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View Full Version : UFC equals martial arts? Countering the argument and perception.



Benjamin Peters
26th June 2003, 00:20
1. I find anecdotally, that it's often argued by martial arts enthusiasts that 'no holds barred' (NHB) events/practitioners do not demonstrate true martial arts because of the nature of 'rules'.

2. Common examples of dismay toward NHB include (1) that real fights don't have rules, (2) NHB training limits training in multiple attacker scenarios, (3) that it's just barbaric, (4) techniques are limited (refer 1).

3. Do you feel that martial arts training in general is just as limiting in other dimensions? From the point of view of training, practice and technique repertoire, you could say that martial arts enforce rules suggesting distance and engagement, which maybe just as bad as those of NHB? That's if you see them as bad.....thoughts?

Vapour
26th June 2003, 01:24
http://www.badbreed.tv/absolutenm/anmviewer.asp?a=69&z=11

Charlie Kondek
26th June 2003, 14:31
Interesting! I love the NHB stuff myself, and think it is a good yardstick by which to measure martial arts.


1. I find anecdotally, that it's often argued by martial arts enthusiasts that 'no holds barred' (NHB) events/practitioners do not demonstrate true martial arts because of the nature of 'rules'.

There's always rules - except when there are no rules, and none of us wants to go there.


2. Common examples of dismay toward NHB include (1) that real fights don't have rules, (2) NHB training limits training in multiple attacker scenarios, (3) that it's just barbaric, (4) techniques are limited (refer 1).

Every time I hear criticisms of NHB like this I have to wonder what these people are smoking. While I'll admit that training for "the ring" or "the cage" could cause you to have some bad habits on "the street," I still maintain that it's the best and most realistic way to train. Multiple attackers? Don't fool yourself. Limited techniques? Good! KISS principle.


3. Do you feel that martial arts training in general is just as limiting in other dimensions? From the point of view of training, practice and technique repertoire, you could say that martial arts enforce rules suggesting distance and engagement, which maybe just as bad as those of NHB? That's if you see them as bad.....thoughts?

Yeah, like I said, there must always be rules in martial arts training of any kind. Limitations, absolutely necessary.

That said, I think its laughable when two guys are getting into it (usually over the internet) and one of them says, "All right, let's throw down." And the other says, "Okay, come over and throw a punch." And the first guy says, "No, I meant IN THE CAGE. I'll give you ten weeks training, and then we'll see whot he bad-ass is!"

kage110
26th June 2003, 14:39
Somewhat related conversation on another forum...


www.budo-forum.org.uk/viewforum.php?f=19 (http://www.budo-forum.org.uk/viewforum.php?f=19)



....hopefully that works:rolleyes:

Mike Williams
26th June 2003, 15:09
I'd just like to point out that everything has rules.

Everyone bangs on about "the street" or "real-life encounters" but there are rules there too. The moment you consider the legal or physical consequences of an altercation, you are imposing rules on yourself. Your opponent(s) will also have a set of 'rules' that govern their behaviour. You might not know what they are, they might not do you any favours, but they are there.

THere are plenty of very good reasons for studying a MA apart from learning to fight - but if you do want to learn to fight, you need to adopt some of the training methodology of combat sports. And of all combat sports, MMA has the least restrictions on technique - and covers the most ranges.

Cheers,

Mike

PS: Thanks for that clip, Hajime. Ouch. And to think I was nearly dumped on my head drilling ura-nage last night too... Scary.

CEB
26th June 2003, 15:45
Originally posted by Charlie Kondek
...I still maintain that it's the best and most realistic way to train. Multiple attackers? Don't fool yourself. Limited techniques? Good! KISS principle. ...

Other guys have made this point and I agree with them. MMA events allow more Karate techniques than are allowed in any karate tournament and allow more Judo techniques than are allowed in any Judo tournament. I see a lot of fights happen on the weekends. What I've seen in the UFC comes closer to real fighting than anything else I've ever seen.

I've heard quite a few karate people over the years make remarks about the poor quality of the fights they have witnessed. Karate-ka seem to like to point to how fighters end up 'rolling around on the ground'. I think MMA has done a lot to educate more classically minded martial arts some of the realities that exist in the world. Like when you wind up with someone on top off you need to hold them as close in tight as possible in order to try to minimize the effectiveness of their strikes. Hopefully you can catch their balance off enough to roll over onto the top position and create a striking gap. Hence you start to understand some other reasons you see people rolling on the ground in parking lots and pubs.

CEB
26th June 2003, 15:57
Great post Mr. Williams.

drDalek
27th June 2003, 10:26
We had a few episodes of IFC (International Fight Club) down here a couple of months ago.

I have never seen such a sorry group of "Martial Artists", all of them claim to have X number of years doing martial art X and yet in the ring. They do these bjj tackles on each other and then its a bit of wriggling and wrestling and punching each other until someone gives up.

I have had more brutal fights with my brother before I even started doing MA.

If you claim to have 15 years of shaolin kung-fu atleast have the courtesy to take a kung-fu stance before charging in for the inevitable bjj-alike takedown tackle.

TenguAteMyPuppy
27th June 2003, 10:41
I like that backyard wrestling stuff. Anyone seen that video? Looks like far more fun than NHB. You get the bonus of training with weapons of opportunity!

Mike Williams
27th June 2003, 13:13
Originally posted by drDalek
I have never seen such a sorry group of "Martial Artists", all of them claim to have X number of years doing martial art X and yet in the ring. They do these bjj tackles on each other and then its a bit of wriggling and wrestling and punching each other until someone gives up.

If you claim to have 15 years of shaolin kung-fu atleast have the courtesy to take a kung-fu stance before charging in for the inevitable bjj-alike takedown tackle.

Are you serious?

Leaving aside the fact that fights do not, ever, look like the movies or paired kata demonstrations...
Leaving aside the fact that stances (kung-fu or otherwise) are largely training (rather than combat) tools...
Leaving aside the fact that amateur (or even regional pro) competition will hardly show up the most awesome technique, even in karate, or judo, or shodokan aikido...
Leaving aside the fact that a double-leg takedown into ground-and-pound is just about the most effective basic fight strategy around...

Leaving all that aside, have you ever paused to consider that there is just as much skill (and to the knowing eye, beauty) in a well executed takedown and efficient newaza as there is in the fanciest trad MA technique?
Have you paused to consider that those guys are going in there and fighting full contact, with all the courage and 'martial spirit' that involves?
Have you paused to consider that some techniques might actually be more effective than others, and that they might not look like your preconceived notions about martial arts?

I really don't want to sound like a refugee from the Underground here. I have tons of respect for traditional martial arts - but honestly, your post sounded as ignorant as if I had said "all that aikido stuff is rubbish, they just leap around for each other like dancers, that would never work in real life" (which I don't believe, btw).

Sorry if this sounds harsh, but I really thought that 10 years on from the start of the MMA revolution, attitudes had started to change. You don't have to like MMA, but please respect it.
Rant over.

Cheers,

Mike

Charlie Kondek
27th June 2003, 14:14
Nice posts, Mike. You, too, Ed.

Something I'm wondering: do you think some MMA fighters or teachers or coaches are frauds? I've seen what appear to be some hastily slapped-together curriculums for NHB fighters that are TOO simple. Grappling and fisticuffs should be simple, but there's an elegance in that simplicity, and it is usually informed by extensive knowledge of TMA and western combat sport. In other words, I think there are a number of people who claim to be grapplers that didn't go the BJJ, judo, wrestling route, but only know a few takedowns and reversals. I guess the truth comes out on the mat, though...

Mike Williams
27th June 2003, 14:43
Frauds might be too strong a word...

But MMA is a young sport (especially in Europe), and there seem to be vale tudo gyms popping up all over the place - the talent pool is still not that great, and a lot of instructors must logically be pretty inexperienced.

In theory, the competitive nature of MMA should weed out the less talented (you can judge gymns/instructors by their fight record). What does concern me slightly is that many people are going straight into fighting pro (or semi pro) without sufficient training or experience. What the sport really needs is a good base of amateur tournaments to build fighters up, and feed that experience back into the teaching.

Luckily there is just such an event at the end of July about 10 minutes walk from my house. Still debating whether to enter or not (I'm 35, and am very confident. Confident that I'll get a total pounding! :D )

Cheers,

Mike (Fred Ettish Wannabe)

drDalek
27th June 2003, 14:54
Originally posted by Mike Williams

Leaving aside the fact that fights do not, ever, look like the movies or paired kata demonstrations...
Leaving aside the fact that stances (kung-fu or otherwise) are largely training (rather than combat) tools...
Leaving aside the fact that amateur (or even regional pro) competition will hardly show up the most awesome technique, even in karate, or judo, or shodokan aikido...
Leaving aside the fact that a double-leg takedown into ground-and-pound is just about the most effective basic fight strategy around...


I dont doubt that you know much more about mixed MAs and "NHB" style fighting than me, its just that after the 3rd or 5th match where both guys claim to do TKD and you never see either of them throw a punch or a kick, you start to feel a little cheated and even bored.

I dont moan about the guys that claim to do MMA or even "Grappling", infact I expect takedowns and newaza from them, but a TKD or Thai boxing guy that does not punch or kick? Realy now.

Then again, maybe IFC just sucks and UFC does not.

hector gomez
27th June 2003, 16:30
Great topic and some good points of views.I think that even with the rules that are presented in the sport of MMA,I find it hard to believe how some serious martial artist do not even consider learning from some of the lessons that are learned in the MMA rings.

There are physical realities that happen in the ring that will and can definitely transfer over into a real fight,ofcourse not all realities are adressed in the rings but so many of the dynamics are so similar,that for any serious practicioner not taking full advantage of the wealth of information,would seem silly.

Talking about realities,some karate,tkd,kungfu,practicioners might believe that they can continue fighting for 5 minutes upright in a kick&punch situation,well if you happen not to end it quickly you can and will be faced with the realities of a grappling type scenario,so if you are not adressing the issue you will be short changing yourself.


Ofcourse the only reason why there would even be a debate as to wether this is true or not is because alot of practicioners will not put themselves in a situation to find out if these physical realities are possible or not.How many karate,tkd,kung fu schools allow tackling to take place as part of their training routine?

That is something that a MMA practicioner understands about when dealing with the physical realities of a fight and that is.....the different variables that can and will happen in a real fight,the streets are no different in the sense that there are too many variables and one must be ready for anything.


Hector Gomez

CEB
27th June 2003, 18:07
Originally posted by Mike Williams
...
But MMA is a young sport (especially in Europe), and there seem to be vale tudo gyms popping up all over the place - the talent pool is still not that great, and a lot of instructors must logically be pretty inexperienced.
....


Is MMA something that should only be acquired but never taught? Or has it reached a level of maturity that gyms are available that can teach MMA as a complete method?


I mean is there still an advantage for people to acquire grappling skills from a school that teaches only grappling and to learn striking methods from striking specialist or has the synthesis various fighting methods reached a point of maturity where it is best to go to a one stop that teaches all?

hector gomez
27th June 2003, 19:28
Ed,

That is an excellent question,should MMA be taught as a whole complete system or is it better to learn the various specialties in their own setting and then add it in to make you a better rounded fighter?

Someone that I think was confronted with this situation,theory or idea was bruce lee with his JKD movement years before.ofcourse he passed away and we were left with a theory and with everyone elses different interpretations on how to go about acquiring all these different skills.

The way it stands right now MMA is comprised of a lot of different fighting arts which can best be learned at a high level thru learning them thru the different specialist that teach each of those different arts.

What those specialist don't or might not teach you is how to put it together or make it flow with the other arts.Fighting camps like the Miletech fighting system,chute boxe,Brazilian top team,etc. are defintley on the cutting edge of putting it all together in training.wether that can be put together and taught as an effective system to the masses(some are already doing it) is a different story that presents a whole new set of problems.


One can learn an effective way to kick and punch from a Muaythai instructor and by the same token you can learn from a greco roman coach how to clinch and take down but who is developing the drills that take you from kicking and punching into takedowns?

That would be the new generation of MMA gyms or camps that deal specificly with those issues.My opinion would be that one still needs to seek a specialty instructor but putting it all together is an art all by itself.

Hector Gomez

Onmitsu
27th June 2003, 20:01
I am at odds over the question of MMA and NHB .Vs Martial arts.
I see the virtue in both types of training, however to me the ultimate consideration is one of intention. I have always understood the idea of 'Martial Arts' to contain the core principle of the "Virtue to stop violence". The intention in a public setting (on the 'street')is for an end to conflict. If one feels that their life is indeed in jeapordy or the use of deadly force is implied or threatened then the methods a 'Martial artist' would use would differ (IMHO) from what would be employed in a sporting match (no matter how brutal).
A lot of the NHB types train to together or at least get to know each other on the circuit. It's a money making venture and injuries while a certain hazard are avoided as much as possible. I feel that it is rare for a sport fighter to have the attitude or intention of retiring his rivals in the ring by permantly maiming them. On the 'street' a MA has to not only gauge the threat level in a short span of time but he also has to respond apropriately to avoid litigation or incarceration. If a mistake in judgement is made there is no 'throwing in the towel' or 'tapping out'. This makes for a completely different dynamic. I for one would immediatly begin to tear off any accessible body part (including eyeballs) of an attacker who is trying to choke or submit me on the street. I would have no idea if homicide is his intention or not.

WJ55
27th June 2003, 20:28
I have to preface this by saying that I did not have time to read this entire thread, only the initial post by Ben. So I apologize ahead of time if anything I say has already been covered or sounds regurgitated (sp?)in any way.

I think that MMA/NHB has had both it's positive and negative share of impacts on the general martial arts world as a whole.

Probably the most positive thing I like is that MMA have forced many, if not all martial artists to look at their training more realistically. I think it really struck a chord when people saw the first UFC's and watched what was happening to some of the participants. As an example off the top of my head, I just can't help but to think about how important grappling seemed to have become after the first UFC's took place. In that sense, MMA had a positive impact in making people who never took grappling seriously enough, to do so, and improve themselves as martial artists as a whole.

Then again....

There's the not-so-great side of MMA. I can't help but notice when surfing on some MMA sites and noticing the complete lack of respect and overall dirt-baggedness that many of these people respect. Quite honestly, many of these people seem like a bunch of assholes who have no respect for themselves, or anyone else. Now I know that not all MMA's are like that, and I'm certainly not saying the traditional arts don't have their bad apples, but this seems to be a prevailing philosophy amongst these people. I just find it a bit unsettling that people with the dangerous skills they possess, act the way they do. I could easily see these guys walking into a bar/club, start trash talking, and really end up hurting someone. I would just like to see these people act with a little more respect and friendliness towards each other and everbody else as a whole.

Oh well, if it was to be that way, testosterone would have never been invented.

:mst:

Aozora
27th June 2003, 22:03
I think for many martial artist, the NHB stuff is a reaality check and a good one... if you think you can train for 10 hours a week at your regular karate/TKD/judo/aikido class and expect to take out some guy with a foot of heigth and 100 pounds on you by virtue of the inthernent properites of the maritial art you take, you probably to need to meet a double leg take down.

OTOH, all these UFC fanatics who claim to be the Ultimate Warriors in the World need a reality check as well. I doubt very serious the Shamrocks, Gracies, et al, of the world would want to step on the same battlefield as the U.S. Marines, Seal Team 6 or anyone with a bit of distance and a firearm. Or even a 5' malaysian who's survived by sticks and knives. Most unarmed martial arts undoubtedly came out of wrestling around or last resorts when the weapons broke/ran out. The point being, before you go and dismiss some of these martial arts because they won't step inot or haven't won in the ring, be mindful of how and why these arts work.

Eric Baluja
27th June 2003, 22:33
Originally posted by WJ55
I can't help but notice when surfing on some MMA sites and noticing the complete lack of respect and overall dirt-baggedness that many of these people respect. Quite honestly, many of these people seem like a bunch of assholes who have no respect for themselves, or anyone else. Now I know that not all MMA's are like that, and I'm certainly not saying the traditional arts don't have their bad apples, but this seems to be a prevailing philosophy amongst these people. I just find it a bit unsettling that people with the dangerous skills they possess, act the way they do. I could easily see these guys walking into a bar/club, start trash talking, and really end up hurting someone. I would just like to see these people act with a little more respect and friendliness towards each other and everbody else as a whole. Competition breeds competitiveness. The worst face of competitiveness is the thuggery you describe. At its best, a developed sense of competitiveness may give someone locked in a battle for their lives that little bit extra, that "I-don't-care-how-big-and-strong-you-are-and-how-bad-you-want-to-hurt-me, I-WILL-go-home-tonight" quality (there must be a shorter way of saying that!).

A. M. Jauregui
27th June 2003, 23:27
Like Mike stated there are rules to everything.

The only issues that I have concerning MMA and NHB types is that there is a definite lack of a structural system and that it is sport of the young.

I have done open mat work with a fairly wide range of people (the strangest people show up) and what I have seen is that the younger people that have only done MMA have a hodgepodge of techniques and a rudimentary mind set when it comes to tactics. The pros to this are that they have a bit of knowledge from a prolifera of systems and a litmus test of this works or this does not work for ‘me.‘ The cons are that in many cases they are missing the forest do to the tress - what works now is just about certainly will not later in their lives.

Most traditional martial arts systems are deep and well thought out enough to still be of use to those at the edge of mid life... I know an old judo player that takes on MMA guys half his age. I have a feeling that most of those MMA guys will not be taking on youngsters half their age in a decade or two. (I have meet a few MMA that are yudansha in several traditional martial arts - they are generally really good but also the exception.)

The fighting camps that Hector mentioned will soon be splitting hairs in my mind *maybe others as well* for I can not help to think that if these camps produce people that are superior to those that have not trained in such a manner - they might as well be called ryu-ha.

Lee Mc'pherson
28th June 2003, 01:14
Unfortunatly I 'm not up to date with the NHB circuit however from what i remember all the great fighters are traditionally trained.

WJ55
28th June 2003, 04:55
Originally posted by Eric Baluja
At its best, a developed sense of competitiveness may give someone locked in a battle for their lives that little bit extra, that "I-don't-care-how-big-and-strong-you-are-and-how-bad-you-want-to-hurt-me, I-WILL-go-home-tonight" quality (there must be a shorter way of saying that!).


That is very true, I just wish I saw more of these guys/girls developing that type of positive competitiveness. My point is, these guys are undoubtedly terrific fighters and athletes, so why have to put other people/systems down?

That's right, I forgot....

Sportsmanship no longer sells.

Do people buy Lennox Lewis fights? No.

Do people buy Mike Tyson fights? Yes.

A case in point unto itself.

There's my second soapbox rant for the day.

Bustillo, A.
28th June 2003, 11:27
(Mr M Lee wrote)
Unfortunatly I 'm not up to date with the NHB circuit however from what i remember all the great fighters are traditionally trained.
_________________
Mc'pherson Lee


A. B. responds.
Not so. You are somewhat out of the loop on this one.





Originally posted by A.M. Jauregui
[B]Like Mike stated there are rules to everything.

The only issues that I have concerning MMA and NHB types is that there is a definite lack of a structural system and that it is sport of the young.




There is an 'art' to that type of training. Studied and practised as an 'art', with a good instructor, it is not only for the young.

A. M. Jauregui
28th June 2003, 12:15
Originally posted by A.M. Jauregui
Most traditional martial arts systems are deep and well thought out enough to still be of use to those at the edge of mid life... I know an old judo player that takes on MMA guys half his age. I have a feeling that most of those MMA guys will not be taking on youngsters half their age in a decade or two. (I have meet a few MMA that are yudansha in several traditional martial arts - they are generally really good but also the exception.)

I then went on to say that when fighting camps such as the one mentioned my Hector *Miletech* are solidified, the MMA that they teach becomes more of a school / system / ryu / art / what have you; therefore one no longer has MAA. A relevant example of MMA to system would be judo... *Not that I am really comparing Miletech and like schools to the Kodokan.*

:)

CEB
30th June 2003, 22:55
Originally posted by A.M. Jauregui


...*Not that I am really comparing Miletech and like schools to the Kodokan.*

:)

Why not?

A. M. Jauregui
1st July 2003, 01:29
Just did not want to offend the judo guys for the Kodokan has been around (since 1884) while Miletech and others are new to the block. There is definitely similarities at the fundamental level however - combining martial arts to form a new one. MMA to art...

Bustillo, A.
1st July 2003, 11:49
Originally posted by A.M. Jauregui
Just did not want to offend the judo guys for the Kodokan has been around (since 1884) while Miletech and others are new to the block.


Smacks a bit of an elitist attitude.

Respected antiquity is one thing, yet that status doesn't make it beyond comparison.
However, in this case perhaps the MMA practitioners will thank you for not comparing them to a one dimensional traditional art.

Eric Baluja
1st July 2003, 12:22
What was someone saying about the best and worst of competitiveness? :rolleyes:

Bustillo, A.
1st July 2003, 12:36
Originally posted by Eric Baluja
What was someone saying about the best and worst of competitiveness? :rolleyes:


We haven't gotten that far yet. We are still comparing.

Martin Adil-Smi
1st July 2003, 12:41
I think perhaps the core question that is needs to be answered in relation to this issue is:

"What is martial arts for?" or perhaps better put "Why do we train?"

If MA is about athleticisim, superior technique and ability, then UFC, Vale Tudo and all the rest are very good forums by which to demonstrate who is the most superior.

Equally, if MA is about competition, then again national and international forums are a good of demonstrating who is most compitent in their style.

However, there are those who train in MA to promote fitness, confidence, and assertiveness. Equally, there are those who train in order to "find a way" and concentrate equally on the personal/spiritual development aspect. Is there any sporting forum that can assess these attributes? I think not.

Mike Williams
1st July 2003, 12:54
Originally posted by Bustillo, A.
However, in this case perhaps the MMA practitioners will thank you for not comparing them to a one dimensional traditional art.

Ouch!!

For the record, Jigoro Kano was a mixed-martial-artist.

Cheers,

Mike

Bustillo, A.
1st July 2003, 13:19
Originally posted by Martin Adil-Smi

However, there are those who train in MA to promote fitness, confidence, and assertiveness. Equally, there are those who train in order to "find a way" and concentrate equally on the personal/spiritual development aspect. Is there any sporting forum that can assess these attributes? I think not.



Au contraire, I think so. As mentioned, one can benefit in many 'ways' from MMA type training even though one is not interested in competitoin.
However, you brought up other issues about practising an 'art' that is an another topic in itself.
Practising an 'art' involves acquiring knowledge and skill, however, at some point it also involves creativity. For the most part,--I am generalizing somewhat-- most traditional martial artist just repeat what the founders have handed down. Take any art form, music, dance, painting and MA...To copy is not to be a true 'artist'.

Soulend
1st July 2003, 16:11
Take any art form, music, dance, painting and MA...To copy is not to be a true 'artist'.

This is why Dave Lowry made the point that 'martial artisan' may be a more correct term. An 'artist' uses his art to elevate himself...as a means of displaying his talent. An artisan uses himself to elevate the art, and quite often is quite happy to simply be a link in a chain that stretches back through the ages.

Martin Adil-Smi
1st July 2003, 17:59
... if you persue that line of reasoning, are we therefore not embrassing all of those who set up their own schools and styles? For surely that is the embodiment of the "martial artisan"?

I'm not on a wind up, just playing devils advocate,

BTW, how does the sport/competition element allow for the assessment of the personal/spiritual development?

CEB
1st July 2003, 18:23
Originally posted by Martin Adil-Smi
...

BTW, how does the sport/competition element allow for the assessment of the personal/spiritual development?

I thought the competition element was part of Kano's vision for Judo.

IMO how we handle stress, conflict, and adversity can say a lot about a man's character. Combative sports can allow us a guesstimate of those tests of life.

hector gomez
1st July 2003, 18:31
Ed,

That was awesome!


Hector Gomez

Bustillo, A.
1st July 2003, 22:48
Originally posted by Soulend


This is why Dave Lowry made the point that 'martial artisan' may be a more correct term. An 'artist' uses his art to elevate himself...as a means of displaying his talent. An artisan uses himself to elevate the art, and quite often is quite happy to simply be a link in a chain that stretches back through the ages.

Good point, from Lowry's book, 'Moving Toward Stillness'.--and good book, BTW-- However, he is defending the case for adhering to traditions and the chain linking one to the past. Nothing wrong with that if that is one's choice. However, not everyone training in MMA is in it for the glory nor for competition. So, there is a fine line where the 'artist / artisan debate may in some cases apply to both methods.

On the other hand, Cesar De Bazancourt mentions in his book,'... men with courage to trample on the ancient ideas and gladly welcome the widening of the field...'

Therefore, we can not deny, that every so often a new method or a different way of doing things is developed by a virtuoso , thus creating a new and different 'chain'.

shinbushi
1st July 2003, 23:41
Originally posted by Martin Adil-Smi

BTW, how does the sport/competition element allow for the assessment of the personal/spiritual development?

from the Straight Blast Gym (http://www.straightblastgym.com/page.asp?section=qa2&parent=Press)

Q.You don't think you miss the spiritual part of all this when you take such a functional approach?

A.No, I think its the opposite. I think you miss the spiritual part of all this when you follow a Sifu and bow to ritual. The spiritual journey in all this exists in the DOING... the action of it. The actual doing... not the certificate, not the new techniques of it, not the talking about it, not the organization of it, not the certification of it, not the demonstration of it... NO... in the doing of it... thats where the spiritual aspects are. Its the heroes journey as outlined by Joseph Campbell. You have to have the balls to stand on your own, and face your demons. We do that through the environment created by resisting opponents. The more functional, the more contact, the more likely you are to confront your own ego. When their are no Sifus, no one can remain aloof. Everybody must step on the mat in front of others and show what they can actually do. For real... not a demonstration... but for real. You must tap out, get hit in the face, get tackled and kicked. We all do. We all must. We all meet our own ego. Thats the beginning of the spiritual journey. You see... do you understand? The rest is hippie !!!!!!!!. They may use semantics that sound spiritual... but its all hypocrisy. You cant fool yourself... they become bitter. Better to be honest and just train.

joe yang
2nd July 2003, 00:22
Following a master, following a tradition, seeking to perfect a tradition does not preclude one from creating, innovating, embellishing or discovering for ones own self. Traditional martial arts can be learned and taught as a jumping off point. Innovation and originality are not exclusive to modern arts. One might as easily dismiss non-traditionalists as simply "re-inventing the wheel". :D

Bryan Fishback
2nd July 2003, 06:17
MMA isn't very balanced, its all external with no real internal training. I study martial arts to live better, defending myself is part of that but only a very small part.

I also don't think sport fighting is "standing on my own and fighting my demons" as quoted above. If i'm going to fight someone it better be over something I'm ready to kill or get killed for. Theres no taping out in real life.

CEB
2nd July 2003, 14:36
Originally posted by Bryan Fishback
MMA isn't very balanced, its all external with no real internal training. I study martial arts to live better, defending myself is part of that but only a very small part....

What is internal training?

Gene Williams
2nd July 2003, 15:25
Internal training is what I do when it rains:D

Lee Mc'pherson
2nd July 2003, 16:04
a litle hepl guys and girls would be very apprecietated.
Could you give me the names of a few MMA?

Bustillo, A.
2nd July 2003, 16:15
Originally posted by Lee Mc'pherson
a litle hepl guys and girls would be very apprecietated.
Could you give me the names of a few MMA?



Mixed martial artist. To name just a few; Maurice Smith, Frank Shamrock, Bas Rutan, Tito Ortiz, Marco Ruas, Pat Militech, Matt Thornton.

Mike Williams
2nd July 2003, 16:36
Matt Thornton is very relevant to the scope of this thread, since he seems very much about teaching the full scope of MMA skills to laymen as well as competitive fighters.

Ana was asking about schools/gyms that teach the whole range of skills under one umbrella (as opposed to having the fighters cross-train in separate disciplines), and mentioned Miletich (et.al.) - I think those guys are more focussed on training athletes for competition, rather than catering for Joe Bloggs who just wants to learn a bit of self defense.

From what I've heard of Matt Thornton and SBG, they have a more accessible approach, and would more likely match people's perception of a martial arts school, whereas I imagine the atmosphere at Miletich Fighting Systems to be closer to a boxing gym.

Just some rambling thoughts - having never trained at SBG or MFS, I could be way off the mark...

Cheers,

Mike

Lee Mc'pherson
2nd July 2003, 17:08
Thanks but i was actually asking about MIXED MARTIAL ARTS and not ARTISTS sorry my fault.
P.S.
I train in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu and we have a full aray of tecniques from strikes to locks to ground fighting to weapons and we are a Mixed Martial Art because we are based on 9 diferent ryu. And nobody has ever acussed as of not being traditional lol.

Mike Williams
2nd July 2003, 17:53
"MMA" is a term usually used to describe the sport showcased in the UFC, Pride, etc. . Previously that kind of competition was called a number of things (i.e. Vale Tudo, NHB, ultimate fighting, etc.).

MMA became accepted as a term because it described the training methodology, as well as the ranges of skills allowed in competition.

(Plus, as more rules were added, 'No-holds-barred' became inaccurate - as well as conveying the wrong type of image).

Two key things characterise MMA training - an emphasis on sparring fully resisting opponents, and a need to cover all ranges of a fight (from striking/standup to clinch/takedown to ground). The "mixed" part is that many fighters will train at different places (or with different teachers) for each of the ranges.

Of course if the sport of MMA is now being taught as a complete system, it might need to find yet another new name for itself. For now I think enough fighters are still seeking out and training the specialties (e.g. BJJ for the ground game) separately, that the "mixed" still applies.

Cheers,

Mike

hector gomez
2nd July 2003, 19:41
I think the original concept of bruce lee JKD had many of the same principles that we see being described today as MMA.It has always been about taking the best elements out of a proven & effective art and blending it together as your own signature art.

The wheel has already been invented,Nothing is new under the sun,granted,nothing is really new under the sun,as a matter of fact MMA can be considered one of the oldest arts around if you consider that ryu/styles only seperated the arts of fighting for specialization purposes.

Fighting is fighting,especialy for the non sport athlete that is thinknig in terms of self defense and should be aware of all the different position,ranges and different fight situations that he can find himself in,instead of just the one he finds comfort in.


Teaching your whole knowledge to your students should never have to take a back seat.I am sure there are many karate instructors that have had sufficient judo background that have added certain judo elements to their karate class.They must have seen the imortant value as vital when it comes to self defense,so that mixing right there is a form of MMA.

As far as what schools teach MMA under one umbrella to white collar society look around,it is happening all over America and the world ,boy it feels great to go back to the traditions of making the art fighting a whole complete art once again.


Hector Gomez

Goju Man
2nd July 2003, 23:55
I think the original concept of bruce lee JKD had many of the same principles that we see being described today as MMA.It has always been about taking the best elements out of a proven & effective art and blending it together as your own signature art.
This was shown in the begining of Enter the Dragon back in the seventies. JKD in its early days.

Benjamin Peters
5th July 2003, 05:31
A couple of comments I hope we can all absorb:

1. I feel that perhaps my original intention (my post starting thread) has frayed.

2. Martial arts are full of rituals that can potentially destroy the 'thuggery' that many of you suggest, that may be the only attribte that can keep you alive.

3. Having a sense of competition drives you to become better.

4. Martial artists tend to believe that because they are benevolent and have a view of proportional defense/appropriate combat (which is TAUGHT in the dojo), that they believe their opponents on the street immediately feel the same way.

5. (See above) street thugs don't have the same values of martial artists - we CANNOT assume so.

6. Martial arts are ritualized and culturalzed so much that it can reverse what natural ability that can be harnessed and extended on. For instance, the guy down at the local nightclub hasn't had any fight/martial arts training, but is able to capitalize on his natural thuggery to win.

7. Why do we assume that masters of old weren't thugs? Were they just like the guy down at the pub - anything goes to win the fight.

8. Martial arts are so romanticised that people end up believing it - take a look at Fred Ettish and the UFC, and the consequences.

9. What good is old style martial arts in modern self defense? It's ritual and hooplah detract from what may be required to help one defend one's life or family.

joe yang
5th July 2003, 09:24
I don't understand how the ritual/cultural aspects of traditional martial arts can inhibit or restrict your ablility. If you think there is a problem, fix it. I'm Moo Duk Kwan TKD all the way, 23 years. I'm still here, after 15 years as an LEO. TKD drives all my use of force training, hand gun, less-than-lethal, CQC, whatever.