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Bob van Tuyn
30th June 2003, 13:58
Iíve read on another thread something that has always bothered me.
The disrespectful performance of some fighters (usually boxers and UF-guys)

I mean the people who before they go into the ring start insulting each other in magazines, interviews press conferences etc. And when they enter the ring (cage etc.) they donít shake hands or bow, they just want to kill each other. In my eyes this is such a showing of disrespectfulness that I find it hard to respect (aside from there fighting potential) these guys.

If you are superior (fighting wise) let your performance in the ring (cage etc.) show this not youíre mouth.

In kyokushin we go bone to bone hard to hard in tournaments but we are always respectful to each other. Iíve (luckily) never seen in a kyokushin tournament people scream of joy when someone got really hurt. Nor have I heard a fighter say that he was glad that he shut his opponent up by totally KO-ing him.

Is this disrespectful behavior related to the type of MA (like boxing) or to society (People who like the WWF type of performance shouting, insulting etc. but then not as a performance but in real fights)

wimp_lo
30th June 2003, 15:15
That's one of the differences between budo and prizefighting.

There are reasons for the trash-talk:

a) intimidate your opponent
b) pump yourself up
c) reminder that this is NOT a friendly competition
d) promote the event

There are different levels of trash-talk, some of which don't bother me. I do enjoy when a trash-talker has his ass handed to him.

Mike Williams
30th June 2003, 16:16
I agree, I hate trash-talking, and poor losers (and poor winners, they're even worse).

On the other hand - in professional fighting (boxing, MMA, K1 etc.) a lot of it is pre-match hype, and usually has more to do with the promoters/managers than the fighters. After the fighting is done, the only people who carry on with the bickering are (some of) the online forum dwelling fans.

One of the things I like about MMA is the really good level of cameraderie and mutual respect between the fighters - it's much more evident than in boxing, probably because of the relatively small universe it inhabits - opponents are often training partners as well.

On the other hand - nothing beats a good grudge match.

(And FWIW, I've seen hissy fits in every sport I've ever watched, from Judo to Badminton)

Cheers,

Mike

Bob van Tuyn
30th June 2003, 16:17
I also enjoy when a trash-talker is outclassed and goes down but Iím not sure that I agree with your reasons for trash talk.

I donít rely think that people will be intimidated by trash-talk. And there are other ways to get yourself pumped up. And the reason motioned by C is totally wrong.

When you look at Muy Thai boxing and kyokushin fighting these tournaments are not really friendly competitions. Your aim is to KO your opponent and as fast as possible.

But youíll never see a may thai boxer talking trash about the mother of his opponent (your mother is a f..ck.ng ÖÖ..). The same goes for kyokushin and K1 kickboxing. These fighters always respect each other in the ring and out the ring.

The only reason I can think of to trash-talk is to get your opponent angry and that can work to your advantage.

But Iím still convinced that we could do without.
:nono:

Kevin73
30th June 2003, 17:38
I think they (big MMA comps like pride and ufc) are going the way of the WWE and trying to really hype up the fights with all the smack talk and stuff to get the "fans" involved.

spartanmachine
30th June 2003, 17:44
Ok I must admit I am somewhat guilty of this myself. Bear in mind that I'm talking about some time ago here. But in Muay Thai and straight Kickboxing competitions that I've been in as well as that I've been cornering in, I've been guilty of yelling obsenities or refering to my fighters opponent as motherf*#!er, etc... During the match and in between rounds. Now, Honestly it was done during the fight as a way to maybe anger my opponent and throw him off his game as well as to pump up the fighter whose corner I was in. Afterwards I had absolutely no ill will against the opponents, if anything I usually had a mountain of respect for them. Not saying this is right and at least one time, I don't think that the opponent of a fighter I was in the corner of "got it". We went to shake his hand after the fight and he didn't even want to look at me. I had a lot of respect for this person however because he had just fought a great fight.

wimp_lo
30th June 2003, 18:39
Hi Bob,

C could be reworded or thrown in with B

Maybe a better way of putting it would be "to de-humanize" your opponent so you don't lose your edge - so that you are able to throw punches that are capable of causing concussion, or worse. Its hard to deliver a beating to someone you like, or respect, or pity. Perhaps the trash-talking and reciprocation is enough to get a fighter going - at least until he gets hit a few times :)

Cody
30th June 2003, 18:58
I think the UFC guys fight for different reasons. Trash-talking is just part of the game. One of the major factor of the game is indeed media and promotion. They want to catch people's interest. By setting up tension and making outrageous statements, they attract audiances, which is exactly what their sponsers want.

Kyokushin is not professional gamers. Most karate fighters don't fight for money.

My karate shihan is very good friend of the local kyokushin dojo, I have a lot of respect for the Vancouer dojo owner, Sensei Nakamura. Sensei Nakamura and Shihan Shiozaki had both in the past discuss this observation (the difference between sport fighters and karate, trash talk vs respect...) The thing is, both of these gentlemen merely pointed out the difference; they don't make statements like "they make me sick", "they aren't as worthy as karate" etc.

Everybody fight and train for their own reasons and purposes. I am a firm believer that every aspect of training has its value. I cross train in many different places, some schools I train at, bowing to my partner is punishable; learning to trash talk to psychologically intimidate the opponent is part of the curriculum. I thinik it's good, it prepares me for the street when people aren't always respectful. In karate, of course we are alwasy respectful, we bow, we say osu, we shake hands... to me, that teaches me control. To flick into fighting mode and civil mode readily.

I see nothing wrong with UFC fighters trash talking, it's part of the game. On the other hand, I will be most disappointed if seniors in my traditional dojos start telling me UFC fighters make them sick. To me, that's just plain snotty disrespectful to other practice, and not in tune with spirits of karate.

Just my two cents.

-Cody

Bob van Tuyn
30th June 2003, 19:21
Youíre maybe right at this point. But I still believe that you can pump yourself up internal. So youíll think I have to ďkillĒ my opponent and then win your fight. And when youíve won youíll put away youíre killer instinct and shake hands with youíre opponent (who you never really wanted to kill !!!!!!!!).

The thing is that when you say thinks openly like Iím gonna kill you, it will gives a wrong vibe. Then people donít want to see the fight but they just want to see 2 guys killing each other. Then fighting isnít an art anymore.

The thing is that you (as a fighter) are a ďprofessionalĒ. Youíre not just a guy who knows how to give and take a punch.

But youíre right to say that people can more easily hurt someone that they donít like or respect.

But I think that fighters know why the are in the ring and that they donít need dirt throwing to get them pumped up.

But thatís just my thought

:idea:

WJ55
30th June 2003, 19:24
As was stated earlier in this thread, organizations such as UFC and PRIDE are selling products. This is the same type of morbid curiosity that draws people to watch these types of things.

In the earlier MMA thread that I posted to a couple of days ago, I cited an example of Mike Tyson and Lennox Lewis. People love to watch a guy like Tyson because they want to see what he'll do next. Will he snap again? Hurt somebody severely? Get arrested at the hotel the night before? People want answers to these questions, so that is a large reason why they are interested.

I'm not saying that I agree with this type of promotion, but MMA org's have come to realize that if they are going to take the next step up, they need to "spice up" their products a little more, in order to give both "casual" and "hardcore" fans alike a reason to watch.

Bob van Tuyn
30th June 2003, 19:43
I understand the reasoning from the big organisation , bud Iím totally against it as I hope most of you. It is up to the fighters to give the proper picture of a fighter. Itís about years of training and discipline. And not about eating some ones ear of in the ring.

Iím not by the way against full contact sports like valu tudo (donít know if its spelt correctly) as long as they show respect and clean tech.

That's why I respect the Thais and most of the full contact budo Practitioners, because they always show respect for their teachers and fellow practitoners.

icynorth
30th June 2003, 20:26
Regardless of being friendly or not, there should be an element of class to it. It makes you the better man.
I can't stand UFC, bloated mouthpieces for the most part. Biggest of which is Tank Abbott, he turned me from liking it. I do forget who it was that totally handed him his ass. But Abbott when spoken by the ringside about his opponent being a good fighther he had nothing but smack to speak off. Ignorant piece of crap. Unfortunatly that is pretty prevalent.
On the other hand I don't tourney fight so I am speaking inexperienced, just an opinion.

Shitoryu Dude
30th June 2003, 20:49
I've always attributed trash talking to pure hype and showmanship, thus part of the entertainment aspect of fighting. Since that makes it wrestling or something associated with that criminal Don King I just chalked it up to idiocy.

Any tournament I have ever participated in or attended would have tossed you out in a second for doing it. I don't even think it occured to us to do so - as much as I was trying to lay out these guys in the ring, half of them I hung out with later on as buddies, even the ones from other dojos. We had very few examples of such poor sportmanship, and we typically dealt with them in the ring with a bit of excessive force. I remember one in particular who had a hard time understanding kumite rules took a mae geri to the guts so hard it landed her outside the ring by several feet.

:beer:

spartanmachine
30th June 2003, 21:16
Any tournament I have ever participated in or attended would have tossed you out in a second for doing it. I don't even think it occured to us to do so - as much as I was trying to lay out these guys in the ring, half of them I hung out with later on as buddies, even the ones from other dojos.

And this is a great attitude to have at MA tournaments. Unfortunately that isn't usually the case. I once attended a Jujitsu tournament where the attitudes of many of the competitiors were anything but honorable. Some even went as far as to blatantly break rules to try and win which I found really sad.
There should be a difference in Boxing, UFC style events and MA Competitions, obviously with so much money behind Boxing hype will not be far away, but in MA competitions the object should really be to improve one skills and self. I wonder how often is that the case?

Bob van Tuyn
1st July 2003, 11:41
Thanks you all for your thoughts,

Iím still convinced that trash talking is downgrading any MA it doesnít matter if itís a traditional MA or a modern one. Like I stated before there are plenty of UFC fighters that can show the respect to their sport and their fellow fighters by not participating in mud throwing.

Statements like ďtrash-talking is just part of the gameĒ really saddens me because that would mean that we as a society have already condoned it. There are many other ways to psyche your opponent out. And I donít see why trash talking prepares you for street fights (as if it takes training to do it???)

And cody I never said that ďUFC fighters make them sickĒ youíve misread or not read me thread thoroughly. I only stated that it usually are boxers or UFC guys that do trash talk and those guys (in other words fighters in general that trash talk) make me sick.

And it is very in tune with the karate spirit or for that any other budo sport to stand against trash talking. Because talking trash about your opponent shows bad character and a lack of respect and goes against all budo spirit.

So I hope that every body will try to put a stop to trash talk in their dojo or sport.
:o

Mike Williams
1st July 2003, 11:50
All this talk of "UFC fighters" talking trash - I just don't see it. There are one or two exceptions (Tank Abbott, or Royce after the Yoshida fight), but by and large I see more mutual respect shown in the UFC & Pride than in the vast majority of other professional sporting events I have watched.

I want names and examples of UFC competitors talking smack about their opponents, especially post-fight. It really doesn't happen that often.

Do not judge the fighters by the antics of their online fan-base (or by their marketing machines either).

Cheers,

Mike

Martin Adil-Smi
1st July 2003, 12:09
Originally posted by Bob van Tuyn
Iím still convinced that trash talking is downgrading any MA it doesnít matter if itís a traditional MA or a modern one.

Statements like ďtrash-talking is just part of the gameĒ really saddens me because that would mean that we as a society have already condoned it. There are many other ways to psyche your opponent out. And I donít see why trash talking prepares you for street fights (as if it takes training to do it???)



I must say that I agree with everything Bob has said. The point that I would make is that certainly things like WWF is more of a perfomance, a show, and hence not bound by the same rules as MA as whole.

Having said that, when martial artists talk badly about each other or other schools, it does sadden me. It is unnecessary baiting, and does nothing to unify organisations or movement. Indeed, certainly in the publics' eyes, it puts them off because they see all this unnecessary aggression.

Certainly, in the schools where I am student a great deal of emphasis is placed on respect. I sat a grading on Saturday, and even though I had 7 shades kicked out me at the end there were rei's and big hugs all round. That is respect. That is camarderie.

I remember when Mike Tyson said of a defeated opponent that he was trying to break his nose and then bury it in his brain... man, I was disgusted. He should have been banned for life there and then.

There really is no place for disrespect in MA, in whatever form,

Bob van Tuyn
1st July 2003, 12:20
All right before this gets out of hand I want to stop this from being about UFC fighters. When I started this thread I used ultimate fighting and boxing as an example because thatís where Iíve lately seen it happen (mud throwing). I didnít want to isolate a specific martial art and ďattackĒ it. If someone got that idea it was not my intension. Like I said before I respect UFC fighter, boxers, K1 fighters, shoot fighters, TKD practitioners, kick boxers etc. etc. Because they all accomplished something trough rigours training and discipline.

The thing I disprove of is trash talking by any fighter of any style, because in my opinion this really drags down MA. If you as a fighter act bad this does reflect on your fighting style, especially when you do this on national T.V. And I think that fighters should realise this and show proper respect for their opponents and their own fighting style.

Martin Adil-Smi
1st July 2003, 12:22
Originally posted by Bob van Tuyn
If you as a fighter act bad this does reflect on your fighting style, especially when you do this on national T.V.

Reminds me of the first Karate Kid movie

Bob van Tuyn
1st July 2003, 12:43
Well we could always ask Mr. miyagi to give his opinion this topic:D

MarkF
1st July 2003, 22:14
I seem to recall the entire Gracie family hijacking a fight show in which their boy lost (Royce), including Helio Gracie, come back to the ring later in the show and grab the Mic to tell the world how they wuz robbed. Yep, that's sportsmanship.


Mark

spartanmachine
2nd July 2003, 05:10
If it's the fight that I'm thinking of, Royce WAS robbed and badly. When Royce lost to Sakuraba he didn't complain one bit , neither did Renzo in his loss to Sak and Dan Henderson.

Mike Williams
2nd July 2003, 09:10
The Gracies in general are not the most sporting losers or gracious winners, it's true.

If it's the Yoshida fight we're talking about, Royce was robbed. On the other hand, a decision is a decision. I hate whining and bitching after the event a lot more than I hate pre-match trash-talking.

Anyway, for every Gracie, there are loads of guys like Randy Couture, or Jens Pulver or Carlos Newton who are great ambassadors for the sport.

Cheers,

Mike

Martin Adil-Smi
8th July 2003, 22:02
I'm currently reading the translated edition of "Bushido for beginners" at the moment, and certainly there appears to a sharp divide between the ethos of an "art" and a "sport".

But then again, I would not have instinctively said that the Gracies practiced a sport. Maybe I'm just being naive.

Marc Renouf
9th July 2003, 16:04
I too enjoy it when a smarmy trash-talker gets a come-uppance. Heard anything from "Prince" Naseem Hamed lately? Didn't think so. ;)