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BPhillips
9th July 2003, 18:02
A friend of mine and I recently had a discussion regarding the psychology of confrontation. Often it seems that the simplest request--to put out a smoke in a confined space, etc.--made from a man to another man, or between people of relatively equal power status, can easily escalate because the request is perceived as a personal challenge rather than a request for courtesy and consideration.

I just wonder if some of you have examples of creative de-escalation of confrontational situations where you, or someone else, not only averted violence, but achieved your desired outcome.

I would appreciate some of your feedback on maintaining a balance between not projecting weakness and being assertive enough to get what you want without escalating a situation to the level of violence.

Thank You

Duff
9th July 2003, 18:34
Does it really matter if the person thinks you are weak?

A while ago a group of friends and I went out to the bar to celebrate there softball victory. We were all having a good time and somebody from another team in the league came in and saw them. He came over looking for a fight and got in a friends face and was saying "You guys should never have won. It was all bad calls by the umpire else we would have slaughtered you." Before I could think my friend just agreed and started to tell him how good his team was and bought him a beer. After that the person just couldn't really try to fight him because you don't go around beating up people who think you are cool.

Just by telling someone that they were better he avoided a fight. He could have tried maintain his strength but it just wasn't worth fighting somebody for. It doesn't really matter if somebody thinks your weak unless they are going to harm you in some way because of it.

BPhillips
9th July 2003, 19:43
Thanks for the story.


It doesn't really matter if somebody thinks your weak unless they are going to harm you in some way because of it.

Do you think most people feel this way? How does your answer to that question affect how you handle confrontation?

Soulend
9th July 2003, 22:37
I wish I had a personal anecdote..hopefully I can remember one later that applies. I think Duff's friend handled that wonderfully! Was he a martial artist? Sounds like something Funakoshi would have done.

Ego is responsible for too much violence, from one-on-one confrontations to wars between nations. If taking a step back and dropping the machismo to avoid a needless fight causes a loss of respect, then obviously those who have lost their respect for you are too stupid to see why you did it.

Duff
9th July 2003, 22:42
I think too many people don't feel that way and get forced into situations that they wouldn't have to be in in the first place. I have always avoided almost all confrontation since I was a kid. I am lucky to be big enough to make people think before they want to do anything to me. I also have a look on my face when I get angry enough that people back off when they see it. In high school I was only in 1 fight and that wasn't really a fight. 1 of the upper classemen on the water polo team didn't think I was tough enough so he tried to pick on me but when he made fun of me I just laughed with him. Eventually he gave up and tried to push me around and when I stood up to push back he realized I wasn't really a pushover and backed off.

In another situation I was I was playing hole gaurd against a team that we had a real big rivalry with. I kept blocking his score attempts or jamming everything up so he couldn't play. He got really mad and he started throwing elbows and i responded by keeping him at arms length with a knuckle in the ribs. He got so pissed off the next time he got the ball he faked the shot and punched me instead. While he was doing that I stole the ball and started the counter attack. If I had been worried about looking weaker I probally have gotten into a fight with him. Instead I earned the respect of everybody at the tournament because I had to leave and get 4 stiches but I just kept on playing and didn't stop to fight him.


Originally posted by Soulend
I think Duff's friend handled that wonderfully! Was he a martial artist? Sounds like something Funakoshi would have done.


No he was not a martial artist he is just really good at dealing with people from 5 or 6 years of being a salesman.

BPhillips
9th July 2003, 23:16
Often, when I am out and about, I see people behaving like morons, totally inconsiderate of others around them. I constantly try to think of ways to stop their moronic behavior without escalating situations to violence.

Example: I live in a residential neighborhood where many children play. Often, people drive far faster than is safe. Sometimes I think that I should wave them down and politely but firmly explain to them why it would be good of them to slow it down. I suspect that many people would blow me off and drive off. I may get cussed out etc. However, I wonder how differently they would treat it if my wife did the same thing. Would men see it as less challenge to their egos? Maybe I just need to conduct the experiment.

I studied Criminal Justice, Psychology, and Communications in college. I remember learning that typically female officers did better de-escalating domestic violence situations than male officers. Husband aggressors did not perceive the same sort of challenge to their power and authority from women as from men.

Without going on and on, I specifically wonder about situations where a particular behavior need be changed. Averting violence is one thing. Achieving the desired outcome is another entirely.

BPhillips
9th July 2003, 23:27
I worry that my last post may have seemed terse. Please don't take it as such.

One more thing, since ego is an issue with most people, how best to deal with that and get what you want if your position is morally and ethically sound? Yeah, I know, morals and ethics are relative, but I believe you get the picture.

Thanks again.:)

Duff
9th July 2003, 23:49
Originally posted by peace
Example: I live in a residential neighborhood where many children play. Often, people drive far faster than is safe. Sometimes I think that I should wave them down and politely but firmly explain to them why it would be good of them to slow it down. I suspect that many people would blow me off and drive off. I may get cussed out etc. However, I wonder how differently they would treat it if my wife did the same thing. Would men see it as less challenge to their egos? Maybe I just need to conduct the experiment.


In our neighborhood with speed limits of 25mph people would do 70+ and pass you while there were kids in the street playing. There was a female neighbor who would flag people down and tell them to slow down. Most people just kept going but a few pulled over. Of those who pulled over the majority peeled out and went faster but a few did slow down. We had to get the police to patrol the neighborhood frequently to get people to slowdown.


Originally posted by peace

Often, when I am out and about, I see people behaving like morons, totally inconsiderate of others around them. I constantly try to think of ways to stop their moronic behavior without escalating situations to violence.


Most of the times when people are being stupid I just ignore them. People act like morons all day and if you tried to stop them you would end up in way too many bad situations. Every time you think about confronting the people who are acting like morons you need to question wether it is worth getting into a fight about or could you do something else like go to a different bar or just keep walking down the street to get out of it. A few times when I felt like people were going to get hurt I would call the police on the non emergency number and explain the situation and let them deal with it.

Example: Kid on moped playing tag with friends on roller blades. He would drive around and try to hit them and they would dodge. The police came out and talked to them and I haven't seen them doing it since.


Originally posted by peace

I studied Criminal Justice, Psychology, and Communications in college. I remember learning that typically female officers did better de-escalating domestic violence situations than male officers. Husband aggressors did not perceive the same sort of challenge to their power and authority from women as from men.

I think that it can go both ways. I have seen female officers calm down people where the male officer just seemed to add to the situation. I also witnessed a group of three males just completly ignore a female officer because they thought she was no threat. It was only after the group had all been handcuffed by her and another female officer that showed up that they realized they were wrong.

R Erman
10th July 2003, 03:00
I want to preface this by saying I'm the friend Bill(peace) was referring to in his first post.

I think the initial reaction to the thread may have been based in a misconception of its purpose. We weren't discussing how to de-escalate and maintain our pride, but how to balance projecting enough assuredness to be listened to, yet not be considered a challenge.

Duff, in his last post, gave a very specific example of a female officer who was blown-off because she was not considered a threat to those with whom she was addressing. This is what we are talking about. You can't always accomplish your goal by being meek. In fact this might aggravate the situation. So, is there a middle path that lies between the two extremes? Obviously, there is no magic phrase that will work in verbal confrontation as an immediate salve to both parties pride. But we thought that surely others have explored this aspect of combative psychology, and there might be an approach, or concept to keep in mind that has worked for some of you.

I will admit that I don't like the 'just go somewhere else' response, yet I realize it can be a necessity at times. But this attitude seems to reinforce the insular apathy afflicting our society. Caring commitment is replaced by uncaring selfishness, and those with inappropriate behavior feel justified in their actions through our inaction.

I have a right and a responsibility, within legal means, to preserve the well-being of my family, friends, and community. Is there a way to accomplish this in those day-to-day situations without challenging the egos of those we encounter?

Marc Renouf
10th July 2003, 21:05
Rob Erman wrote:

"Caring commitment is replaced by uncaring selfishness, and those with inappropriate behavior feel justified in their actions through our inaction."

To me, this sort of lies at the heart of the issue of what's wrong with our society. I know that people say, "well if you're mugged, just give him the money." For the most part, from a safety standpoint I would agree, cough up the cash, and be on my merry way. But if every mugger got a severe beatdown from one or more of his victims, I wonder how many fewer muggers there might be.

But even in terms of non-criminal behavior, people are just plain discourteous because most of the time, no one calls them out on it. One that I see all the time is cutting in line. You know how it is, you're waiting in line patiently for a movie or a show or to get into a club, or even at the bank. And some jerkwad just walks straight up to a spot in line and "melds" in. And you know that they know that what they're doing is discourteous because of the way they sort of look around to see who's watching them before they do it (i.e. looking to see if any "authority" figures are around).

It's obnoxious, it's petty, and it says loudly and clearly "I do not respect you as a human being." While I don't advocate going ape-¤¤¤¤ on every poor slob who cuts in line, I do wish that more people would just speak up (so I'm not the only one going, "hey, we're all waiting too, dickhead").

It's not about being violently opposed to discourteous behavior, it's about not wanting to live in a society where discourteous behavior is tolerated and rewarded.

Duff
11th July 2003, 03:26
Most of the times if its something as simple as somebody cutting in line or what not I really don't say anything about it. Most of the people that are doing that are going to see almost any action you take as a challenge and I don't really see like risking a confrontation of any sort over a few minutes of my time. I can be very protective of my friends and family but that is usaully when they are threatened either physically or mentally.

I guess the whole situation comes down to weather you think you need to stop the person from doing whatever it is they are doing. Its not really your job to control the mass public. If you think it is something you need to do you are going to realize that a lot of these people being disrespectful don't care about you. If you are going to ask them to do something and you think they will take it as a challenge do you really want to challenge them. If you are really going to get somebody to do something it really needs to be done out of a mutual understanding. If you go around bullying people to behave they are not going to like you. But then again you don't want to just be submissive to everything. I guess we just have to strike some sort of balance.

Concerning the police I view that as a different matter. Its a police officers job to maintain peace and order. In order to do that they have to be respected but they can't be too aggresive. And playing meek actually worked out in her favor. When she made her aggressive move to take them into custody they were so shocked that they basically just did it for her.

Joseph Svinth
11th July 2003, 03:59
True story.

The Iranians were being a bit more restive than usual at the US Consulate in Tehran in 1977. The local cops got the folks all riled, so they called for the duty Marine to resolve the problem.

Mike Mayman takes the gas grenade, walks out into the room, and says, "Excuse me. Anybody here seen this round ring-like thing? It's the pin to the grenade, and I seem to have dropped it."

Room empties.

Mike goes back to reading his magazine at Post 3.

BPhillips
11th July 2003, 16:53
Hilarious! :D

Jeff Cook
11th July 2003, 17:22
As Joe demonstrated, being absurd and off-the-wall can have a deleterious effect on violent intentions. I would expect nothing less from you, Joe! ;)

Here's one of my absurd stories. While working nightclub security a few years ago (avoiding violence is impossible in that job), I noticed two groups of unrulely patrons squaring off and doing the finger-in-the-chest routine. I walked up into the middle of them (my backup four discrete steps behind) and asked if everything was alright. That normally results in de-escalation; when the patrons realize they are being watched by rather large, fit and trained professionals, they usually calm down.

Not so this time.

All in the groups dropped their eyes to the floor and backed up a step, even though they were still arguing and expaining to me why they were angry with each other. All but one, that is. That one kept his eyes glued on one of the folks from the other group, did not speak, and did not back off. I asked him directly if there was anything I could do for him. After a tense couple of moments (he kept his eyes on his opponent) he made a sudden shift of weight, opened his stance towards me, dropped his head and initiated a punch with his far hand towards me (all of this simultaneously in a split second).

In the interests of peace and good fellowship, as he initiated his attack movement I took a quick sliding step forward, threw my arms around him, and kissed him on the cheek. I loudly proclaimed that I now recognized him, and expressed my joy at seeing him again. He was unable to punch me, as I had my arms firmly around him, and he was a bit taken aback by my greeting. He did not seem quite as joyful as I was at our chance meeting. In fact, he seemed quite a bit embarrassed, and for some reason this seemed to change his nefarious intentions dramatically.

Well, I bought my "friend" a drink, and the rest of the night was quite peaceful.

Don't ask me why I did it - it just seemed to be the right thing to do at that time.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

br_tengu
20th December 2004, 04:03
De-escalation is one the things most neglected in martial arts schools. About this issue I like the works of Richard Dimitri, Peyton Quinn and Geoff Thompson among others. They differ in their approaches, but they all have good advice for you to make up your own mind. I would also recommend a good video by Bill Kipp from Paladin Press "The Missing Link". This video is quite unusual since it deals only with de-escalation and there are no physical techniques presented.

Peyton Quinn rules would be:
(1) Show no Fear
(2) Do not insult them
(3) do not challenge them
(4) give them as easy a face saving exit as possible

Dimitri would advise to:
1. Do not challenge your attacker: “Yeah, what are you gonna do about it?!”
2. Do not threaten your attacker: “Touch me and I’ll kill you”
3. Do not command your attacker: “Relax”
4. Do not insinuate your attacker is wrong: “I wasn’t looking at your girlfriend”

As for creative and very unusual de-escalation tactics, Peyton would use sometimes what he called "crazy man act": He would have a crazy look in his eyes and look right into theirs and breathe heavily and say something like "I know who you are, they said you would come, they just changed your face but I know it's you!", then he would look to the ceiling "You can't fool me I see him". He would shout this so loudly that almost everyone would hear. That puts attention on the potential aggressors and they generally don't want that, besides nobody wants to screw with crazy people.

In another forum Dimitri recalls a woman who used to take the subway in NYC every evening from work. The subway would always go through an unsavory part of the city and collect some 'unfavorable' passengers. The woman used to keep a bunch of caramel candy in her purse and a few stations prior to the unsavory stations, she would pop one in her mouth, let it melt and slowly drool out some of the brown liquid from her lips while catatonically staring into nothing. The unsavory characters would avoid her like the plague.

Sincerely,

Reinaldo Y.