Karate men call It devastating!

[hector gomez]

A good friend just sent me this 1968 copy of black belt magazine,check out the lower right hand corner.It Makes me realize that all of those debates we get into on this forum were around even 35 years ago.

Hector Gomez

PS:Thank you,Antonio Bustillo

[Shitoryu Dude]

And they are pretty much on the same level of discussion as well.

You do your thing, I'll do mine. In the end we're both happy.

:beer:

[CEB]

You know in the movie The Fighting Blacks Kings, The Muay Thai Boxer from Thailand that fought in the tournament. He wore a white suit and a black belt and he pretty much looked like everybody else to me, except I never saw him get winded.

[Goju Man]

. He wore a white suit and a black belt and he pretty much looked like everybody else to me, except I never saw him get winded.
But he lost. Can anyone guess what Hectors' new toy is?:D

[hectokan]

By Lloyd williamsen


Judo is rapidly being transformed from a martial art to a sport following a path set hundreds of years ago by sumo.karate and shorinji kempo also seem to be following this modern day tendency in which the emphasis is more on tournament competition than on the martial art or self defense aspects.With the door thus opened,it won't be too long before aikido,kendo,naginata,kyudo,and others join the parade.


And now something new has entered the scene-a unique hybrid martial art-sport combining the traditional skills of thai kickboxing with the familiar techniques of judo,karate and shorinji kenpo.actually,
there is nothing new about it except the interesting way in which all the diverse elements have been harmoniously combined.

[CEB]

Originally posted by Goju Man

But he lost. ....

Oh yeah he did didn't he. Well that proves it then, Karate is better.

[RobertW]

Do you guys think that Itosu Matsumura Tawada etc. and thier contemporaries had conversations about what techniques worked better than others? Or about what delivery system was best?
I think this debate stretches further back even than that. I personally belive that this kind of argument/debate has been around as long as the martial arts themselves!

[hectokan]

Robert W,

I think you are right.

I also think that the little thai guy in the movie"fighting black kings" was also outweighed by more than 60lbs and was not even highly ranked among the thaiboxing community,regardless he held his own very well.


If I remember correctly at the beginning of the kickboxing movement in Japan,a Japaneese promoter by the name of noguchi was always bringing in washed up fighters from thailand and presenting them as champions to the japaneese public.

Things like this helped stir up false interpretations of the quality of Muaythai and at the same time add fuel to the fire in the Thailand(muaythai)V.S Japan(karate)debates.

The thai people have never forgotten that intial era of the wealthy japaneese kickboxing promoters doing the dirty deed.Even today there is still evidence of that resentment towards the major japaneese production known thru out the world as K1,which still refuses to ackowledge any Thaiboxing connection with it's promotion, when it is evident that the majority of their practicioners practice and train in muaythai.


Hector Gomez

[luar]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by hectokan
Judo is rapidly being transformed from a martial art to a sport following a path set hundreds of years ago by sumo.karate and shorinji kempo also seem to be following this modern day tendency in which the emphasis is more on tournament competition than on the martial art or self defense aspects.With the door thus opened,it won't be too long before aikido,kendo,naginata,kyudo,and others join the parade.[QUOTE]

Judo was designed to be a sport. Shorinji Kempo was never a sport.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by hectokan
Judo is rapidly being transformed from a martial art to a sport following a path set hundreds of years ago by sumo.karate and shorinji kempo also seem to be following this modern day tendency in which the emphasis is more on tournament competition than on the martial art or self defense aspects.
This is nonsense. Shorinji Kempo is not, never has been, and never will be a sport. It is budo, designed for self-development and self-enhancement. Where on earth did you get the idea that Shorinji Kempo was obsessed with tournaments and competition?

Originally posted by hectokan
And now something new has entered the scene-a unique hybrid martial art-sport combining the traditional skills of thai kickboxing with the familiar techniques of judo,karate and shorinji kenpo.
Shorinji Kempo is different from the other arts you cite here (judo and karate), and the only way to have a sufficient inside knowledge of Shorinji Kempo techniques is to be a Shorinji Kenshi, so I very much doubt that there's any Shorinji Kempo involved in this hybrid. Who claims to have sufficient knowledge of Shorinji Kempo that they can incorporate it into a hybrid in this fashion?
TIA,

[MarkF]

Judo was designed to be a sport.

No, Judo was designed to be safe.

There is a difference.


Mark

[Steve Williams]

Originally posted by hectokan
By Lloyd williamsen


Judo is rapidly being transformed from a martial art to a sport following a path set hundreds of years ago by sumo.karate and shorinji kempo also seem to be following this modern day tendency in which the emphasis is more on tournament competition than on the martial art or self defense aspects.With the door thus opened,it won't be too long before aikido,kendo,naginata,kyudo,and others join the parade.


And now something new has entered the scene-a unique hybrid martial art-sport combining the traditional skills of thai kickboxing with the familiar techniques of judo,karate and shorinji kenpo.actually,
there is nothing new about it except the interesting way in which all the diverse elements have been harmoniously combined.

OK, just a little perspective.......
Because the "Shorinji Kempo guys" are talking about it.....

Re-read the above quote.

Now where does it say that Shorinji Kempo is a sport?

The actual words are karate and shorinji kempo also seem to be following this modern day tendency in which the emphasis is more on tournament competition than on the martial art or self defense aspects
So this is one persons opinion, albeit an incorrect opinion.....
Some Karate styles are "sport Karate", but the traditional styles (Shotokan, Wado-ryu, etc..) are not, and have no claims to be a "sport".
Also Shorinji Kempo has no claims to be a sport.

As for the use of Shorinji Kempo techniques...... yes it can be said that some of the techniques used in such "sport MA" looks similar to Shorinji technique..... but then some shorinji techniques do look like some Aikido technique.......
I am not narrow-minded enough to believe that we (Shorinji) have the monopoly on certain techniques.

It was once said to me (by a shorinji kempo instructor) that there are only a finite number of ways to throw someone...... so there will be some similarities.

It is the way that certain techniques are put together that gives each style its uniqueness..... and of course any underlying philosophy also adds to the differences.

[Mike Williams]

Guys, re-read the post - it was a quote taken from an old article in Black Belt magazine. Nobody on this forum is making any kind of claims about Shorinji Kempo.

As Mark pointed out, the article was just as inaccurate in its claims about Judo.

Cheers,

Mike

[Tripitaka of AA]

Hello. Nice place you have here.

Sorry to disturb. Unfortunately I have a previous engagement so I can't stay, but I've brought a bottle, please accept my gift and drink in good health.

Perhaps we can have a chat in the Lounge some day. In the meantime, thank you for welcoming me into your home forum. I shan't outstay my welcome. Thank you, good night.

:nw: :smilejapa :nw:

[Mike Williams]

Hi David,

I'm a gatecrasher here myself - just a grubby grappler hanging out with all these flying fists and feet.

:D

Cheers,

Mike

[hectokan]

My Friends,I am just relaying an article written back in 1968 by Lloyd williamsen,as you will see there are some other inacuracies that I don't agree with but it is still a very interesting story.


Artricle cont...

Even the name,kickboxing has been borrowed from the well known Thai sport.It has also adopted the six ounce gloves used by the Thai fighters,who use their hands as in regular boxing and kick with upper instep,heel,shin and knee.The new-style kickboxer employ the same foot techniques but chop with their gloved hands as in karate and use throwing tactics as in judo.At the same time,they are permitted to strike foward and backward with the elbow joint.

TREMENDOUS POPULARITY
Since it originated about five years ago,kickboxing has been swept up in a tremendous wave of popularity.It started in tokyo,quickly spread south to osaka and kyoto and soon found new fans in every corner of the country.before long,sports enthusiast from Thailand,korea and the Phillippines joined the swelling throng of participants and spectators.today,Japanese kickboxers number more than 1500,with about half that many in the Philippines training in the new martial art sport.

Tokyos television stations have been featuring kickboxing matches for the past eight years,and now the matches are beamed at the nations growing audience every week.Leading boxers average about a match a month.The champions of the various weight divisions enjoy their own fan clubs.

An international kickboxing tournament was held on July 3,with 20 entrants participating from Thailand and the philippines as well as Japan.A similar tourney was held three weeks later and this october the annual world kickboxing Tournament will be staged in Tokyo.Fighters from the US,West Germany,Canada,Thailand,South korea and the Phillipines will soon be heading Japanward to contest for the coveted titles.


This all started when the Thai-kickboxing fans kept pooh-pooh-ing the strength and skills of karatekas.Some enthusiastic young Thais were especially critical of the martial art an never failed to unburden themselves on the subject whenever japanese kickboxing promoter,Osamu Noguchi,visited Bangkok.


Finally,Noguchi swallowed all the caustic comments he could from his Thai detractors.A man of good karate knowledge himslef,Noguchi resolved to make them eat their words.He promptly set plans in motion to match Thaikickboxers with Japanese karateka in a face to face showdown to take the wind out of the Thais sails,and at the same time,to promote the great value of karate training.It was a question of answering their taunts or losing face.


To be continued..........




Hector gomez

[Bustillo, A.]

(Originally posted by Tony kehoe to Hector Gomez)
"This is nonsense. Shorinji Kempo is not, never has been, and never will be a sport. It is budo, designed for self-development and self-enhancement. Where on earth did you get the idea that Shorinji Kempo was obsessed with tournaments and competition"

--------------------------------------------------------

Tony kehoe,'

Where on earth were you reading?
No need for you to get upset. No one on this thread has said one word about shorinji kempo. You guys are making a big deal about this thread on your shorinji forum for no reason. The 'brief' mention of it is from the article posted.
The article was introduced here, on the karate forum, as a special piece of interest because the article describes the beginning of karate and vs kickboxers matches.

[Iron Chef]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu

This is nonsense. Shorinji Kempo is not, never has been, and never will be a sport. It is budo, designed for self-development and self-enhancement. .....


Good Thing. :laugh:

[MarkF]

My Friends,I am just relaying an article written back in 1968 by Lloyd williamsen,as you will see there are some other inacuracies that I don't agree with but it is still a very interesting story.

Hectokan (???)

It's a conditioned reflex, just like you learn when drilling/uchikomi.


Mark

[hectokan]

Mark,
I just like the way it sounds(just having fun)and "yes" you nailed it, no Kata required.


Tony kehoe,

I would be honored that someone mentioned Shorinji Kenpo in the same sentence with a live resistive combat sport.


Article by Lloyd Williamsen Cont...

Some Willing Challengers

After searching about,he found some willing challengers and a match was arranged for Feburary 12,1963.Both Japan and Thailand were to put up a three-man team.The Thai boxers were to use their own kicking and punching tactics,while the Japanese were to stick to their own traditional style,The "only"compromise for the karateka was being forced to fight with boxing gloves!


In the opening match ,Japanese hopes began to sink when a yodan karateka named kurosaki was sent against Rabi Dechashi. The karate man lost.The second bout saw nidan Fujiwara,after four round of mayhem,kayo an islamic named Howfai Loukwantang.Then Japanese nidan Nakamura opposed the Chinese,Tan Charan.It was all over in a few short minutes,as Nakamura kayoed the Chinaman before the end of the first round.

By the time the satisfied crowd edged its way toward the exist,the score stood at 2-1 in favor of the Japanese,The karate men,Noguchi thought had made a credible showing,even though the opposition had not represented Thailand's strongest.He also noticed the crowd followed the bouts with great excitement.



In 1966,the Japan kick boxing association organized and agreed that the players would wear six ounce gloves,ankle supports,sport trunks,joint wraps,a mouthpiece and a cup.
The weight divisions would be:Lightweight-124lbs and below,Middleweight-124lbs to 149lbs,Heavyweight-149lbs and above,and open weight.Victories could be won by decision,a Tko,a KO,an opponent's foul,or an opponent's failure to appear.

The following tactics were forbidden:thumbing the eyes,biting,attacking the groin area,attacking a downed opponent,choking,or twisting the arm or leg joints.

but contestants could attack from the front,side or rear;jump and kick;use a hand chop,a jab,hook,uppercut or backhand as well as a foward or reverse;thrust and head butting;a throwing trick from Judo,Sumo or Wrestling.

The use of the leg is quite different from karate leg techniques.Stress is on striking with the knee,inner side of the shin,the heel and upper instep.

Throws ressemble judo's
osotogari,haraigoshi,seoinage,ukigoshi,ouchigari and ashibarai.In one contest,the Japanese fighter slammed the Thai antagonist down several times with hard waist throws.Then when the wind was sufficiently knocked out of the Thai to the point where he was unable to defend himself,the Japanese rocked him into the land of nod.

In Korea,joint locks and choking were allowed before they modified their rules at Noguchi's invitation to join the kickboxing association.
With so many offensive moves possible,the variety of attacking styles expanded.As a result,spectator interest soared,sending kickboxing to the top of the popularity chart ratings of Tv sport shows.According to a recent Tokyo newspaper poll,kickboxing is now No 1 in popularity among sports programs,followed by professional boxing and wrestling.


To be Continued.............





PS:Sensei Nakamura own account of the three bouts in thailand can be read in his book"The human face of karate"My life,My karate-do.

[Goju Man]

My Friends,I am just relaying an article written back in 1968 by Lloyd williamsen,as you will see there are some other inacuracies that I don't agree with but it is still a very interesting story.
Not that you are biased in any way, right?

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by hectokan
Tony kehoe,
I would be honored that someone mentioned Shorinji Kenpo in the same sentence with a live resistive combat sport.

But we Shorinji kenshi are not. Calling us a sport flies in the face of all that we believe.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Iron Chef
Good Thing. :laugh:
Isn't it just.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Bustillo, A.
Tony kehoe,'
Where on earth were you reading?
Here:

karate and shorinji kempo also seem to be following this modern day tendency in which the emphasis is more on tournament competition

Originally posted by Bustillo, A.
No need for you to get upset.
Not so much upset as burning with the need to correct this gross misconception.

Originally posted by Bustillo, A.
No one on this thread has said one word about shorinji kempo. You guys are making a big deal about this thread on your shorinji forum for no reason. The 'brief' mention of it is from the article posted.
It is a big deal. If Shorinji Kempo is so greatly misunderstood, we will won't attract the kind of people who are interested in what we have to offer really. That's why every time we see Shorinji Kempo misrepresented, we need to correct the misrepresentation and misapprehension ASAP.

Originally posted by Bustillo, A.
The article was introduced here, on the karate forum, as a special piece of interest because the article describes the beginning of karate and vs kickboxers matches.
Then why does it mention Shorinji Kempo?

[Iron Chef]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu

But we Shorinji kenshi are not. Calling us a sport flies in the face of all that we believe.

Hi Tony,

Will you be competing at the All-Japan Shorinji Kempo Tai Kai in November? Sounds like a pretty cool competition event? Have a good weekend.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Iron Chef
Hi Tony,
Will you be competing at the All-Japan Shorinji Kempo Tai Kai in November? Sounds like a pretty cool competition event? Have a good weekend.
This statement deonstrates your complete lack of understanding of Shorinji Kempo. It is not a tournament; it is a taikai. The emphasis in embu is on cooperation, not competition.
Empty your cup and I'll explain what Shorinji Kempo is really all about, but first you have to want to know, rather than trying to demonstrate you understand Shorinji Kempo better than I do (which is clearly an impossibility).

[Gene Williams]

Ed, I think Shorinji kempo is sort of like the Shriners doing a martial art:D For someone who doesn't like religion, Tony is sure quick to be an apologist for Shorinji Kempo. Hey, Tony, we stay off the Shorinji Kempo thread. No one was attacking your art. Don't be so reactionary. Gene

[Goju Man]

Empty your cup and I'll explain what Shorinji Kempo is really all about, but first you have to want to know, rather than trying to demonstrate you understand Shorinji Kempo better than I do (which is clearly an impossibility).
I think the first thing you should understand is that an article published in Black Belt magazine in 1968 is what is being discussed here. If you don't agree with the authors comments, you should pm Hector as to give you his info. from the article, find him through BB magazine and burn up his e-mail with it, or better yet, ask him to empty his cup. The article is not on Shorinji Kempo, it's about kickboxing.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Gene Williams
Ed, I think Shorinji kempo is sort of like the Shriners doing a martial art:D For someone who doesn't like religion, Tony is sure quick to be an apologist for Shorinji Kempo. Hey, Tony, we stay off the Shorinji Kempo thread. No one was attacking your art. Don't be so reactionary. Gene
Shorinji Kempo is not a religion, Gene; it's a philosophy. Ask yourself this: knowing as you do that I'm opposed to all forms of organised superstition, how could I be involved with Shorinji Kempo if it, too, were a religion? Answer: I couldn't. Ergo, Shorinji Kempo is not a religion. And Iron Chef was very definitely attacking our out--from a position of ignorance, no less. Why do you think I'm so upset?

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Goju Man
I think the first thing you should understand is that an article published in Black Belt magazine in 1968 is what is being discussed here. If you don't agree with the authors comments, you should pm Hector as to give you his info. from the article, find him through BB magazine and burn up his e-mail with it, or better yet, ask him to empty his cup. The article is not on Shorinji Kempo, it's about kickboxing.
But the article mentions Shorinji Kempo, albeit briefly, and what it says about Shorinji Kempo is 100% wrong. If people wrote such blatant rubbish about Goju-ryu, Manny, wouldn't you be upset? And wouldn't you try to correct any misapprehensions?

[Gene Williams]

Anything can be pursued, and defended, with religious fervor...even atheism, and you border on that type of zealotry;) You study a different martial art, no better nor worse in itself than any other organized martial art. It is commendable that you love it and believe it to be the best, we all feel that way about our's, too. You seem to be a little thin skinned about this one, that's all. Gene

[hectokan]

I think Shorinji kempo would make an excellent ring name for a fighter.:kiss:

[Gene Williams]

Hectokan sounds like one of those geometric figures we had to fool with in math:D Definition: "Hectokan. A many sided figure which, if not measured properly, will throw your ass on the ground and beat you with your slide rule" (or calculator):D Gene

[doryoku]

Grandmaster Ernie Reynolds 10th degree blackbelt in Shorinji Kempo, has a large following in Florida and Tennessee.Does anyone have any info on him or his organization. He also has a 7th degree blackbelt in Judo and trains kickboxers. Great thread. Thanks.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by doryoku
Grandmaster Ernie Reynolds 10th degree blackbelt in Shorinji Kempo, has a large following in Florida and Tennessee.Does anyone have any info on him or his organization. He also has a 7th degree blackbelt in Judo and trains kickboxers. Great thread. Thanks.
This is complete rubbish. Ther are no 10th dans in Shorinji Kempo, and certainly not any gaijin 10th dans. If the man told you that himself, he's lying. Do you have any way I can contact him directly for independent verification, and that you didn't misunderstand?
TIA,

[doryoku]

Tony, he is the founder of the Black Dragon Association. He said he trained under DO SHIN SO Sensei, the founder of Shorinji Kempo(Shaolin Fist Law/Way). He also has high ranks in Ju-Jitsu, Judo, Kendo, Iaido and Ninjutsu. He has relocated to Tennessee recently. Tony, he told one of my students that after you reach 4th dan in Shorinji Kempo you are ordained as a Buddhist priest?

[Kimpatsu]

This is all rubbish. No, you do not automatically become ordained as a Buddhist priest. He may have trained under Kaiso, but he certainly didn't obtain 10th dan. I will call hombu tomorrow and ask if they have any record of this man training. But at least half of what you've posted about him are lies--and that's definite.

[Richard Horrowi]

Jose is correct, in that Ernie Reynolds states he is a 10th Dan in Shorinji Kempo. Didn't he also practice Sumo? There was a thread on him at one time.


Richard Horrowitz

[Kimpatsu]

He may say that, Richard, but it isn't true. I'll ask hombu tomorrow if they know who this pretender is.
Oh, and only Japanese nationals are allowed to do sumo, which is viewed not as a sport, but as a religion to entertain the Shinto gods. That's why sumo wrestlers born outside Japan have to take Japanese nationality to wrestle.

[Richard Horrowi]

Tony,

Relax, my bad, the Sumo was an inside joke for anyone who has seen Mr. Reynolds. Hubba Hubba.

Richard Horrowitz

[Bustillo, A.]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu

Then why does it mention Shorinji Kempo?

It is an article from a BLACK BELT MAGAZINE, year, NINETEEN SIXTY-EIGHT...we don't know why the author of the NINETEEN SIXTY-EIGHT article chose to include it.

One can understand trying to correct misconception, and I agree that you should do so. However, you directed your comments to the wrong people. --In particular you flew a bit off the handle when you directed your cooments to Hector. Hector merely introduced the NINETEEN SIXTY-EIGHT article. And , several kenshis were going crazy on your forum, thread, 'Sport'. -- We, no one on the this forum, had said one word about shorinji kenpo, so it appears there was just a slight misunderstanding.


Re. Mr. Ernie Reynolds and his shorinji kempo, if I remember correctly, he claims rank in the art yet, when he was asked about So Doshin, he replied, "never heard of him."

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Bustillo, A.
Re. Mr. Ernie Reynolds and his shorinji kempo, if I remember correctly, he claims rank in the art yet, when he was asked about So Doshin, he replied, "never heard of him."
I think that says it all.
Remember: Hector posted the article without any correction or caveat, implying that he endorsed the article's contents. And we Shorinji Kenshi are very passionate about our art.

[Bustillo, A.]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu

I think that says it all. ( A. B. -I agree)
Remember: Hector posted the article without any correction or caveat, implying that he endorsed the article's contents. And we Shorinji Kenshi are very passionate about our art.


The being passionate about your art, I can understand.

Hector or someone posting an article, afterwhich correcting, he is under no obligation to do so. You, or someone else noticed an incorrect statement and correcting it, fine. Yet, blame the 'correct' person.

Now, about the article , the beginning of kicboxing in Japan...

[Richard Horrowi]

Mr. Reynolds was at one time an Elvis Presley impersonator, and he would at the drop of a dime perform a number. I remember seeing him at a tournament once wearing his Shorinji Kempo Dogi and he took the microphone to speak about something and someone yelled "do an Elvis song" and old Ernie broke out "Wise men say... Only fools rush in"

Richard Horrowitz

[Kimpatsu]

Why do you say it was a Shorinji Kempo dogi, Richard?

[Richard Horrowi]

Tony, no joke it appeared to be exactly like the pictures I've seen obi included. I mean it's unmistakeable no? It obviously wasn't a Judo Gi or Karate Gi and he does claim Shorinji Kempo legitamate or not.

Richard Horrowitz

[Bustillo, A.]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
Why do you say it was a Shorinji Kempo dogi, Richard?

Probably referring to that Star Treck Dr. Spock Vulcan looking black robe sometimes worn over the white gi.

( don't loose it, just slight humor)

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Bustillo, A.
Probably referring to that Star Treck Dr. Spock Vulcan looking black robe sometimes worn over the white gi.
( don't loose it, just slight humor)
DOGI, Antonio, DOGI!!!!!
The black robe is called a hoi. Black belts wear them on special occasions: demonstrations, end-of-year closing ceremonies, weddings, etc.
BTW, the original Vulcan robe as worn by Spock was white. I've seen it up close in the Star Trek Experience in Las Vegas.
Richard: is that what you mean? He was wearing a hoi, rather than a dogi?
TIA,

[Richard Horrowi]

Yes Tony, but since I'm unfamiliar with the term I generalized it to a Dogi, thanks for the correction.

Richard Horrowitz

[Kimpatsu]

...And here's a pic of me wearing my hoi.

[Richard Horrowi]

So whats the big thick garden hose obi called Tony?:D

[Bustillo, A.]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu

DOGI, Antonio, DOGI!!!!!
The black robe is called a hoi. Black belts wear them on special occasions: demonstrations, end-of-year closing ceremonies, weddings, etc.
TIA,



Just a 'gi' to me.


So, the correct term for the your shorinji kempo black garb is called a 'hoi', that one i didn't know. thanks.

Special ceremonies, interesting...Did you wear it at the star trek conventions?

Seriously, curious about the significance of the different belt worn.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Bustillo, A.
Just a 'gi' to me.
NO! NO! NO! That cannot be. As I have explained ad nauseam on this board, to say "gi" you must have a preceding syllable. Otherwise, the character is read "ki", and is the first syllable of "kimono". The preceding syllable, "judogi", "karate dogi" is what hardens the "k" to a "g". Note also kote nuki, but maki gote. Same principle.

Originally posted by Bustillo, A.
Special ceremonies, interesting...Did you wear it at the star trek conventions?
No, I wore my Star Fleet uniform for that. :D

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Richard Horrowi
So whats the big thick garden hose obi called Tony?:D
You mean my sausages? No, that's just an "obi", or to be specific, "hoi no obi". I don't know of any specialised term for it.

[Richard Horrowi]

Star Fleet uniform, good one Tony!

Richard Horrowitz

[Goju Man]

Wow, I just saw Kwai Chang Cain! I thought the series was cancelled!:D

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Goju Man
Wow, I just saw Kwai Chang Cain! I thought the series was cancelled!:D
Don't you mean Kwai Chang Kehoe?

[Iron Chef]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu

Shorinji Kempo is not a religion, Gene; it's a philosophy. Ask yourself this: knowing as you do that I'm opposed to all forms of organised superstition, how could I be involved with Shorinji Kempo if it, too, were a religion? Answer: I couldn't. Ergo, Shorinji Kempo is not a religion. And Iron Chef was very definitely attacking our out--from a position of ignorance, no less. Why do you think I'm so upset?

It is registered as a religion with the Japanese government not a philosophy. I would considered Confucianism a philosophy. Is Confucianism registered with the Japanese government as a religion?

I wasn't attacking nothing your Taikai sound pretty cool. I even read about all the place winners from last year. Sounds like a lot of fun. Good thing S-K is Budo, designed for self-development and self-enhancement.

[Bustillo, A.]

T. Kehoe wrote

NO! NO! NO! That cannot be. As I have explained ad nuseam on this board, to say "gi" you must have a preceding syllable. Otherwise, the character is read "ki", and is the first syllable of "kimono". The preceding syllable, "judogi", "karate dogi" is what hardens the "k" to a "g". Note also kote nuki, but maki gote.


A. B responds,

I understand, yet I never 'write' anything in Japanese characters, yet, yes, for the most part I would 'say' karate gi.

[Richard Horrowi]

Seriously Tony, can you see how people would not take Mr. Reynolds seriously dressed in a hoi and dogi with a hoi no obi singing an Elvis tune at an open tournament? I know he's no 10th Dan except in All you can eat Buffet Ryu.

Richard Horrowitz

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Bustillo, A.
I understand, yet I never 'write' anything in Japanese characters, yet, yes, for the most part I would 'say' karate gi.
And you would be wrong every time. Why would you want to say something you know to be wrong? Does this extend to performing kata you know to be wrong, operating machinery incorrectly, speaking other languages as well?
The mind boggles at the possibilities...

[Iron Chef]

The entire nation of Japan can't say Baseball correctly so there!

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Richard Horrowi
Seriously Tony, can you see how people would not take Mr. Reynolds seriously dressed in a hoi and dogi with a hoi no obi singing an Elvis tune at an open tournament? I know he's no 10th Dan except in All you can eat Buffet Ryu.
Does this Mr. Reynolds have a home page, Richard?
TIA,

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Iron Chef
The entire nation of Japan can't say Baseball correctly so there!
1. The Japanese word for baseball is "yakyu". But what relevance does that have here?
2. Tu quoque is a logical fallacy. Do you want to try for Bruce B's record? It will take some beating.

[Goju Man]

Antonio doing kata? :D Tony, can you still do Bassai Dai?

[Richard Horrowi]

I'll see if I can get you his e-mail address Tony, I don't believe he has a homepage.

Richard Horrowitz

[hectokan]

Tony Kehoe,
I introduced the artice written in 1968 inorder to present a story about the history of kickboxing in Japan.Most of what is written in anybodys articles can be debated to some extent ,as I personally do not agree with all of the facts presented but I also cannot present an article an rewrite it based on my opinions.

If I could ever finish writing this article,which I am having a hard time doing here at the beach on my brothers laptop, we can somehow get back to the thread.Experienced guys with kyokushin backgrounds will also notice the difference in stories compared to Nakamuras book but I don't see them jumping in here having a looney bin fit.

Hopefully when I get back home tonight ,I can finish the story and we can somhow discuss the content in more detail,also just like you might be offended that Shorinji kempo is used in the same breath as a sport like kickboxing.I am also embarrassed that kickboxing is used in the same breath as Shorinji Kenpo.

[Goju Man]

I am also embarrassed that kickboxing is used in the same breath as Shorinji Kenpo.
Their uniforms look better.:D

[Bustillo, A.]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu

And you would be wrong every time. Why would you want to say something you know to be wrong? Does this extend to performing kata you know to be wrong, operating machinery incorrectly, speaking other languages as well?
The mind boggles at the possibilities...


Heard plenty of Japanese call it that, nonetheless, Like i said, it is just a 'gi' to me. Reference, kata, that is a BIg issue on this forum; don't place much importance on them. So your analogy won't apply.
(Boggles the mind, yep, Men in Black III and cults.)

[Bustillo, A.]

Originally posted by Goju Man
Antonio doing kata? :D Tony, can you still do Bassai Dai?

I can, but I don't.

However, not so long ago, Richard did see me do it once.

[Richard Horrowi]

Tony Ernie Reynolds e-mail is below. I got it from one of his Yudanshas websites.

Richard Horrowitz

dnitwlkr007@aol.com

[Goju Man]

The entire nation of Japan can't say Baseball correctly so there!
baseboru?:D

[Goju Man]

I'm just a dogi do, and everywhere I go, people know the the sport I'm wearing!!:D

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Bustillo, A.
Heard plenty of Japanese call it that, nonetheless, Like i said, it is just a 'gi' to me.
I doubt that; in my experience, if you say "gi" to a Japanese, you'll be met with blank stares. They simply won't understand you.
What do you mean by "MIB III"? Please clarify.

[Gene Williams]

Tony, I have had one Okinawan and one Japanese instructor, and attended many clinics and seminars with Shogo Kuniba, Demura, and Higaonna. They all say "gi." They are perhaps using the shortened version for our benefit, but they do not stare blankly when the word is used. Your obsessive/compulsive behavior with respect to this issue is a little baffling. Perseveration and condescension are not typically marks of the high intelligence about which you so smugly crow. You are a nice guy, now run on back over to the Shorinji Kempo forum and leave us poor benighted karate guys to grovel in our plebian waste:p Gene

[Goju Man]

Is this the type of enlightenment and self betterment that's achieved? Wow!

[Kimpatsu]

In other words, Gene, they're talking down to you. Next time, ask them flat out whether "gi" is correct, and see the response you get. Then ask them why they were talking down to you. That'll be fun.
And what, pray tell, is so wrong with an obsession with being correct? Don't you want to speak correctly?

[Gene Williams]

Manny, your mailbox is full:p probably all emails from hot women:D

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Goju Man
Is this the type of enlightenment and self betterment that's achieved? Wow!
Yes; standing up for what's right--including grammar. Don't you want to be right, Manny? Better question: why doesn't being wilfully wrong bother you? And is this evident in other spheres of endeavour? Or is it just language that's your weak point?

[Goju Man]

Yes; standing up for what's right--including grammar. Don't you want to be right, Manny? Better question: why doesn't being wilfully wrong bother you? And is this evident in other spheres of endeavour? Or is it just language that's your weak point
Who's right or wrong is often just a point of view. We've heard yours now for quite some time. I don't know if you're just baiting me or if you are really as ignorant as you sound. Being that you wrote in your SK forum you were going to see how long you lasted over here, I'd say you're trolling, another fine display of budo your preciouse style or religion gives you. At least your other comrades either learned that lesson well or can read and comprehend better than you. The topic is about KICKBOXING. Judging by the way you make your fist in that pic, there are two things you need work on. Could we get on with the topic of the thread or do you want to show more of your budo skills?

Gene, let 'er rip. :D Box is empty and so is my cup.:D

[Steve Williams]

Please note that the views represented by Tony Kehoe are not necessarily the views of all Shorinji Kempo kenshi, or of the Shorinji Kempo organisation.


Do not "tar us all with the same brush".......


A few of you have been here a while, and know about the writings of myself and Anders Pettersson... so you know that we do not all hold Tony's "extreme" views...... see my post on the first page of this thread about how it did not mention Shorinji Kempo in a bad light.

Manny said it right
At least your other comrades either learned that lesson well or can read and comprehend better than you. so can we stop with the "shorinji kempo philosophy" and start with the "Philosophy according to Tony Kehoe"..... while it occasionally is compatable, it is not the same.

[Goju Man]

Do not "tar us all with the same brush".......
Steve, I haven't. I think you a gentleman and I'm sure you know none of us have spoken negatively on SK. :toast:

[Sochin]

Wow,

four pages of bickering in one day - hard to believe.

I'm wondering on the best way to get back to the topic which I think is interesting.

Perhaps I'll pull the posts realated to the original topic and restart them as a new thread.

remember,
any post directed against the person of a member of e-budo will be summarily yanked with no notice, if I don't miss it.

[Steve Williams]

Originally posted by Goju Man

Steve, I haven't. I think you a gentleman and I'm sure you know none of us have spoken negatively on SK. :toast:

Heh heh...... maybe not a gentleman :eek:
But I do read and comprehend quite well..... ;)

And I don't have a problem with you all coming for a visit to the Shorinji Kempo forums..... the more the merrier (if you can speak sense..... most of the time :D )

[hectokan]

...

So please for once leave the little cussing out so that you can continue to give us your opinions based on your own hypothetical equations and see if they make any sense

First of all,nobody here has ever claimed to view a kickboxing match,karate match or Judo match as any sort of measuring stick for any sort of street self defense situation,It would be stupid for anyone to do so.The only thing a combat sport or it's training method can possibly do is create a certain situation or enviorement that can simulate a portion of what can happen in a real fight.

That's basically it.In a real fight know one knows what can or cannot happen there are to many damm varriables,something that is basically learned in your first combat sport match you also learn reaL quick how many elements of your physical & mental attributes can be changed or altered in the course of two human beings engaging in a simple recreational physical activity.

so actually it is easier thru the methods learned in combat sports not to overanalyze or underanalyze anything because you become very aware of one own capabilities or lack thererof,please stop talking out of your arse by making statements about real fights with any sort of possitivity about anything,you and me both won't know what will happen in any fight.

I think you mentioned the all okianwan champions of the 60s,70s and 80s can you please post me the rules of that tournament and I would be more than glad to post the rules of any MMA event that you constantly call childs play then we can draw a conclusion as to the evidence that you are presenting in your case,I actually think your a troll because to mock the men of MMA,Muaythai,Kickboxing,Judo,boxing,constantly with not having the ability for possibly being able to defend themselves shows your lack of intelligence.



I am not a karate or kata hater or basher.I have always seen the positives and the negataives in most all forms of martial arts or it's training methods,unlike yourself that you see no possible connection between a judoka or boxer being able to defend himself.

Hector Gomez

[Goju Man]

Shidokan is the only Japanese tournament karate that even remotely resembles what karate should be. Anything else is an enterprise and a sport and not an art.
Once again, your world of contradictions come shining through. Have you seen a Shidokan event lately? Or at all? Do you know that the first three rounds are bare knuckle kyokushin style? Or that the second three are KICKBOXING? The third three are grappling? All of these which YOU label fluff, sporty stuff, you've waxed the Kyokushin guys, tapped purple belt bjj guys, waxed thai boxers. Please stop tripping over yourself when you constantantly keep going back and forth speaking authoritatively and backtracking. Shidokan stands for everything you've bashed countless times. It would do your rep good to stick by your guns. As Hector pointed out, post the rules of these Okinawa fights and let's compare. Are you using meridian death touches when you spar? Are you guys poking each others eyes out? Performing kansetsu geri waza on each other? Let's put it here on black and white and see if your argument can stand on it's own without all your name calling.

[hectokan]

Lloyd Willamsen article from 1968 black belt magazine Cont,

In june 1963,Noguchi thought that he had discovered a possible champion in Tadashi Sawamura.The youngster was fast,and what he lacked in weight,he made up for in fighting spirit.besides,he held a third-degree black belt in karate.

It was on a sultry June night,one that makes your clothes stick to your skin,that sawamura,clad in karate gi,climbed through the ropes of the riki sports palace in Tokyo.Stepping out in ebony trunks from the other corner was sama a.Adisong,Thailand No.1 Thai boxer.beads of sweat dotted the fighter's forehead and shoulders,glisteniing under the hot,bright ring lights.The referee brought the fighters to the center,briefly reviewed the rules,then sent the two men back to their corners with admonition to"come out fightin."

The bell clanged and the fighter's closed in.before it was over,the stocky Adisong had floored sawamura no less than 16 times!finally,in the fourth round,the scrappy Sawamura was unable to get up for the 17 time.Adison had won by KO!


LOSING TEACHES THINGS

Noguchi learned many things in losing.The fans really loved every minute of the action.Imagine,16 knockdowns in four rounds!Sawamura learned some valuable lessons too.Advising him to modify his style,Noguchi decided to enter the young karateka against another Thaiboxer-Orient Middleweight Champion Monkongton Sweetkung.

When local TV stations heard of the impending title match between Sawamura and a Thailand champion,they rushed to sign a contract with Noguchi to broadcast it.The big fight was set for the night of Feburary 26th,1967.

Again the karateman,Sawamura was to face a Thai boxer and a Champion at that.but Sawamura was determined not to take the drumming he had absorbed in the previous battle.He had diligently sharpened his "secret weapons." As for the Thai champion,he was confident that his experience would see him through.After all he had battled through many more fight's than Sawamura.besides his style was still fairly new to the youngster.

At the starting bell,the crowd was tensley quiet.the fighter's cautiosly felt eachother out,then began to flail away at each other with barrage after barrage of kicks and punches,For two rounds they cut loose on each other without let-up.Then in the third round,Sawamura came flying from out of nowhere and uncorked his "secret weapon."He blasted Sweetkung in the face with a vicious front flying knee kick!Sweetkung plumeted matward like a lead sinker.by the time the Thai emerged from his short sleep,Sawamura had been proclaimed the new Orient Middleweight Champion.

Today Sawamura has chalked up an impressive record.In 23 fights he has won 21 by kayoes and drawn one.he has succesfully defended his title 10 times.
Noguchi also has three other champions:Jun Nishikawa-the Orient Lightweight Champion,Isao Fujimoto-japan heavy weight champion and Shizo Saito-Japan lightweight champion.In regular boxing circles Noguchi manages the world's No.2 ranked lightweight,Akihisa someya.

The kickboxing champions can usually be seen hard at practice six nights a week at Tokyo's mejiro gym.

The pace of the training is about twice as fast as that of karate.The men are constantly in motion except for the one minute rest between rounds,which start and end the three minute intervals.The hour and a half training sessions include three ,three minute rounds of calistenics,shadow boxing,body-bag work,speed bag,rope skipping and sparring.

Gym manager Harumoto Endo says the energy consumption is about three to one compared to regular boxing.He claims that most karate men can't stand this pace;They're not in good enough shape for Kickboxing.They don't last long in a ring against kickboxers because they are not accostumed to taking a punch.Their flesh is soft and not toughen up from repeated beatings,so they go down easily."

Although Sawamura and Fujimoto are gojuryu karate sandan and nidan black belts,respectively,while Nishikawa is a second grade shotokan karateka,Noguchi backs up Endos claims,he says that many fellows come from karate wanting to fight his boys,but even against his non-champions the karate men don't stand up long.


Last Chapter to be continued:

[5thBrother]

next chapter please :-)

thanks

[hectokan]

Noguchi already had five years experience in the boxing game behind him when he originated Japanese-style kickboxing.He opened a gymnasium two years after graduating from Meji University-a school-well known for it's powerful sports profile.One year of managing boxers convinced the short,slender-hipped Noguchi that he should become a promoter.Being sharp and quick of mind,Noguchi observed a match one night that the onlookers at ringside responded to the fighters with a brightness of a billard-side gallery."The game needs new life,"thougtht Noguchi,and he vowed to find a way to instill it.


Even in early December of 59',Noguchi brought several fighters from the Phillipines and Thailand to Tokyo in an effort to create more of a boxing game.As the number of fans grew,TV companies sought to sign sizable contracts with him.Business began picking up.

Then in '62,Noguchi arranged for his brother kyo to fight Pone Kingpetch,Thailand famous champion.Two years later,noguchi staged the Ebihara-kingpetch battle.

For two years he promoted fight cards in the major cities of Japan-Osaka,kyoto,Yokahama and Tokyo.In Janurary of 1966,he formed the Japan kickboxing association Shiro Nakano became the commissioner and Sadanori Yamanaka was the president.

The Month before the Februrary 1967 fight was to take place,Noguchi and representatives of South korea,The phillipines and Thailand formed the Orient Kickboxiing association,with Tadao Ito as president.Noguchi accepted applications from 16 different gyms to join the association from Japan.


The End.

[BULLDOG]

Hello,

Some where in this array of debates lies the glowing example of what the first page of this post was speaking of – these debates are as old.

We seem to have a need to argue of what art is best and which art strays from the values that we have – I believe this skill in dissecting or dismantling things in order to build them up is what has made our country the indtrustrial giant that it is. The difference is that outside our dojo when we tear things down to build them up, we only keep what is useful – what has value - so we progress on. The difference with the martial art’s community is that we do not do this. We agree among ourselves in regards to topics that have little to know importance to the general public. This is my art’s like Krav Maga can be so effective in a commercial sense – they have broken it down and rebuilt it – and given the American public what they wanted. The same for Tae Bo – break it down – rebuild it – and give the public what they want. Is this good or is this bad? – does it really matter? – does it have any real world effect on what you teach and how you train?
---- NO!

Some martial art’s have rebuilt them selves and have found acceptance with the public. Some martial art’s do not care about public acceptance and practice their art for what it is. I say to both these groups - fantastic.

You make the decision of which path you want to go on and do what you have to do to rebuild and progress your art -or- just keep debating these issues – have fun and get no where – and call it what it is - Mental Masturbation.

BULLDOG

[Bustillo, A.]

Originally posted by BULLDOG
Hello,

We seem to have a need to argue of what art is best and which art strays from the values that we have –

....and given the American public what they wanted. The same for Tae Bo – break it down – rebuild it – and give the public what they want. Is this good or is this bad? – does it really matter? – does it have any real world effect on what you teach and how you train?
---- NO!

BULLDOG


Hmm, well, in this case , the thread is not an issue of 'values', it is more on the lines of two different training methods and pedagogy.--beginning of kickboxing in Japan.-- So, as to the comment about , 'does it really matter and does it have an effect on the way you teach,' .... it doesn't if one is the narrow-minded type who never look outside their window and does not bother to consider different ideas or points of views.

Either way, I thought it was an interesting article on the 'who, what, where, why and how ' of the first karate vs kicboxing matches in Japan.

[dlm303]

Originally posted by hectokan
Lloyd Willamsen article from 1968 black belt magazine Cont,

In june 1963,Noguchi thought that he had discovered a possible champion in Tadashi Sawamura.The youngster was fast,and what he lacked in weight,he made up for in fighting spirit.besides,he held a third-degree black belt in karate.



Does anyone know if Willamsen was talking about Tadashi Nakamura, as opposed to Sawamura?

[hector gomez]

Deborah,

No,Sawamura is not Tadashi Nakamura,although Nakamura was involved in the first Thai v.s Japan matches between karate and Muaythai.I don't believe Nakamura got into the kickboxing craze that followed.


In Nakamuras book it goes into detail on those initial bouts that kyokushin karate got involved with against the Thais,It also states how Sosai Oyama accepted the Muaythai challenge after many other karate styles declined,stating that karate must defend it's honor while most karate schools declined due to the philosphical reasons of the way of budo.


Kurosaki being Oyama right hand man got into Kickboxing after his defeat in Thailand and then opened the world famous meijiro gym which later inspired a very famous gym in holland to open up with the same name.

Kyokushin karate as we can see was very influenced by those matches and the japanese kickboxing movement of that time.kyokushin karate should be applauded for taking that initial step back when Thai boxing was not even known in Japan.


The problem I saw with the article is the mentioning of the word Thai champion,the only Thai champion that carried any weight for the people of Thailand are the Lumpini stadium title or the Radjmadan stadium titles.None of the japanese champions from that era defeated any current champions of Thailand.It was not until the 70s when one of kurosaki students Toshio Fujiwara captured the Radjmadam title becomining the first non-Thai to acomplish this feat.


His record was well over 100 victories and became my inspiration of what kickboxing can and should aspire to look like at it's highest level.

[Sochin]

Bulldog,

welcome to this place.

Please read the rules (at the bottom of any page) and sign in with your full name...


Thanks,

[dlm303]

Hector,

Thanks. I've read Kaicho Nakamura's book, but this morning couldn't remember enough detail about his fight(s) agains the Thais to determine whether Willamsen's article was referencing him or someone else.

[Bustillo, A.]

Originally posted by dlm303
Hector,

Thanks. I've read Kaicho Nakamura's book, but this morning couldn't remember enough detail about his fight(s) agains the Thais to determine whether Willamsen's article was referencing him or someone else.


Good question.
I remember reading in Nakamura's autobiography that Noguchi asked him to consider a career in boxing.


I have another question and although it may appear that I'm digressing somewhat, all this may somehow tie in.--or perhaps not.


In the 1968 Black Belt Yearbook, article 'The Dynamo of Dharma' By Andrew Adams.
_____________________________________________________
(Repeat ... this is paraphrased from an article written by A. Adams)

'...Typical of the university tournaments, the All- Kanto University Shorinji Tournament, which was held at the Budokan.
In the competiton contestants wore 12 ounce boxing gloves and leather breast plates. Referee with red and white flag assisted by two judges. Bouts are decided by an 'ippon= ten points. Time limit two minutes with an extensions of two minutes allowed.'

(A. Adams from 1968 Black Belt magazine Yearbook.)
_____________________________________________________


It was stated that certain arts don't do 'sport.' No arguement there. Yet, perhaps at one time they ventured in that direction due to the surrounding events, karate vs kickboxing matches, of the era?

[Goju Man]

Here we go again. A lot of rubbish and nothing we asked about. Now he was in the PI. Now he's a houseguest of the Gracies. Didn't he leave Caique because he didn't believe in it as opposed to his Okinawa te?
So still no set of rules on how they spar in his place. Ah, but it's "for real". Ted's right, he's on ignore.I think we all know how talented he is.:moon:

[Goju Man]

Can we get the rules?? The real rules. And nothing but the rules. That shouldn't be too hard, well, maybe for you.:toot

[Goju Man]

...

Still no rules eh? I don't have to research anything, it was you who made the claim. Can you offer any and let me state the key word VERIFYABLE facts to back up your claim? I think not. You haven't had a credible fact to back up ANYTHING you've posted under ANY of your at least five screen aliases. And I also asked for the rules YOU and YOUR dojo do kumite by. Somehow, I think you'll just keep shooting of gibberish instead of BACKING UP your rediculous statements.

[hector gomez]

I will be promtoting my next show in Miami Aug,15,maybe you can help me out,since you think we are so full of it.Maybe you can find a good kyokushin practicioner that wants to compete on my next show.

I will pay for hotel accomodations and maybe some of the travel expenses,ofcourse the A#$%*kicking is free.

Tell me if you or anyone you know wants to compete.

This is the link to my next show. www.floridamartialarts.com/fast/


Hope to see you soon.

Hector Gomez

[CEB]

Originally posted by Troof
...You are a Goju guy? You did Okinawan karate so what do you know about the All-Okinawa Championships of the 60s-70s? Nada. You are not real, just a McDojoist, admit it. Your Judo---Mcdojo, your "Kyokushinkai"- McDojo, your kickboxing McDojo. ....

There are several people that frequent this place. Who are you referring to as 'You'?




Originally posted by Troof
...Who are you really? You are stateside, no one of any real significance respects or even knows you guys. Pleeeease get real! You folks don't even know your own karate lineage. ....

I'm in the book. Who the hell is Lee Prophet? Some stupid made up alias for some chicken ¤¤¤¤ with no manners?

[Goju Man]

Kumite? Don't you mean tegumi? Dojo rules? No "do" just "jutsu". Sometimes Bogu sparring, but kickboxing with rules--- nope
How about just "fighting". Still no rules. A lot of the same old jibberish and no "veryfiable" facts.

. Left in '87. Did lots of kickboxing Thai rules and non. Did Pananjakman and Dumog. Also Kuntaw and Shorinkan under the auspices of Shorin Ryu Shorinkan Okinawan Karate-Do, Hanshi Shuguro Nakazato
All that in a short time eh? Add to that BJJ, boxing, wrestling, shorin ryu in two different systems. :D How about the rules? You keep on sidestepping the question. It is of course no surprise to most of us, but I think those that didn't know you before definitley do now. :D

[Richard Horrowi]

I have just checked with one of Hanshi Doug Perrys representatives and no one has heard of Lee Prophet. So this matter has been put to rest. If any of you aren't familiar with Hanshi Perry he is the main man in the USA for Shorinkan Karate. He is an 8th Dan under Hanshi Nakazato.

"Lee Prophet, come on down, you're the next contestant on I'M A TROLL"

Richard Horrowitz

[Steve Williams]

IF troof is a troll then why give him so much credit.....

If he is not a troll, then why bait and abuse him so much.....



You guys have to decide, and STOP this stupid arguing.



If this thread does not get back on track, then it will have run its course.



KEEP IT CLEAN.

[Goju Man]

Steve, we are not just arguing. If you check this persons posts, you'll find most have been pulled. He contributes nothing of substance to the threads, make claims that cannot be verified, and when gets backed in a corner, curses and tries to get the thread closed. Put him on ignore? Why not ban him instead?

[Richard Horrowi]

Steve, according to you and the shorinji kenshi, if a person comes on your thread bashing shorinji you'd educate them correct? So this is a little education.

Richard Horrowitz

[hector gomez]

deleted sorry posting fight poster soon.

Hector Gomez

[CEB]

I'm curious about something Hector.

All your fights that involved striking seemed to have the contestants wearing head gear. Professional boxing matches I've seen have no headgear but amaetur fights use headgear. Tough man contest around here use headgear but UFC fights don't. How is the use of headgear determined? Is it a State Boxing Commission determination or is it a sactioning body or a promoters decision.

I an event like yours that brings together different disciplines who determines if the fighters are fit. Does the Florida state boxing commission have umbrella authority over that or do you have to deal with several different groups or does the State of Florida give a lot of freedom to the fight promoters to determine their own safety criteria?

Just curious. Thanks.

[hector gomez]

Ed,

In the state of Fla Headguard & Shinguards are mandatory in all Amauter kickboxing events.MMA is not legal in this state as an amauter sport.Therefore the rules of the Fla state commission prohibit all promoters from mixing striking & grappling together in the same match or else it would have to be sanctioned as a professional event by the state of Fla.

In my shows,I have it seperated just for that reason.It's either a grappling match or a kickboxing match or kyokushin match.Our shows our sanctioned by ISKA which pretty much covers insurance for the fighters and set forth all the safety issues like ring doctors,physical checkups and fair and competent judging.

Most young fighters aspiring to one day fight in MMA were striking & grappling is allowed in the same match,usually fight in all these different disciplines in order to get the experience needed to be able to make the transition into MMA,if that is their goal.

I am a member(Judge)for the florida state athletic commitee and sat as a trail paper judge for the UFC down here in Miami,aside from the UFC,the hook-n-shoot promotions also have shows down here on a regular basis were professional MMA is governed by the state of Florida.



Hector Gomez

PS:Hope that answers some of your Questions.

[hector gomez]

Poster for our next show.

Hector Gomez

[5thBrother]

hecterkan:

thank you for postiung that article. i really enjoyed it.

thanking you.

:)

[Iron Chef]

Originally posted by hector gomez
...

PS:Hope that answers some of your Questions.

Yes, thanks. I was just curious what kind of things were involved in putting on a show like yours. It seems the state of Florida is pretty active in regulating the safety aspects of sporting events like yours. That's not necesarily a bad thing though conservatives like Gene 'The Diesel' Williams would prefer much less government involvment.

What you promote is on a much higher level than this but, the toughman contest they used to put on up here were a real turkey shoot. People would enter these things and I doubt there was much real determination of a fighters pre-fight health condition. There were liability waviers that contestants signed but I think that was about it. If someone wants the personal risks of entering the ring I don't have a problem with that. But lets say someone with a brain aneurysm enters a contest and dies. Think what that could due to the emotional condition of the poor guy's opponent.

It looks like you have a lot of leg work involved in promoting this event. If you wanted to say have a 'No Gi Kyusho Match' between Troof and The Iron Chef it would be a lot more involved than just gettin two guys to show up and fight. There would have to medical exams and all kinds of stuff wouldn't there?

Thanks for having taken the time to answer. Have a good weekend.

[Gene Williams]

Our kata practice is so rough that we have to wear head gear...we require people to sign releases just to observe our Pinan kata...there is a guy in a coma now because he just looked in the window and saw us doing Seisan. Its rough up here. I don't know about all you sissies in Indiana, Iron Chef, but we don't mess around when we do kata:mad: Gene "Diesel" Sensei

[Goju Man]

Gene "Diesel"
Is that like Vin Diesel with hair?:D

[Gene Williams]

yes, but the hair is thinning a little:p

[hectokan]

Iron Chief writes:The toughman contest they use to put on here were a real turkey shoot.


hectokan writes:We really try hard to dissasociate ourselves from the toughman type mentality.Granted sometimes a good fighter will emerge out of a toughman contest,he might be just a natural fighter and then he gets interested and starts proper training.



Most of the fighters on our show have different skill levels of experience but as a matchmaker,I am really only interested in practicioners that are training at a proper school,gym,etc with the aspirations on working on the art form.



Iron Chief writes:It looks like you have a lot of leg work involved in promoting this event.


Hectokan writes:My cell phone bill is nothing to laugh about!





:cry:

[Gene Williams]

Hector, Who has the tough job of picking the ring girls, what kind of job interview do they have;) and do you take your wife along:( Hey Antonio, were those the questions you told me to ask:confused:

[Goju Man]

I have a special interview for that one.:eek:

[Iron Chef]

Ring Girls. Here is one in a bikini. Will she do?

[hectokan]

About three shows back we had this local strip joint provide us with some nice girls for the show.The girls did great for the first 3 fights but they came in a little tipsy,maybe they had one too many drinks before the show and started stumbling around a little.


well.......the sanctioning representative started freaking out and we had to pull the plug on the girls.


Gene,yes before I use too have that horrible task of picking out the ring girls,(I miss that job)today our main man Shawn brings them and we don't have to worry about that anymore.Gene,tell Antonio to get down here soon and we will make up another excuse inorder to get to the T#$@%bars.

[Bustillo, A.]

Originally posted by Gene Williams
Hector, Who has the tough job of picking the ring girls, what kind of job interview do they have;) and do you take your wife along:( Hey Antonio, were those the questions you told me to ask:confused:

yes Indeed.

Scarlets, T I's, Hecor and I underwent shugyo training late one afternoon.

oh, the trials and tribulations of a martial artist.
Oh the horoor...

[hectokan]

Eduardo(Iron chief) that ring girl fortunatley did not make the cut.:nono:

[Goju Man]

Don't let her serve any foods either, you'll take a horrific loss!:p

[Goju Man]

You keep doin' a tai sabaki on the ISSUE YOU brought up. What about the rules? Stop trying to get the thread shut down and address the issue oh knowing one. :p

[Gene Williams]

Another Word Salad served by Troof:D

[CEB]

Originally posted by Troof

... It's a miscommunication so I'm not mad at you whatsoever. 230+ is big, but you don't have to try and bully me. Don't mistake my kindness for weakness, bro. I have a right to defend the traditionalists, especially on a karate forum. ...



Dear Anonomous

Kindness is something you have yet to be accused of. I don't like see people hide behind an alias so that they can be rude to my friends.

No threats here, though my line about me being in the book could be read as a chanllenge I suppose. My point was I am in the book. I am a real person.

I have a good friend, David Shaneman GoDan, Goju Ryu. He knows Armando Martinez. Armondo is friends with Hector. Hector is a real man. Hector exist. Antonio exist, he sends me X-mas cards. These are fine upstanding gentlemen if you treat them with good manners they reciprocate. I am possibly the most 'traditional' (whatever that is) guy on this forum. I practice a karate method along with 'traditional' hojo undo and 'traditional' junbi undo methods and I practice Ryukyu Kobudo. In addition, on Fridays evenings and Sunday afternoons I study a 450 year old sword style. These 'non-traditionalist' on the other hand know exactly what I do and they are rather coordial to this 'traditionalist' and have never attacked any of my methods.

Most all of the people I communicate with regularly on e-budo I know exist, except Gene. I don't know Gene or anybody who knows Gene but I believe Gene Williams is a real person. But as far as everybody else I communicate with, If I don't know them then I know somebody who knows someone who knows them. I don't think Lee Prophet is in the book. I don't think Lee Prophet exists.

When I was little my Greatuncle used to take me to the courthouse lawn on the town square. Everyday around 1:00 or 2:00 in the afternoon all his buddies mostly old WWI veterans around his age would gather on the park bench and talk and tell the same stories over and over again.

E-Budo is just a big ass electronic park bench. There are no great Karate meijin here. Just us guys, some of us are veterans some of us are farmers.

'Traditionalist'? I suppose I would be one of those but I don't think I do any traditions for traditions sake. I just like doing what I do. If I had my way Manny would take up John's offer and moderate a new forum on sport combatives, modern training methods ( things I don't know anything about). I think we decided it should be called The Budo Barn. Then we could get off the Karate forum and take our discussions there. Bottom line none of this is about anybody's tradition. There is just a group of people here that have established a connections over the last few years that like to shoot the breeze with each other and the karate forum is our park bench.

PS: Karate in its nature seems 'non-traditional'. I haven't figured out where you draw the line and say this is 'traditional'. I believe your teacher teaches some forms that he basically made up on his own based on crane related concepts. I have no problem with that he is a good man and a good teacher, but is this new stuff still traditional? I don't know. The karate forum isn't a grand proving ground where anything has too be defended. Leave that to all the Kuchi Bushi in the Baffling Budo forum. We come from fairly similiar stables. Peoria is that much different than Bastrop. No one attacking your methods just your manners.

[CEB]

What is taught in Peoria isn't that much different than what is taught in Bastrop (expect for possibly the crane stuff I only know Ryushoken and that still maybe mainline seito I'm fuzzy on that). No one attacking your methods just your manners.

[Goju Man]

Ed, you are truly a well spoken person, and I'm sure you had your manners well before being introduced to Goju. We have different training methods and ideologies, yet have found common ground many times. I feel many of us have built some good friendships on here, I remember you were the first one to wish me a happy birthday last year. You extended your hand and I happily accepted. Gene is another "traditionalist" that I get along very well with. Can you imagine throwing a few back a few with him?:cool: Anyway, Ed, you're a good man brother. It truly is all good.

On another note, I attended a seminar yesterday with Carlos Rollyson, one of the highest ranking BJJ black belts, 5th dan, at a school here in Miami. The training was good, the knowledge attained was good, and I would like to thank my SFA brothers,(Sagasu and Tokon), Moses Colon Sensei for having me there. His students are some of the nicest and friendliest people around. :smilejapa

[Gene Williams]

Dear Ed, Last time I checked, I existed. I think I still exist, but I just got back from the grocery store and the weird people I always see there cause me to have out of body experiences:cool: Then I am not sure. Next time I have an out of body experience, maybe I can stay out long enough to come to Indiana and prove to you that I exist, at least in some form. Then we can argue who is more traditional, me or you. I am serious about making that Florida trip to meet the SFA guys one day. If you ever come near Atlanta, call me. Gene

[Goju Man]

I will make it a point to look you guys up one day. Georgia is not that far. I'll pick up Kahuna along the way.:cool:

[Goju Man]

If you want respect, it is very simple. Don't throw a bunch of BS around to try and get it. If you post YOUR opinion, then let everyone know it is just that. When you post a FACT in your opinion, back it up, and not that your wrestling buddy Bobcat saw you do it. If your argument has merits, it will stand on its own. Ever since you were Shorin ichi, you've made some wild arse claims about almost everything, and have yet to back up a single one with facts. You claimed to be a rep for Caique. but then came on here and trashed anything that wasn't Okinawa karate. When I confronted you about it, I told you either you were in it for the money or you were lying. Then it was no good and you left because you didn't believe in it. You said it was nothing but a sport and wasn't "real". NOW, you come here and claim to be friends with everyone who has come out of Brazil named Gracie, yet you've mentioned on here several times how you've taped out blue and purple belts in legit BJJ schools, of which many of them have heard of you and are still waiting for a dojo visit. You started talking about these great karate fights in Okinawa, we've asked you over and over what were the rules, to which you have not answered. Need I go on? You want respect? very simple, EARN IT YOUNG BOY.

[Richard Horrowi]

Lee,

No one in Shorinkan has EVER heard of you. So either your name is not Lee Prophet or you never trained with them. I don't do what the SFA does I do Goju.

Ricky Horrowitz

[CEB]

Hello Gene,

I'm from Illinois. I know a lot of people from Indiana. I've had people ask me for suggested training places in Indiana and I have tried to offer some suggestions but I've always lived in Illinois except for a short time I that I lived in Palm Beach County FLA.

Kusanku is from Indiana. He is from the Terre Haute area. But he don't come around much anymore. I like him he is very polite to people.

[Gene Williams]

Ed, Indiana...Illinois...I get all those Yankee states mixed up:p I am sorry, I would not want to insult a good Illini by calling him an Indiana boy. It is sort of like saying someone from Georgia is from Alabama...that will often start fights in bars after 10 p.m. in either state. In Georgia, we do not even kill rattlesnakes if they are leaving Alabama....I remember Kushanku, I thought he was a bit of a pretender...it is interesting that he kind of disappeared with Machimura when I suggested they were Siamese twins joined at the mouth:D Gene

[hectokan]

The sad irony of this whole situation is the very little that has been said about the actual main story of this thread.I did not really present this article to show up or prove any type of supremecy of kickboxing,as some might believe.

As of matter of fact,I urge anyone to go back thru any of my past replies in this or any previous thread and try to find any type of hatred,bigotry or slander written by me directly about any traditional martial art.

Most of the time what captivates my response to answer any thread in the first place is the different methods of training and what makes some of those methods effective or not besides,I do not think any combat art is beyond being analyzed,scrutinized or questioned for it's training methods including my own.


I was first made aware of this forum by some good friends that frequently visited this site.I knew from the get go that some of my views & opinions would be in the minority,but as Ed Boyd mentioned,we have made some good friends along the way.Most of who happen to teach and practice in a more traditional setting than my own,"bigdeal" we all get along just fine and have even found common ground on many issues.

Troof,I really have to laugh at the way you elaborate your thoughts.you bring much hatred in the way you speak,that is why the people that might even uphold some of your ideals are dead set against your form of self expression.

You have never contributed anything of any significance to any thread and you really haven't tried to express why it is that you believe your methods are any better than anyone elses,not that anyone really cares.

your famous words are "you don't know me"well my friend don't be so sure,you have made some critical mistakes in your big hooohhaha polictical campaign and it's time to unveil the masked man.there is an old saying and it goes like this "keep your enemies closer to you than your best friends,no truer words were ever spoken.


I do know you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!WATCHI YOUR NECKIE.

[Bob van Tuyn]

Before I get trashed because I give my opinion on this matter I just want to say the following.

I’ve practised only 6 years of MA. And only in Kyokushin and a not mentionable time Judo. But I’m always very curious about MA traditional or not. And With this interest comes also the question of “are all MA affective”. I know that I have only experience in one style and that there are hundreds of styles. So I know that I don’t have the experience to make any hard claims. Bud just as anybody I do have my own thoughts and ideas.

On the national geographic channel there was a documentary called modern gladiators. It was a documentary about MA, cage fights etc.

The stated that the strongest MA was Muay Thai and that this was proven many times. They stated that Muay Thai boxer defeated karate, kung fu, boxing etc. All the MA where there was no ground works. On this documentary the said it was not in the technique or the physical fitness of the practitioners, but it was all in the ability of taking punches and kicks. They even said that the kicks in karate and kung fu where more stylish and beautiful bud the fighters never have taken un elbow in the face ar a hard kick to the shins. They stated that this is the difference the kicks and punches of Muay Thai boxer where hard and not fancy and more important the Muay Thai boxers know how it feels to take a punch or a elbow to the face and the others didn’t.

Like I said I’m a practitioner of kyokushin and they also emphasise on full contact and the conditioning of the body with hard blow ant elbows.

So what I want to add to the conversation is that it’s not the MA bud its the way you train in kumite.

So in general witch is better karate or kick boxing i think it would come to kick boxing if the rules of kickboxing where the standard)

[Cinnabar]

It's so funny to see these journeymen kickboxers talk about the efficacy of something they could never excel at. If you look at the All-Okinawa Champions through the 60s, 70s and 80s you'll find that everyone of them was either an Uechi Ryu stylist or Shorinkan stylist.
Troof


It was a very good article because all along I thought kick boxing started in America. I like the traditional training and will probably never change to the mma'ers school but the UFC did open my eyes. Both methods have things to offer as long as the instructor is good and not fakes and pass off backward ideas for training that border on old wives tales like the one about breastfeed a child until they are in the first grade.

[Goju Man]

Both methods have things to offer as long as the instructor is good and not fakes and pass off backward ideas for training that border on old wives tales like the one about breastfeed a child until they are in the first grade.
I actually dig breast feeding. My only problem is variety. I can't get enough different breasts to feed on.:D

[Gene Williams]

REDI-WHIP!!!! Yeah!!!!!

[CEB]

That was an interestng article. Thank you very much Hector for taking the time and making the effort to give something of value to the group. I apoligize for anything I may have done to change the focus of our conversations to something that was outside of scope.

Now we need someone who could post us an article from the 60's that discusses the old kickboxing style competitions that used to be carried out in Shorinji Kempo. I hear those were real cool. That would be some interesting reading if anybody has access to such writings.

Thank you again.

[Bustillo, A.]

Originally posted by Bustillo, A.


In the 1968 Black Belt Yearbook, article
'The Dynamo of Dharma'
By Andrew Adams.
_____________________________________________________
(Repeat ... this is paraphrased from an article written by A. Adams)

'...Typical of the university tournaments, the All- Kanto University SHORINJI KEMPO Tournament, which was held at the Budokan.
In the competiton contestants wore 12 ounce boxing gloves and leather breast plates. Referee with red and white flag assisted by two judges. Bouts are decided by an 'ippon= ten points. Time limit two minutes with an extensions of two minutes allowed.'

(A. Adams from 1968 Black Belt magazine Yearbook.)
_____________________________________________________






Ed,

This was introduced last week I have the entire article if anyone has questions.

[Goju Man]

Antonio, I would definitley like to read about it. It seems to me that if you're practicing something, wether a fighting art, sport, musical instrument, etc, you need to have a gauge of where you are and what needs work.

[Richard Horrowi]

NICE TO SEE YOU AGAIN BRYAN

you wrote below

Hey you know what? I just realized that some of you guys really think that all these folks- Kushanku, Machimura, Shorinichi, Lee Prophet and my bro- are the same person. Friggin' WRONG!

MY BRO?? MY BRO MUST MEAN YOU'RE BRYAN CYR DIPSTICK. DIDN'T BRYAN CYRS BROTHER COME ON HERE SAYING HE WAS SUCH A NICE GUY AND SO ON AND SO FORTH?

YOU JUST GAVE YOURSELF UP DIPSTICK!
YOU DON'T KNOW SHITTO OR SEITO
Richard Horrowitz

[CEB]

Man I wish I hadn't posted that picture. Whenever I open this thread that is the first thing I see especially now while I'm trying to eat. Maybe this post will be the one that stars a new page. Man I'm sorry. I could take Bryan off the ignore list and that might do it. Hey Ted if bryan is cussing and stuff and needs to be deleted go ahead and delete that bikini picture I posted. Thanks for your support.

[Goju Man]

Hector san, you are completely right brother! I noticed that, too.:D

[Bustillo, A.]

Originally posted by Troof


I lump Hector, Ricky, Manny and Antonio in the same group.




For the record, two names were omitted. Forgotten were the creme de la creme, Fernando 'Tokon' Aguilar and Mike Mitchell.



Re. Shorinji kempo '68 article.

Manny, anything specific?

[Goju Man]

Information in general. I thought they didn't compete ar all and were more of a religion. I'm not that educated on SK.

[hectokan]

My favorite Shorin-ryu guy still has to be,Trias society member kyoshi Bill"Superfootnokata"Wallace!:eek:

[Steve Williams]

Originally posted by Troof
Bro is a term used by people to denote a feeling of fraternity. You got me-- yeah right!!! I am not Bryan but I like what he said and how he said it. I am not Kusanku, but I like what he said. I am not Steve Cyr, M.D., but he is hella smart and on point and my bro. I train with those guys and I am Seito (except John). You are American Goju---F-izna-iz-nAKE to the bone. Don't you dare talk to me about who is real and who is not. Go do Sanchin and have a stroke.

"HOOOOOOCKKKTOOOOOO- POOOOT"- 'scuse you, hahahaha!!! Constipated karate rules!

Now everyone let's Tae Bo!!!

Troof

This is not the behaviour we condone here.

Either clean up your act, and follow the rules:
Profanity will not be tolerated
Treat your fellow E-Budo members with respect

Or you will find yourself suspended or banned.

[hector gomez]

If your so interested in following in the exact footsteps of the Okinawan royal guard sodiers,why don't you just drop the Funakoshi rank & belt structure and go back to the real roots.

It's seems to me that Kickboxers have more in common with soken Matsumura than you might think, both never really cared about all that.

Hector Gomez

[Goju Man]

If your so interested in following in the exact footsteps of the Okinawan royal guard sodiers,why don't you just drop the Funakoshi rank & belt structure and go back to the real roots.
IPPON!!!!

Uh oh, I feel I have to do a Sanchin kata in response to that one. Although we STILL have no rules declaration yet.
(DEEP INHALE)

HHHAAAAAAAAAATT HAAAAAT HAAAT HAAAT HAAT.:D

[Richard Horrowi]

Jim Kelly is now doing BJJ with one of the Gracies and Joe Lewis and Bill Wallace hd nothing more to do with Kata once they started kick boxing.

BTW Bryan read my bio, I don't do USAGA

Richard "Dick" Horrowitz

[Richard Horrowi]

Good Post Lee! Yes I do Love kata!

Osu,

Dick