was done over the objection of educators and scientists involved in the process of drafting the state standards. The Illinois State Board of Education made a similar substitution in 1997. And most recently, Oklahoma joined Alabama in requiring a disclaimer on biology textbooks. Bills pending before the state legislatures in Georgia and Ohio would require teachers to present evidence inconsistent with evolution whenever teaching the topic. School boards in Arizona, Alabama, Illinois, New Mexico, Texas
and Nebraska have tried to remove evolution from the state standards or modify its teaching in the past few years. Faced with personal attack and sometimes the loss of livelihood, teachers are increasingly reluctant to teach this fundamental scientific principle.

The censorship of textbooks is not limited to literature. History books have been censored to leave Franklin Roosevelt's New Deal off a time line of important dates in U.S.history and to reduce the discussion of slavery's significance inthe Civil War. Psychology, home economics, biology and mathematics books are also censored.

The work of long-dead authors is in the public domain, allowing publishers to censor the individual works thatmake up elementary and high school anthologies. Living authors often give the right to final editing to their publisher,allowing for further censorship.

So you can see that textbook censorship is nothing new, and both sides are guilty. While I won't accuse Bush or Ashcroft of being directly responsible for these sort of things, it's no secret which side of the divide they fall on, and it wouldn't take much research to find their support of the right wing texbook agenda-given that they are avowed fundamentalist Christians.....

As for the post 9-11, "Homeland Security," "anti-terrorist'-excuse me, anti-citizen agenda, well, I'll show you .

By the way, while its merits or lack thereof are arguable,"anti-hate" legislation DOESN'T tell you what to think;it merely makes some forms of behavior a crime. There's a huge difference between calling me a nigger and calling me a nigger while you kick me to death, and an even bigger difference between thinking it and saying it.

You also should pay a little more attention to my work, John...much of "homeland Security," like "No Child Left Behind," and this administration's environmentlal policies is a ridiculous tissue of lies.....

David T Anderson
25th June 2003, 18:27
Well, on the up-side, the UPS/FexEx delivery guys might actually wait long enough for you to open the door when they have a package for you...

[Yes it's terrible. America is on the slippery slope and starting to pick up speed... Canada doesn't have this yet, but it will ASAP after the US project gets going. But Big Brother is our friend, right?]

Dom C
25th June 2003, 19:41
Originally posted by elder999

The fqact that he's taking advantage of 9-11 and doing so under the guise of :thwarting and detecting terrorism at home," is PATHETIC.

And if he was doing any less,it seems like you'd be the guy saying he wasnt doing enough.
damned if you do,damned if you dont.
elder999, whats your plan for national security ?

What are your ideas on keeping a country safe,while still maintaing your utopian ideals ?
just curious.

thanks,

Chuck Munyon
25th June 2003, 20:02
Ah, yes, the Utopian ideals of free speech, right to access to council and a speedy trial, right to a freedom from unlimited detention without charges, right to reasonable expectation of privacy. Silly elder999, this is AMERICA, not the land of the free!

I'm sure Aaron will come up with an even better proposal, since I happen to think he's one of the most intelligent individuals it's ever been my privilege to meet, but in the meantime, I'll take a crack at it. My proposal for keepting the country safe is this, Dom C: continue to coordinate efforts with intelligence services around the world, while maintaining a less arrogant and aggressive national profile (see the thread on "fighting a cultural battle" for info on the U.S.'s failure to adopt anything even remotely resembling an internationalist attitude despite demanding internationalism of all American allies in the war on terrorism). Continue stringent immigration security, and continue to follow up on reliable leads from captured terrorists and from RELIABLE INFORMANTS. Purge all information from informants not found to be reliable. COnduct investigation of claims in a manner which does not place future possible sources of information in a position of not wanting to cooperate (there was an excellent article in the NY Times the other day about how domestic intelligence has completely shot itself in the foot with all of the arrests and detentions earlier in the campaign, as so many arabs who might one day be valuable sources of information suffered humiliation, intimidation, and damage to their reputations as a result of the roundups and now want nothing to do with the FBI; many branch offices have gone so far as to issue sincere and abject apologies in the hopes of improving relations).
Finally, accept that if individuals are truly determined, we may not be able to stop them all. Israel and the Mossad already engage in tactics that many consider despicable; they haven't come close to succeeding in stemming the tide. Destroying our personal freedoms doesn't guarantee we will be safe from another attack, and it degrades and debases the greatest aspects of our country in the process.

Charlie Kondek
25th June 2003, 20:03
Originally posted by Dom C
What are your ideas on keeping a country safe,while still maintaing your utopian ideals ?
just curious.

Uh-oh!

*Ducks*


Hey, by the way, what's wrong with "Ice Cream" in "A Perfect Day for Ice Cream?"

TenguAteMyPuppy
25th June 2003, 20:27
You're all crazy.

mews
25th June 2003, 20:27
Hey, by the way, what's wrong with "Ice Cream" in "A Perfect Day for Ice Cream?"

---

depends:

pushing sugar upon the obese and pre-diabetic children of the land

oppression of the lactose-intolerant, who must make do with soy-substitutes.

offending those who hate ice cream

exploitation of animals, in factory-farming of milk cows

i'm sure we can come up with more.

mew

Dom C
25th June 2003, 20:55
Originally posted by Chuck

I'm sure Aaron will come up with an even better proposal, since I happen to think he's one of the most intelligent individuals it's ever been my privilege to meet, but in the meantime, I'll take a crack at it.

ok ,I'm sure he's a great guy. And thanks for taking a crack at it.
It seems like so many people get caught up whining about how much everything sucks ,rather than trying to find solutions that will make things better.



Continue stringent immigration security, and continue to follow up on reliable leads from captured terrorists and from RELIABLE INFORMANTS. Purge all information from informants not found to be reliable.

ok,but dont you think the intelligence community is trying its hardest to find these RELIABLE INFORMANTS? Do you think they believe anything that anyone tells them? Of course there is a filtering process that takes place. This is tricky,but i agree with you it is very important,and I'm sure steps are being taken to insure more quality information.



COnduct investigation of claims in a manner which does not place future possible sources of information in a position of not wanting to cooperate (there was an excellent article in the NY Times the other day about how domestic intelligence has completely shot itself in the foot with all of the arrests and detentions earlier in the campaign, as so many arabs who might one day be valuable sources of information suffered humiliation, intimidation, and damage to their reputations as a result of the roundups and now want nothing to do with the FBI; many branch offices have gone so far as to issue sincere and abject apologies in the hopes of improving relations).

I didnt read the article,but agree with the point you are making.



Finally, accept that if individuals are truly determined, we may not be able to stop them all.

From what I've heard/seen/read this is an accepted reality by everyone.Unless youve seen comments stating otherwise,which I'd be interested in reading.
I think its better in setting the standards HIGH when it comes to security.Setting lower standards is just going to get you less results.


Israel and the Mossad already engage in tactics that many consider despicable; they haven't come close to succeeding in stemming the tide.

true,but what is the point here?


Destroying our personal freedoms doesn't guarantee we will be safe from another attack, and it degrades and debases the greatest aspects of our country in the process.

agree. thanks for taking the time to respond.

elder999
25th June 2003, 22:15
First off-thanks Chuck! Geez, do I have you fooled!

Guess I owe you a beer……..

Secondly, Dom, my ideals are hardly utopian…they’re constitutional, perhaps.
They’re most definitely American.

I’ll start by asking you a couple of rhetorical questions:

Were we secure before 9-11? Are we more secure now?

In answer, no, and hell no!


No one was ever secure, except in their illusions.

I’ll point out here that some aspects of my professional life have direct bearing on these matters, and, while I’m not at liberty to talk about all of them-least of all on this forum-I an point out a few things from my viewpoint.

While some aspects of “Homeland Security,” and even the USA PATRIOT Act are acceptable measures, and even good things, most of them won’t do a damned thing to stop the proverbial “band of determined individuals, operating in secret,” from commiting acts of utter terror and chaos..

Homeland security has revitalized interest and implementation of the old Civil Defense model. A good thing, loooong overdue….

We’re educating emergency responders, the Centers for Disease Control, and law enforcement on acts of terror, terrorist groups and operations, weapons of mass destruction, and a host of other things that should have been done long ago.

Port security and law enforcement is being steadily increased, with enhanced methods of detection-a double edged sword.

As an example, long before 9-11, work was begun on the Biological Aerosol Sentry and Information System, or BASIS. I contributed a small part to BASIS, in that I engineered the kit that makes it adaptable to any EPA air quality monitoring station-by any idiot, I might add. It was first deployed at the past Winter Olympics in Salt Lake City by my good friends My opinion of BASIS –developed here at Los Alamos and deployed at the Olympics, is that it’s like a canary in a coal mine, except that when this canary sings, you’re dead.It will reduce the detection and identification of biological agents from days and weeks to hours, and , if they’re treatable, it might make a difference, but mostly,it’s not gonna make anyone safer or more secure, and we’re deploying it all over the country.

As another example, another area I work in is radiological detection. Some of you in New York and elsewhere, driving through toll booths or in port cities, might have seen cops or other personnel equipped with detectors on their belts. A good idea, but, for reasons that I won’t detail here, not necessarily one that’s going to prevent the entry of material or weapons into this country.

Wanna be secure, Dom? Move out of Seattle. Seattle is a port city, and they’re just sitting ducks, any way you look at it.GO the mountains, like me.......

The development of the USA PATRIOT Act has not resulted in the development of any substantive intelligence to date. It has not resulted in the arrests of any high level terrorist operatives to date. It has not resulted in anything but the infringement of civil rights-it hasn’t plugged any necessary holes, or made law enforcements job easier, and it’s already resulted in abuses like this:

http://www.freemikehawash.org/#facts

and, worse yet-as I’m not convinced that Hawash isn’t alQaeda, though if he is, he’s a bottom feeder like the rest of the “Portland Six”-this:


Sixty-two-year-old New York City criminal defense attorney Lynne Stewart is looking at 18 years in a federal prison. To help put her there, Attorney General John Ashcroft flew from Washington to New York to preside over a press conference announcing her indictment and that of three Arab men, charging them with "materially aiding terrorism."

Stewart was the defense trial attorney for Egyptian exile Sheik Abdel Rahman, who was convicted in 1995 for seditious conspiracy in connection with the first bombing of the World Trade Center. Lynne continued to represent him and visit him in prison.


Two years ago, when the Democrats held the presidency and before 9-1l, Stewart visited the Sheik in prison. The government spied on her visit with her client. It is this surveillance, in contravention of the attorney client privilege, upon which Republican John Ashcroft fashioned his belated indictment, this underscoring the political nature of her "crime."

You all need to wake up. What is being done to very basic civil liberties-our rights as human beings , not just Americans, is criminal.

I don’t have a plan to make us more secure. I’ve known all my life that there’s only one safe place on earth: the grave.

Dom C
25th June 2003, 23:38
Originally posted by elder999


I’ll start by asking you a couple of rhetorical questions:

Were we secure before 9-11? Are we more secure now?

In answer, no, and hell no!

i know they were rhetorical questions but....
Obviously we were not secure/properly prepared before 9-11,but do you honestly think that now we are just as lacking ? The hightened awareness of the masses has to count for something. Countries around the world are cracking down hard on terrorism. Strong attempts are being made to end the Israeli Palestinian problem.
These things dont help our security at all?



While some aspects of “Homeland Security,” and even the USA PATRIOT Act are acceptable measures, and even good things, most of them won’t do a damned thing to stop the proverbial “band of determined individuals, operating in secret,” from commiting acts of utter terror and chaos..

so your saying its pointless to even try ? No one is perfect, not even a "band of determined individuals operating in secret".




We’re educating emergency responders, the Centers for Disease Control, and law enforcement on acts of terror, terrorist groups and operations, weapons of mass destruction, and a host of other things that should have been done long ago.

Port security and law enforcement is being steadily increased, with enhanced methods of detection-a double edged sword.

Are you saying we are more prepared?


It will reduce the detection and identification of biological agents from days and weeks to hours, and , if they’re treatable, it might make a difference, but mostly,it’s not gonna make anyone safer or more secure, and we’re deploying it all over the country.

so, it is better than before.



Wanna be secure, Dom? Move out of Seattle. Seattle is a port city, and they’re just sitting ducks, any way you look at it.GO the mountains, like me.......

no thanks ,Seattles failing economy needs all the consumers it can get. :)



The development of the USA PATRIOT Act has not resulted in the development of any substantive intelligence to date. It has not resulted in the arrests of any high level terrorist operatives to date. It has not resulted in anything but the infringement of civil rights-it hasn’t plugged any necessary holes, or made law enforcements job easier, and it’s already resulted in abuses like this:

http://www.freemikehawash.org/#facts

Though I cant verify that The USA PATRIOT Act has not resulted in the development of any substantive intelligence I do agree that it is something that can easily be abused,and probably will be abused more.Which is why it should watched very carefully.



You all need to wake up. What is being done to very basic civil liberties-our rights as human beings , not just Americans, is criminal.

I don’t have a plan to make us more secure. I’ve known all my life that there’s only one safe place on earth: the grave.

thanks for the response,interesting points,though it would be nice to hear some alternatives to the measures being taken.

elder999
26th June 2003, 00:04
Originally posted by Dom C


thanks for the response,interesting points,though it would be nice to hear some alternatives to the measures being taken.



First off, let's repeal the USA PATRIOT Act.
There are no real alternatives, I guess yoou could take personal responsibility for your own security and:

Retire, move to the mountains, buy gold.....
die anyway.:rolleyes:

The only safe place is the grave......

TommyK
26th June 2003, 03:17
Greetings,

Now you know why those in politics and power cry for gun control. Hitler got it in the early thirites and we know how that turned out. The purpose of the right to bear arms, is to prevent the government from doing what they are doing. The trouble is, current technology has made the issue irrelevant.

Regards,
TommyK

elder999
26th June 2003, 22:49
NEWARK, N.J. (Reuters) - Nearly two years after the Sept. 11 attacks, U.S. law enforcement faces some daunting challenges in engaging two groups seen as early sentinels in President Bush war on terrorism," experts say.

Despite creation of anti-terrorism task forces to coordinate efforts by federal, state and local agencies, authorities have yet to include more than a small fraction of rank-and-file police in the day-to-day search for suspects.

Broad new powers of interrogation and detention given to the Justice Department under the USA Patriot Act have also alienated some members of the public, especially the U.S. Muslim community, where experts say cooperation with authorities could be critical in preventing future attacks.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20030626/lf_nm/security_challenges_dc_1

Tamdhu
26th June 2003, 23:57
I learn nothing when we start foaming at the mouth - and believe me, I've done more than my fair share of mouth-foaming.


(sighs heavily) Yes, you're quite right. I was getting a bit snippy there. Apologies all around. I really will try now to be reasonable and...


Edit: That said, Bush is evil.

DOH!

Why I oughta...

Charlie Kondek
27th June 2003, 14:34
*Jumps on Tamdhu, rolls over table with him as fists fly*

BTW, that's pretty lame that they haven't done more to educate the rank n' file cops or better equip them for the job but, rather, increased interrogation and suspension powers for certain other intelligence agencies.

That's another thing that bugs me - why do we need so many frigging agencies doing the same thing?