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bruceb
13th July 2003, 19:40
The nature of training in any martial art is that we must practice, practice, practice. Sometimes we practice a movement Ten thousand times before we actually get four or five really good movements that are of worth, or noteworthy.

It would seem that the more we do something, the better we get.

Is it because we make so many mistakes, or the fact that there are no short cuts to training?

I listened to John Stevens sensei, for a couple of classes this week, and his thought was that in our lifetime we might get ten really good throws, or if we were a songwriter we would get ten really good songs, or a writer might get ten really good pieces of work written, etc, etc, etc...

I know I have pretty much ticked off a whole bunch of members on E-Budo who consider this board their personal playground, but aren't all of us seeking to get those ten or so good written pieces in wandering about the forums and threads? That is, is we are not here for our own personal insights, as I thought I was here for up to post 1000, yet some of us are, but we are here to practice in another form other than physical practice. This is our social interaction that also teaches us.

Well, post 1000 came and went for me, and things did change, I changed, and still the world continues to go on. In reflection to the idea of training, and getting five really good throws for a lifetime of training, just how long should it take to get said number of posts that have noteworthy meaning and content?

I don't know.

What I do know is that I will not progress if I don't learn from my mistakes, and part of that process is the ability to take advice, or recognize those errors. Be it redirecting a punch, a kick, or manipulation, or be it studying the cause and effects of my own efforts, sometimes it takes ten thousand throws to begin to understand the true meaning hidden within the practice.

Pardon me for wasting your time with the 9,990 posts that were not so good, or will not be so good, but there are no shortcuts. Although, I begin to think at times, there are some roads with a few less detours, and not so many steep uphill grades.
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Alright.

How many of you have attende seminars with either Master George Dillman, or John Stevens sensei? What did you come away with if you did?

A. M. Jauregui
13th July 2003, 20:38
Looks like you have learned what Judo players (among others) learn in a hurry - when in doubt use your tokui-waza (favorite technique)... With increased practice producing your toku-waza will be superior and occur more frequently.

As for brilliant posts or thread creation by me, not yet. But I really am not looking to do such things there at E-Budo. E-Budo is somewhat like a playground for me as well in that it is fun, there are diverse people in attendance, and if I have a question about the games (martial arts) that we play someone most likely will have an answer.

People say that ignorance is bliss but also say knowledge is power - finding the balance between the two is what you and us all, imho, should be looking for.

Sorry because I regularly do not practice karate or aikido I have not trained with either of the George Dillman or John Stevens.

adroitjimon
16th July 2003, 04:16
out of the ten thousand will the representative one percent
show its self at the approprate time and if so what extent of
life will you have missed in the time that the training took place?

is training caused by fear or is it merely an extension of
insecurity making itself into a reality in our day to day
lives that compells us to train harder ,to defeat ones self
in a sence of self disrespect? but what is respect for oneself
without knowledge of of self disrespect...

acknowledgement of pain is what allows one to discern the
differences of comfort that they as an individual are prepared
to endure so therefor you prepare your whole life to properly
perform an action that you are expected to perform at least once
to perfection for every thousand times performed...

If you are the kind who relentlessly is in persuance of this
level of excellence and endure the hardships accompanied with
such endeavors,I envy you... This life is not mine...

Daishi
16th July 2003, 06:27
What qualifies as a really good throw or technique? If after practicing a technique, say a simple punch, and doing that approx. 5 million times, a good punch should not be a matter of "Oh gee, that was a good punch, I wonder why it worked so well?"

Granted, I've only been doing aiki-jutsu for about 5 years now and my opinions are still forming, but I just can't see the aformentioned comment concerning throws being true. Otherwise how could you justify spending thousands of hours and more blood, sweat and occasional tears training something that might work?

Please elaborate on this if anyone has any other opinions on this.

Dale heisler

A. M. Jauregui
16th July 2003, 07:10
I have been doing the aiki stuff for just a bit longer then you have Dale, not that it makes a difference. In the practice that we go through there is limited free play. So I can see where you are coming from.

I mentioned judo in that they regularly do free play (randori) and more often then not the two that are participating are fair equal in skill (producing and countering techniques). With such equality, producing a technique that *might* work is all they can really hope for. But like I implied focusing on a favorite technique can up the odds of a technique, that might work.

Sorry if I am not being clear, if clarification is needed on this topic just direct a question to me in this thread. :)

meat
16th July 2003, 13:12
Dale, I think what Bruce meant was not so much after 1000 throws you can only pull off 5 or 6 good ones, but perfect ones. Throws where everything happens perfectly. I've recently started archery and I've shot maybe a few hundred arrows. Out of those, quite a few have hit the bullseye, and out of those, maybe 4 or 5 felt as though everything just happened perfectly. Those shots may not have been dead centre, but there was no way I felt I could have possibly improved on them. Hope that analogy helps.

bruceb
16th July 2003, 23:11
Yes, Mr. Ross, archery is a perfect example.

I started shooting arrows with twenty pound bow,(Recurve bows, no sissy sights either.) with my kids, and we started at 60 feet / 20 yards. As soon as we could consistantly hit the target, I moved back to 80 feet, then 100 feet.

So now, at about 35 yards, where we have to use some tragetery, because we are finally outside of the bow's direct shooting range, it is that much harder, but by the same token there is the sense of shooting. For some reason, I found snap shooting to be more accurate than trying to hold the arrow in the draw position, as we are using recurve bows and I won't let them have sights. I believe when they get the feel of the bow and arrow they will sense where the arrow is going, so by instinct they will be able to hit anything.

Now this is an old trick, and not everyone posesses the skill to learn like this, but when you get this inner sense, it is just the same as getting the one in ten thousand throws where everything is the way it is supposed to be, and it feels exactly the way it is supposed to feel.

Eventually, everything you do will be judged by the five or ten best throws, or bullseye, and even though someone observing thinks what you did is perfect, you will know in your own mind if it the best.

When the shot becomes too easy,,, or the technique is too easy, raise the bar, or increase the distance as you would in archery, or the complexity of the technique as you would in practice.

If someone came to my house and hit the bullseye every time. I would push back the distance until we shot equally well, or equally as bad.

When I was seventeen, I played horseshoes with this oldtimer in Maine. He beat me five or six games before I learned how to top his ringers to finally beat him twice in ten games. ( It was not hard ground, but sand, and it sure wasn't the same as hard ground.) We all have the capacity to rise to the occasion or increase the level of difficulty to where we can take note of five really good ones out of ten thousand practice trys

Just don't be put off if I up the ante because you are getting a higher percentage of good throws.

Daishi
17th July 2003, 05:33
Point taken. I was answering a slightly different turn of the comment replacing "perfect completion" with "effective" to a degree.


Dale Heisler

Robert Cheshire
18th July 2003, 04:51
I think I have to agree with Bruce and his concepts related to how he shoots the bow & arrow.

The sights become a confidence trick of sorts. Traditional Kyudo and even some more modern forms (such as the Bajutsu of Yoseikan Budo) want you to "feel" the point at which you release the arrow. As Bruce mentioned, you develop an instinct for where your target is and when to execute your shot, throw, etc.

bruceb
19th July 2003, 18:25
In a way, it works for anything you might throw, shoot, or force a projectile to be thrown if you don't have time to take aim ... which is, to me, the same feeling for adapt change and overcome when a technique goes to hell in a handbasket.

It might be equated with shooting from a running horse, or simple shooting while running, because within the aim there is a dependence upon feeling in your gut that everything is as good as it can be for the circumstances, so you take your chances to let loose your technique, or projectile, and figure it is somewhere in the bullseye.

I was just glancing through "Budo Secrets" by John Stevens, and there is one story where a student asked Ueshiba sensei how long it will take to master a technique. Ueshiba sensei answers that if the student is diligent and works hard it will take about ten years. The student then vows to double his efforts to shorten the time it will take to master the technique, and asks Ueshiba sensei how long it will take now. To which he answers, it will now take thirty years for you to master this technique.

The lesson of the story being ... it was not just the physical practice, but the manner in which the mind and body learned the practice that was important. Practicing alone, with improper mindset, and with the covetous spirit to gain the technique, the student would lose the connection of inner spirit needed to fully attain the knowlege needed to let the technique come to him freely and not be owned or mastered as a slave being instructed.
The spirit of the technique must come be freely given, and freely used with no attachment.

Too deep, eh? Oh well.

It has to do with the emotional triangle and using the forces available to their full potential ... which is another subject.

I guess you have to do ten thousand throws, without thinking about it, or paying attention to reaching that number, to really get a grasp upon the situation.

No big deal .... after a dozen years of listening to what everyone thinks about how long it takes to master a system, I don't think any system can ever be mastered, but you sure can look good if you just keep practicing .....