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Eric Baluja
8th July 2003, 17:34
Some stuff I’ve been mulling.

1. Why practice martial arts if you don’t really need to? What I mean is if you’re not, for example, in the military or law enforcement (or live in a dicey part of town, I suppose), what’s the point?

Of course, the above question will probably engender thoughts of martial arts as spirit-forging, centering, “moving meditation,” etc. I should also point out the somewhat obvious and state that there are some activities taught as ‘martial’ arts to which the above question doesn’t necessarily apply.

We all know that martial and especially pseudo-martial activities have benefits beyond merely teaching one how to kick, punch, throw, stab, etc. There’s no problem with these intangible rewards, but I wonder if these were or are really the point of what were originally martial arts. Which leads me to the next question:

2. If we practice martial arts even though they have no practical application in our lives, aren’t we in some way debasing the original intent of the founders of the various traditions we study and lending to further degeneration of the ‘martial way’?

…and…

3. Can’t we obtain similar benefits by just taking up meditation and/or a sport? Shouldn’t we do that and leave the martial arts to those who actually have a need to be martial much of the time?

Hey, it beats workin’. :D

leoboiko
8th July 2003, 17:45
Why practice martial arts if you don’t really need to?
For the same reason I study tea ceremony, for example - because I want to know and understand Japanese traditions.


aren’t we in some way debasing the original intent of the founders of the various traditions we study(...)
I don't think so.


Can’t we obtain similar benefits by just taking up meditation and/or a sport?
No.

Henry
8th July 2003, 18:08
Eric,
Speaking only for myself (obviously) I practice only because I enjoy it, it's FUN. My reasons have nothing to do with spirit forging, meditation...My original purpose was to learn self defense but stuck with it because it's something I can't wait to get back to each day.

Debasing the original intent? Maybe, but it's a different world, things change. Are the martial arts, as practiced by many, really practical for professionals? I don't know but it seems a soldiers time could be better spent on other things. Hard to imagine that a soldier would see hand-to-hand combat unless something went very wrong.

As far as taking up another sport and leaving martial arts to those that need it...You could make the same arguement about any sport, no one NEEDS to run, lift, swim (well maybe swim)...find one you enjoy & have a ball.

Yup, it does beat working.

Henry

Eric Baluja
8th July 2003, 18:09
Originally posted by leoboiko
For the same reason I study tea ceremony, for example - because I want to know and understand Japanese traditions. The essential intent of tea ceremony, insofar as I understand it, is to allow the practitioner to focus and center and achieve a state of equanimity. This, as far as I know, was the whole reason this practice came into being (other than actually having a nice cup o’ tea). The whole reason the budo originally came into being, as far as I know, was to show a warrior the best way to subdue and usually kill an opposing warrior and get home without having the same happen to him.


Originally posted by leoboiko
“…aren’t we in some way debasing the original intent of the founders of the various traditions we study...?” I don't think so. If the original intent is more or less as I stated it above, how is (e.g.,) a sword-swinging dentist not defeating the founder’s purpose?


Originally posted by leoboiko
“Can’t we obtain similar benefits by just taking up meditation and/or a sport?” No. Why not? And wouldn’t it be better than ‘contaminating’ the tradition’s intent?

Shitoryu Dude
8th July 2003, 18:23
1) Because I enjoy it

2) Because I want to be capable of defending myself should the need arise

3) Physical fitness

4) Gets me out of the house on a regular basis

5) The people I meet at the dojo are usually a cut above the norm

6) Stress relief

7) Karate guys are cool :cool:

:beer:

Oni
8th July 2003, 18:49
I personally have many reasons why I study what I study. The plainest reason however is that even though I hope I am never in a situation that calls for the use of physical skills...it is definitely possible that I one day may be. I do not want to find myself in that situation totally unprepared.

There are many precautionary measures we take in life that one could look at and go, Why bother? Look at how much money one spends on insurance in their lifetime. I personally have never used my auto insurance or my home owners insurance...if my house ever burns down though I will be very happy to have it.

I also feel that through the physical study of martial arts one can learn a sense of balance and awareness to avoid situations that one might otherwise stumble into unawares. When you know exactly what you can do (and can be done to you) it can build a confident respect.

Just a few thoughts....

Eric Baluja
8th July 2003, 18:54
Originally posted by Henry
Eric, Speaking only for myself (obviously) I practice only because I enjoy it, it's FUN. No argument there.


Originally posted by Henry
Debasing the original intent? Maybe, but it's a different world, things change. That being the case, why don't we just let these things go and find something more applicable to our own lives?


Originally posted by Henry
Are the martial arts, as practiced by many, really practical for professionals? Could it be that, because the arts are most commonly practiced by amateurs (for lack of a better term), they have degenerated to the point that they are no longer useful for martial purposes?


Originally posted by Henry
As far as taking up another sport and leaving martial arts to those that need it...You could make the same arguement about any sport, no one NEEDS to run, lift, swim (well maybe swim)... On the contrary, the practical purpose of these activities is fitness. The central purpose of martial arts, one would imagine, is best expressed in a martial context.

Mike Williams
8th July 2003, 18:58
Henry nailed it.

As far as 'spirit-forging', 'centering' or the other spiritual benefits - actually, I think you can derive those benefits by dedicating yourself to any sport or physical activity. The whole field of sports-psychology is based on forging mental toughness and self-confidence, pretty much the same things that budo seeks to develop.

Cheers,

Mike

Eric Baluja
8th July 2003, 19:08
I think it's entirely a question of purpose. The original purpose of most classical Japanese martial arts seems to have been to teach the warrior class how to wage war, plain and simple. The purpose of insurance is to insure against loss. Its purpose is different. My question was how are we non-martial folk not watering down the purpose and practice of martial arts? How are we not fouling the original stream (ryu)?

leoboiko
8th July 2003, 19:09
The essential intent of tea ceremony, insofar as I understand it, is to allow the practitioner to focus and center and achieve a state of equanimity. This, as far as I know, was the whole reason this practice came into being (other than actually having a nice cup o’ tea).

Not really... the original meaning of tea ceremony was a nobility pastime to show off expensive Chinese utensils (<i>karamono</i>).
Juk&#244;, J&#244;&#244; and Riky&#251; redesigned it as <i>wabicha</i>, under the principles of wabi-sabi, of "withered and cold" and the "thatched hut". They had links with <i>renga</i> poetry and turned Chanoyu into a poetic expression of wabi.

But I'm digressing from your point... you're saying that neither chanoyu nor budo were designed to teach about Japanese traditions, but with other goals in mind. I fully agree; however, the question was "why study martial arts if you don't need them". This is my answer - to know Japan.


If the original intent is more or less as I stated it above, how is (e.g.,) a sword-swinging dentist not defeating the founder’s purpose?

If the goal is as you stated, the purpose is defeated anyway now that we don't battle with swords. However, the martial arts I know don't state their objective as that. Kendo, for example, claims it motivation is "discipline the human character". Arts such as Aikido and Judo have similar goals. Even the Koryu seems to avoid pure technical goals. The traditional objective of Kashima-Shinryu is "first condition the body, then cultivate one's spirit and humanity, and ultimately attain understanding of the creative phenomena of universe".

In my opinion, if you keep seeking the art's objective, you're not defeating its purpose. I don't think old Japanese masters would be mad with me because of my motivation to train their arts. In that sense we are not debating from their intent.

However, this doesn't apply to the degeneration of the arts... maybe there's no way to stop it The warriors of old paid a price for their technical excellence, a price in blood and deaths. For every legendary master thousands of nameless people died. I don't think we want to pay that price again.



Why not?

Because a sport doesn't have the deep Japanese roots I'm looking for. Except sumo, but I don't have the guts for it :)

Gene Williams
8th July 2003, 19:28
I study martial arts because I want to be a Soke and found my own style and make up my own techniques and kata, wear funny clothes, get fat, make outrageous claims that lots of people on these forums will believe, and join the World Head of Family Sokeship Council:D

joe yang
8th July 2003, 21:55
And I want to learn from Gene! :D

Eric Baluja
8th July 2003, 22:06
Originally posted by leoboiko
The warriors of old paid a price for their technical excellence, a price in blood and deaths. For every legendary master thousands of nameless people died. This is closer to my point -- don't we dishonor the dead by perpetuating a flimsy shadow of their hard-won strategies? Don't we, non-martial people, make their sacrifices empty by dancing around in pajamas three or so times a week (or at least as much as our comfy little office jobs allow)? Isn't this sort of hobbyist attitude not much more than spitting on their graves?

Mike Williams
8th July 2003, 22:19
Don't we honour them by keeping arts alive that otherwise would have died out long ago?

I'm sure people more knowledgeable than me will be able to comment on the development of civilian budo from pure battlefield technique, but my impression is that the adaptation of arts for use in peacetime began a long time ago, and was often deliberately done by the then heads of the styles.

Whatever, I really wouldn't worry about it. The dead aren't about to come and kick your a$$ for desecrating their style! :)

Cheers,

Mike

leoboiko
8th July 2003, 22:24
don't we dishonor the dead by perpetuating a flimsy shadow of their hard-won strategies?

We don't have a choice. We can't bring back the dark ages to test and improve our skill slicing people.

As I said, I don't think we're dishonouring anyone as long as we don't forget the main tenets of the arts we train. As for the hard-won strategies, their military usefulness was killed long ago by a musket shot.

:smilejapa

Markaso
8th July 2003, 22:42
Originally posted by Shitoryu Dude

1) Because I enjoy it


:toast:


Originally posted by Shitoryu Dude


And as we get older it gets harder!


Originally posted by Shitoryu Dude
[B

4) Gets me out of the house on a regular basis


Also it is nice to just have your own thing!





Originally posted by Shitoryu Dude



Especially if you study Karate :D


Originally posted by Shitoryu Dude [B
6) Stress relief

Yep ... I teach at a university and where else can a teacher get away with hitting a student and get away with it because it is part of the curriculum :D



Originally posted by Shitoryu Dude
[B
7) Karate guys are cool :cool:

[/B]

Yes, we are. :cool:

Henry
8th July 2003, 22:44
Eric,
You asked: Why don't we just let these things go and find something more applicable to our own lives? I think that most "professionals" have done just that. (Since I'm not a professional I can't be sure of that, I'm much closer to the sword swinging dentist .) :p

If you're looking for a warrior class learning to wage war...I doubt you'll find anything remotely related to warfare in ANY dojo. Joe average is not capable of waging war the way he once may have been, Joe can train all he wants and become a great martial artist but in modern warfare Joe's skills mean nothing. I don't think many folks that train in martial arts believe they'll be transformed into the warriors of the past (or even think about it at all). It might be fun to think about but those days are long gone.

Just my opinion and I could be totally wrong.

Dang it! Leonardo must've been writing at the same time. All that crap I wrote & he says "died with the first musket shot..." Thats what I meant, he just said it better.

Martin Adil-Smi
8th July 2003, 23:07
This may rank as one of the slightly more bizzare answers;

After every session, without fail, I come home aching, bruised, battered, and bloodied.

And I love it.

One licence for a practising masachist!

Gene Williams
8th July 2003, 23:10
Eric, If it really worries you that much, you could take up badminton:D

PwarYuex
9th July 2003, 05:04
Originally posted by Eric Baluja
or live in a dicey part of town

You think you have to live in a dicey part of town to be in need of self defence?

I do martial arts because they are fun, and they are great exercise, both of the mind and of the body.

Simple enough.

txhapkido
9th July 2003, 09:24
Why do I practice? Cause it's fun and I love the sound I make when my bones break!

Eric Baluja
9th July 2003, 11:50
Originally posted by leoboiko
We don't have a choice. We can't bring back the dark ages to test and improve our skill slicing people...As for the hard-won strategies, their military usefulness was killed long ago by a musket shot. I don't know if you train in a Japanese sword art, ‘cause if you did (and the tradition hadn’t been “de-blooded”) you’d see the fairly obvious parallels between the mindset in kenjutsu and teppojutsu. :smilejapa

StanLee
9th July 2003, 12:47
Is it me getting confused, but is this turning into a troll thread??

Anyway, I practice because I too enjoy it. Eric, perhaps if you had stopped questioning yourself too much, you too can enjoy MA.

And as Gene had said "if it really worries you that much, you could take up badminton"!

Stan

Eric Baluja
9th July 2003, 13:00
No trolling here, although I will admit that there's often a fine line between fostering discussion and trolling.

I appreciate where many of you are coming from; it's somewhere I've been for a very long time myself. But, at this stage of the game, I'm afraid that I can't quite bring myself to buy into the "don't-worry-be-happy-shiny-white-pajama-people" way of viewing this. Something about that "unexamined life not being worth living" business keeps popping up for me. I've also probably read too much Amdur for my own good. :) Anyway, if it bothers y'all that much, feel free to just let the thread die, and thanks for the input.

:laugh: Is that shiny and happy enough for youse?

StanLee
9th July 2003, 13:11
Eric,

I'm glad that you didn't take my comment the wrong way.

I do (in a way) understand what you mean about the applicability of the MA that we are learning. I guess that it's a good way to take our training to the next stage. If we don't question the things that we are doing, practicing and thinking, we as MA are not advancing.

I must also guess that the warriors of times past, must have thought the same things you had done. They must have come across a newer way of dispatching someone and thought if their own techniques are still useable.

Stan