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O'Neill
10th July 2003, 19:07
As budoka we are often taught aspects of various eastern philosophies but does anyone hold as much value to Western thought. The greek classics must be just as deep. They even speak of many of the same concepts- duality,etc.

Anyone care to compare and educate us on the differences? I know that most cultures have thoughts on internal power (ki/qui) yin and yang (though phrased differently). They seem to be just universal truths.

Vapour
11th July 2003, 00:04
Hmmm, for what I see, there are distinct lack of mysticism in so-called Western tradition. For what I know of Greek philosophy is mainly about logic and intellectual speculation albeit ther are lot of cosmological argument due to their lack of scientific knowledge.

elder999
11th July 2003, 00:24
The Greeks gave us the very word for mysticism. The Greek word MUO means, “to shut the eyes or mouth.” MUO is closely related to the verb MUEO, “to initiate into the mysteries.” The closed eyes and mouth in this context do not signify blindness or muteness, but secrecy and silence, and the order not to reveal the secrets of the initiation and revelation that one had received. These Greek root-words have given us “mystic” and “mysticism,” “mystery” and “mysterious,” as well as “mute.” Every time we talk about mysticism we speak a bit of Greek.

But what exactly is Mysticism? The word is often downgraded to mean superstition, priestcraft, occultism or magic, or other things regarded as irrational, all of which are somewhat related to mysticism and the mystical life. But the basic meaning of “mysticism” has to do with the relationship of human beings to a divinity or deity, or, for non-theists, “ultimate reality.” Mysticism is about direct contact between human beings and this divine reality. This contact, when mystics try to speak about it, is said to be ineffable and indescribable – yet for thousands of years, those mystics have given us many exact and definite testimonies of their experiences.

Mysticism is “introverted.” It is an “inner” experience, taking place within the consciousness of an individual human being. The characteristic expression of this individual “inwardness” is Plotinus’ famous phrase, “the flight of the Alone to the Alone.” Yet there is also an “extroverted” mysticism, which is found in ritual and communal contexts, in liturgy, initiation into a group, and sometimes in visions seen by many people at once. And though mysticism is thought to be “irrational,” there is also a form of it, which I would call “rationalist mysticism,” which builds systems of ideas and symbols onto the base of an intuitive, mystical revelation.

Both kinds of mysticism occur in the ancient Greek world, though the “extroverted” kind is more easily traceable. And in most cases, the “introverted” and the “extroverted” were both present in a mystical practice, rite, or event. The practice of ritual or liturgy would, it was hoped, lead to an individual experience of insight or a meeting with an otherworldly and divine being.

The roots of Greek mysticism are very old, as old as the earliest Greek expansion through the Eastern Mediterranean in the 7th century BCE. A major scholarly chronicler of this encounter was E.R.Dodds, who in the early 1950s wrote a book, which is now, a classic, called THE GREEKS AND THE IRRATIONAL. This book counters the then-common myth (which is still promoted by some scholars and philosophers) that Greek culture was one of pure rationalism and non-mythological, proto-scientific thought. Certainly those things were important in Greek culture, but they are not the whole story. In his book, Dodds shows how non-rational elements were integrated into the spiritual and philosophical life of ancient Greece.

...and now,Hajime, I'll "post the link":;)

http://home.dmv.com/~vincent/HMGS.htm

The Greeks had their own ancient system of Kabbalah, a mystical fascination with mathematics and numerology, alphabetism, and an oracular tradition.....

Vapour
11th July 2003, 00:36
Well then, it's seem to be more to do with emphasis of modern time.

Having said it, i never came across any classical greek/roman or medieval Christian document which show the level of sophistication equaling Islamic Sufisim, Hindu/Buddist yogic tradition or Taoist Qigong. Just like martial arts, meditative practice are arts. It's either being lost or it was never a big thing in the West.

elder999
11th July 2003, 00:53
The Christian contemplative and mystic traditions have much of their roots in Greek mysticism. You need to read, if you haven't, Hildegarde de Bingen and Meister Eckhart, as well as some of the commentary associated with them. The commentaries would help with any language difficulty-unless you read High German or Latin....

The Greek word for spirit is "pneuma," which primarily indicates the wind or air, as does the Hebrew word of the Old Testament, "ruwach." The one, great Spirit is composed of our spirits, and true worship, or attunement, is achieved by "moving" into the spirit or breathing.

You just need to look deeper.......

As for being lost, or never a big thing, well, they never were a big thing, and were surpressed by the Catholic Church....surpressed? Hell, people died......

Vapour
11th July 2003, 01:14
You are slightly missing point. My focus is practice not idea. When I said meditation being arts, I refer to more systematic collection of techniques.

Meditation is not just about siting quietly or praying for long period and suddenly feeling one with universe/cosmo. In fact, in many meditative arts, such state is often described as just elementary stage or even dangerous as you could drawn in such state.

Even in elementary meditation, there are whole lot of technique involving correct posture, breathing technique to minute detail such as position of your tongue as well as use of imagiery, I practice taichichuan which contain very elementary form of qigong/meditative practice. I also happen to have friend who is part of Sufi (islamicy mysticism) order. When he read some of instruction manual I was given in my taijiquan, he expressed mild suprise because much of thing written in it was identical.

My understanding is that ancient greek or medieval european never came close to constructing coherent *system* of mysticism.

cguzik
11th July 2003, 15:34
Western approaches tend to incorporate the assumption that we can capture reality through conceptual means.

But the fact that any language is limited in the extent of what can be described would seem to imply that there is more to experience than can be captured with language or conceptual thinking.

Eastern approaches tend to make this notion explicit, while western approaches seem to try to deny it.

I think that the analytical approach of western thought is beneficial in enabling us to do science. I think that the experiential approach of eastern thought is beneficial in enabling us to not forget that the subject of our thoughts or language is different from what really is.