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View Full Version : Marijuana and it's usage... ignore this thread!



adroitjimon
6th July 2003, 20:12
It has been a while since I have posted any thing here but I am
curious to see what the perception is towards controlled
substances and their use...

As good budo we must uphold the laws of the land,

or atleast that's what most try and project.I am not here to
point fingers or expose anyone but as a responsible adult
I should hope that, well ,if one goes about knocking the hell
out of another and allows another the opportunity to knock
the said hell out of them. why then should we limit our
realities to the norm? after all how normal is it to get a black
eye and thank the giver for the brilliant shiner you just
recieved.

The reason I wrote this thread is to say I get there when
I can and have discovered many of you do as well but hide it
because of hipocrosies that overwhelm your lives.
and if you don't well, that is your business.
just don't be afraid to admit it if you do because,afterall
preservation of self is the one true reason we are a part of
the martial arts world .

Meditate on this subject before you reply, the battle is
all in your mind.read...:nono:

TenguAteMyPuppy
6th July 2003, 20:46
:nono: <-- Why is that thing so inadvertently funny?! :laugh:

My opinion, for whatever it's worth: This world has a lot more to worry about than some kid tripping balls on some mushrooms, or a few hits of acid.

The danger of drugs is equal to their economic value. I've seen it with my own two eyes. The DEA is a virtual marketing commission on them. Every raid that's conducted ups the price, and the danger of being involved. Every suitcase full of heroin that makes it through lowers the price, and the associated risk of being involved with your local heroin dealers, or fiending junkies. You can love or hate drugs, but there are certain undeniable facts in drug economics, and that's one of them.

I'm not one to oppose legalization, mainly on the grounds what you do in your own time is your own choice. Also, the whole idea that the government "knows what's best" for us is sickening, and based in so much moral BS, it's makes my head spin if I think about it too long. However, there's a few valid consequences to legalization worth considering. The government, or the DEA, would be putting a lot of people out of work if it went around legalizing or decriminalizing drugs. I'm not just talking about a handful of narcs either. Think about the Colombian coca farmers! FARC and the AUC would also lose substantial profits. Ah, and don't forget about the Afghani opium crops. Some of the worlds biggest exports and imports (cocaine, heroin, and grass) would lose immense value, as they're forced, in a paradoxically uncoerced manner, to take a legitimate business route. There is no doubt in my mind it has the potential to be an economic disaster.

I guess the bottom line is that people will always have their demands, and a keen businessman will always be there to meet those demands. No government agency, or man made law, is going to be very effective in stopping those demands either.

Amos Smith
6th July 2003, 21:26
I think that there is a public face and a private face we all show to the world, just as a matter of good manners. I also think that as Budoka, it is incumbant upon us to reflect well on our art and our group. This should cover everything from good manners, to timeliness, to speeding, to underage drinking, to murder...you name it. If it reflects well on your Sensei, it is fine for the "public face".

As to the private face...thats your business, I'd prefer you kept it to yourself.

Amos

adroitjimon
6th July 2003, 22:54
I appreciate these things I have read regarding this thread.
but what I get from them is still absolutely nothing ,my objective
entirely. just know this if you meet me in a match I will be
obeying the law and rules.

which brings me to another

hypothetical scenario...
Let's say we were both at a match and
lets say you were high on some kind of stimulant such as PCP,
cocaine,or methanphetamene(sic?),something like that which may
give you a slight edge over me who is completely straight and
have taken precautions to ensure such courses of action.

according to these responses it doesn't matter so long as we keep
it to our selves which is not at all within the keeping of the
true budoka spirit...How should one handle this scenario if
subjected to it? I am just curious as to what others have done
in simillar experiences... should you a. decline b. decline
c. decline or d. just simply ask for a refund on the grounds of
unsportsman like conduct abd demand that the said offender be
screened for substance use. or is martiual arts really just a
place where unscrupulous people are allowed to congregate in
masses with the unwittingly ignorant others?
actuality it is emensely deplorable to say the least.
the same sort of conduct goes on in many aspects of human culture
but no one has the testicular fortitude to speek out against it.

Why?

TenguAteMyPuppy
7th July 2003, 00:36
I appreciate these things I have read regarding this thread.
but what I get from them is still absolutely nothing ,my objective
entirely.

I apologize. I was pretty tired (as usual) when I wrote my reply.


hypothetical scenario...
Let's say we were both at a match and
lets say you were high on some kind of stimulant such as PCP,
cocaine,or methanphetamene(sic?),something like that which may
give you a slight edge over me who is completely straight and
have taken precautions to ensure such courses of action.

Well, first off, PCP is not a stimulant. Far from it, in fact. What most people do not understand about PCP is that it is a dissocative, and not a stimulant. Dissociatives are known to cause "out of body" experiences. This basically means someone tripping on PCP will not move the entire length of their trip. Moving on PCP is quite a task. It makes you feel very heavy. Now, here's the thing. The PCP experience is usually quite euphoric. There is a little something that happens to a user of PCP every so often though. Not as often as the media would have you believe, but maybe 1 out of 1000. It's called "psychosis." There is a "bad trip" which means that you did not particularly enjoy the experience, and then there is psychosis. Psychosis is when you start thinking you have to drill a hole in your head to let the aliens out. This is aided by PCP's anesthetic qualities (which come with all dissociatives). That is, you do not feel any pain. Most people are rational enough not to abuse such a thing, but those in the midst of a psychotic episode are not.

Ok, now that we've cleared up that little tangent, let me address your question head on.

I have never had a "confrontation" with people on methamphetamine. Reason being that meth is euphoric. Not something you particularly want to fight on. The people you want to worry about are the ones coming off meth. THEY can be a handful, and I have had a confrontation or two with people in such a state. The come down from uppers is not in any way pleasant, but they will not have an "edge" in the fight. These drugs do not increase your competitive ability. Even Dextromethorphan (another dissociative, though not nearly as powerful as PCP ...and also a widely used, over the counter, cough supressant) will rob a person of coordination and the ability to use many basic principles learned. On the bright side, "robo-boxing" can be a lot of fun to watch! :)


according to these responses it doesn't matter so long as we keep
it to our selves which is not at all within the keeping of the
true budoka spirit...How should one handle this scenario if
subjected to it?

Well, you're not exactly "keeping it to yourself" if you get into the ring on drugs, now are you?


I am just curious as to what others have done
in simillar experiences... should you a. decline b. decline
c. decline or d. just simply ask for a refund on the grounds of
unsportsman like conduct abd demand that the said offender be
screened for substance use.

Look, if you ever face someone on drugs, don't expect to even know it. Also, if you THINK your opponent is on drugs, I recommend going for nerve bundles. Works quite well.


or is martiual arts really just a
place where unscrupulous people are allowed to congregate in
masses with the unwittingly ignorant others?

In any case, I wouldn't worry about it. Rest assured that the "preformance enhancing drug" is a myth... except maybe steroids. You might worry about those... ;)

adroitjimon
8th July 2003, 05:03
wow very in formative ,,, I like the way it was handled
so much skill... what a brilliant blackbelt verbaljikata...:nw:

TenguAteMyPuppy
8th July 2003, 06:38
:laugh:

Meh... It's what I grew up around. Too much experience in too few years.

wendy ongaro
8th July 2003, 14:02
Meh... It's what I grew up around. Too much experience in too few years.

knowing too much too young...it's called bad wisdom.

the big problems with working with potentially violent people on or withdrawing from drugs (including alcohol) is that:

1. they may be hallucinating
2. many people develop paranoid delusions when withdrawing
3. many people who are already mentally ill self-medicate with street drugs, plus, use street drugs long enough, and you will be mentally ill regardless of where you started from.
4. the combination of all these factors is disinhibiting, resulting in someone being completely unreasonable, who under normal circumstances might be fairly reasonable.

This is the danger of dealing in a confrontational situation with someone on drugs. As was once stated by one of my favorite ER nurses- "never waste your time trying to reason with children or crazy people."

TenguAteMyPuppy
9th July 2003, 01:33
it's called bad wisdom.

What do you mean by "bad?" Useless? Incomplete? Or just something
you shouldn't have? Clarification, please. :)


This is the danger of dealing in a confrontational situation with someone on drugs. As was once stated by one of my favorite ER nurses- "never waste your time trying to reason with children or crazy people."

Well, consider that being brought into the ER on ANY drug is automatically going to produce a bad trip. If the person is already going through a harsh drug experience, a trip to the ER probably isn't going to help, unless there is a serious risk of the person having OD'ed, or causing harm to himself or others. Your best bet might just be to lock them in a closet for a couple hours. ;)

wendy ongaro
9th July 2003, 03:55
Your best bet might just be to lock them in a closet for a couple hours.

I completely agree.

In terms of 'bad wisdom'- its an old saying that refers to the loss of innocence, i.e. growing up too quickly. People lose innocence when terrible things happen to them, and the idea is that if you go through terrible or inappropriate things at an inappropriate age (i.e. too young) you pay a higher price for that wisdom- i.e. bad wisdom. It also implies that the wisdom gained is not balanced, because it came about solely by experiencing the dark side of life without experiencing the joyful side, nor having the maturity to use that dark understanding of the world in a productive way. That's all I meant by it. you were discussing your loss of innocence as to the properties of different drugs, and it made me think of 'bad wisdom'. No offense meant.

TenguAteMyPuppy
9th July 2003, 05:25
Right. I wouldn't call it a loss of innocence. It was usually loss of ego (something of an inside joke). :D

Generally speaking, innocence isn't a concept I really believe in, anyway. Too deeply rooted in various other philosophical concepts I don't carry a lot of respect for, but enough of that. I think the main questions have been answered here.

Martin Adil-Smi
9th July 2003, 12:35
My own orientation is that I am completely against dope, apart from it use in medical circumstances.

I have witnessed the effect on my family when a wayward uncle took a nose dive after years of cocasine abuse. He started off smoking dope in his teens. My family damn near imploded.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying ALL dope smokers will become career criminals, or move on to anything harder... it is just that is my experience.

Personally, I don't smoke dope or tobacco. I'm weening caffeeine and alcohol out of my diet as well. Apart from physical affects, I believe that the psychological affects are too great to offset against the "fix".

kage110
9th July 2003, 16:04
My own orientation is that I am completely against dope, apart from it use in medical circumstances.

I have witnessed the effect on my family when a wayward uncle took a nose dive after years of cocasine abuse. He started off smoking dope in his teens. My family damn near imploded.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying ALL dope smokers will become career criminals, or move on to anything harder... it is just that is my experience.

Personally, I don't smoke dope or tobacco. I'm weening caffeeine and alcohol out of my diet as well. Apart from physical affects, I believe that the psychological affects are too great to offset against the "fix".

Saying this as someone who drinks alcohol infrequently and rarely to excess, doesn't smoke and has never taken any drugs at all...

Martin,

What was the problem exactly? Was it the uncle taking the drugs? Was it the family's reaction to him taking drugs? Was it the situation that the uncle was in before/during/after he took the drugs (talking in terms of years here not minutes)? Was it the situation the family was in that caused the uncle to take the drugs?

I don't actually want answers to these questions, that is your private business and none of mine. My point is that drugs themselves are not necessarily the problem but the way in which the people around the issue react to them.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that drugs are good for you because they aren't, but drugs themselves are not the whole problem. Many addicts who OD or contract AIDS, Hepatitis B or some other disease or get involved in crime do so not because the drug itself kills them but because of the lifestyle they are forced to adopt once drug dependency sets in. Then, of course there is the issue of the lifestyle that people are in that results in them becoming drug dependant in the first place.

I am afraid that there is an awful lot of fear and misinformation around about the drug issue and the emphasis (in countries like the USA and UK) on the drug enforcement angle is doomed to failure as there will still be a ready market for those that want to abuse drugs until (if ever) the social issues are addressed.

wendy ongaro
10th July 2003, 02:37
People who are prone to addiction with drugs are addicted to chaos. They like chaos. They cannot live the boring, mundane, go to work, do the daily grind, come home, kiss your wife, eat dinner, pay your mortgage, go to bed, get up the next day and do it again. Even after addicts clean up, they reproduce this addiction in other areas of their lives.

It's interesting because before I started working in psychiatry with people who were addicted to something, I used to be pro legalization. Now, I am anything but (with the exception of marijuana, which, IMHO is not as benign as pro legalization people would like to tell you it is, but it is still better than alcohol).

On the east coast, where I trained, the average waiting list (1999-2001) for getting someone into rehab was 4-6 months. So, if a heroine addict walks into my exam room today, wanting to come clean, I have to say "sorry. i'll put you on the list and they'll call you in four months". FOR TEENAGE ADDICTS, BECAUSE OF THE SHORTAGE IN TREATMENT PROGRAMS THAT WILL ACCEPT MINORS, THE WAITING LIST CAN BE UP TO A YEAR. That's just plain wrong. Out here in Wyoming, it is better because there are fewer people to compete for each program.

This is the number one problem with our strategy with the war on drugs. Period. We can't get people into rehab when they are ready. By the time the slot opens, they have relapsed and are either dead, have hit the road, or lost the interest to address their addiction.

My main question to legalizing drugs is who is going to sell them if the dealers don't? The government? That's a little weird. If so, who is the government going to push them too?

I never believed in demons until I worked with people with drug addiction. Now, I know better. When someone craves a drug, they will sacrifice their health, their family, their freedom, their lives for the next high. If killing someone would get them the drug, many of them would do it. They dump their kids, they pimp out their kids, they starve their kids so they can have the money for the drugs. They burn their brains out and become nothing but an empty shell programmed to seek the drug of choice. drug addiction is the closest thing to a biblical demon I have ever seen.

I don't like the war on drugs. It's not working. I don't have a good alternative other than getting better access to rehab services. But after seeing what I've seen, I am really leary of total legalization.

TenguAteMyPuppy
10th July 2003, 09:04
People who are prone to addiction with drugs are addicted to chaos. They like chaos. They cannot live the boring, mundane, go to work, do the daily grind, come home, kiss your wife, eat dinner, pay your mortgage, go to bed, get up the next day and do it again. Even after addicts clean up, they reproduce this addiction in other areas of their lives.

Hmmm, this is a bit too broad for me to fully accept. Many times, it's merely escaping reality. Other times, it is just out of plain boredom. Sometimes there's an entirely legitimate use. I do not advocate the use of ANY drug(s), even alcohol or tobacco, but many demonized chemicals (such as LSD and MDMA) are not half as dangerous as they're made out to be, and do have a very real possibility to enhance people's lives, ideas, culture, etc. with RESPONSIBLE use.

I am going to give the links to MAPS, because I am not so sure I fully agree with the above (or what follows below) myself, but I'm going to run with a pro-legalization argument, for this discussion anyway (hey, it's how I work).

http://www.maps.org


It's interesting because before I started working in psychiatry with people who were addicted to something, I used to be pro legalization. Now, I am anything but (with the exception of marijuana, which, IMHO is not as benign as pro legalization people would like to tell you it is, but it is still better than alcohol).

Yeah, junkies and tweakers are truly some of the lowest of the low. However, consider that drug prohibition has literally created more problems (and addicts) than it has ever solved (or helped). When heroin came about as a cough suppressant, it was not a problem. When cocaine came about for pain, it was not a problem. A number of opiate based medications, and medically approved amphetamines exist today with a relatively contained amount of incidents of abuse (besides, why go to all the trouble to get dull medical amphetamines when you can drive down a street and the meth dealers will come right up to your car and serve you like it was fast food?).

While I would not go so far as to assign any specific medical value to cocaine (although I do believe it has been somewhat demonized), heroin is another story. It is one of the most potent pain killers known to man (both physical and mental pain) and I cannot find any reason to deny it to the very terminally ill (as was done around the turn of the century, with an impressive degree of relative success) who might request something stronger than whatever they are on. Sometimes relieving the physical pain of one person can relieve a lot of emotional pain of their family as well. In all truth, I'd rather see grandma nodded than in terribly agonizing pain.

Excuse me, that must be my better half speaking. ;)


On the east coast, where I trained, the average waiting list (1999-2001) for getting someone into rehab was 4-6 months. So, if a heroine addict walks into my exam room today, wanting to come clean, I have to say "sorry. i'll put you on the list and they'll call you in four months". FOR TEENAGE ADDICTS, BECAUSE OF THE SHORTAGE IN TREATMENT PROGRAMS THAT WILL ACCEPT MINORS, THE WAITING LIST CAN BE UP TO A YEAR. That's just plain wrong. Out here in Wyoming, it is better because there are fewer people to compete for each program.

Rehabs are all screwed up anyway. Most of them are filled up with people that are not really addicted ("oh, little Billy was addicted to the marijuana, so we sent him to rehab." -an all too often true example. There is no one on god's green earth addicted to marijuana and any one who says they are is probably self-medicating in actuality and needs psychological help, or maybe a change in lifestyles, but not drug rehab), or so addicted that the idea of "complete drug abstinence" is a joke. You cannot take someone who has been doing heroin for 40 years (seriously, I met a guy who has. Acquaintance of my brother), or even five for that matter, and say "Ok, well, no heroin, three doses of methadone, and (or) Jesus! You're good to go!" It's just not that simple.


My main question to legalizing drugs is who is going to sell them if the dealers don't? The government? That's a little weird. If so, who is the government going to push them too?

Heh, that's part of the legalization argument. Their high demand, a result partially of their illegal status, is then negligible... if they're legal. Who will sell them? I honestly don't know. Maybe no one? Maybe Philip Morris (excuse me, Altira Group)? God, actually, let's hope not. In fact, here's an idea I've been playing with. In the legislation which legalizes drugs, let's also ensure their safety by not allowing those selling them to toy with them. Potentially an open door to exploit the addictive nature of some of the harder ones. In fact, why not give tax breaks, government incentives and grants to those companies or individuals who make them less addictive, and less harmful (assuming they were legal for sale and consumption)? In their current state, most mainstream illegal drugs are "safe" (that is, you won't immediately die from their use) if you are not a moron... er... I mean if you're responsible. It would be best to keep it that way, if they were ever legalized.


I never believed in demons until I worked with people with drug addiction. Now, I know better. When someone craves a drug, they will sacrifice their health, their family, their freedom, their lives for the next high. If killing someone would get them the drug, many of them would do it. They dump their kids, they pimp out their kids, they starve their kids so they can have the money for the drugs. They burn their brains out and become nothing but an empty shell programmed to seek the drug of choice. drug addiction is the closest thing to a biblical demon I have ever seen.

I am of the firm belief that addiction is a choice an individual makes, and is rarely made for him or her by their use of drugs. Whether it's ultimately conscious or subconscious, I am not sure. I am pretty sure that many (not all, but many) junkies are actually junkies well before they stick that needle in their arm though. They might be attracted to the "allure" of being an addict, or they might just have a generally f$#ked up life (or brain, or both). In any case, the drug war has done nothing to help these people. It's undeniably hurt them more than anything. The mythical drug kingpin's best friend is the DEA. Hell, where would his market be if not for drug prohibition? Europe? Yeah right!


I don't like the war on drugs. It's not working. I don't have a good alternative other than getting better access to rehab services. But after seeing what I've seen, I am really leary of total legalization.

Rightfully so, on that last part. There are a lot of alternatives. I've reviewed the facts, both on paper, and with my own two eyes. I am getting to the point where I am saying "anything is better than criminalizing what ultimately comes down to personal choice." So, hey, why not legalize it all? Your average addict is only mildly worse than your average alcoholic. A few reasons that you will probably never see an alcoholic out stealing for booze is that alcohol is widely available at relatively controlled prices, it's use is not (highly) socially ostracized, and it's consumption carries no real criminal punishment. Oh, sure, alcoholics are violent, annoying, and neglectful (so are most addicts)... but hell, you take a lot of stress away when you legalize something and basically say, for example, "ok, cocaine is now legal and socially acceptable for occasional use" (coincidentally, the number of people who drink on a social basis and become alcoholics, and the number of people who use cocaine on a social basis and become cokeheads, is probably damn near parallel. I can't verify it on paper, but consider it a theory). If other drugs, even the hard ones, were the same way, we might just be a little better off.

Or worse. I don't really know. ;)

wendy ongaro
10th July 2003, 16:33
Most of them are filled up with people that are not really addicted ("oh, little Billy was addicted to the marijuana, so we sent him to rehab." -an all too often true example. There is no one on god's green earth addicted to marijuana

have you ever worked in rehab medicine? from this statement, I don't think you have. I have people who started with a fifth of hard liquor at age 14, and by 30, their arms look like a B&O railroad map. Most of our referrals are from law enforcment, and very few of them involve marijuana.

Switch jobs, work in a medical rehab, and then tell me what kinds of addicts we get. Then I'll listen to you.

TenguAteMyPuppy
10th July 2003, 17:32
have you ever worked in rehab medicine? from this statement, I don't think you have. I have people who started with a fifth of hard liquor at age 14, and by 30, their arms look like a B&O railroad map. Most of our referrals are from law enforcment, and very few of them involve marijuana.

Hmmm... don't recall disputing anything there. Although if your theory is that liquor leads to gang violence, I'm afraid I could recklessly drive a large truck through your argument.


Switch jobs, work in a medical rehab, and then tell me what kinds of addicts we get. Then I'll listen to you.

Wow. What an amazing display of unnecessary arrogance.

No, I do not have a professional career in the collective joke, oh, I mean field, known as "rehabilitative medicine" but I have been around drug addicts all my life. Is that in your resume? More credit to you if it is. Experience in rehabs? Hell, I never had a drug habit. My brother, on the other hand, has been in 36 separate rehabs, all in this same city. In the process, I have had the (un)pleasurable experience to mingle with many of the various characters he's met in these places (not surprisingly, few of which last longer than). Hell, the only thing I didn't do was get a drug habit and live there.

Thanks for "touting your credentials." I'm sure someone is quite impressed. However, I think have the necessary experience to speak on the subject, with some degree of authority, and not be put down in the process. :)

wendy ongaro
11th July 2003, 00:47
Most of them are filled up with people that are not really addicted ("oh, little Billy was addicted to the marijuana, so we sent him to rehab." -an all too often true example.

My question is- what kind of rehab does your brother get sent to? Is this like the drug rehab equivalent of a white collar crime prison?

As for his coming and going 36 times, it doesn't surprise me.

The joke about rehab is that drug addicts- like your brother- are as dumb as posts. Despite being given every opportunity and reason, they are too stupid to figure out how to break the habit,and don't really care at all about who they hurt. In the mean time, the rest of us- families, the court systems, the drunk driving victims, health care providers, get sucked dry of our time, our compassion, our dollars, our lives. Then the joke's on all of us.

90% of your post I agreed with- but where does the above quote come from? :confused: What part of your extensive druggie experience can you use to explain your comment? Something your brother or his friends told you? I wouldn't believe it for two seconds if they did. I'm jealous. I would love to work exclusively with potheads.

As for being arrogant, yes I am arrogant. Take on the responsibility and make the decisions I make daily, and you'd be arrogant too.

If it bothers you- that's your problem. :D I don't care either way.

signaljammer
11th July 2003, 01:32
As far as I've ever been able to tell, most people that have there undies in a bunch over pot are the ones that should be mellowing out and doing a bongload.

And most people that do bongloads don't need the extra mellowing out, and should pay a little more attention to where their lives are going.

My drug policy would be mandatory usage for squares :)

As far as other drugs...

Well, doesn't it all depend on the drug?

Criminalization doesn't seem to work, and they can't seem to control access to drugs, so obviously the USA's current schema is on more crack than $15 hooker.

As far as what I'd recommend for anyone, Well gee, stay away from speed. It has a side effect of murder. Stay away from depressants, they have side effects of suicide.

Stay away from Angeldust, there are better drugs.

Pot's less bad than alcahol, but it WILL make it seem like you do'nt have any problems anymore, without solving them. it's like Malcom said, the problem with drugs is you wake up in the morning and you're still poor.

I'd say that mushrooms or LSD is pretty harmless, although when your tripping balls and have some sort of psychological insight you may not be ready for that can ¤¤¤¤ you up for a while. But that's not the molecule. The molecules for both are pretty safe.

Heroine will ruin your personality, although it's not too dangerous if it's clean and you've got someone to restart your heart and lungs.

Cocaine seems to lead to microstrokes when you reach 40, so that sucks.

Any drugs that science has made 10000's of times more powerful than the original substance is probably pretty dangerous.

But jeeze, we shouldn't be using drug policy to provide rural welfare in the form of the prison industrial complex. That just ain't right.

Mostly, the problem with drugs is that they work. That may seem like a tautology, but that's not quite how I mean it. If a drug has analegesic properties it WILL make you forget about your pain. But nature makes us feel pain for a reason. We need to know that something isn't going right.

As far as rehab goes, whats the point of kicking the molecular addiction if you're not going to change the circumstances in your life that lead to the behavior in the first place.

I know plenty of druggies and non druggies. Seem to me the druggies come from messed up families that have put them in alot of pain, and that don't support them.

Getting off on drugs is cheaper than buying a nice car and bicycle and going off on a european cycle tour vacation after graduating from college.

As far as the laws go, why are politicians setting them? They are self serving. Let's let pharmacists and doctors and the like tell us what drugs should be avioded.

If you go to your local hospital, the stack of files for incidents involving illegal drugs will be dwarfed by the stack for tobacco and alcahol, so damage isn't what the politicians really care about. They care about being re- elected. people wouldn't stand for you taking their coffee and booze away, but those are drugs too.

anyway, enough rambling.

*bow*

wendy ongaro
11th July 2003, 01:57
Pot's less bad than alcohol, but it WILL make it seem like you do'nt have any problems anymore, without solving them. it's like Malcom said, the problem with drugs is you wake up in the morning and you're still poor.


Mostly, the problem with drugs is that they work. That may seem like a tautology, but that's not quite how I mean it. If a drug has analegesic properties it WILL make you forget about your pain. But nature makes us feel pain for a reason. We need to know that something isn't going right.

Amen brother. some days I wish I could again feel like I don't have any problems anymore, whether I have them or not.

;)

TenguAteMyPuppy
11th July 2003, 04:22
My question is- what kind of rehab does your brother get sent to? Is this like the drug rehab equivalent of a white collar crime prison?

No. Hasn't visited the "Honor Camp" set up yet. Close to it, but not quite. I was saying in general, on the marijuana thing. There are many people in rehabs who simply do not have any real reason to be there.


As for his coming and going 36 times, it doesn't surprise me.

The joke about rehab is that drug addicts- like your brother- are as dumb as posts. Despite being given every opportunity and reason, they are too stupid to figure out how to break the habit,and don't really care at all about who they hurt. In the mean time, the rest of us- families, the court systems, the drunk driving victims, health care providers, get sucked dry of our time, our compassion, our dollars, our lives. Then the joke's on all of us.

What you haven't factored in (even theoretically) leads me to believe you are not thinking clearly on this issue. As you should know, and as I've pointed out, in most cases there are numerous factors (such as mental illness) beyond your control, in cases of drug addiction. Would you make that same statement about the those suffering from schizophrenia? Hmmm...

I'm not going to sit here and turn the very simple example of my brother into some long discussion on him. It's not my place, and I don't choose to. I've made my point, and I refuse to let this discussion be based solely on what you can "claim" as experience (which is exactly what's happening). This is not some kind of warped ego contest, and if I see it going that direction, I'm going to drop it entirely.


90% of your post I agreed with- but where does the above quote come from? What part of your extensive druggie experience can you use to explain your comment? Something your brother or his friends told you? I wouldn't believe it for two seconds if they did. I'm jealous. I would love to work exclusively with potheads.

No, and I thought I had made it all rather clear. I know of numerous cases (you don't have to look hard!) of people being sent into rehab for things that were not serious or even real addictions, even psychologically speaking. Pot, MDMA, LSD, even cough syrup! These are things people are not generally addicted to, but as soon as some high strung parent discovers what's going on, it all goes to hell. Doesn't matter what drug it is. I blame this solely on vast mis-information and hysteria produced by the drug war. I've seen it happen what seems like a million times. Truly one of those things that makes you want to slam your head into a brick wall.


As for being arrogant, yes I am arrogant. Take on the responsibility and make the decisions I make daily, and you'd be arrogant too.

You must be bitter because your medal got lost in the mail? :D


If it bothers you- that's your problem. I don't care either way.

It doesn't bother me. It just degrades the quality of the discussion.

wendy ongaro
11th July 2003, 13:52
What you haven't factored in (even theoretically) leads me to believe you are not thinking clearly on this issue. As you should know, and as I've pointed out, in most cases there are numerous factors (such as mental illness) beyond your control, in cases of drug addiction.

wendy ongaro
11th July 2003, 13:56
What you haven't factored in (even theoretically) leads me to believe you are not thinking clearly on this issue. As you should know, and as I've pointed out, in most cases there are numerous factors (such as mental illness) beyond your control, in cases of drug addiction.


I am of the firm belief that addiction is a choice an individual makes, and is rarely made for him or her by their use of drugs

I see a discrepancy here. Which is it David? is drug abuse a choice? or something completely out of an addict's control?

I have plenty of mentally ill patients who don't abuse drugs. I have plenty of folks who are not mentally ill who use like crazy. Of course the way the system is set up, if you abuse, it's only a matter of time before you inherit a psychiatric label once you enter the drug rehab/correctional medicine world whether you are truly mentally ill or not. (unfortunately pain in the arse does not come with an ICD-9 code)

since your such a pro, what do you think is the difference between those addicts who are able to kick the habit and pursue happy, healthy lives, and those who just run through the system again, and again, and again?....

And in terms of a discussion going to the potter, 99% of these discussions go to hell in a hand basket by page 3. Who am I to change the trend? :D

The medal I keep waiting for in the mail is the one that says "the buck stops here'. :D

wendy ongaro
11th July 2003, 14:06
I'm not going to sit here and turn the very simple example of my brother into some long discussion on him.

honey, you already have.

TenguAteMyPuppy
11th July 2003, 14:33
I see a discrepancy here. Which is it David? is drug abuse a choice? or something completely out of an addict's control?

It's not a discrepancy, it's an oversight on your part. No problem, though. Allow me to clarify. What I was saying is that mental illness can cause the state, but is not usually separate from it, in which a person has already made the choice to become a junkie.


I have plenty of mentally ill patients who don't abuse drugs. I have plenty of folks who are not mentally ill who use like crazy. Of course the way the system is set up, if you abuse, it's only a matter of time before you inherit a psychiatric label once you enter the drug rehab/correctional medicine world whether you are truly mentally ill or not. (unfortunately pain in the arse does not come with an ICD-9 code)

since your such a pro, what do you think is the difference between those addicts who are able to kick the habit and pursue happy, healthy lives, and those who just run through the system again, and again, and again?....

I'm not a pro, never claimed to be.

What is the difference? Good question. I would like to say the individual. That seems to be the most logical answer. However, that would inevitably lead to you saying I've contradicted myself, if I didn't launch into an incredibly long and boring post about how such a factor doesn't really matter, in the scheme of my argument. So, for the sake of time, I'm just going to say "I don't know." Which might be at least half true.



And in terms of a discussion going to the potter, 99% of these discussions go to hell in a hand basket by page 3. Who am I to change the trend?

Oh... damnit.

Point taken.

adroitjimon
11th July 2003, 15:16
Here's my deal . I used to smoke weed here a while back and have
since discontinued its use... the resoning behind its usage was
for artistic purposes,guitar,drums,creative writing,painting
and inventing different things for personal enjoyment...

What started it all out was I had a friend at the time who
offered me a chance to hit off a joint with him, so I tried it
and immediately I was like 'hell yeah' the Beastie boys video
the skills to pay the bills was playing and it was an incredible
experience for me...at the time...

The down fall of it all was the filth one had to endure to
aquire the product was unrelenting .not in just isolated cases
but every instance ,these people were friggin'pigs... and the
quality was never consistent to warrant continued excursions
to go out and visit them ...and yes these folks were very mentally
unstable... and I would ask why do you gethigh?
the usual responses were 'to maintain,to calm my nerves...ect...
never for any thing productive except for the guys I used to smoke
with back in my reggea band days we'd get stoned and play for hours
then I had some friends that we'd get stoned and talk for hours
then sometimes I used to get stoned and go to this bridge by my
house and listen to the creek trickle by and the vehicles as they
passed over head and create these massive dry gardens in the sand
the brige was my own private nirvana, no one ever went there but me
although I told people about it they were like you are so weird

you would probably suspect me as being high if you ever met me
I'm not like every one you meet on the street but in the same
sense I'm not any different either,not that it mattersz but just
thought I'd share a little bit of that with you...

perhaps I'm stillaffected by it even though the stuff is long
gone from my system and my beliefs are the same as wendy's
it's way better than alcohol and if I had my druthers
I'd say let people chose and put up an application to the
government stating that if they could they'd rather not drink
but get stoned instead. so at least they could keep a dang job
thats the main reasoning be hind my abstenance money....

John Lindsey
16th July 2003, 18:12
How is this for a job?

adroitjimon
17th July 2003, 06:34
Absolute brilliance!!! Thank you for the graphic Image
Mr. Lindsey...cheers

John Lindsey
17th July 2003, 07:14
Thanks :)

wendy ongaro
17th July 2003, 13:42
The M&M's are hysterical.

I actually wish they would legalize pot. I used to smoke in college and gave it up when I decided to go into the health care field. There are problems with it- mostly people driving while high and causing accidents, or, as stated by somebody else above- people using it to escape from their real lives and not dealing with stuff. Otherwise, I think it's pretty harmless.


There is a time and place for everything, boys...and it's called college.-- Chef from South Park

Alcohol just puts me to sleep. Get me around good people on a saturday night, and I don't need to drink to get wild and crazy. I already am.

I miss pot because the stuff make me laugh- you know, one of those hard belly laughs that just drains every stressor and tension out of your body. We could could be watching 60 minutes on TV- and I would find something utterly hilarious- and laugh for the next 30 minutes straight until tears were coming out of my eyes, and I would wake up the next morning with racked abs. I miss that because I don't laugh enough.:p

TenguAteMyPuppy
17th July 2003, 16:39
Drink cough syrup!

adroitjimon
18th July 2003, 00:34
cough syrup,boo!!!
The stuff is really weird to abuse it is absurd,at least for me...

Wendy,since you are in the medical feild,perhaps you know
what that real ICKIE YUCK feeling one gets from abusing stuff
like cough syrup and benidril,ect...

I'll attempt to describe the symtoms,
at first you get extremely drousy and fall to sleep,but as soon
as you do you wake right up and your entire body feels like
flypaper that has been stuck together and there is no relief
at all from this feeling so you end up staying in this half asleep
half awake and in miserable torment... there is no comfort from
this untill after about 12 hours of this crap and you are just
praying to God that you would be allowed to die and then you fall
asleep and its over...

these are the medications that do this to me...

1.Buspar... I dont even know why I was prescribed that(quacky?)
2.benidril...
3.Codine...
4.Cough syrup...

The ones I enjoyed most were
1.Thorazopene,(sic?)
2.Halodol w/cojentn but I would get rashes
3.Darvocet...got it for my knee surgery recovery,mamma say knock
you out...

any way what is that crappy feeling called?

TenguAteMyPuppy
18th July 2003, 15:35
Well, everyone reacts differently to Dextromethorphan abuse. From what I hear, 33% love it, 33% hate it, and 34% just don't care one way or the other. About 0.5% to 2% of the population have multiple copies of the P450 liver enzyme, leading to extremely fast metabolism of DXM into DXO. In other words, what could have been a normal "recreational" dose could have put you out for a few hours.

Or you took the wrong kind. Nothing to be ashamed of there if you did (if the active ingredients listed anything other than "Dextromethorphan HBr ...XXmg" you did). In any case, I'd say just accept it's not your thing and move. Besides, I was (at least) half joking, anyway.

On another note, where did you have the opportunity to try heavy anti-psychotics like Haloperidol? You know things like that will screw up your brain quicker than PCP? Blech.

adroitjimon
18th July 2003, 23:20
While I was in the Navy I encountered a chemical imbalance
from alcohol abuse that sent me into an escalated depression.

so they()began experimenting with medications to counter this effect
and according to them there was a possibility of mellingering
but I was positive I wasn't fakeing but clueless as to what was
going on because I didn't know but any ways

but what I liked about the psychotropics was my head was silent
not that I am psychotic I just suffer from that adhd crap
so you may notice a bit of this in my posts :D :D :D

the sodium in the lythium made the imbalance even worse
so that is why I had to go on the thorozine,trust me I dont
understand any of it I spent a total of 6mo. in the psych ward
of Malcom Growe medical center before going to Bethesda where
I stayed another 3 mo. before being sent back to my original
command and then about a year after that I had a blacked out
suicide attempt... and several after that but I often wonder
what the heck happened to the boy I was before then...

And since you cant sue the U.S. government for malpractice
I'm just stuck with my screwy noodle and have since learned to
cope with it...I mean it could be worse ,perhaps?

TenguAteMyPuppy
19th July 2003, 02:35
Neat experience.

As far as being screwy... no more than the rest of us. :D

I'm suspicious of anyone that ain't a little off the mark.

adroitjimon
21st July 2003, 03:59
Okay, since my inherent screwiness is chemically
induced does it mean that it will or will not be
able to be genetically transmitted through the
procreation of offspring ? not that Ive ever found
a suitable match but just curiously I ponder the
poosibility of such an advent...

TenguAteMyPuppy
21st July 2003, 15:49
If it's chemically induced? No. It's just you, but I honestly don't see what's so screwy.

adroitjimon
21st July 2003, 23:52
I was allways different than all of my peers groing up
I was like that stand out guy but I made it a point to be just
a little weirder than the next guy and allways being the last in
line can cause one to develope a complex... Ive allways been a
bashfull kid but somewhat bright and then I got ahold of alcohol
when I was 18 I never even used swearwords before the Navy...

I would drink and hated it but I wasn't shy when I did so I
would drink more and more and the 'luck' I gained from doing
such would astound you I look back and go damn what happened
to that boy...

screwy I guess is like having the formula on a napkin and leaving
it on the bar and screwy is finding the formula later and not
having the foggiest I dea as to what it's suuposed to equate
pretty much it all boils down to confusion. that is why I take
extreme measures to face and defeat the momentary confusions
I am truobled with... screwy is to desire nothing and not really
care about any thing else with any honesty ,for I'm not very
compassionate towards others and I don't really understand why
I've actively searched for this compassion and found that nothing
is to become the final achievement of every thing from the
beginning...and I'm sure none of this makes any sense screwy
perhaps?:D