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nuu
12th July 2003, 15:22
Press-ups are evil and unnecessary.

Some dojos seem keen on press-ups (or push-ups) as part as the warm-up/warm-down. Luckily, some are not. :)

I can see the value of push-ups for strenthening and building of upper-body muscles, but who needs muscles in Shorinji Kempo? If you do, why not tell most of the female members to give it up now?

I do understand that testosterone gets the better of some people (and not only men) once in the dojo, resulting in the urge to demonstrate their own physical prowess and, I assume, all in the mistaken belief that building up muscles is all part of the healthy body angle. However, I do not think press-ups should play a part in taiso. Most definitely not if they are enforced either verbally or indirectly with dirty looks to anyone who does not instantly drop to the floor with eagerness!!

Hands up all those women who enjoy press-ups (push-ups)! Hands up all those males who do not enjoy them either AND have the confidence to admit it.

Yes, it's generally the women who can't handle the press-ups, for the very good reason that from puberty onwards testorone vastly increases muscle size and strength. But then, if the martial art concerned does not require superior muscle strength, then this is not a problem. Or at least, it shouldn't be !

Aside from the above, there is also the danger of injury to the elbow joint similarly, I believe, to the way damage can be caused to knees by squats or to the lower back by sit-ups with legs flat on the ground.

Supporting your body weight on your elbows and then slowly reducing the angle can cause excessive strain to that joint and consequently new injury or exacerbation of "dodgy" elbows. Particularly if you have your elbows sticking out. Strengthening of the lower arm muscles to alleviate elbow strain is not part of taiso either.
But who at taiso instructs on the correct way of doing press-ups, or gives guidance on short-cuts (knees on the floor etc) when the primary aim appears to be a demonstration of how to do 30 press-ups at maximum speed?

Why the need for such upper-body development anyway?
Why build up biceps/shoulder muscles etc, when thigh muscles do not get the same attention?
Why force exercises of this type on unwilling kenshi?:D

Steve Williams
12th July 2003, 23:18
HI Melita.....

Nothing like a "hot potato" on a Saturday night ;)


So lets see if I can answer/shed light on your questions/concerns.

Some branches do like press ups..... mine included (but not every lesson).
Press ups are the primary method of increasing upper body strength and conditioning without other equipment.

We all need muscles in shorinji kempo, admitedly not a great deal of muscular strength, but you do need a "level" of strength.
If anyone tells you that you "DO NOT NEED STRENGTH" either they are lying, or they are Mori sensei (i.e. been training most of their life, and are now not strong due to age).

Testosterone gets the better of some people when they walk down the street.... you will never change that, whether you do press ups or not..... a fact of life.
Having a "conditioned" body IS all part of the healthy body angle.
By conditioned, that does mean a "level of muscularity", not necessarily a "bodybuilder" physique, but one carrying a degree of muscle. Again, this is a fact of life.
People who do anything to extrems are not necessarily healthy.....
But we are talking about a few press ups, not competing in Mr Olympia (thats the top body building contest in the world, in case you didn't know ;) ).

My hand is up....... I do "enjoy" press ups..... OK "enjoy" may be a little strong, but I can/do do them, and have no problem with doing them.
Michelles hand is up as well..... and she can do as many press ups as a lot of men (and thats not meant to be a testosterone induced comment.... just a fact :) )

Women have problems doing press ups because of the testosterone difference, but also because of the fact that women have stronger lower bodies than upper bodies......
No martial art requires superior muscular strength, read what I wrote above for the rest ;)

The "damage to joints" bit is a myth.
Any exercise performed correctly will not damage any joints.
I used to squat over 300lbs for multiple repetitions when I trained regularly in a gym.... and I used to drop my bum almost to the floor.
With EXCELLENT FORM.
In fact my knees were better doing squats this way, than doing a "partial" rep.

A press up does not support the body weight on the elbows, in the same way that bending your legs does not support all your body weight on your knees.
You cannot have "dodgy elbows" from doing press ups..... unless you are doing them very wrong, as stated above.

I tell people how to press up properly, and I tell women to put their knees on the floor if they cannot do "normal" press ups.

There is a need for a "level" of upper body development (see above)....
The reason for building your arms/shoulders is to assist in your kempo movement.......
Thighs do not get the same attention, as they are being worked constantly (as we are bipedal) If we walked on our hands all the time we would be having the same conversation about squatting.....


No exercise should be "forced" on anyone, but if you trust your insrtuctor then you should do the exercises they suggest/advocate.
If you feel uncomfortable about a specific exercise then you should ask them about said exercise.... they should have a valid reason for doing it, and should be able to explain the reason and the muscle/muscle group it is working, and why it is important to your practice.


So if this does not "explain"... then come on down to my branch, and I will show you how to press up correctly, and show you how it is a complimentary practice to your Shorinji practice. ;) :D

Sammy Briggs
12th July 2003, 23:55
I agree strongly with Mr. Williams. In almost all martial arts, there is a need for some type of physical conditioning. Just the repeatition of a technique is a form of conditioning in itself. Push ups are a great way of developing upper body strength without developing the undesired bulk (however, anyone who believes that bulk slows you down should watch an old Tyson fight). Through doing push ups and other similar exercises, you also increase your endurance.

I also believe however, that sometimes an exercise has to be forced upon someone. Most people are pretty lazy and don't know their limits. This means they will quit before realizing just how far they can actually go. With a little motivation, you can always squeeze a few more reps out of somebody. Anyone who gives up before even breaking a sweat should not even be allowed in class, as this demonstrates how motivated they are to train hard. This doesn't mean killing a student, however, and if the exercise aggrivates an old injury, it should not be done.

My aikido teacher, Obata Toshishiro Sensei, used to do 300 push ups before each class, six days a week while training as an uchideshi at Yoshinkan. And this was aikido, where students are not supposed to muscle a technique. He said that the mat space directly under his body would be soaking wet with sweat. He also used to do just as many squats. He is now in his 50's and has no knee or elbow problems.

Sammy Briggs
Hollywood Branch

jonboy
13th July 2003, 14:34
I believe press-ups do have a place in class also. If you don't want to do the full movements we do for kihon in taiso (sports specific exercise and such like) then press-ups are probably (I am willing to be corrected here) the next best thing. They get your arm muscles moving in a similar direction to a punch and if done correctly then in a controlled manner. This means a good warm up for the arms.

appears to be a demonstration of how to do 30 press-ups at maximum speed?
Why would anyone want to do press-ups at speed? This is one of the things that is not good for you. Also if you do press-ups slowly then they have more beneficial strengthening aspects.

I tell women to put their knees on the floor if they cannot do "normal" press ups.
As far as I know, this should have nothing to do with womens strength. Women SHOULD do press-ups on their knees. Always. It is to do with their physiology. Doing full pressups puts strain on the pelvic region which can have consequences when it comes to pregnancy and child birth.

Have a good rest of the weekend.

Jon

shugyosha
13th July 2003, 16:03
ki dispertion or qi dispertion is what happened when the ki can not circulate in a part in the body.
muscle mean tension in the body and stiffness, it means allso acumulation of blood. all of these require more effort, from the heart to pomp blood and ultimatly weaken the body.
Press up are part of external martial art because external use phisical strengh as a way to issue energy.

but shorinji kempo is not external or internal to me, you can the way that suit to you, but of course, one will only last your young years and another all your life.

now here is the trick to do press up without tension. concentrate on you ki-kai, relax and breath deeply before to take position and relax the mind. when you push, do not use the arm to bring you up, but your hara (belly) only, from the ki kai in the tanden,
in this way you can do 20, 30, 40, 50 push without been tired. and it will develop the ki in the tanden as well.

and the reason why many dojo like to use push up (but i´ve seen many not using it) is because as meaning martial art shorinji is taugh by men most of the time.

ps: this trick can applied this trick to any other external exercise, but one need to train daily at home to get use to use and avoid all tensions


I believe press-ups do have a place in class also. If you don't want to do the full movements we do for kihon in taiso (sports specific exercise and such like) then press-ups are probably (I am willing to be corrected here) the next best thing. They get your arm muscles moving in a similar direction to a punch and if done correctly then in a controlled manner. This means a good warm up for the arms
there is not hip movement in press up, with render them as usefull as a karate punch to shorinji kempo


As far as I know, this should have nothing to do with womens strength. Women SHOULD do press-ups on their knees. Always. It is to do with their physiology. Doing full pressups puts strain on the pelvic region which can have consequences when it comes to pregnancy and child birth
i never quite understood the utility of doing press up on the knee, neither for the muscle of the energy.


Why would anyone want to do press-ups at speed? This is one of the things that is not good for you. Also if you do press-ups slowly then they have more beneficial strengthening aspects.

if press up are done slowly, more muscle mass is get, and you get also much SLOWER make an experiment after 50 or 60. Full speed is less mass bluid but more energy consuming to me

jonboy
13th July 2003, 17:23
there is not hip movement in press up
Obviously! Hence the comment about it being a good warm up for the ARMS.

Full speed is less mass bluid but more energy consuming to me
I believe many people would disagree with this comment. Less mass build is true, but if you were to do press-ups slowly (which I also think means properly) you would be able to do less than if you were to do them quickly. Therefore it must take more energy to do them slowly. Perhaps you mean the difference is whether the exercise is aerobic or anaerobic? It is quite often a misconception, but press-ups are almost always aerobic.

Natsu
13th July 2003, 19:46
I agree with what you all say about physical training, stamina and fitness playing an important part in all martial arts. I concede that a reasonable amount of upper body strength is helpful, but a serious session of kihon does a pretty good job too.
However,if press-ups/push-ups are to have a place in taiso, then this should incorporate the following points:


No exercise should be "forced" on anyone, but if you trust your insrtuctor then you should do the exercises they suggest/advocate.

I agree with you there, Steve. Hopefully the instructors will know what's best, but this trust should not be blind. Instructors are human, hence fallible. Never forget what your own body is telling you and be given the freedom to listen to what it's saying.


Most people are pretty lazy and don't know their limits. This means they will quit before realizing just how far they can actually go.

Oh yes, Sammy - laziness is unfortunately part of human nature. But people should be allowed to push themselves to their own limits - and then *guide* them (ie not bully) in the way to overcoming this. This also means not expecting women to do as many as the men; if they can voluntarily keep up, fair enough.
Besides, the perversity of people is such that if you let them do less, they will then want to do more ;)

- instruct on the correct way of doing this exercise; taiso sessions I have attended at various sessions have been accompanied by guidance on breathing and the correct way of doing it to get the maximum benefit and not cause injury. Not so with press-ups. But maybe I have just not heard the instructions while I'm doing a splendid impression of an 80-year old bag of bones on the floor?



The "damage to joints" bit is a myth.
Any exercise performed correctly will not damage any joints.
I used to squat over 300lbs for multiple repetitions when I trained regularly in a gym.... and I used to drop my bum almost to the floor.
With EXCELLENT FORM.
In fact my knees were better doing squats this way, than doing a "partial" rep.


Steve, if this is the case, and your knees have survived you are very lucky indeed. Putting such pressure on the knees when they are at such a sharp angle overstretches the ligaments and causes permanent damage. The reason it would have been easier is that you were using your knees and momentum to lever yourself up, rather than use the thigh muscles alone to lift your body. Conversely, doing it properly will strengthen the thigh muscles and take pressure off the knee ligaments.

Don't want to be nasty, but this is a bit like an aged smoker claiming there is no harm in cigarettes as he's smoked since he was a kid and they've never done him any harm. There are always exceptions to the rule, but the rules should not be based on this exception.

And talking of damage - knuckle press-ups may appear macho to men (apparently...) but they are very bad knews for your fingers. There are no muscles in the fingers to strengthen. Only bones and delicate ligaments which are all to easily damaged.

nuu
13th July 2003, 19:51
My apologies !!

Last post is actually posted by nuu,
and supposed to have my signature below.

David Dunn
14th July 2003, 01:12
ice and contentious Melita.

I don't think that press-ups should be banned. If they are done in class, then it should be with improving your Shorinji Kempo technique in mind. I like the "count ten down, and quickly push up" method, because they are designed for the explosive use of the triceps which is crucial for good tsuki. On daikento too. For the same reason kusshin (or squats) is also useful for good keri. On the other hand I agree that press-ups and other 'fitness' based exercise shouldn't replace Shorinji Kempo technical training, or be done without reference to it, and certainly not too much time should be spent on it.

I would like to endorse Steve's comment:


If anyone tells you that you "DO NOT NEED STRENGTH" either they are lying, or they are Mori sensei

Ultimately you do not need strength: that is obvious from seeing the Shoriniji Kempo masters. But where is the short-cut to the Mori, or Mizuno Sensei style 'soft' Shorinji Kempo? Both of them were 'hard' to start with, and learned the 'ju' approach later, with the benefit of a solid base of form and technique (and 300 press ups a day in the case of Mizuno Sensei). Ask anyone who has been in the BSKF more than ten years what Sensei used to be like.

Goju ittai comes from first mastering goho - you cannot bypass it. All of the characteristics have an order: ken zen ichinyo, not zen ken ichinyo; riki ai funi, not ai riki funi, goju ittai, not jugo ittai. Why? Because the hardness/strength/ken is prerequisite to having the effective softness/compassion/zen. Personally, I feel very priviledged to have been exposed to Mori, Arai, Yamazaki, Mizuno and many more Sensei's approach to juho, and I will continue to try to 'get it'. In the meantime, I think it also best to try to impove my atemi and goho in general, and to do it with as much strength and conviction as possible. Overcoming hardships through your own effort is what Shorinji Kempo is about. You can genderise it as 'macho' if you like. Personally I think that it is an admirable trait to develop.

On a different note:


Hopefully the instructors will know what's best, but this trust should not be blind. Instructors are human, hence fallible.

In budo, your trust for you teacher should be blind (there's a thread hanging in the air around here somewhere), fallabilities and all. The teacher's side of the bargain is to be trustworthy and benevolent. The teacher owes the student nothing, but gives it anyway. Why come to a martial art if you don't want what the teacher offers in total? Perhaps they DO know better than you. Perhaps you DO need to push yourself beyond what your body is telling you. My body never agreed that it should arc through the air over someone's back, but I had to do it. It's a demon to be exorcised, not indulged.

Steve Williams
14th July 2003, 18:40
Yes David....

I do remember the "marathon hard barstuard" sessions of the "old Mizuno sensei" (old not in years... but in chronology from now backwards ;) )

A couple of hundred press ups before and after :eek: the session were not unheard of..... along with marathon zuki/keri sessions.....
Made us the kenshi we are today ;)


Melita.... doing press ups on your knuckles WILL NOT harm your fingers. (again if they are done correctly).
You must make a correct fist, and then ensure that you have a straight line from your knuckle bone to your elbow.
Then all the stress is taken directly along the arm via the first 2 or 3 knuckles, the fingers are only acting to "balence" you on the floor (if you don't understand then come to one of my lessons ;) )

This is the same angle as your hand/forearm presents when punching, so (if done correctly) it is an excellent exercise which not only strengthens/tones your upper body, but increases the strength and more importantly the form of the wrist for when you do punch.

Senjojutsu
14th July 2003, 20:58
My first question, is this problem specific to Shorinji Kempo (thread location)?

Hello Melita,
As the "Bad Sensei" named John Kreese of the Cobra Kai (The Karate Kid Movies) would say, "Give me sixty push-ups on your knuckles, now!!
"Yes Sensei!" the adolescence voice cracked.
:D

On a serious note, I remember the "urban legend" of a supposed analysis of PT training programs of major US police departments. It showed that the personal bias/history of the Academy Superintendent dictated the type of training regime for recruits.

That is, if the Superintendent was an ex-Marine, guess what, the PT training was a civilian version of a USMC Recruit Depot. If the superintendent was an ex-amateur boxer, the recruits spent lots of time in a ring. An ex-track and fielder, the recruits jogged/sprinted their arses off through police training. In other words, an independent analysis to answer the fundamental question of what physical fitness skill sets a modern day police officer needed was of a secondary consideration.

Something to think about when any Sensei or Dojo spends an inordinate matter of time on any one thing.

Except of course, the time and thing on what you are paying tuition to be taught!
;)

tony leith
14th July 2003, 22:33
I find myself agreeing with our guest Senjojutsu. Press ups are fine as an element of training as are other fitness work outs, but NOT in my view to the detriment of the activity people have actually signed up to do. I have to admit my views on this have changed, perhaps not entirely coincidentally, as I've got older. I used to be an advocate of the taiso till you drop approach, but it eventually dawned on me that this was perhaps sub optimal as a preparation for training. That being said, 'strength is part of your technique' (TM Mizuno Sensei), and there is an argument to be made for saying that if you find them challenging, well that's part of what we do Kempo for...

Yours equivocating cheerfully

Tony leith

David Dunn
14th July 2003, 23:50
Yours equivocating cheerfully

You and me both Tony :D

btw - is your yahoo mail address no longer working?

Steve Williams
15th July 2003, 21:39
As it has been said, this is not Shorinji Kempo specific.

So I am going to copy it to the "budo and the body" forum.

We will see if we get a different (non-Shorinji) answer......

mews
28th July 2003, 22:18
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I tell women to put their knees on the floor if they cannot do "normal" press ups.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


As far as I know, this should have nothing to do with womens strength. Women SHOULD do press-ups on their knees. Always. It is to do with their physiology. Doing full pressups puts strain on the pelvic region which can have consequences when it comes to pregnancy and child birth.

--

goodness, where did you hear this one?

I have spent 20+ years doing karate, including lots 'n lots ' lots of pushups, and nothing has fallen out [yet]. a few more years and i'll hit menopause - maybe everything will go splat then. the suspense.

actually, the thing to watch out for is breaking form coming up - arching your back, raising your shoulders, twisting and generally using every muscle in your face :) to avoid touching your knees to the floor when you are out of strength to do those last few reps.

that _will_ damage you - your lower back will not like it at all.

so, if you are going to do pushups, do your situps so you can stabilize your trunk, and when you can't hold form any more - go down straight, touch your knees and come up, then straiten your legs and go down.... these 'halfsies' will let you get a few more off without injuring yourself.

knuckles - refer to lots 'n lots above -
my hands are fine, thank you.
[not typing with my nose]

mew

:::wanders off, muttering 'the things my GYN never told me":::

PeteBoyes
29th July 2003, 12:34
When I was a Junior judoka, I recall Masutaro Otani (one of the British Judo Council founders) getting very excited and admonishing one of my training partners for doing press/push-ups. One of his arguments was that you don't want to push people away in judo, you want to pull them onto your technique.

I often use this as an excuse as to why I am useless at press-ups.

I believe pressups can be used to demonstrate a Judo principle regarding balance. Get the students to adopt the press-up position, but with their hands not directly under their shoulders. Let them compare the time they can stay in that position with the time spent when their hands are in the 'correct' position directly below their shoulders. When balanced, a lot less effort is required to maintain posture.

For those of you seriously into press-ups, try this link http://www.recordholders.org/en/list/pushups.html

For you speed freaks, you could attempt to beat 138 in a minute. Or how about a marathon 10,507 non-stop, or even 1,500,230 in a year.

Jim_Jude
10th August 2003, 19:33
Originally posted by Sammy Briggs
I agree strongly with Mr. Williams. In almost all martial arts, there is a need for some type of physical conditioning. Just the repeatition of a technique is a form of conditioning in itself. Push ups are a great way of developing upper body strength without developing the undesired bulk (however, anyone who believes that bulk slows you down should watch an old Tyson fight). Through doing push ups and other similar exercises, you also increase your endurance.
I also believe however, that sometimes an exercise has to be forced upon someone. Most people are pretty lazy and don't know their limits. This means they will quit before realizing just how far they can actually go. With a little motivation, you can always squeeze a few more reps out of somebody. Anyone who gives up before even breaking a sweat should not even be allowed in class, as this demonstrates how motivated they are to train hard. This doesn't mean killing a student, however, and if the exercise aggrivates an old injury, it should not be done.
My aikido teacher, Obata Toshishiro Sensei, used to do 300 push ups before each class, six days a week while training as an uchideshi at Yoshinkan. And this was aikido, where students are not supposed to muscle a technique. He said that the mat space directly under his body would be soaking wet with sweat. He also used to do just as many squats. He is now in his 50's and has no knee or elbow problems.

Sammy Briggs
Hollywood Branch

Damn skippy. I totally agree. I do vyayam exercises (dandas & bethaks & bridging plus others, basically hi-rep yoga movements) & I've never had any "real" untolerable joint pain, just my connective tissues adapting, nothing that exceeded the pain I experiences when I used to lift weights. My pure strength doesn't grow as quickly moving my own body weight as it would lifting weights, you can hit a ceiling once you can easily move your body doing a specific calisthenic movement. But then, all I have to do is eat more & I have some more weight to work out with, & you can vary the exercise. Strength gains can be made very easily with calisthenics, just vary the exercises & your diet. My flexibility & endurance are hit at the same time when doing calisthenics also.
Plus, people don't really do the math when looking at calisthenics. If you find that two hand pushups are easy (which is pushing approx. 60% of your body wt), try doing the same amount of reps but with one-handed pushups, doing equal reps/sets for each side. Then throw your feet up on a milk crate, or a chair, or do some handstand pushups. Now that's strength, & it builds balance, biomechanical awareness & proprioception all at the same time. Who has time to go lift at the gym, do cardio, and do specific exercises for all of those things when you could just do gymnastic vyayam calisthenics? I know I don't. If you do, then good on ya.

Jim_Jude
10th August 2003, 23:38
When looking at the results of Indian fighters using calisthenics (bodyweight or supplementing bw w/ weighted garments of various types) compared to other wrestlers that lifted weights almost exclusively, it's difficult to argue with the results.
See http://www.ejmas.com in the InYo journal under "Lion of Punjab". This series of four articles sights the influx of Indian wrestlers & their traditional training methods into the Western sports arena, & how they dominated their peers in the West for quite some time.

from Percy Longhurst, a wrestling & sports writer from the turn of the century:

"The Indian system of training… has results beyond the development of great strength; it creates most remarkable powers of endurance while at the same time increasing agility. Gama, Imam Bux, Ahmed Bux – all when in action, impressed by the cat-like activity of their movements, the feline readiness with which their muscles responded to the demands of the moment, which is one of the attributes that make for the winning of falls."

a quote from the InYo journal: A correspondent for The Sporting Life wrote an interesting account of Gama in training for the Roller match, which is worth quoting:


"To watch Gama at work (a legendary Indian/Pakistani wrestler who almost exclusively worked with calisthenics & bodyweight exercises) is to realise that one is looking at a master of his craft. That is, provided one has not a prejudiced conception of what is his craft. He is there on the mat to get his man down on his shoulders, and it is obvious that the paramount thought in the Indian’s mind is that the quicker his opponent is defeated the greater is the credit due to himself.
He is not wrestling with one eye on his adversary and one on the spectators. He is not speculating on the effect his wrestling may have on future engagements. At the moment there is only one thing to be done: to put his man down as soon as may be.

There is no wasting of time playing for head holds or holds of any other kind. He doesn’t play for holds at all, he goes in and takes them, and should it happen that his opponent is clever enough to avoid the first attack he also has to be ready to meet the next, which comes upon him with lightning rapidity.

Quickness is perhaps the Indian champion’s quality which most impresses the onlooker. The latter is apt to overlook the tremendous force which is concentrated in the Indian’s rapid movements. Gotch is said to be quick, he has laughed at all the European wrestlers he has met because of their elephantine slowness. The cinematograph pictures of his contests with Hackenschmidt and Zbysco proved that by comparison with them he is quick. He has declared, and he has realised, that quickness is strength; that quickness in a wrestling bout is of infinitely more importance than mere physical bulk and ponderously exerted strength, -- but if ever he met Gama it will be interesting to see how he compared in this respect with his challenger. He will be up against a man who has at least equally as great an appreciation of the value of quickness as himself and possibly greater executant power.

But the strength is in Gama also. One can see it in the fine proportions of his figure, the enormously deep chest, the strong loins, the huge thighs, and the powerful rounded arms… ‘The strength of an ox and the quickness of a cat’ were the words in which one spectator summed up Gama.

He is a worker and he sees to it that his opponent needs to be a worker too unless he is to go down on his shoulders within the first five seconds. There is no letting up, no breathing time, no holding off to gather wind and strength when Gama is wrestling. Move follows move with such tremendous rapidity that it is not entirely easy to distinguish the particular chip which brings about a fall. From grip to grip he changes with the quickness of lightning, arms and legs both at work, the one ready at an instant’s notice to supplement the movement of the other.

Thus it is that one loses sight of the man’s enormous strength.

But his opponent knows it’s there. There is no violent striving for half-nelsons; there are no deliberate movements by which an opponent may be held so that a particular hold may be obtained. An uninitiated person might almost consider that he was witnessing merely a rough-and-tumble, get-hold-anywhere encounter, but it is not so. There is a purpose behind every movement. Both offensively and defensively he knows the value of leg work and in addition he knows a good deal about leg work which the smartest catch-as-catch-can wrestler in this country has never thought of.

And all the while his wrestling is clean. There is no violent exercise of his strength when having forced an adversary into a particular decision which suggests that if the victim does not move something will be broken. There are no strangles, no foot twists, no bridging or head spinning, the latter for the very simple reason that the Indian wrestler has no use at all for ground wrestling. His wrestling is done on his feet. If forced to the ground, or to ease himself he goes down, his object is not to sit there and seek defence, but to get up as quickly as he can and resume the struggle afoot, and the opponent who does try ground wrestling against Gama will very quickly find that he has made an unlucky choice. It is no part of his game to overturn a man who lies on the floor, but he can do it if necessity arise. There was a man in Scotland, and he was four stone [56 pounds] heavier than Gama, who found this out...

& this was from a Western Sports publication, which was most assuredly biased to the American/European fighters. If you look at the opponents that Imam Bux & Gama had to face at the time, such as Stanley Zybszko, George Hackenschmidt, & John Lemm, it is obvious that their primary training was with weights. & yet, while the Indian wrestlers lacked the chisled, "sexy" bodies of their opponents, they still dominated.

This article makes Gama & his compatriots to look much more like masters of real-life combat rather than the MMA-ers of their day. Their goal was to win as quickly as possible, not to entertain, or simply winning by unassailible defense (um, the guard), & they used vyayam calisthenics to acheive those aims...

"He is there on the mat to get his man down on his shoulders... the paramount thought in the Indian’s mind is that the quicker his opponent is defeated the greater is the credit due to himself...
He is not wrestling with one eye on his adversary and one on the spectators. He is not speculating on the effect his wrestling may have on future engagements. At the moment there is only one thing to be done: to put his man down as soon as may be... should it happen that his opponent is clever enough to avoid the first attack he also has to be ready to meet the next, which comes upon him with lightning rapidity."

It seems to me that there are two barriers that the western mind has a problem getting thru.
#1: The typical Westerner has such a programed trust of someone with a title after their name, such as PhD, that they will believe almost anything such people say. Yet they has almost no trust of the average Joe, or the unaverage Joe, that has, thru their own trial & error, founded their own extremely effective methodologies.

a quote from Arthur Jones

Once the scientists began to realize that they could get their greedy hands on more money, in the form of research grants, then the stampede started and thousands of people who previously had no slightest interest in exercise, and less than zero knowledge about it, started trying to get grants of money from anybody that had any and was foolish enough to give some of it to a bunch of outright quacks, supposedly scientific researchers who usually went to great lengths in their attempts to assure the party putting up the money that the results of their research would "prove" whatever it was that the guy supplying the money wanted. The inevitable result being, of course, a literal flood of supposedly scientific papers that fall into an area somewhere between stupid and criminal. Nevertheless, when any such outright !!!!!!!! gets published in a supposedly scientific journal, which it frequently does, it is then accepted as proven fact by almost all scientists and a large number of other idiots.

While even a casual look around makes it obvious that very real improvements have been made in many fields during this century, it does not follow that many, if literally any, of these improvements have resulted from the efforts of scientists; in fact, almost without exception, the greatest improvements in almost all fields have resulted from people like Henry Ford, the Wright Brothers, Einstein, Tesla and a long list of others who not only were not scientists in any sense of the term but generally had little or nothing in the way of a formal education. In the field of exercise physiology, to the best of my knowledge, scientists have contributed literally nothing to our knowledge of the subject apart from dozens of utterly stupid theories and a few worthless and dangerous practices... If you are seriously interested in exercise then forget the scientists, they can tell you nothing of any slightest value. If you ever do manage to learn anything of value about exercise you will do so in the only way possible, by the application of a bit of common sense and from personal experience; learning from trial and error. If it appears to work, do it, but if it fails to produce almost instant results then try something else. Which is exactly how I learned what I know about exercise, none of which I learned from anybody else; what I did learn from other people was that their ideas were utterly stupid.

2#: The average Western body is weak, the average Western mind is even weaker. Overall, we are lazy & instead of working smarter & not harder, we try to get out of any work as often as possible. & when we do work, we waste so much energy in fruitless effort that we soon give up any endevor that truly requires any bit of intestinal fortitude.

The problem with body-weight exercises is that most people believe that they are "boring". They lack that "fire in the belly" or the calmness & stamina of mind to perform them. Unfortunately, they don't see the value for the mind, the oportunity to develop mental endurance & focus that already exists in exercises that move your own body. Most people are so bored or disgusted with their bodies that they abhore the idea of just moving it around for awhile, they would rather go to the gym & pay a fee to play on a machine for awhile.

Also, with the Western desire to always be entertained, we will put a stationary bike in a building & then put a T.V. in front of it, when instead we could just... go ride a bike. What a novel idea.:rolleyes:

Jim_Jude
10th August 2003, 23:46
sorry. dbl pst.