Things can be learned, that can't be taught!

[Tripitaka of AA]

A riddle, or it sounds like one. This cropped up in a conversation on the Shorinji Kempo forum. Would anyone care to propose a solution?
All replies, prepare to be dissected by Kimpatsu, so make it as watertight as possible :)




Originally posted by sean dixie


[snip].... some things just cannot be taught, only learned.




Originally posted by Kimpatsu

Illogical. Give me one example of something that cannot be taught, only learned?

[Kimpatsu]

Oh, yeah. Bring it on.

[Sapporo Ichiban]

Since a glove's been thrown . . .

Not sure if this counts (didn't read the thread the quote was pulled from) but how about learning anything internal? Could range from experiencing emotions, etc. or--more appropriately for this type of forum--personal training limits? For those who lift weights, you know that there is a certain amount of recovery time needed between lifting sessions. Someone could teach you something like how to best split various muscle groups between different days but they wouldn't be able to teach you how much time YOU need to rest.

Or for those aerobically inclined, how about how far you can push yourself before you really should stop? Some people don't know until they start vomitting. Sometimes I still don't know I'm getting heat exhaustion until I lose muscle control, get reduced vision, and get really sleepy. Those are some things that come to mind that no one can really teach you and you just have to pick up on your own through trial and error. No?

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Sapporo Ichiban
Since a glove's been thrown . . .
Always one to run the gauntlet... ;)

Originally posted by Sapporo Ichiban
Not sure if this counts (didn't read the thread the quote was pulled from) but how about learning anything internal? Could range from experiencing emotions, etc. or--more appropriately for this type of forum--personal training limits? For those who lift weights, you know that there is a certain amount of recovery time needed between lifting sessions. Someone could teach you something like how to best split various muscle groups between different days but they wouldn't be able to teach you how much time YOU need to rest.
But then your teacher is experience, either direct (internal emotions require external stimuli) or applied (you only know how many days recovery you personally require based on prior experience). Either way, the external world is your teacher. Your mind does not live in sensory isolation.

Originally posted by Sapporo Ichiban
Or for those aerobically inclined, how about how far you can push yourself before you really should stop? Some people don't know until they start vomitting. Sometimes I still don't know I'm getting heat exhaustion until I lose muscle control, get reduced vision, and get really sleepy. Those are some things that come to mind that no one can really teach you and you just have to pick up on your own through trial and error. No?
No. Trial and error is teaching you. (Reread the thread title; it doesn't say that the teacher has to be human.)

[Shitoryu Dude]

I think that you are missing the point and taking it bit too literally.

My own example would be that immortality/invulnerability. For a lot of people it seems to take a first-hand experience before they realize they will not be 21 forever and that they can be hurt.

:beer:

[Kimpatsu]

So they learn by experience, right, Harvey? In other words, experience is their teacher.

[A. M. Jauregui]

Here is my guess.

Death?

It seems that it can only be learned and known by those that have died. Unless there is something that I have been missing out on ghosts do not teach. :)

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by A.M. Jauregui
Here is my guess.
Death?
It seems that it can only be learned and known by those that have died. Unless there is something that I have been missing out on ghosts do not teach. :)
More to the point, Ana, ghosts do not exist. Nothing can be learned from your own death, because once you're dead, you can't think any more. You know nothing. You feel nothing. All brain activity has ceased.
Yours morbidly,

[drDalek]

If you narrow the scope of the assertion that "there are things that cannot be taught only learned" to mean taught by a fellow human being it starts to make sense.

There are questions to which only personal experience can provide the answer.

I have an idea that might have been the original meaning of the above mentioned statement.

This also leads on to an entire line of follow up questions. If you can only learn certain things from your fellow humans, can we realy learn from someone else's mistakes? For large vulgar mistakes like farting in polite company or breaking the law sure, but subtle things like correct martial art technique and interpersonal communication skills (reading body language and reacting appropriately)?

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by drDalek
If you narrow the scope of the assertion that "there are things that cannot be taught only learned" to mean taught by a fellow human being it starts to make sense.
But that's not what the question asks. It asks only can you learn without being taught? It doesn't limit the teacher, be that teacher experience, empiricism, or other.
Now go exterminate something. :D

[Tripitaka of AA]

Hhmmmm, I see that I have inadvertently allowed Kimpatsu the freedom to define the parameters of the question (darn, I should have seen that coming). I should perhaps have made a more detailed introduction.

I didn't transfer the entire thread across from the Shorinji Kempo forum as it had a fair amount of parochial thread drift (we talked about other things that were not relevant outside Shorinji Kempo). The original thread is titled "Teachers" if anyone is interested.

Humans were expected to be involved in the original meaning of the quote.

[kage110]

The accepted connotations of the word 'teach' involves the transferral of knowledge of knowledge from one person to another person. If a reference is made to people being 'taught' by experience what is actually meant is that they 'learned' from their experience. The word 'teach' implies the involvement of a 'teacher' which is defined as 'someone who teaches'.

[Tripitaka of AA]

So sometimes it is necessary for the Teacher, to step back and allow the sudent to discover something for themselves. Like the right way to do a breakfall, or how hard to push yourself, or how to write music. But in these instances the “teaching” is still there, for the lesson is in how to listen to yourself. How to analyse your body’s responses, how to exercise impartiality. The Teacher has taught the student how to learn from experience.

I feel a need for a good scholarly description of “Su Ha Ri”. Part of which is an explanation of the process that begins with direct teaching and correction, progressing onto self-development and finally independent growth.


The riddle of "something that can be learned, which cannot be taught" seems to have been solved by any situation where personal experience is required. This gets a bit sticky when people suggest the "don't knock it 'till you've tried it" scenario. In those cases, we really hope we can learn without needing direct personal experience.

Enough of the Airy-Fairy abstract concepts. How about a practical example to take this to a more forum-relevant zone;

Can you learn Self-Defence?

Can you learn Self-Defence from a Teacher?

Can you learn Self-Defence from a Teacher who has never been attacked?

[kage110]

Can you learn Self-Defence?

Can you learn Self-Defence from a Teacher?

Can you learn Self-Defence from a Teacher who has never been attacked?

Define what you mean by "self-defence":D

But aside from that my answer to the above questions would be:

(a) Yes, (b) in part, and (c) possibly!

[PwarYuex]

Something is never new, it is recycled/renamed/recreated/re-labeled and/or given a new name.
Anything that has been "created" was mearly there before, just not discovered/stimulated or put together in the right manner.
This is true with electricity, for example. And in nature.

You can't simply teach something that you have created. This is because you can't create something completly new. All ideas come from somewhere. You must have some "inspiration" or teaching before you can learn something. Thus, you cannot create new knowledge, or learn something without some kind of teaching.

[Joseph Svinth]

Q: What can be learned, but not taught?

Possible A: Wisdom.

[Shitoryu Dude]

"Wisdom comes with age. Sometimes age comes all by itself."

:beer:

[Tripitaka of AA]

Wisdom and Grey Hair come with Age.

Innocence and Energy go with Youth.

Sometimes Grey Hair comes early, drinks all the beer and then leaves his mate Baldness to hog all the snacks.

Sometimes Youth comes back to taunt Age, sometimes Age tries to date Youth, but without Innocence and Energy the evening can be a little flat.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Tripitaka of AA
Wisdom and Grey Hair come with Age.

Innocence and Energy go with Youth.

Sometimes Grey Hair comes early, drinks all the beer and then leaves his mate Baldness to hog all the snacks.

Sometimes Youth comes back to taunt Age, sometimes Age tries to date Youth, but without Innocence and Energy the evening can be a little flat.
...And sometimes Tony Kehoe runs off with all the beers first... ;)
:toast:

[Tripitaka of AA]

Scallywag! :smash: :nono:

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Tripitaka of AA
Scallywag! :smash: :nono:
Cheers to that, David... :beer: :toast: :beer: :toast: :beer: :toast:

[Tripitaka of AA]

Sorry m8 can't join you in the booze just yet, bit early for me (10:25 am). I'll catch you in the virtual bar later (get the takuan and sembei ready).

[Kimpatsu]

Time difference be damned! Let's get drunk NOW! :beer: :toast: :beer: :toast:

[Tripitaka of AA]

I'm not sure I want DRUNK, but slightly tipsy sounds nice. All those glasses before me.... I'm getting thirsty just looking.... but wait, now it's even earlier, 09:42am. Am I going back in time!?!?

[Kimpatsu]

No, that's just reflux, David. ;) :beer: :toast: