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View Full Version : How do you view milder form of violences against "gentler members" in society?



Cody
6th July 2003, 04:07
Here is a poll for you pollphiles:

My roommate is writing an essay for her geography class. Her topic is related to domestic violence in Latin America society. She is BC born Canadian, I am Hong Kong born Chinese.

We both find it very interesting: not so much the topic itself, but how people from different parts of the world view violence.

In some of the sociology articles we found online, it mentioned there are two different value systems in societies: honor-system, and independence-system.

In an honor-based society (such as southern US), statistics show that college student generally find it acceptable to slap/yell at/shake a woman if she is known to have cheated on her husband, because a woman’s misbehavior affects her husband’s reputation.

In an independent society, such as the northern states, students generally frown upon any degree of violence. If a woman cheats on her husband, it’s her problem, it looks bad on her, not the husband. However, if the guy starts hitting her, then it would look bad on the guy.

BTW, the survey did not ask about more severe kind of violence that could induce permanent and severe damages (such as punching, kicking, hitting with hard objects etc) as researcher assumed most society will not condone that.

We also speculate that woman suffering domestic violence are a lot more likely to report it or at least do something about it (such as divorce) if she comes from an independent society. However, in the honor-based society, the woman is more likely to be silent about the “abuse”.

Also, I perceive myself to have came from an honor-based society, and I feel that spanking etc is not child abuse; it’s a very proper way to raise well-mannered children. However, my Canadian friend disagreed vehemently.

So, Aaron’s recent thread inspired me. He told of a birthday party story with an interesting side-kick. For those who haven’t read his story, basically, a 47+ years old male friend stripped himself stark-naked in his house party, in front of young children and older folks, and despite the host’s polite request to put them back on. As a result, Aaron the almighty elder give him a public flogging.

Aaron asked if that was “bully behaviors”, most of us answered no, the punishment suited the crime.

[for more info view http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20109]

My question is: where are you from (honor-based society? Independence-based society?), and do you think it’s still okay if it was a woman/ child who did that in the party? And lastly… why? [pretend you were the party host, not Aaron]


-Cody

A. M. Jauregui
6th July 2003, 06:19
Originally posted by A.M. Jauregui
I prefer to socially embarrass out of line party guests but if need be I move on to the physical *[evil] lol*.

I probably would have lead him out to the middle of the party and ridiculed him in front of the others and if that was not enough a harsh twist of his manhood (followed by a bit of jujutsu to through his naked butt on the street).
*Some fool actually got naked at one of my parties - gay pride BS*

Would not have made too much difference if it was a girl instead of a guy, well instead of a rough twist it would have been an unpleasant fingering. With most people socially embarrassment is more effective then physical punishment, so taking it to a physical level is generally only needed in extremes (one case so far).

I know there are legal issues to acting the way that I do but have slipped through the cracks so to speak so far.

David T Anderson
6th July 2003, 15:53
Hi Cody -- This is an interesting question, not the least because we live in more or less the same place [a major mountain range and a small stretch of ocean aside...].

I think that part of the confusion is that both the honour-base and independance-base ethos exists simultaneously in society...sometimes even mixed up within the same person's psyche.

I would say I am a strongly independance-based person...I don't see my self-esteem damaged by another person's actions. That being said, I see no problem with using some physical force in the raising of children. Actual corporal punishment is best kept to a minimum, I think...but sometimes you have to break through a child's resistance to discipline and get his full attention, impressing him that some things are simply unacceptable [whether the child is 7 or 47... I should also note that the most effective anti-tantrum tactic for my 3-year old daughter was to tell her she'd be taken out to the car and made to sit there until the end of the shopping trip].

The important thing to understand, I think, is that different people have different deep motivations, and discussing them in terms of right and wrong may not make sense. Note the long discussion created by Dave Lowry's
Question (http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=19789) here...an interesting contrast in honour/independance views that have nothing to do with violence.

Bottom line...it's always wise to seek basic principles in matters like this, but always be aware that our search may not take us to a single definite location...

Oh, and in answer to your question, I'd do my best to prevent a friend or loved one from embarassing him/herself in public, but I wouldn't make it an occasion for a greater public spectacle, nor would I expect that physical punishment was an answer. I didn't weigh in on the discussion of the naked party guest, but it seemed to me that it was far more than a matter of a rude party guest and an outraged host.

bruceb
6th July 2003, 16:08
If you wanna be happy for the rest of your life

and you're not happy with the woman, your wife

Take my personal point of view

get another girl to marry you.

La ...la... la...la,la,la,la, ....La ( and so on)

As for the child?

Psychological terror, and jujitsu should do.

If it doesn't ... just tell your child ... "I will pick you up the day they let you out of jail." If they stay out of trouble, fine, if not ... your choice as to pick them up or not.

(I am kidding, as much as I am not kidding.)

Shitoryu Dude
6th July 2003, 19:22
My first thought is that anyone who comes over to my house had better understand that their behavior comes under my rules. If you want to get naked you had better be female, looking pretty good and shaved/waxed from the neck down. :D

But basically, if I told somebody to get dressed and/or leave I don't expect any lip from them - they can be a total putz at their own house. Age and/or sex won't enter into the question if you need to get your ass whupped a bit.

:beer:

Cody
6th July 2003, 21:23
honour-base and independance-base ethos exists simultaneously in society...sometimes even mixed up within the same person's psyche

Well said Daniel san, it is difficult to put individuals into holes. For me, it's definitely mixed, as I was raised in Asia until 1997.

I consider my actions affect my family, school and dojo's reputation, and so I don't hesitate to correct my kouhai in whatever way I see fit. I also accept whatever my shihan / teachers/ parents put me through. But I think this has more to do with my schooling experience in Asia.

I don't have kids, but I have had my share of baby sitting. I also lived with 2 young kids during my first year in Canada (4 and 6 year old delightful little devil). My host parents were gentle and reasonable and patient in every way (and way too permissive for my like), but sometimes, no grounding or time out or removal or previlages or talking will get their attentions. I don't believe in brutally beating up kids (or man or woman); I also don't believe in resorting to physical force as first attempt; but I also think to rule out corporal punishment entirely is silly. As I said in another thread, there is nothing more scary for a kid than to push the rules (as all kids do) and realize there is nothing to stop them.

-Cody

Cody
6th July 2003, 21:25
Originally posted by A.M. Jauregui


Would not have made too much difference if it was a girl instead of a guy, well instead of a rough twist it would have been an unpleasant fingering. With most people socially embarrassment is more effective then physical punishment, so taking it to a physical level is generally only needed in extremes (one case so far).



Is it just me? I agree that social embarrassment probabaly suits the scenario best, I even agree a rough twist should be quite effective. Now... I don't know where this bias came from ... but "unpleasant fingering" to a non-compliant female guest is just unthinkably anti-social, sexual and violent. :eek:

Cody
6th July 2003, 21:37
Originally posted by Shitoryu Dude
My first thought is that anyone who comes over to my house had better understand that their behavior comes under my rules. If you want to get naked you had better be female, looking pretty good and shaved/waxed from the neck down. :D


Remind me to shave next time you throw a summer party :cool:



Originally posted by Shitoryu Dude
But basically, if I told somebody to get dressed and/or leave I don't expect any lip from them - they can be a total putz at their own house. Age and/or sex won't enter into the question if you need to get your ass whupped a bit.

:beer:

Theoretically this is good. But I can only imagine the high pitch scream and law suit that follows when the permissive mother witness the heavy belt making full contact with her naughty 7 year old.

-Cody

A. M. Jauregui
6th July 2003, 23:38
Originally posted by Cody
Is it just me? I agree that social embarrassment probabaly suits the scenario best, I even agree a rough twist should be quite effective. Now... I don't know where this bias came from ... but "unpleasant fingering" to a non-compliant female guest is just unthinkably anti-social, sexual and violent. :eek:

Tit for tat so to speak. If the need arose I would inflict the rough twist on the guy so I do not feel that there would be a significant difference with a bit of unpleasant fingering for the girl that has the audacity to...

I have a feeling that the people in question that exhibit nudity at inappropriate times are looking for attention - attention on their own terms however. By turning the tables on them and making their nudity into tomfoolery, their behavior is generally rectified. Only having to deal with one such case I can not really generalize - that is why I said I have a feeling...

Shitoryu Dude
7th July 2003, 00:15
I have been known to spank other people's unruly kids. Not that I'm in to beating the living crap out of a mouthy 4-year old who is torturing a pet, but every now and then a few swats is what the brat needs to learn boundries on behavior.

If you don't want me disciplining your children for you, keep them under better control.

:beer:

Steve Williams
7th July 2003, 00:24
Is this:


In an honor-based society (such as southern US), statistics show that college student generally find it acceptable to slap/yell at/shake a woman if she is known to have cheated on her husband, because a woman’s misbehavior affects her husband’s reputation.

In an independent society, such as the northern states, students generally frown upon any degree of violence. If a woman cheats on her husband, it’s her problem, it looks bad on her, not the husband. However, if the guy starts hitting her, then it would look bad on the guy.
The only criteria for an Honour-based or Independant society??


So where do other countries societies fit into the equation......


I have to know where to put my "x".......

Or is this a US-only poll...... :)

Cody
7th July 2003, 00:29
As Daniel San pointed out, more often than not, the two are somewhat mixed and not so clear cut...

However, knowing where the "rule of thumb" came from, I would probably put UK under honor-based ethos :D

-Cody

P.S. Being serious now: I didn't have any intension to exclude countries outside US. I don't study sociology/ geography, but from my limited knowledge, Canada and northern US are generally considered independence-culture; southern States and Latin America are generally considered honor- culture; Asia (esp. east Asia) are generally considered "collective culture", which falls more on the Honor-culture side. As with the UK... I really don't know. I've never been to britain, but most Brits I've met online are rather "old fashined"... (TK excluded :D)

Cody
7th July 2003, 01:06
Here is an interesting quote from
this site (http://www.findarticles.com/cf_0/m2005/1_33/56027317/p3/article.jhtml?term=)



Scholars have also identified honor cultures, in the American south and along the Mediterranean among other places, in which masculine honor requires a willingness to answer insult or challenge with physical violence.(21) Violence in defense of honor and recreational violence are not synonomous though they may and frequently do coexist. Societies marked by an honor culture have a very high level of violence. The records do not support the notion of the Irish as particularly prone to violence. Most years the Irish homicide rate was only about two thirds that of England and Wales. Another significant difference is the fact that confrontations over honor are deadly serious.(22) In Ireland brawling was entertainment.


and another quote (http://www.cas.usf.edu/~vandello/culture_and_violence.htm)



Culture, Honor, and Domestic Violence. Much of my recent focus has been on male violence against women. I am interested in exploring cultural influences on domestic violence, in honor cultures and beyond. In one series of studies, Dov Cohen and I showed that a college sample of Brazilians was more likely (relative to a sample from the U.S.) to believe a man lost honor if his wife was unfaithful, and he could regain some of this honor through the use of violence. In a follow-up study, college students from honor cultures (U.S. Latino/as and Southern Anglos) were more likely (compared to Northern Anglos) to send signals of acceptance of witnessed violence and to have a more favorable impression of a woman who remained in an abusive relationship. In a series of archival analyses of real-world domestic violence, several themes associated with cultures of honor (emphasis on female purity, gender inequality, and familial collectivism) correlated with the cultural prevalence of domestic violence

Vapour
7th July 2003, 02:44
Originally posted by Cody
In some of the sociology articles we found online, it mentioned there are two different value systems in societies: honor-system, and independence-system.

My advice is not to rely on an article which define sample groups into such ill defined category such as honour and independent system. I could do exactly same with feminst oriented and non feministed oriented system.

Vapour
7th July 2003, 02:46
Originally posted by Shitoryu Dude
I have been known to spank other people's unruly kids. Not that I'm in to beating the living crap out of a mouthy 4-year old who is torturing a pet, but every now and then a few swats is what the brat needs to learn boundries on behavior.

If you don't want me disciplining your children for you, keep them under better control.

:beer:

http://maddox.xmission.com/beat.html

Shitoryu Dude
7th July 2003, 02:58
Where do you find these web sites? :laugh:

"Remember: never take ¤¤¤¤ from your kids. You make payments on the house, utilities, their clothes, school, and their food. You own them. If they don't like it, they can move out. If you love your kids, love them enough to beat them so that they don't grow up to be idiots."

"people don't know the difference between discipline and child abuse."

:beer:

elder999
7th July 2003, 19:56
Given the same situation I encountered with a woman, I would never have acted the same way.....
....I'd have let my wife take care of it...

Ditto the parents of a child-if they didn't want to make their cute little brat get dressed, they could leave.

Oh, and I'm from a northern state, educated, and the child of very educated parents from the north-who didn't hesitate to tan my butt when it was needed.

Cody
7th July 2003, 21:32
It is a funny website, vapour :D

On the other end of the spectrum... some people should have just used condom in the first place...

http://www.aliencentral.com/misc2/grocery_store_kid_no_candy.mpg

Cody
7th July 2003, 21:47
Originally posted by elder999
Given the same situation I encountered with a woman, I would never have acted the same way.....
....I'd have let my wife take care of it...

Good answer Aaron =)



Originally posted by elder999

Oh, and I'm from a northern state, educated, and the child of very educated parents from the north-who didn't hesitate to tan my butt when it was needed.

BTW, I don't think level of educations play as much a role as culture and past experiences. In another word, how you discpline your kids reflects your culture and your own up-bringing more than education background.

-Cody

Cody
7th July 2003, 21:52
Originally posted by Vapour


My advice is not to rely on an article which define sample groups into such ill defined category such as honour and independent system. I could do exactly same with feminst oriented and non feministed oriented system.

Thanx for the advices, but I am not the one writing the paper, I am just the prove-reader ^__^

And to be fair, I didn't read the articles she found closely either, because it is quite technical with lots of statistic that I didn't want to bother myself with. I just thought the idea is interesting; those different cultural values seem to account for a lot of disagreements online that I've observed.

-Cody

Jock Armstrong
8th July 2003, 00:59
I was raised pretty traditionally in Scotland [ in the sixties and seventies- gad, I'm old]. My folks rarely clipped me and most of that was before the age of nine, around 3-4. I was still a ghastly child but I kept it under control mostly. The classic thing was my dad NEVER hit me-mum was the one to avoid. Weilding a house slipper "baffy" she was hell on wheels. Mind you we all loved each other. It was pretty much the perfect family. As for chaps getting nekkid- they can leave their statements at home. Nothing wrong with the physical if folks are too dumb for words.

BTW Cody- I want to go to that party - shaved? Nekkid? Aaaaaaaauuuurrrrrggghhh, drool, wheres me pills......:beer:

Shitoryu Dude
8th July 2003, 01:27
Hey, she's coming to my party first! Got some ribs for the BBQ, a stocked liquor cabinet.....need to borrow a video camera :cool:

:beer:

Cody
8th July 2003, 02:58
Originally posted by Shitoryu Dude
Hey, she's coming to my party first! Got some ribs for the BBQ, a stocked liquor cabinet.....need to borrow a video camera :cool:

:beer:

That's all fine and good; but do you have enough Hermans Dark Lager in your fridge?

:beer:

Jock Armstrong
8th July 2003, 03:30
Herman's dark it is- I'll arrange a case or three...............damn your eyes shitoryu dude! Custard pies at ten paces you fiend..........:beer:

Vapour
8th July 2003, 03:48
Originally posted by Cody


Thanx for the advices, but I am not the one writing the paper, I am just the prove-reader ^__^

And to be fair, I didn't read the articles she found closely either, because it is quite technical with lots of statistic that I didn't want to bother myself with. I just thought the idea is interesting; those different cultural values seem to account for a lot of disagreements online that I've observed.

-Cody

Just to give you a bit to think about. Substitute "your kids" with "your wife" in the quote from the link I posted.

http://maddox.xmission.com/beat.html

"Remember: never take ¤¤¤¤ from your wife. You make payments on the house, utilities, her clothes, and her food. You OWN her. If she don't like it, she can move out. If you love your wife, love her enough to beat her so that she don't behave like idiot."

"people don't know the difference between dicipline and abuse."

Rather than thinking in term of "honour" you could think in term of how women(wife/daughter) are independent (economic, social and phycological), which in turn explain "independent system".

Shitoryu Dude
8th July 2003, 06:45
We're getting hung up on something as silly as a brand of beer? Oh, PLEASE!! :rolleyes: Far more interesting things than beer are to be going on, and getting my hands on top quality brew by the case is the least of my worries ;)

Dueling with custard pies? Hmmm, you don't know that "The Dude" plays for keeps when it comes to hot naked chicks looking for a bikini line trim :cool:

:beer:

Cody
8th July 2003, 07:54
Originally posted by Vapour


Just to give you a bit to think about. Substitute "your kids" with "your wife" in the quote from the link I posted.

http://maddox.xmission.com/beat.html

"Remember: never take ¤¤¤¤ from your wife. You make payments on the house, utilities, her clothes, and her food. You OWN her. If she don't like it, she can move out. If you love your wife, love her enough to beat her so that she don't behave like idiot."

"people don't know the difference between dicipline and abuse."

Rather than thinking in term of "honour" you could think in term of how women(wife/daughter) are independent (economic, social and phycological), which in turn explain "independent system".


I am aware that "honor culture" and "independent culture" are just blanket terms and are somewhat inaccurate; most groups labeled as "honor culture" do have economically independent women. However, I think the terms (honor/ indenepdence) are meant to be social terms.

I don't like stereotyping people, but I still think a lot of those observations (correlations between H-culture/ I-culture and "domestic violence") hold water. From people I met online, and also from exchange/ esl students I meet on campus, there is a noticeble difference in their value ethos. People from the south do impress me as having much more tolerance for violence, or having more willingness to use force as a way to solve problems.

However, I don't think ANY CULTURE condone the type of "treatment" you quoted. I am sure you only take that site as a joke? If I were to take it seriously, it would be equally offensive, be it applied to children or women ... even though I consider myself from HBS (Spend most of my life in Hong Kong)

One last thing, my roomate's paper is about domestic violence in Latin America. We looked into Honor culture VS Independence culture mostly because it has been well researched and she can get a lot of data and ideas off it. So I wouldn't lose sleep over validity of such classification.

Thanx for your thoughts!

:toast:

-Cody

Cody
8th July 2003, 07:59
Originally posted by Jock Armstrong
Herman's dark it is- I'll arrange a case or three...............damn your eyes shitoryu dude! Custard pies at ten paces you fiend..........:beer:

If you want to come over to Vancouver Island, you can probably get much cheaper Hermans, you can also join our Summer aikido retreat, featuring throwing nubile beginners into the lake at 7:30am after meditation, for our "misogi" tradition :D Oh, and after our 1000 boken swing practice, we usually all head to the dock for a full sun tan anyway :D

No custard pie contast though :nono: I want an even tan :p

Cody
8th July 2003, 08:02
Originally posted by Cody

blah blah blah ... (correlations between H-culture/ I-culture and "domestic violence")blah blah blah

-Cody

I am rereading this, and seriously, I didn't realize how bad it sounded :D :D :D

Jock Armstrong
8th July 2003, 08:04
Actually cody, you raise an interesting point about "duelling" cultures. The Latino community still has [or suffers from] that machismo thing^ its a put up or shut up thing. The man is honore bound to fight for his "honour". The southern US gets it from those Scots/Irish and English [and in LOuisiana the french] who arrived early when duelling was still big in Europe. The reasons are usually the same- women.

Jock Armstrong
8th July 2003, 08:16
You're teasing me now I'M sure! I'M in Japan- I could always swim....I got six weeks vacation...... It's only the pacific!

If I ever get to canada I'll take you up on the training for sure.

"Dude" I too am serious- so serious in fact that I will change weapons to cream buns. I was quite the bun slinger in the old days..........:beer:

Cody
8th July 2003, 08:18
It is interesting how "colonies" hang on to older values they (or their ancestors) bring in with them, isn't it?

I don't speak a lot of french or spanish, but my both of my professors observed that Canadien French is very "old" compared to French spoken in France. In France, the language keeps evolving, or "stream-lining" into more sloppy but simple to use. In Canada, people seem to hang on and resist any change.

The same goes for Spanish. Spanish in Spain evolved much faster than Spanish in Latin America (or so my professor observed)

And others also observed that New Zealand is much more british than Britain is.

And if you find someone who learnt English in Hong Kong, I bet they will actually know and use subjunctive mood! They will also say "dreamt" instead of "dreamed" etc.

So maybe the Honor culture folks are just old fashioned. (me included :cry: )

-Cody

P.S. So Jock, when are you coming to our nudist aikido retreat? :D

kage110
8th July 2003, 09:48
I thought I would offer my thoughts on the Scottish and New Zealand experience and the 'Honour/Independence' split. [I live in Scotland now but lived for a number of years in New Zealand as a child.]

I would say that the modern UK model is much more along the lines of an 'Independence' society now. Obviously this is not a hard and fast rule wherever you go but while a number of men will act in a way that suggests they 'own' 'their' women the majority of women will not see life through this filter. A lot of UK women are fiercely independent.

NZ on the other hand has much more of the Honour model about it though this is changing as the women get more independent and the men catch up with the fact that they don't hold a monopoly on brains/ability/whatever. My mother was born a NZer and left in the early 70s to find a male who would take her seriously.

Modern NZ society has also adopted many values from the USA as well so it is not entirely down to a colony keeping the older values of the coloniser.

It should be noted that there is a high level of domestic abuse in both countries and the quoted figures in Scotland are that 1 in 4 women are/have been victims of domestic violence.

Rogier
8th July 2003, 10:58
I am from IBS. It’s not okay, it’s just wrong to hit women/ children, regardless of what they do.

four people voted for this?? Are there really people around who would NEVER hit a woman regardless of what they do??. This means that if a woman were trying to kill you... you would not hit her???

Iain
8th July 2003, 11:35
Originally posted by Rogier


four people voted for this?? Are there really people around who would NEVER hit a woman regardless of what they do??. This means that if a woman were trying to kill you... you would not hit her???

I would have to absolutely loose it before I hit a woman. It's not that sometimes I think they don't need or deserve a kicking (just like men) I just can't do it. Women are like cryptonite to me. I loose all volition when faced with a situation in which I would hit a woman. Yes, if I flipped out and did the blank faced eye-gouging insane rage thing, I probably could, or if it were life and death, I sincerely hope I could, but under most circumstances, I simply cannot. Anyone else have this problem?

Jock Armstrong
9th July 2003, 02:03
Just as fast as I can build a raft my dear!! :beer:

Nude aikido.....Cody, you are my goddess!!!!! ;) Pick me! Pick me!


Heart rate soaring.... aaaarghhh.............me pills......

I'll get to Canada one day.........

Mike Williams
9th July 2003, 11:01
Originally posted by Iain
Anyone else have this problem?


Yep. Decades of social conditioning. Like you, I would have to be in absolute mortal fear before I could hit a woman (I think).

Kids on the other hand... :smash:

Cheers,

Mike