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lyam
19th September 2000, 21:04
Greetings fellow budoka and budoists!

A question has been on my mind lately... Why is it that so many martial traditions claim an ethical/moral change in an individual who practices these arts (specifically Gendai)when it appears that many who practice do not change?
:idea: Is it because the impetus for change occurs within a person? If that is the case, then how is martial arts any better a tool at developing moral character than polishing a mirror with sand? Or for that matter eating brussel sprouts while smiling?

I guess I know what I think... but I'm very interested in others' ideas and opinions!

**(this post is not intended to repeat my post in Gendai Budo forum, it is more an attempt at getting to the heart of how personal change occurs, while the other is just asking for examples of said change)

kusanku
20th September 2000, 03:42
Well, you know Sean, I don't think practice of or training in Budo, or bujutsu, alone, does change character,I thuink combining that with a philosophical underpinning of some sort, or relgious training, or such emphasison the part of certain instructors, is what would bring about any such changes.

Truthfully, I do not see where repeating throws, falls, punches, kicks or sword cuts thousands of times is going to automatically improve anyones character.

Now, if you use it as an Art, to focus your spirit completely into the act, so that in some sense, you lose the sense of self,in a Zen or meditative way, it is possible that some realizations occur, but no more than would occr than doing a tea ceremony, or making a piece of notepaper, or eating broccoli while smiling, would.

But if as many do, one's urpose in studying budo or bujutsu is to learn to kick butt, you are not going to be changing your character in any meaningful way except possibly for the worse, and indeed, Founders of the gendai budo, judo, karate do, and aikido, all warn of this misuse of the arts, so they must have known it was more than possible for the arts to be misused.

If one does not have any martial or self defensive intention in studying martal ways or arts, as many claim they do not:-), then why study these, why not take up pure religion or philosophy or the study of the different Systems of these, and find some non-militant excercise to go with this, or even practice a Budo having little or no use in today's combat, like Kyudo, or Yabusame?

Now if a Japanese archer tells me they have no interest in actually shooting someone with a mediaeval Longbow, I believe them.But why do I not believe a pracitioner of empty hand or current weapons arts if they say the same?

Maybe because as a practitioner of some of these arts, I know too many people in them who do not change their characters, who do wish to learn to use the art in real situations albeit defensively ,only, for most of us,and even practitioners of modern Aikido and Taiji Ch'uan seem preoccupied at least these days with combat applications of their arts.

With which I find nothing wrong, person has to have a hobby.:-)

But do let's be honest, if improving character is what the martial arts is really for, exactly how and by what excercises is this done, is a good question, one to which I have no answer.

How its done in religion, I know, in philosophy likewise.And if elements of these are included and emphasized and I mean really emphasized along with martial training, then, sre- you can see it.Shaolin Monks reading Buddhist sutras, meditating, doing charitable deeds and praying to the Buddhas to help them each live a more selfless and better life, that is religious training that can be done without studying martial arts.

Samurai studying Zen Buddhism to learn to be ore selfless and give their lives with equanimity, another example of religious and philosophical training.

But modern budo competition or self defense oriented training developing or changing character and strengthening ones spirit?

Dont know about that, at all.

John

Yamantaka
20th September 2000, 15:27
[QUOTE]Originally posted by lyam
[B]Why is it that so many martial traditions claim an ethical/moral change in an individual who practices these arts (specifically Gendai)when it appears that many who practice do not change?

YAMANTAKA : IMHO, training in martial arts will not change ethically or morally an individual. Does any religion make saints of all their adherent ? Or learning an art (painting, sculpting, music) make all artists superior people ?
You get what you put into the jar. It depends on that, on your interest, on your dedication and on your teacher's teaching, as well as on the understanding of how your art's waza applies to your dayly life.
ALTWIF

Yamantaka
20th September 2000, 15:31
[QUOTE]Originally posted by lyam
[B]Why is it that so many martial traditions claim an ethical/moral change in an individual who practices these arts (specifically Gendai)when it appears that many who practice do not change?

YAMANTAKA : IMHO, training in martial arts will not change ethically or morally an individual. Does any religion make saints of all their adherent ? Or learning an art (painting, sculpting, music) make all artists superior people ?
You get what you put into the jar. It depends on that, on your interest, on your dedication and on your teacher's teaching, as well as on the understanding of how your art's waza applies to your dayly life.
ALTWIF

pboylan
21st September 2000, 03:10
An article I wrote for "Nakaima" about this issue in Aikido is at:
http://budogu.com/html/aikido_as_a_spiritual_practice.htm

Peter Boylan

lyam
21st September 2000, 15:00
Peter,
Thanks for the interesting read. I think you've hit the nail on the head, particularly with your summary statement:

<i>"If martial arts in general, and Aikido in particular, are going to be ways of personal and spiritual development, then we have to work just as hard at fixing the weaknesses in ourselves as people as we do at fixing the weaknesses in our techniques."</i>

On another note, you mention <b>shugyo</b> in terms of <i>ascetic practice</i>. By this do you mean <i>constant, intensive practice</i> is a means of self trandformation? I'm interested in further understandings of the word <b>shugyo</b> as well as <b>haragei</b>.

glad2bhere
21st September 2000, 16:06
Hi Everyone:

Since "change" has a lot to do with how I earn my bread and butter, I thought that I would add one or two points.

The first point is that as a therapist there is no-where near consensus on what constitutes change. With the vets with whom I work a "success" may be an increased period of time between sleep-disturbances or flashbacks. But another vet may have to be assessed differently based on his experiences, condition and issues. I think to assess "change" as it appears to be used in the context of this discussion may require a bit more clarification. For instance, in my case perhaps we may be talking about the reduced frequency with which I violate the 8--Fold Path (Precepts) of my faith.

A second point, tied to the first is that to one degree or another "change" is something of a self-fullfilling mechanism. By this I mean that the nature and direction (even the rapidity) of change correlates closely with the individuals' goals and intentions. I have had quite a few clients who have been mandated for therapy by the courts. The courts want a change of deportment and I am suggested as an option. The individual, however, has another agenda, and while they may comply with our appts they never quite seem to get off the proverbial dime in the "change" department. In this way a person might study Karate, or Judo or even --- Gawd Forbid--- Hapkido, and while learning the mechanisms never development a value system that allows them or prevents them from utilizing these skills in deference to circumstances.

Please excuse me if I seem to be overstating the obvious, but I wanted to be sure that I wasn't hearing that character development while closely tied to MA training does not necessarily follow routinely.

Best Wishes,
Bruce W Sims
http://www.midwesthapkido.com