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View Full Version : The Gi or Do-Gi debate......



Steve Williams
6th July 2003, 17:57
Seems that this is a debate which will go on a little (it is debated in a lot of forums).


So is it "gi" or is it "do-gi"........



In my (very limited) understanding of Japanese, I thought that "Gi" meant "suit/uniform"....
"Do" meant "way"......

So "Gi" is uniform, "Do-Gi" means uniform of the way.......


Are you still with me?



So the term "Karate Gi" means "uniform of karate"? Correct?

And the term "Karate Do-Gi" means "uniform of the way of karate"? Correct?
(I know I did not translate "karate"....)

So why such a big thing (yes Tony,Kehoe, this is directed to you) about the term Do-Gi, and not Gi.........




And why do I get a load of responses from google if I put in "Karate Gi"....... OK I get a load of responses for "Karate Do-Gi" as well....... but does this mean that both are correct??

Gene Williams
6th July 2003, 18:12
If you are going to argue with Tony, you may as well find a jackass to bray against. Can you just pull rank on him like I do with obnoxious students and tell him to shut up? Gene

Steve Williams
6th July 2003, 18:21
I didn't ask about arguing with Tony Kehoe... I asked abut the usage of Gi and Do-Gi.......

Don't troll Gene, it doesn't become you.....

Shitoryu Dude
6th July 2003, 20:01
My sensei is Japanese and so is his sensei and most of his high-ranking karate buddies. They all call it a gi. So do the Japanese people I work with (I work for a Japanese company).

You can all go argue with them. :D

:beer:

Rob Alvelais
6th July 2003, 21:47
Originally posted by Shitoryu Dude
My sensei is Japanese and so is his sensei and most of his high-ranking karate buddies. They all call it a gi. So do the Japanese people I work with (I work for a Japanese company).

You can all go argue with them. :D


Same here, except that I don't work for a Japanese company.

In all my years in karate, I've never been called on my use of the word "Gi" to refer to my karate uniform/Keiko gi/Do gi/whatever by any Japanese karate/aikido/judo instrs. In my experience it's only been the pointy-headed caucasian karate people who have lived in Japan and speak some Japanese.

Rob

tmanifold
6th July 2003, 23:12
Gi is just a general term IMO. When wearing a Judo uniform it is a judogi, etc. I think do-gi is probably a shortened for of that or in the case of karate, karate-dogi.

Tony

David T Anderson
7th July 2003, 01:31
Hmmm... why do you suppose Hiroshi Ikeda of Bujin Design [who appears to be Japanese] call the uniforms he actually manufactures and sells 'dogi'? Could it be that both terms are acceptable?

[I'm just being difficult here... I call the darned things 'gi' myself...]

P Goldsbury
7th July 2003, 01:57
I suppose it depends on the cultural context. I have just consulted the 'Kojien' Japanese dictionary, according to which the correct term is keikogi (ŒmŒÃ’…) and my computer dictionary immediately came up with the correct Chinese characters. 'Dougi' does not appear in this dictionary and when I typed the word in Japanese kana, my dictionary came up with six possibilities, none of which was correct. My own students here always use 'keikogi', probably because 'dougi' has other established meanings in Japanese, such as underwear, a motion at a meeting, moral principles, and synonymy.

On the other hand, like 'judo' and 'aikido', the term has been given an established use outside the Japanese language and English-speaking budoka refer to it as a dogi or just a gi. The purists might wince, but language users create new vocabulary as they go along.

Best regards,

PwarYuex
7th July 2003, 04:59
I thought the majority of Japanese people (non-martial artists), call it a budo-gi. (They say b-do-gi, as in the tend to say budo very quickly, without the "u" sound).

And I thought gi referred to the style of clothes martial artists wear, rather the idea of it being a uniform.

Mike Williams
7th July 2003, 10:52
I study two arts that, while they have their origins in Japan, have developed independently here in the west. Both use the word 'Gi' (as a loan-word, I suppose), and it would be culturally inappropriate to call them 'Dogi'. In fact I'd get a lot of blank stares if I did.

I don't doubt that Dogi or Keikogi is correct Japanese, and I guess it would be more accurate for my two MA styles to call it training gear or clobber or pyjamas - but common useage is Gi, so Gi it shall be.

(Interestingly, the Brazilians also call them 'kimonos' - which is probably more correct from a strictly grammatical point of view, even if it describes a different garment)

Cheers,

Mike

Striking Hand
7th July 2003, 10:59
I would go with whatever is the norm where you live and especially where you train.

In worst case a quick explanation can be given.

Don't believe into forcing people into using certain terms that they are uncomfortable with, even though they might be more "acccurate".

Cheers.

MarkF
7th July 2003, 11:48
"Gi" goes back at least as far as I do in judo, about forty years, and it seemed then to have taken a foothold. My original teacher wasn't Japanese, but he learned his judo in the airforce while stationed in Japan (I don't know where, that isn't a question one asks at twelve, I guess, but at least some of the time was at the Kodokan). He said it was permissable to employ "gi" in place of "judogi."

The "gi" in judogi or keikogi (perfectly usable in describing judo training clothes, but judogi is heard most often) comes from a verb "to put on" or something similar to that, perhaps "kiru" (someone who knows Japanese can clear that up) or similar sounding word)? In that context, then it probably isn't technically correct to call it anything but dogi, judogi, or keikogi. If it is a verb or part of one, by itself it shouldn't be used as a noun.

With me, it just became habit to call it a dogi. I'm still not sure how or why except that my teacher through most of my training was isei and he had a hard time with English so he probably called it dogi (I don't remember him employing it in any special way but I'd heard his washing instructions so often I have it welded onto my brain. His Japanese was very good, as well.;)
*****

Speaking of new words, a bunch of new expressions were just added to Merriam-Webster, I hear. Phat, dope (the word that means outstanding or great, etc.), frankenfood, etc.

BTW: It doesn't matter how the people who originated the word use it, many are young enough that it is the only way they have heard it used (in reference to budo, most probably don't have a clue), and who says they are correct because they are Japanese (or nisei)? Some use "jitsu" as in "ju-jitsu" in some styles of the modern incarnation and in Japan. It doesn't mean they completely understand their own culture and history totally, nor does it mean they all speak correctly. Picking up on a new usage of words is as human as mankind itself even when it is wrong. Good grammar all the time is difficult enough, but to be perfect, well, I doubt many can claim that (except Tony K., perhaps).

In the scheme of things, well, it makes for long threads (and if you want to extend the discussion over the use of -ka as in judoka, most use that wrongly as well. Most under the grade of 4-dan or 5-dan, are called judoshugyosha, and it was Kawaishi Mikonosuke who said "In Japan, the word "judoka" refers only to one of great expertise but here in France, it is used to describe anyone who plays judo (only he said it in French)." I suppose we can blame him for that. He is probably the one who introduced most of the colored obi to the dan-I system of grading, and perhaps the kyu-grading of mudansha as well.

Lots of blame to go 'round in the name game. Let's do shirley...


Mark

StanLee
7th July 2003, 12:51
Hang on, if there are loads of people out there in the Japanese MA community calling their practice outfit "gi" and have been doing so for over a few decades. Then I think Tony "gi police" Kehoe has a long and hard battle ahead of him!

Stan:D

monkeyboy_ssj
7th July 2003, 14:38
right this is how it goes.

Do means 'way' or 'road' in Japanese, so basically a 'Dogi' is clothes for a journey, i.e. the journey through martial arts.

'Gi' is a sound that has a meaning but only becomes a word when attached with an other compound.

It's like calling your 'trousers' 'ousers'.

I think Tony gets funny about it because it's not a real word. It's like japanese people coming over and calling a three pieces suit a "blooby nu-nu" maybe all the japanese people would know what it ment but it's not a real word.

But at the same time i think it's fine calling it a "Gi" because it's a loan word.

Enfield
7th July 2003, 23:26
Originally posted by MarkF
The "gi" in judogi or keikogi (perfectly usable in describing judo training clothes, but judogi is heard most often) comes from a verb "to put on" or something similar to that, perhaps "kiru" (someone who knows Japanese can clear that up) or similar sounding word)?Yep, kiru written with the appropriate kanji is "don/put on (the torso)."

In that context, then it probably isn't technically correct to call it anything but dogi, judogi, or keikogi. If it is a verb or part of one, by itself it shouldn't be used as a noun.Using verb stems as nouns is quite acceptable and rather common in Japanese:
tsuku (v) = thrust
tsuki (n) = thrust
keru (v) = kick
keri (n) = kick
nageru (v) = throw
nage (n) = throw
osaeru (v) = press down, restrain
osae (n) = restraint, pin
tsukuru (v) = make, create
tsukuri (n) = creation, making
karu (v) = mow
kari (n) = "reap"
harau (v) = sweep, wipe
harai (n) = sweep
The list goes on and on. Pretty much any verb can be nominalized this way.

Anyway, I've only ever heard keikogi and dogi used by native Japanese speakers when speaking Japanese. And those who used dogi were martial artists.

Tripitaka_of_AA
7th July 2003, 23:55
I asked Mrs Tripitaka. She said "no-one says Gi, that's just wrong". We discussed "keikogi" and she said that this translates to practice-wear, and might be used for all sorts of hobbies (from playing a musical instrument to training as a boxer). She pondered whether this indicated a predisposition to an alternative outfit for performance - training-wear/performance-wear... then we decided that as Martial Arts are "perpetual training" with no intention to perform, perhaps Keikogi would be right, after all.

But in the end she said "Everyone says Dogi. No-one says Gi. I suppose that there are probably special words for the parts of a Kendo uniform, etc but "gi" is just wrong".


Mrs Tripi didn't train in any budo while she was growing up in Japan, but most of her schoolmates did. She is no scholar of the language, she just talks it. Her opinion counts for as little as you'd grant it. Or as much.


Just out of interest. Everyone in the UK is now familiar with Karaoke. This phenomenon may never have hit the US, I don't know, but it was imported from Japan and is very popular. Everyone here pronounces it "carry-oh-ki" even though they spell it the proper Japanese way. No-one ever pronounces it the way that the Japanese do. No-one ever translates it into the english phrase that it is said to be derived from, "Empty Orchestra". Language is a living, metamorphosing twisted disaster-zone for the literal-minded sticklers for rules.

Gene Williams
9th July 2003, 23:08
To the tune of , "Get Along Little Doggie"

Whoopie kiai yo
Get along little dogi
Its your misfortune and none of my own
Whoopie kiai yo
Get along little dogi
Shorinji Kempo will be your new home.
-------------------------------

To the tune of "Bury Me Not on the Lone Prairie"

Bury me not in a simple gi
For Kehoe will howl
That its a keikogi.

Bury me not in a simple gi
For the word police
Will not set me free.
-----------------

To the tune of "Streets of Laredo"

As I was out walking the streets of Laredo
As I was out walking Laredo one day
I saw a young Ed Boyd a wearin' a dogi
A wearin' a dogi as white as could be.

Now Ed Boyd he told me that Kehoe had shot him
Had shot hm for callin' a dogi a gi
And now he lay dyin' all dressed in his dogi
All dressed in his dogi as white as could be.

Now come gather round me all you young rounders
And hear the sad story of poor Fast Eddie
He now lies a bleedin' for Kehoe has shot him
Has shot him because he did not say dogi.

Mike Williams
9th July 2003, 23:34
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Cheers,

Mike

Nyuck3X
10th July 2003, 03:06
Quote from MonkeyBoy:


Do means 'way' or 'road' in Japanese, so basically a 'Dogi' is clothes for a journey, i.e. the journey through martial arts.

'Gi' is a sound that has a meaning but only becomes a word when attached with an other compound.

It's like calling your 'trousers' 'ousers'.
.

Language is alive and always changing, much like combat.
What is technically correct isn't always how it works
in the real world.

The word "diss" is not really a word, but a slang word for
disrespect. I suggest that gi, although not "correct"
is now slang for the garb we wear. Scuba isn't really a word,
it's an achronym. It stands for "self contained underwater
breathing apparatus". Most kids thinks it's the name of
the sport like soccer. Heck, a few years ago, spam was
a tasty luncheon meat.;)

We may not like it, but what can you do about it.

Gene Williams
10th July 2003, 04:26
Ray, Did you know that they actually have a Spam convention every year? I'm serious...saw it on Discovery. It is complete with cook offs using Spam recipes, Spam painting, Spam sculpting, Spam wrestling, and crafts using Spam cans. Yummm!! Gene

Tortoise
10th July 2003, 08:09
I think it's interesting that in native Japanese, as far as I can tell, "gi" is never heard by itself. This is because, the "gi" in "judogi" is the aspirated version of "ki", from the verb "kiru". When "ki" ’… or ˆß?@appears at the beginning of a word, it's unchanged as in "kimono", but when it follows another syllable it's usually hardened, as in "mizugi" ?…’…, or swimsuit. I've never heard "gi" by itself here, nor have I heard "ki". Although some verbs can be appropriately nominalized by replacing the "u" or "ru" ending with "i" (like "keru" into "keri"), with "kiru" it's not at all common. But, this is when speaking in Japanese. In English, "gi" seems definitely acceptable as a loan word, and since I've used it all throughout my life, I was genuinely surprised to find that most Japanese people didn't know what the hell I was talking about when I said "gi". Most of them thought I was talking about ‹`, which means "ceremony".

Just my .03 yen.

Matt Berends

StanLee
10th July 2003, 08:28
Lovely Spaaam! Wonderful Spaaam!
Lovely Spaaam! Wonderful Spam.

Spa-a-a-a-a-a-a-am.
Spa-a-a-a-a-a-a-am.
Spa-a-a-a-a-a-a-am.
Spa-a-a-a-a-a-a-am.

Lovely Spaaam! (Lovely Spam!)
Lovely Spaaam! (Lovely Spam!)
Lovely Spaaam!

Spaaam, Spaaam, Spaaam, Spaaaaaam!

:D :D :D :D :D

Stan

Rogier
10th July 2003, 09:07
from Monty Python’s Flying Circus
Mr. Bun: Morning.

Waitress: Morning.

Mr. Bun: Well, what you got?

Waitress: Well, there's egg and bacon; egg, sausage and bacon; egg and spam; egg, bacon and spam; egg, bacon, sausage and spam; spam, bacon, sausage and spam; spam, egg, spam, spam, bacon and spam; spam, sausage, spam, spam, spam, bacon, spam, tomato and spam; spam, spam, spam, egg and spam; (Vikings start singing in background) spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, baked beans, spam, spam, spam and spam.

Vikings: Spam, spam, spam, spam, lovely spam, lovely spam.

Waitress: (cont) or lobster thermador ecrovets with a bournaise
sauce, served in the purple salm or with chalots and overshies, garnished with truffle pate, brandy, a fried egg on top and spam.

Mrs. Bun: Have you got anything without spam?

Waitress: Well, there's spam, egg, sausage and spam. That's not got much spam in it.

Mrs. Bun: I don't want any spam!

Mr. Bun: Why can't she have egg, bacon, spam and sausage?

Mrs. Bun: That's got spam in it.

Mr. Bun: It hasn't got as much spam in it as spam, egg, sausage and spam has it?

Mrs. Bun: (over Vikings starting again) Could you do me egg, bacon, spam and sausage without the spam then?

Waitress: Ech!

Mrs. Bun: What do you mean ech! I don't like spam!

Vikings: Lovely spam, wonderful spam....etc

Waitress: Shut up! Shut up! Shut up! Bloody vikings. You can't have egg, bacon, spam and sausage without the spam.

Mrs. Bun: I don't like spam!

Mr. Bun: Shh dear, don't cause a fuss. I'll have your spam. I love it. I'm having spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, baked beans, spam, spam, spam and spam. (starts Vikings off again)

Vikings: Lovely spam, wonderful spam...etc

Waitress: Shut up! Baked beans are off.

Mr. Bun: Well, can I have her spam instead of the baked beans?

Waitress: You mean spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, and spam?

Vikings: Lovely spam, wonderful spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam…….etc.., spam, spam! (in harmony)

Tripitaka of AA
10th July 2003, 12:44
Originally posted by Nyuck3X
Most kids thinks it's the name of
the sport like soccer

And "Soccer" is derived from "Association Football", so I am told.

monkeyboy_ssj
10th July 2003, 12:57
Originally posted by Nyuck3X


Language is alive and always changing, much like combat.
What is technically correct isn't always how it works
in the real world.

The word "diss" is not really a word, but a slang word for
disrespect. I suggest that gi, although not "correct"
is now slang for the garb we wear. Scuba isn't really a word,
it's an achronym. It stands for "self contained underwater
breathing apparatus". Most kids thinks it's the name of
the sport like soccer. Heck, a few years ago, spam was
a tasty luncheon meat.;)

We may not like it, but what can you do about it.

Yeah, i still call it a Gi. I was just trying to quote why some people don't like the slang word. I dare say in a couple of years it will be in the Oxford Dictionary.

p.s. There is no such sport as soccer, it's called Football :P

Gene Williams
10th July 2003, 13:55
I hate soccer...I mean I effing hate it:p

monkeyboy_ssj
10th July 2003, 15:25
It's not that bad...

Here's a question, why do ALL america sport have so many rules? and require all this tatical types of 'play'?

Come play some rubgy, american football without the padding :)

Kimpatsu
12th August 2003, 03:49
Originally posted by Shitoryu Dude
My sensei is Japanese and so is his sensei and most of his high-ranking karate buddies. They all call it a gi. So do the Japanese people I work with (I work for a Japanese company).

You can all go argue with them. :D

:beer:
I will, Harvey. I think you'll find that they're talking baby talk to you, because you're a gaijin too dumb to know the correct name. Take it from me: the correct Japanese is "dogi". For reasons I have explained before, you cannot say "gi"; it would have to be "ki", as the "k" sound only hardens to a "g" when there is a preceding syllable. That's why we also say keri-waza, but mawashi-geri. "Geri" alone means "diarrhoea". Which, just like "gi" as a pseudo-noun, is a load of crap...
Ask your coworkers straight out, and see what answer you get.

Kimpatsu
12th August 2003, 03:52
Originally posted by monkeyboy_ssj
Yeah, i still call it a Gi.
Then you are wrong. If a fully-grown adult kept calling a car a "vroom-vroom", you'd think they were retarded.
You know that "dogi" is correct and "gi" is wrong. Do you also say "moo-moo", "horsey-worsey", and "choo-choo"?
(I can't wait for the replies to this one.)

gendzwil
12th August 2003, 04:29
I asked my sensei about this sometime. He always says "kendogi" or "keikogi". He says "gi" is incorrect but is common North American usage and he's not troubled enough by it to correct anyone on it. I don't correct his english, which is way better than my Japanese but not idiomatic, so fair enough.

Kimpatsu
12th August 2003, 04:38
Originally posted by gendzwil
I asked my sensei about this sometime. He always says "kendogi" or "keikogi". He says "gi" is incorrect but is common North American usage and he's not troubled enough by it to correct anyone on it. I don't correct his english, which is way better than my Japanese but not idiomatic, so fair enough.
I rest my case, your honour.

ScottUK
12th August 2003, 15:42
Originally posted by monkeyboy_ssj
Come play some rubgy, american football without the padding :) Ah, another one who hasn't felt that so called 'padding' in your face! Go here:

http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20527&highlight=padding

...or go and try out for a UK American Football team...

monkeyboy_ssj
12th August 2003, 16:40
Originally posted by Kimpatsu
Then you are wrong. If a fully-grown adult kept calling a car a "vroom-vroom", you'd think they were retarded.
You know that "dogi" is correct and "gi" is wrong. Do you also say "moo-moo", "horsey-worsey", and "choo-choo"?
(I can't wait for the replies to this one.)

hehe! Tony's back! i missed you dude *sniff*, anyway

*Cracks Knuckles*

Yup, i can call it whatever i want. It does not matter what age you are, gi and dogi are not child to adult words. It's an westernised slang word used in martial arts.

Japanese people make up there own words from ours every single day, but we don't freak out about it. Does it not bother you that you seem to be the only one bothered by it?

So you never use any slang? I bet if you used some slang and i said "nope, you can't say that! It's not in the Oxford Dictionary."

Do you go up to Japanese kids in the street and tell them it's not "Ah! Kaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiiii!" or "KA Wa ii!" but "Kawaii" or the other strange ways they say it depending if they come from Sapporo or other districts.

Dude, you need to chill.

(Can't wait for the reply :D)

monkeyboy_ssj
12th August 2003, 16:43
Originally posted by ScottUK
Ah, another one who hasn't felt that so called 'padding' in your face! Go here:

http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20527&highlight=padding

...or go and try out for a UK American Football team...

No! those guyys will kill me! I'm more bothered with all the rules and special play they do...boring as hell!

Kimpatsu
12th August 2003, 16:54
Originally posted by monkeyboy_ssj
*Cracks Knuckles*
Don't do that; the sound is irritating.

Originally posted by monkeyboy_ssj
Yup, i can call it whatever i want.
And you'd be wrong.

`When _I_ use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.'
Using the word among yourselves doesn't make it right; it's merely a memetic of a mistake.

Originally posted by monkeyboy_ssj
It does not matter what age you are, gi and dogi are not child to adult words. It's an westernised slang word used in martial arts.
No, it's just plain wrong. The English would be "uniform".

Originally posted by monkeyboy_ssj
Japanese people make up there own words from ours every single day, but we don't freak out about it. Does it not bother you that you seem to be the only one bothered by it?
No, the differnce between loanwords such as "maika-" and "abekku" is that they have entered the language as is, to describe different ideas. The Japanese don't use gairaigo as English; they use it as Japanese words that originiated in Western languages. You, however, are using a Japanese word to express a Japanese concept. And it's wrong. If you really thought it wsa slang, why do you use it to Japanese people? We've already seen here that it confuses them.

Originally posted by monkeyboy_ssj
So you never use any slang? I bet if you used some slang and i said "nope, you can't say that! It's not in the Oxford Dictionary."
Slang is included in the OED. As I said, however, "gi" is not slang; it's just plain wrong. You're not using it as slang; be honest: until you heard it here, you used "gi" in the belief that it was the correct Japanese word, right?

Originally posted by monkeyboy_ssj
Do you go up to Japanese kids in the street and tell them it's not "Ah! Kaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiiii!" or "KA Wa ii!" but "Kawaii" or the other strange ways they say it depending if they come from Sapporo or other districts.
I think you're confusing slang with dialect.
But the very fact you chose to use a children's pronunciation in an attempt to draw a parallel undermines your very case--you see, it IS childish to say "gi".

Originally posted by monkeyboy_ssj
Dude, you need to chill.
No, you need to be concerned more about correct grammar, spelling, and vocabulary. Which are important, you know.

monkeyboy_ssj
12th August 2003, 17:15
*Click*
*Crack*
*Crack*
*Click*

:P

Ok, what about whan they say "Fight O!" when it should be "Fight" ?

Go on, you better start correct the japanese nation.

I use Dobuk to be honest, but whatever...

It is a loan word, It is wrong japanese, and you are right in saying that, and i can kind of see where you're coming from but there is nothing wrong with saying it as Gi is western language.

Languages adapt all the time, Sheesh, why does it bother you? I've ask my Brother Who is an English teacher and he said that it's an adapted word for western use. Nothing wrong with that, as it is a word borrowed and it is not proper English (not in the Oxford), but it still means something in a selected group it is therefore slang.

You've got to remember most westerners that try and speak japanese just sounds laughable, Because you DON'T have a japanese accent, sure you can put one on but it still sounds strange. And Gi is alot easyier to say than Do-gi. I could be picky and say your writing it wrong, and you should have a line over the 'O' but frankly i don't care.

It's so silly. You call it what you will, and i'll do like wise. And that's just the way it is.

I don't go around and tell Americans to put a 'u' in color becuase they are writing it wrong?

ja,

Soulend
12th August 2003, 18:16
Reminds me of when my dad would become infuriated when Americans would pronounce Notre Dame 'Note-er-daym'. As it is a French phrase used for a French cathedral, it would follow that it would be pronounced in the French way, meaning "our Lady", instead of "note-er-daym", which doesn't mean a damn thing.

I prefer 'dogi', or 'keikogi', but someone calling it a 'gi' doesn't so much bother me as it makes me chuckle inwardly after having read Tony's corrections.

mews
12th August 2003, 19:41
20+ years of karate = gi for karate uniform, sometimes 'karate gi', native japanese instructor.

naginata - my sensei uses keikogi, and is a native japanese.

different arts, two instructors from different areas of japan.

we all know what they mean, and do not wear mistakenly wear the green and yellow spandex to class.

at this point 'gi' has become an english loan-word, with plural inflection - eg: i brought 3 gis to the training camp.

it has also become part of a multiword verb: to get gi'd up, as in the way you would say 'get geared up' to mean putting on sparring gear.

so, it's a loan-word if you are speaking english, and thinking of it as an English word, and inflecting it as an english word.

it's still a japanese word inserted into an english sentence, if you are using it as a japanese word would inflect.

consider the great 'one sensei, two sensei(s?)' debate...

it's not going to keep me up at night, worrying.

mew

bruceb
12th August 2003, 22:39
I don't know, at least the pants are loose enough they don't tear so easy, and everyone has same PJs, so it does become a uniform code of dress.

By the way what military force are we in anyway? Is this the local militia or national guard?

(Yeah ... I am kidding ... this Gi or Do-gi discussion is absolutely ridiculus.)

Steve Williams
12th August 2003, 23:15
Originally posted by bruceb
this Gi or Do-gi discussion is absolutely ridiculus.)

Its ridiculous you yanks and that missing u....... ;)


And this thread is not ridiculous......
Its:

Laughable..... definately

Pointless..... probably

Superfluous...... maybe

But not ridiculous. :)

ScottUK
12th August 2003, 23:26
When I talk about martial arts, I use: 'Defence'.
When I talk about american footy, I use: 'Defense'.

Be flexible.

Tony, you're in Japan - use what you think is the correct wording.
Everyone over here - gang-rape the language if you like (as usual).

It really doesn't make a difference...

Can't you boys play well together?

Scott

renfield_kuroda
13th August 2003, 00:46
Just to make things interesting, when we say keikogi, we are actually only referring to the top (jacket) of the practice uniform. The bottom is separately called a hakama. So the entire package, the whole 'uniform' in English, is called what in Japanese? I'd never thought about it until now.

Also, this is kind of related to a thread under Language. There are Japanese words that became English, mostly right after WWII. My grandfather was personally responsible for taking the word sukoshii and spreading the English word skosh.

So, when you are speaking English, I think it's acceptable to say 'gi' as that is the English variant of the Japanese loan word.
When you are speaking Japanese, it's correct to say dogi or keikogi, as that is the proper Japanese word.

And finally, I asked my linguistics friend about this kind of issue and his reply was:
"Language is defined by those who speak it. If everyone uses a word, it is by definition acceptable, even if it is 'wrong' according the currently accepted grammar/linguistic standards. The dictionary writers do not put a word in the dictionary, which is then used. They update the dictionaries with words already in common usage, and they're usually a couple of years behind (ever tried to write a dictionary?), which is why the latest words will not be found in the dictionary right now. And that's also how standard English of years ago is 'wrong' according to the rules of today, as will today's English be 'wrong' according the rules of the future. Languages change because people change the way they use language."

The short version: gi/dogi/keikogi, it's all good!

Regards,
r e n

Kimpatsu
13th August 2003, 01:43
"Gi" is not a loan word, it is simply wrong, for the reason that I stated before: When you have all used it, until I cam along to tell you otherwise, you have mistakenly believed that it's a real Japanese word, don't you?
"Fighto" is not in the same category, because the problem comes from the Japanese inability to end words with glottal stops other than "n". Can you roll your R's like the Italians? Speak like you've got a mouthful of mush as in Russian? Or pronounce !Kung correctly, like its native speakers?
Notre Dame is French, and should be pronounced accordingly. Although why the Fighting Irish chose a French name is beyond me. Why not simply call it "Our Lady"?
Steve Sensei: The reason why the Americans don't spell "flavour" or "colour" etc., correctly is because they're so selfish, there's no room for U in their language... ;)
(Now watch the answers to that one flood in!)
Best,

Nyuck3X
13th August 2003, 02:08
Mr. Kehoe,
Not trying to get your Irish up, (my apologies to the Irish but
I couldn't resist) are you saying that because of the inability
to say the "n" sound that it's ok to make-up a word? How about
Pokemon? (Poke: pocket, mon: monster)I don't like the inappropriate
use of language either, but it is something that is going to happen
whether we like it or not. We make allowances for the Japanese to
say Mr.Basebaru and they allow us to use the slang word gi.
I often tell women that they cannot refer to the man they are
about to wed as a fiancee because fiancee is the feminine.
Fiance is the masculine.

I agree it's incorrect, but language changes.
If it didn't, we'd discussing this in latin.

Don vivimos, vivimos.

With respect,

Kimpatsu
13th August 2003, 02:45
Sure, and wouldn't my Oirish be in fine fettle? 'Tis the grand man ye are, sor.
Seriously, though, Ray, as I keep saying, "gi" is not slang; it is uttered by the likes of MAists in the sincere and utterly incorrect belief that it is a genuine Japanese word. That's what sets it apart from "Fighto" or Pokémon.
I've siad that repeatedly on this threat, and no one's rebutted it yet. Why do you all ignore it? Because it undermines your argument?
What I want to do is raise consciousness regarding this misuse of the Japanese, and have the meme spread. E-budo is a good starting point. And I'll continue to correct people who say "gi", regardless.

Nyuck3X
13th August 2003, 05:16
I concede that it is not a Japanese word unless coupled with
the prefix keiko or do. Here I bow to your superior knowledge
of the language. :smilejapa (having very minimal knowledge myself)
However, having been enlightened, I now perceive a problem since
my Okinawan teachers have adopted the term. What do I tell my
students? Sensei is wrong?

Sometimes it's easier to pick my battles in order
to keep my blood pressure from skyrocketing.

Power to you Tony. Just keep the ticker in check.:beer:

Peace

joe yang
13th August 2003, 05:23
Just to clarify, are we talking about dobok? :D

StanLee
13th August 2003, 08:06
OMG, when did this get dragged back up again?

Mike Williams
13th August 2003, 09:55
Originally posted by Kimpatsu
"gi" is not slang; it is uttered by the likes of MAists in the sincere and utterly incorrect belief that it is a genuine Japanese word.

Not necessarily - I don't study Japanese MA except in the loosest sense, and I call it a gi. For all I knew 'Gi' could have been a Brazilian loan-word.

Anyway, you think this is bad, what about 'nunchuks'?
:p

Cheers,

Mike

Tripitaka of AA
13th August 2003, 09:56
In the Worlds before Kimpatsu,
Primal chaos reigned, Heaven sought order.
But the Phoenix can fly only when its feathers are grown.
The four worlds formed again and yet again,
As endless aeons wheeled and passed.
Time and the pure essences of Heaven,
The moistures of the Earth,
And the powers of the Sun and the Moon
All worked upon a certain rock - old as Creation,
And it magically became fertile.
That first egg was named Thought,
Tathagata Buddha, the Father Buddha,
Said, 'With our thoughts we make the world.'
Elemantal forces caused the egg to hatch,
from it then came a stone Pedant.
The nature of Kimpatsu was irrepressable!

:smilejapa :mst: :smilejapa

monkeyboy_ssj
13th August 2003, 10:19
Born on from an egg on a mountain top...

Coolies!

Tony, I'm going to start correcting everyone's japanese from now, Like putting hats/lines on things 'Dôgi' i mean if you're going to be picky.

And everyone must bow at the monitor before entering the website.

I'm only joking, because that would be silly. But still...

joe yang
13th August 2003, 11:13
I prefer "numchucks" myself! :D

StanLee
13th August 2003, 11:42
How about "lambchunks"? Great in a rogan josh!

:D

larsen_huw
13th August 2003, 11:52
Tony,

I've never once used the word 'gi' thinking it was proper Japanese. I learnt karate from an Australian who's English sounded dodgy ... let alone his Japanese! :) My pronounciation of the japanese names for the kicks and punches are probably hideously innacurate and to a native Japanese it probably sounds like i'm asking to clear the fungus from my toenails rather than do a reverse punch (who knows! i don't! :D ).

However, these terms, pronounced they way they were taught to me allow me to communicate with others who were taught by the same bloke. I can go up to someone else in the dojo and say 'mawashi-geri' and they will know i mean 'roundhouse kick', in the same way that if i say 'gi' they know i mean 'karate (in this case) uniform'. We don't know and i honestly don't care weather it's correct Japanese, or even Japanese at all, it's merely a way of being understood .... and 'gi' is much quicker to say than 'karate uniform' and i'm a lazy b*****d at heart! :D

Stan,

Rogan Josh???? ..... give me a Madras any day of the week!

Mike Williams
13th August 2003, 12:02
Originally posted by larsen_huw
Rogan Josh???? ..... give me a Madras any day of the week!

You'd better come along to the next e-budo London piss-up then. We can drink beer, eat curry and misappropriate foreign words.

Cheers,

Mike

larsen_huw
13th August 2003, 12:07
When might such an event be?

I'm next in the capital for my Mum's 50th ... start of October. However, i have a fast car and a manical driving style ... the promise of beer, curry and misappropriated foreign words could get me from Brum to London in 2 hours! :D

monkeyboy_ssj
13th August 2003, 12:54
Originally posted by Mike Williams
You'd better come along to the next e-budo London piss-up then. We can drink beer, eat curry and misappropriate foreign words.

Cheers,

Mike

Wayyyhey!!! Orriga toe deskaaa sukei baka jigara! *burp*

Lamb chucks is what i do when i get back and feel abit green behind the gils.

Right Boyos, the next drinking curry meet will be coming soon.

I need to find out when people can definatly make it, i can make it apart from monday nights due to learning stuff for next grading but anything else would be cool.

I've found some more cooler bars and if i get some numbers i'll get organizing it.

Topbanana!

ScottUK
13th August 2003, 13:20
God, am I the only English bloke in history who doesn't like Indian food? :(

monkeyboy_ssj
13th August 2003, 13:26
Yes, now go to Nigeria and claim Doplomatic Immunity.

We will see what people want to eat, we may go for something different, you do like Beer don't you???

PaulP
13th August 2003, 16:59
Just call it a Martial Arts (Judo, Karate, Kendo, Shaolin, etc) uniform and be done with it.

Soulend
13th August 2003, 17:05
Or, like the rednecks down here, a 'kurotty suit'. The actual style practiced is irrelevent, as it's all 'kurotty' to them!

renfield_kuroda
14th August 2003, 01:30
Originally posted by Kimpatsu
"Gi" is not a loan word, it is simply wrong, for the reason that I stated before: When you have all used it, until I cam along to tell you otherwise, you have mistakenly believed that it's a real Japanese word, don't you?


Well, here we are at a stalemate, I reckon.
I posit that any word taken from a foreign language and used regularly in English is a loan word, and therefore any modification to said word when used in English is legitimate. The intention of the speaker aside, when speaking English and using a word borrowed from Japanese, with consistent and regular use, that word becomes English. Just like 'skosh' (not sukoshi) and 'honcho' (not hancho) are legitimate English words.
Tony argues that, given the speaker's intention to use a Japanse words correctly, failing to use said word correctly (according to the rules of the Japanese language) results in unacceptable usage.
I counter that this happens all the time in English, and is legitimate. An example: we all know that "c'est la vie" is French for 'such is life' or 'what can you do?', but most Americans (myself included) couldn't possibly spell it correctly let alone pronounce it. More examples:
bona fide, carte blanche, coup de grâce, de facto, de jure, en masse, faux pas, je ne sais quoi, tour de force
All of these loan words (and more) are most certainly not pronounced (or even used) correctly according to the original language, but do to common usage in English, they have become accepted as English.

So, perhaps we are both right? The English loan word 'gi' is fine, but the correct Japanese word is 'dogi'?

Regards,
r e n

monkeyboy_ssj
14th August 2003, 10:26
Good post Ren,

I think in some way we are all right, just leave it lik that :)

Cheers

Kimpatsu
17th August 2003, 11:20
Originally posted by Nyuck3X
I concede that it is not a Japanese word unless coupled with
the prefix keiko or do. Here I bow to your superior knowledge
of the language. :smilejapa (having very minimal knowledge myself)
However, having been enlightened, I now perceive a problem since
my Okinawan teachers have adopted the term. What do I tell my
students? Sensei is wrong?
As I said, it's because your Japanese sensei is humouring you. If you point out that this doesn't help, he'll use the correct term, and this will gradually infect all the students under him, like any other meme.

Originally posted by Nyuck3X
Sometimes it's easier to pick my battles in order
to keep my blood pressure from skyrocketing.
Really? I just hit things.

Originally posted by Nyuck3X
Power to you Tony. Just keep the ticker in check.:beer:
My ticker checked out fine. My mental health, however... :D

Gene Williams
17th August 2003, 11:46
Gi,gi,gi,gi,gi,gi,gi,gi,gi,gi,gi,gi,gi,gi,gi,gi,gi,gi,gi,gi,gi,gi,gi,gi...gigigigigigigigigigigigigi gigigigigigigigigigigiigigigiigigigi. I had a girlfriend named Gigi, but I don't think she was Japanese.:D :p :cool:

Kimpatsu
17th August 2003, 12:04
Originally posted by Gene Williams
[BGi,gi,gi,gi,gi,gi,gi,gi,gi,gi,gi,gi,gi,gi,gi,gi,gi,gi,gi,gi,gi,gi,gi,gi...gigigigigigigigigigigigig igigigigigigigigigigigiigigigiigigigi. I had a girlfriend named Gigi, but I don't think she was Japanese.:D :p :cool: [/B]
Have you seen a doctor for your condition, Gene? I hear electroshock therapy works wonders... :D

bruceb
17th August 2003, 17:14
WE have created a NEW WORD!

Should I wake Mr. Webster from his grave to get it officially inserted into the Websters Dictionary?

Or should we just put a picture of Tony Kehoe on the warning label when we use the Word "Gi" ?

"Warning, the Word <Gi> is not grammatically correct for use and you may be ticketed by the GRAMMAR POLICE."

Oh Well .... another new meaning for a word written in shorthand.

WAKE UP ... Daniel Webster! Your ancestors need your wisdom, not just your last name, once again.

Kimpatsu
18th August 2003, 00:07
You have not created a new word, Bruce, you've demonstrated your ignorance.
Maybe we should put a picture of Bruce B next to the definition of "unthinking". :rolleyes:

Soulend
18th August 2003, 01:11
Or possibly, next to the entry for 'mongoloid'.

ancestor
SYLLABICATION: an·ces·tor
PRONUNCIATION: AUDIO: nsstr KEY
NOUN: 1. A person from whom one is descended, especially if more remote than a grandparent; a forebear.
2. A forerunner or predecessor.
3. Law The person from whom an estate has been inherited.
4. Biology The actual or hypothetical organism or stock from which later kinds evolved

An "ancestor" is 'one who came before', so why would Webster need to rise from his grave to help those that died that before he did?

bruceb
18th August 2003, 03:20
How many bastardized words do we have for the English language?

What is one more? NO big deal ....

And ... you can't tell me some English words haven't crept into the Japanese language because they too have no translation ...

Get a grip.

The world changes, and so does language ....Time to ditch the whole dogi/ white PJs and get into a loose short jump suit/ coveralls.

Hey ... the practice is supposed to be more important than any clothes you wear, right? Well, maybe for some of us it is ... and some of us ... it is not.

Kimpatsu
18th August 2003, 04:12
Just because you don't understand Budo, Bruce, doesn't mean the rest of us are going to jettison our principles. Dogi is the correct term; there is no other, a fact that you are clearly unable to grasp, like so much of the dialogue on these pages.

Soulend
18th August 2003, 04:25
Yeah, let's all just throw grammatical rules out the window and speak ACAMACLISH! (http://www.martialart.org/)