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BULLDOG
5th July 2003, 15:56
Post 911 I have seen a new attitude or may be a new insecurity in the American traditional martial art’s community.
The reality that now we are subject to the same daily potential horrors of terrorism has, for some, brought the question of what we can do and cannot do in the real world.
The traditional martial arts that I have loved for the past 20 years are without question the foundation of what I practice and teach, my ultimate endorsement for tradition is that both of my daughters are active in my dojo –but hear comes why inquiry to you all = [1] In the modern world of today where do you place the value of your art in a true self defense situation and why?
[2] How well are you prepared to response to a gun, knife or a rifle?
[3] How well are you prepared to deal with this situation when you are concern for the welfare of others?
[4] Have you post 911 adjusted or not adjusted your training methods?
I look forward to your response.

BULLDOG

Gene Williams
5th July 2003, 18:08
Hi, I don't think one changes the art and tradition to try to meet every contingency. You may prepare for those things in many other ways without changing the art. In response to your question about preparation against a pistol or rifle, there is no reliable empty hand defense against a pistol or rifle in the hands of someone who really knows how to use one in such a way as to neutralize ahead of time your efforts. I don't see 911 changing much about the martial arts, because last time I checked, a front kick does not work well against a commercial airliner;) Gene

BULLDOG
5th July 2003, 23:07
Gene,

Thank you for your response!
I agree with your response in regards to having no need to alter the art. Once you do this, then the art does not exist, it changes into something new, like shotokan, goju
and so on.
I do agree that when confronted by an attacker who is proficient with a knife or gun that there is very little that you can do. In this situation, yes the traditional aspects of real world self defense comes into play like: mizu no kokoro and SonoSen.
Traditional arts where created in there day to address the self-defense concerns of that time - similar to what we need today?
Once again thank you for taking the time to respond to my inquiry.
Sincerely,

BULLDOG

Mitch Saret
6th July 2003, 04:54
With Gene, that is. No need for changing your art. You really cannot plan for every contigency. If that were possible Israel would have found a defense against the bombings.

I will say that good traaining will improve your odds against a knife, but a pistol or rifle is a completely different story. You might have possiblities against a pistol at point blank range, but at 10 feet? Fugedabadit! One theory about that situation is even to try and talk them closer to you. A rifle? If they know what they are doing they are too far away for you to even know they are there until it's too late. An interesting question.

Sillal
6th July 2003, 11:22
there is no reliable empty hand defense against a pistol or rifle in the hands of someone who really knows how to use one in such a way as to neutralize ahead of time your efforts

Outside of falling down and bleeding you mean?:)

Amir
6th July 2003, 13:18
Living in Israel and having to face that challenge for a bit longer period

I would say one shouldn't change his M.A but he should be aware of it's limitations in this age. No style can help you defend yourself against a bomb blowing near you, a gun being shot at a distance or any one of lots of similar conditions.

On the other hand, if you consider yourself a Martial Artist. You should remember while the lesson in the Dojo normally concentrates in the responses. A serious M.A. should also be sensitive to the environment and aware, and these attributes could assist you much more, even n the modern age of threats.

Amir

Qasim
6th July 2003, 20:54
There seems to be a sort of "Inferiority Complex" or in some cases a self created "Superiority Complex" among Gendai practitioners. I don't understand the need to constantly try and de-value traditional martial arts in the face of today's threats.

As someone once said in regards to creating new martial arts systems, "There are only so many ways to punch kick the human body. Or to even restrain, break bones, lock or destroy joints".

Continue with your traditional training and learn new techniques that will compliment this training.

BULLDOG
7th July 2003, 12:41
Hello "Qasim" Uriah Gardner

Thank you for response.

I agree with your statement, ‘Continue with your traditional training and learn new techniques that will compliment this training.’

I support and teach this very principal. As traditional martial artist we must keep, treasure, respect and never lose the art that we practice –but- we can adapt to what the need is for the time that we live in. To not do so is to be practicing an art for its value in history and to lose the martial in martial arts.

In regards to your statement, ‘There seems to be a sort of "Inferiority Complex" or in some cases a self created "Superiority Complex" among Gendai practitioners. I don't understand the need to constantly try and de-value traditional martial arts in the face of today's threats.’ I could not of said it any better. I will utilize this very statement as I defend my art to those that have a need to deflate or inflate the tradition that has been proven thru out the years.

There is only so many ways that we can do a technique base on the physic’s of how the human body will function. It is the application of these principals that is the only factor that we can manipulate to achieve our desired effect.

Thank you again.

BULLDOG

Amir
7th July 2003, 13:54
As someone once said in regards to creating new martial arts systems, "There are only so many ways to punch kick the human body. Or to even restrain, break bones, lock or destroy joints".

True, but we were talking of modern threats, such as guns, bombs etc. they have nothing to do with the physical restrictions of the human body.

And none of this should cause anyone to change his course of study.

Amir

Qasim
7th July 2003, 15:10
Originally posted by Amir


True, but we were talking of modern threats, such as guns, bombs etc. they have nothing to do with the physical restrictions of the human body.

And none of this should cause anyone to change his course of study.

Amir

Hence, my statement "Continue with your traditional training and learn new techniques that will compliment this training."

MarkF
8th July 2003, 11:13
Hi, Bulldog:

Please remember to sign your posts with your true name, as it is a rule to which you agreed when you signed on to E-budo. Set your signature editor to do it for you (User Options) and be sure to set it to default (much simpler and makes forgetting moot).

Unarmed self-defense is quickly becoming moot due to the number of ways to take someone down. You do probably have a better chance in most cases of talking down a potential attacker than with physical force as it is now, and in the not too distant future most will have a different reason for training than for SD.

To paraphrase an old TV ad, "Budo isn't just for self-defense anymore."


Mark

Sillal
8th July 2003, 11:52
How silly would you feel if his name was BULLDOG?:)

Qasim
8th July 2003, 15:42
Originally posted by MarkF
Unarmed self-defense is quickly becoming moot due to the number of ways to take someone down. You do probably have a better chance in most cases of talking down a potential attacker than with physical force as it is now, and in the not too distant future most will have a different reason for training than for SD.

This statement made absolutely no sense, please explain. :confused: :confused: :mst:

Barry Southam
8th July 2003, 23:18
Hello,

I certainly will not speak for Mark but I look at what he said in this way...People don't have to be close to you to hurt you if they are creative...They can do it from a distance with weapons or explosives or be nearby and throw objects or use all kinds of agents that would affect the masses in public...
But I still think it's of benefit to learn a martial art that fits you... I am partial to Judo and see it as a very good martial art for up close and personal types of attacks...You can go from mild to severe in your response to an aggrssive attack depending on your ability and experience...I guess on the other hand training in the martial arts can be a two edged sword....On one hand you learn a means of selfdefense and control(responsibility) BUT then the aggressor might turn around and take you to court for having training in a martial art....I don't know, I just think it's beneficial to study a martial art....Maybe if you never have to use your skill and I hope we never have too....Just by training might give an individual the psychological calm of being around potentially explosive people and keeping their thoughts and having focus.. Your calmness as others look at you might spread and help others to stay calm...I'm sure others can add to this area in dealing with thugs of all types...

Just my thoughts..

Barry E. Southam

Qasim
9th July 2003, 01:46
Originally posted by Barry Southam
I certainly will not speak for Mark but I look at what he said in this way...People don't have to be close to you to hurt you if they are creative...They can do it from a distance with weapons or explosives or be nearby and throw objects or use all kinds of agents that would affect the masses in public...

Looking at it that way means that you will be totally unprepared for the situations that occur that don't fit this criteria.

Barry Southam
9th July 2003, 04:05
I never said that a person is able to "TOTALLY" be prepared to meet all threats..Too many variables to consider..I will say that studying martial arts has more positive than negative attributes in dealing with physical threats when it's up close and personal excluding suicide bombers or masses of people rushing you...The physical training and mental conditioning would be a plus in surving an attack...Yes, I said surviving...I may have been beaten and robbed but I survived the ordeal with minimal psychological trauma and physical damage...Therefore, I won in that I wasn't seriously injured or will carry trauma with me for years...If the person hadn't of trained physically and mentally in the martial arts, the outcome might be different...

No, I don't think one can be prepared for all types of violence and its many methods...Elite, highly trained military have even a difficult time against snipers, suicide bombers,clandestine methods of trickery and deceit resulting in attacks...

What is your answer to this situation ??


Barry E. Southam

Barry Southam
9th July 2003, 04:08
When I said I was beaten and robbed, it was an example..It has never happened to me..

Sorry for any misinterpretation as to my comment..


Barry E. Southam

Qasim
9th July 2003, 04:08
I never said that you said that. But no self defense training leaves you with no options.

Mike Williams
9th July 2003, 10:54
Originally posted by Qasim
I never said that you said that. But no self defense training leaves you with no options.

I disagree. Plenty of people succesfully defend themselves every day with no training. Physical self-defense is far more about a combative mindset, aggression and, well, luck than anything else (IMO).

In fact, I think a lot of self-defense (and martial art) training can be counter productive in the short term, as it tends to force people to think of potential consequences and technique options, leading to brain-fart.

Basically, I think most people will be better off with no training at all than with six-months of [insert art here]. I believe strongly that any art that professes to teach self-defense should focus on situational awareness, de-escalation skills, and stress management in the early stages - the physical techniques should be of secondary importance. Sadly, it's usually the opposite way around.

Cheers,

Mike

Gene Williams
9th July 2003, 11:53
Mike, That is the best statement I've heard on this issue yet. Thanks. I would add that a strong spirit is essential. Plenty of people with no martial arts or military background not only find ways to defend themselves against physical attack, but also survive, terrible ordeals, cancer, tragedies of all kinds and return to "normel" life all the stronger. These people are the ones I admire most. A strong spirit, no matter how someone gets it, makes you very hard to kill. Gene

MarkF
9th July 2003, 13:19
I can see how my comment was not understood (it wasn't thought out, and I was also trying to post something to the thread and not just the full-name business), but it is far from not making any sense. I think patience is a virtue be it budo or anything else. It is also common sense in unarmed (and armed) self-defense.

Barry explained part of it well (thanks), but other than that, it was a statement of the future, and not tomorrow. As in koryu, some styles are still practiced out of carrying on a tradition, you can see it in the military all ready (small groups carrying out much of today's battles with advanced weaponry along with advanced training instead of throwing in everything you've got and coming out with a pyrric victory of a kind, with the action in Iraq really a look at how the old ways just don't work anymore).

What I'm saying is that in the future, self-defense will become a minority reason for taking up budo or MA of any kind. It is only a guess, but it is all ready happening. AS for Japanese combatives, it probably began in the Edo period, with little use, it becomes training for trainings sake. I never said or implied that everything is definitely going to do this, but it will take on a different form, or it will be practiced for the sake of a tradition. There is also nothing wrong with doing just that. I am of the opinion that there must be other reasons, even if only to face the ultimate boredom at some point. It happens.

Jigoro Kano did so with the "shi-ni-ai (shiai)" by holding scheduled activities in which victory on a battlefield (the streets) was replaced with symbolic victory of the shiai. So I didn't say anything new, it was simply a comment of days to come. I certainly am NOT saying unarmed combatives didn't teach anything or were unnecessary, I believe they are, the majority reason for taking them up may change. Examples abound. We all make fun of Taebo, but how many do take up budo for expressly the same reason. If they learn self-defense along the way, well the teachers have done their job. We can't make them see if their eyes are closed.

I apologize if my remark was written in a way you couldn't understand, and it was written in haste, but certainly more and more, what drives it has all ready changed and in taking that into account, with the many ways of avoiding self-defense (unarmed), hand to hand, it is not only possible but probable.

With all that said, I've been at this for only forty years, and while my chief reason for involvement early on was definitely self-defense, that quickly changed. I am, however, confident enough that I can take care of myself and perhaps others (not to mention having to do so). I am simply of the opinion that aside from the self-defense reasons, one should find and practice all reason for training which compliment that. It is an increasingly violent society, most of it coming from long range, as Barry said. If someone wants to hurt you, they will, no matter how well one can wrestle or punch or swing a sword/stick.


Mark