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Moriki
4th July 2003, 19:03
Hi,

Is there anybody out there who still practices the Katori Shinto Ryu Jujutsu?. During a recent conversation with Hatakeyama Sensei, he told me that he no longer Teaches the TSKSR Jujutsu.
Are these true Katori Shinto ryu Jujutsu techniques, or something that has been added by Sugino Sensei. Also, if they are true Katori Jujutsu techniques, does Otake sensei still teach them?


All the best

George Kohler
4th July 2003, 20:19
I saw on a Japanese TV show on koryu which showed Otake Risuke showing jujutsu. I believe the show was done around 1996-1998.

It is the same show that had Katori Shinto ryu, Taisha ryu, Jigen ryu, Takenouchi ryu (Tojuro), Daito ryu (Kondo), and I believe Kobori ryu tosuijutsu.

Moriki
5th July 2003, 12:04
Mmmm.... interesting, thanks George, I wonder if Otake Sensei still teaches the Jujutsu.
I think I read somewhere that there are 36 Jujutsu techniques in the. TSKSR.
There`s a guy over in Ireland who claims to have trained under Otake, Sugino and Hatakeyama Sensei, and is selling video`s of TSKSR. One of the video`s is supposedly of TSKSR Jujutsu. I would get a copy, but at £150, it seems a little bit expensive.

yours

johan smits
7th July 2003, 08:17
Hi all,

Sugino sensei has written a book on TSKSR, somewhere in the '30's or 40's I think. The names of the jujutsu techniques are listed in it - there are indeed 36 of them.
I asked Hatakeyama sensei many years ago about those techniques, he showed two or three moves but I don't think it was TSKSR. I seem to remember that he has learned some style of jujutsu before studying TSKSR.

Best Regards,

Johan Smits

Grey Wolf
13th July 2003, 23:47
From what i understand,the TSKSR jujutsu techniques were meant specifically for men in armour on the battlefield.
So there seems to be little use for them,but since they are part of the Ryu's history i'm convinced Shihan Otake knows them.
If anyone knows more about this,please tell,interesting stuff:)

Shin Buke
24th July 2003, 05:04
I don't know if this helps any, but I recently purchased a copy of "Old School" by Ellis Amdur. I just finished reading the chapter on TSKSR (the first chapter to boot) and while he mentions little about the "jujutsu" portion of TSKSR he mentions that it's termed yawara-ge and that it focuses mostly on arms length joint locking rather than close in grappling. The rest of the chapter doesn't mention much on it but he gives no indication that it is no longer practiced. In fact, the yawara-ge is in a list of fighting arts that he states are taught by TSKSR. So I'd say that they're alive and well.

Grey Wolf
24th July 2003, 11:18
Anthony,
Thanks for that info,i'm going to try and get a copy of the book you mentioned.
Regards.

Maska
4th August 2003, 13:17
Hi all!
And somebody, saw film or the book where show: Gokui no bo Secret techniques 5 kajo, Gokui hichijo no naginata Secret techniques 3 kajo and Suriken-jutsu? I have films Yosio Sugino, and Otake Risuke, and Tetsutaka Sugawara, but nobody shows these tehniks.

Martyn van Halm
4th August 2003, 18:27
Originally posted by Moriki
There`s a guy over in Ireland who claims to have trained under Otake, Sugino and Hatakeyama Sensei, and is selling video`s of TSKSR.
Could you post his name? There are some frauds about who make all kinds of claims on training under these three masters.

Kendoguy9
12th August 2003, 00:47
hello all,

There was a documentary series made by the BBC a few years ago (1980's?) that has Otake sensei on it ("Way of the Warrior" maybe?). He showed a lot of different kata from the ryu including sword, spear and naginata. He even gave a basic run down of how a warrior should build his house/castle (very feng shui like) and how to deal with fox spirits. If memory serves they mentioned that there is jujutsu but that they would not show it because it was simple to learn even from watching and very dangerous if replicated without a qualified instructor. I would imagine without the inner secrets the weapons kata were far less dangerous to show, and less likely to be understood by outsiders.

If you have the three book set by Draeger (Classical Bujutsu, Classical Budo, and Modern Bujutsu and Budo) there are a few pictures of the jujutsu techniques.

Hope this helps.

peace,

johan smits
13th August 2003, 08:43
Hi all,

I seem to recall that it was mentioned somewhere on the net that the techniques shown by Otake sensei in the book by Draeger aren't KSR (Jikiden or Muso Jikiden or so... I really don't remember but it was one with authority).
But then nothing is KSR outside Japan (except for two legitimit representatives I believe).

I do wonder about something concerning KSR jujutsu. From memory the jujutsu is a part of the ura teachings of the school. I was under the impression that the ura parts were pretty important in koryu. Essence of the style found there so to speak.
So why would something that may have been added later to the school become a part of the ura teachings?

But then who cares?

Best Regards,

Johan Smits

kongoshin
31st January 2006, 16:48
My teachers told me that in Sugino dojo (this was in the mid-90s), they used to get together about once a year to practice the ju jutsu techniques. A senior student (Iwata-san) would read the technical descriptions aloud, and the other students would do them. They would do them one by one, having lots of laughs and a good time.

Afterwards, it was food and sake :-)

They described the techniques as being somewhat archaic and very basic. I think one of my teachers said something about other styles of ju jutsu had developed since these were made. The techniques were looked on as anachronisms and something to preserve. Technically, however, their time had passed long ago, he said (and he's a 5. dan in "modern" ju jutsu).

I've tried to get them to show them to me, but I guess it won't be until I go to Japan that I'll have the opportunity. I forgot to ask Sugino sensei about this when he was in Norway. I was too excited about him showing me the basics of shuriken jutsu :-)

johan smits
2nd February 2006, 07:29
Hi Kristoffer,

That is a great story!

If you have the chance (and permission) take pictures or videotape the techniques. A lot of people are very interested in Katori Shinto-ryu jujutsu.

The fact that the techniques are archaic does not make them less interesting in my opinion. Nice blog by the way.

Best regards,

Johan Smits

Richard Elias
8th February 2006, 21:43
I was going through some old video tapes a few days ago and found one on a Japanese tv show about budo where these young people go and do little expose’ on various different ryu including Daito ryu, Taisha ryu, Negishi ryu, and Katori ryu. During the Katori ryu portion Otake sensei demonstrates a couple of the yawara techniques. Vary basic stuff from wrist grab and from an ear or hair grab. If I recall correctly they are probably the same ones depicted in Don Draeger’s book.

johan smits
9th February 2006, 08:09
Dear Richard,

Would it be possible to get a copy of that tape from you? As in someone who is interested pays you a (not ungodly) amount of money and receives a copy?

Please say yes? - and make my day!

Best regards,

Johan Smits

George Kohler
9th February 2006, 09:09
I believe Richard is talking about an NHK produced documentary called Kobudo. It featured Owari Kan-ryu (with some Shinkage-ryu), Takenouchi-ryu, Daito-ryu (Kondo Sensei), Katori Shinto-ryu (with a lengthy interview with Otake Risuke sensei), some swimming school (Kobori-ryu?), Taisha-ryu, Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu (very limited on this), and Jigen-ryu.

In the TSKSR portion it did have only like 3 or 4 techniques done by Otake Sensei. Otake Sensei did a gyaku waza when the attacker grabbed the top knot. Another was a variation to the first one but instead of the top knot the attacker grabbed the ear. Another technique was a double forearm strike to the opponent's arm to break his elbow when he tried to attack to the face. another was a back hand slap to the opponent's face. This is all from memory, so I may have a few items wrong.

To me the most impressive stuff was TSKSR and Taisha-ryu. The Taisha-ryu iai they showed was very nice. All other stuff was great as well.

You will notice that I mention this TV show earlier in this thread.

johan smits
9th February 2006, 09:17
Hi George,

well seems to me all the more reason to get a copy. And not just for the Katori Shinto-ryu jujutsu. Just in case Richard's gone training in Japan for the next two years without access to a computer anybody else who knows of this tape? And where to get a copy?

So all of you E-budoka let's chant "tape - tape - tape......now concentrate...tape....tape....tape send message to
E-budo...tape ....tape...tape......"

best

Johan Smits

Mekugi
9th February 2006, 15:21
For the record, the full title is Kubudo Hozonban (Kobudo Masters).
I taped it off of TV a few years ago. It is too bad they do not release it on video or DVD yet. I thought they did last year, but it appears that was my imagination.

I believe Richard is talking about an NHK produced documentary called Kobudo.

johan smits
9th February 2006, 15:32
Okay Russ and all,


I am glad that a lot of people on E-budo have it on tape (maybe we can make a poll?).

But the question that keeps booming through my brains is: Can I obtain a copy from you?

AArrrrrgggghhhhhh.

Johan Smits

Steve Delaney
9th February 2006, 18:08
Ahh the tape. It is a good tape!

johan smits
9th February 2006, 19:37
That is a low blow - ya're being cruel!!

Just what I like I am a jujutsu man after all. Big smiley (never get them to work).

In spite of it all.

best,

Johan Smits

fifthchamber
9th February 2006, 23:39
Russ, Steve..
Great tape..Thanks for the look too...Have you managed to see the Iaido-Shinkage Ryu DVD/Book set with the intro by Sonny Chiba?Some good stuff there too..Although not as wide ranging as the Kobudo documentary..
Russ, are you coming to the Budokan this weekend?Steve, I'll tape as much as I can and photograph the rest, Takagi Sensei can't make it either..
Regards.

Mekugi
10th February 2006, 00:51
I can't make it- work has me double shifting because one of our teachers quit. PLEASE DO TAPE IT. Maybe other would be interested in seeing it (hint..hint). I'll give you a lovely Valentine if you do....ok maybe that is more threatening than bribing. How about if you don't, I'll give you a Valentine?



Russ, are you coming to the Budokan this weekend?Steve, I'll tape as much as I can and photograph the rest, Takagi Sensei can't make it either..
Regards.

fifthchamber
10th February 2006, 04:04
Hi Russ..
Don't know if I can video the whole thing as I can only use the Camera to record...But the memory is better than last year so I can get about 7 minutes of stuff maybe..Takeuchi Ryu dake maybe..
I WILL take pictures though..I have too..Otherwise Kiri would have nothing to moan about later in life...And I can't be a great husband..That's too hard..
Heh..About that Valentine?.....Ummm...I hear Siberia is warm in Spring..
Regards.

Mekugi
10th February 2006, 17:23
You are totally getting a Valentine. We need to put together A) people with canmcorders or B) find someone who will tape it. I wonder if Robert R. is going (Rob, if you are reading in please do bring a recorder).

Anyway, whatever you can give, I would like to beg off you. I have the Atsuta jinja embu on tape (with some of the Kusarigama of Tendo ryu, very kewl). Maybe we can trade? I am going to set up nicely this next time around, with like 3 different people taping so I can get the whole thing with angles. At least, I am working on it...nothing set in stone yet.

-Russ

Hi Russ..
Don't know if I can video the whole thing as I can only use the Camera to record...But the memory is better than last year so I can get about 7 minutes of stuff maybe..Takeuchi Ryu dake maybe..
I WILL take pictures though..I have too..Otherwise Kiri would have nothing to moan about later in life...And I can't be a great husband..That's too hard..
Heh..About that Valentine?.....Ummm...I hear Siberia is warm in Spring..
Regards.

johan smits
22nd February 2006, 08:34
Last night Marishiten appeared to me in a dream in the form of a strikingly beautiful tall brunette.

She granted me a wish - and naturally I asked her about the jujutsu of Katori Shinto-ryu.

She showed me a small dojo in which Otake sensei executed jujutsutechniques. Apart from the gyaku waza Geoge Kohler mentioned Otake sensei showed an escape against mune dori. Two basic tehodoki techniques and a gyaku seoi entry coupled with hiji ate from which you can either break the arm of throw your opponent.

When I asked her why people are doing so mysterious about the jujutsu part of the curriculum she just smiled and and made a mysterious mudra by pointing an indexfinger up towards the sky and moved it slowly from side to side.

She promised to visit me again when my wishes have improved (left me wondering what she meant) and disappeared in a cloud of smoke.

Best regards (oh and she said to say hello to all of you E-budo-buggers, her words not mine.)

Johan Smits

Steve Delaney
22nd February 2006, 12:09
Looks like someone got a videotape. :)

johan smits
22nd February 2006, 13:03
No Steve..........It was a dream in which, thanks to divine intervention, sensei himself showed me the inner secrets of said ryu.

I think of starting me own ryu now given the divine blessing I got from the dark lady. As soon as I got the monthly contribution figured out I will make a statement here on E-budo and claim sokeship. We will be recognized by the shaking finger mudra chanting a secret negative sound.

Hah, tapes - us soke's don't do tapes (apart from those we can sell for an ungodly amount of money). Mysteriously the tapes will be blank and only those who are initiated into the secrets of our ryu will be abel to view what's on it.

Not so humble now.

Johan Smits (have to figure out a name yet)

kongoshin
1st March 2006, 15:25
I'm going to Japan and Sugino dojo in april. Although the TSKSR Ju Jutsu is not taught on a regular basis there, I'll ask Sensei humbly for a demonstration of the techniques. With my background in Aikido I would be very interested in seeing them myself.

Hopefully I can remember them, too. There are 36 of them...

I'm not sure if Sensei would let me video tape them, but I might ask ;-)

johan smits
1st March 2006, 15:38
Kristoffer,

That is a splendid idea! Not all people are evildoers some of us are interested without evil intentions.

I hereby promise to better my life and forsake sokeship and hefty financial contributions.

Actually the Marishiten I mentioned in my earlier posts was my wife who gave me a worldwide recognized mudra when I mentioned Katori Shinto-ryu jujutsu in bed.

best regards,

Johan Smits

Moriki
1st March 2006, 17:10
I'm going to Japan and Sugino dojo in april. Although the TSKSR Ju Jutsu is not taught on a regular basis there, I'll ask Sensei humbly for a demonstration of the techniques. With my background in Aikido I would be very interested in seeing them myself.

Hopefully I can remember them, too. There are 36 of them...

I'm not sure if Sensei would let me video tape them, but I might ask ;-)


If Sugino Sensei does let you video the Jujutsu techniques, I would definately be interested in a copy, Please..... grovel, grovel, beg, beg....etc ;)

George Kohler
19th June 2006, 17:51
I believe Richard is talking about an NHK produced documentary called Kobudo. It featured Owari Kan-ryu (with some Shinkage-ryu), Takenouchi-ryu, Daito-ryu (Kondo Sensei), Katori Shinto-ryu (with a lengthy interview with Otake Risuke sensei), some swimming school (Kobori-ryu?), Taisha-ryu, Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu (very limited on this), and Jigen-ryu.

In the TSKSR portion it did have only like 3 or 4 techniques done by Otake Sensei. Otake Sensei did a gyaku waza when the attacker grabbed the top knot. Another was a variation to the first one but instead of the top knot the attacker grabbed the ear. Another technique was a double forearm strike to the opponent's arm to break his elbow when he tried to attack to the face. another was a back hand slap to the opponent's face. This is all from memory, so I may have a few items wrong.


Here is the Katori Shinto-ryu part of the TV program.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYjFpb1G4D4&search=katori

Ron Tisdale
19th June 2006, 18:24
Damn those guys are good! Very impressive.

Best,
Ron

kongoshin
19th June 2006, 21:43
Here is the Katori Shinto-ryu part of the TV program.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYjFpb1G4D4&search=katori

Impressive technique alright, but it doesn't show any Ju Jutsu...

Nice to see kata being done in TSKSR Honbu. It's a special place.

kenkyusha
20th June 2006, 04:26
Impressive technique alright, but it doesn't show any Ju Jutsu...

Nice to see kata being done in TSKSR Honbu. It's a special place.
But in the original documentary, Otake sensei has a lengthy seated interview, demos some of the oyo w/his sons and other students doing kumitachi, and does do a couple of jujutsu waza (vs mimidori, eridori and kaminokedori at least).

Be well,
Jigme

George Kohler
20th June 2006, 06:33
Sorry, I didn't see the whole copy, but the footage is from the original TV show that was mentioned above.

johan smits
20th June 2006, 06:38
The demo is very interesting to watch and the weapons part is - what can I say - ain't seen nothing better.
The jujutsu part - although interesting since you never see katori shinto ryu jujutsu - is not exactly breathtaking (don't get me wrong, happy to have it).

The fact that Otake sensei shows a basic tehodoki technique doesn't make it anything else than a basic tehodoki technique. Tehodoki techniques belong by the way to my favorite techniqiues.


best,

Johan Smits