Shimewaza: purpose and causation

[MarkF]

Comments? What I mean is this: I was taught early on the purpose of shimewaza was to cause unconciousness by cutting or depriving the brain of oxygen through the interruption of oxygen-containing arteries, EG, the carotids, jugular, and carotid sinus. The purpose here is to cause a person to passout, but painlessly and quickly.

Any comments now?:D

[Ben_Holmes]

Hmmm... I feel like I'm being suckered here, but I'll bite. Judo has TWO categories of chokes... one attacks the blood vessels to the brain, depriving the brain of oxygen, and the other category is 'air'. Air chokes are pretty much limited to two chokes (IMO), Hadakajime definitely, and Tsukikomijime in many cases.

Hadakajime CAN be done as a 'blood' choke, but it is *primarily* an 'air' choke. Interestingly enough, Kashiwazaki makes the point that in typical use, the air isn't really cut off, submission is due to the pain of the choke, not the lack of air.

Since I've just finished a several weeks worth of discussion on this subject, I'm *ready* for the flames... I even have all my references still sitting next to the computer... anyone?

[MarkF]

Hi Ben,
Actually, you emailed me the "discussion" on that other list, and I thought of bringing it up here. Actually, I had thought that was the reason, and I was planning to use one of the pics, or two to make a case.

Thanks for the scans and you did make an excellent argument even though some will even say the founder and his best students are wrong, but go ahead and post them, if you like.

Regards,
Mark

[efb8th]

Hi, Guys.

I see you are at it again. I don't have a stack of books ready, but in twenty years of competition, I never used an air choke (unless you want to include kami shiho gatame in that category), and of all my ippons, fully 50% were by shime waza. I would argue that maximum efficiency demands blood chokes over so-called "air chokes," which (as Ben pointed out) are, in most cases, thinly disguised atemi.

Regards,

[Ben_Holmes]

Interestingly enough, Kashiwazaki points out that jujutsu ryus regarded the smothering of the face to be just as much a shimewaza as is an attack on the neck. But Judo doesn't recognise the smothering of the face, even though it happens in Kamishihogatame.

As for competition, Hadakajime is NOT an often used technique, simply due to the difficulty of *getting* it. It's much easier to get Okurierijime, in my experience. But I'll point out, that when Hadakajime is correctly placed, it uses as much or LESS strength than Okurierijime, so I don't have a great deal of belief in the maximum efficiency argument - although I acknowledge it...

As to the "thinly disguised atemi"... it's legal. Always has been. There's nothing 'shady' about it.

As I mentioned in an earlier discussion on the topic over on RMA, I suspect that the rare use of this is a result of instructors deciding not to *teach* Hadakajime as an 'air' choke (or, at all), to beginners... and long before a Judoka ever gets instruction on the fine points of Hadaka, they've long since learned *easier* chokes. That's my take on it, anyway...

[efb8th]

I'd like to respond on a couple of levels Ben. First, I don't like to fight. And I find that if I try for Okuri Eri Jime, I'm in a fight. But I have found that if I have the left hand positioned for Okuri Eri, all I have to do is wait, and when uke's right comes up to stop my Oukri, Kataha Jime is automatic and very, very quick.

Second, I don't use any of the Hadaka Jimes as an air choke. My hand in hand version from behind attacks both carotid sinuses; so does my hand in elbow-crook (figure-four) from behind. The front Hadaka Jime (radial bone edge against the throat) would be air, but uke always turns one way or another, which makes it a neck crank. The hadaka taken front with uke's head up (tori's right shoulder under uke's right ear; left hand grasps right hand above his left shoulder) is also all blood. I guess my Sensei's aversion to hurting people ("You don't have to hurt people to beat them, Ed."--Ben Patterson) was so ingrained in me that I just WOULD NOT attack the windpipe under any competition circumstances. Throat attacks were classed right up with eyes and groin as self defense only targets.

Sorry if you sensed implications of shady practices in "thinly disguised" none were intended. I just meant blatent, not "cheating" or anything else negative. I don't doubt that crushing the larynx with a radius bone is legal in Judo. I just can't figure out why it's legal.

By the same token, I am not saying that blood chokes are not nerve chokes. Of course they are, but there is much less danger of having to perform a tracheotomy to reverse the effects of a blood choke; a little simple massage will usually do the trick.

[MarkF]

I have always tried to avoid the groundwork, at least after the junior years as most opponents were much larger than myself. I also had thought that since being taught to mainly cut the carotids in most chokes, hadakajime not being taught as one useful in shiai, and when done in a learning environment in which uke allows position first, it is not painful, as tapping out always came as I saw stars.

In the twenty odd years of competing (most within ten years, but I tried well passed my peak), I had never been choked out, or never had a successful choke ever been applied...until the last match of my last tournament. I cannot remember the particular choke, but I do remember that my dogi had been pulled across my larynx/trachea, so when the shimban approached to take a look, I thought he was going to break it. My "bad.":( He leaned in and said, after I tried to take a breathe which sounded like trying to start an old lawnmower, "That's enough." I still thought he was breaking the waza, but he meant I had had enough.

So, blood chokes are what I consider ideal, and in intrasqaud shiai in the dojo, I do not allow "air" chokes, but they, none the less, had never been outside the rules.

Ben, I particularly liked the one picture of the "Admiral," Mifune Kyuzo S. doing that choke, particularly because of his positioning. Applying hadakajime to a seated uke while standing is, well, unique, at least to me. Do you want to post it? Or Ed, if you got 'em, post 'em.:smilejapa

Mark

[MarkF]

After looking in KJ, I am sure he was appling okure eri jime on me, as I was defending (attempting, anyway) against the choke.

Ed,
There many inconcistencies in what is allowed and what can be injury-causing. Possibly the reason for hadakajime being fairly unusual in shiai, is for the reasons you stated. I was taught the same way, but also found out the hard way that what is wrong, and what is legal, can be two different animals.

Mark

[efb8th]

Sorry, Mark.

No scanner!

It's up to you, Ben.

[Ben_Holmes]

These were all scanned in and are for a short time, sitting on my ISP's space... Without naming names, there is an individual on RMA who believes that ALL of these photos demonstrate Hadakajime done as a 'blood' choke. Formal Judo by Otaki and Draeger do describe it as a blood choke, although their sentence, "Do not merely crush his Adam's apple." might be taken to mean sort of a 'combination' of 'air' and 'blood' (as some books, such as Dynamic Judo, mention). Many references distinctly mention the pressure against the trachea and/or windpipe, others only mention pressure against the 'throat'. Just cut & paste, or click on any links of interest...


Kodokan Judo
http://www.rain.org/~bnholmes/hadakajime.jpg

Canon of Judo
http://www.rain.org/~bnholmes/hadakajime2.jpg

Dynamic Judo
http://www.rain.org/~bnholmes/hadakajime3.jpg

Formal Techniques
http://www.rain.org/~bnholmes/hadakajime4.jpg

Kawaishi & Welch
http://www.rain.org/~bnholmes/hadakajime5.jpg

Closeup of above
http://www.rain.org/~bnholmes/hadakajime6.jpg

Cont. of above
http://www.rain.org/~bnholmes/hadakajime7.jpg

[Jeff Cook]

"But Judo doesn't recognise the smothering of the face, even though it happens in Kamishihogatame."

Judo rules also do not recognize shoulder locks, although that's what happens in ude garami (for some reason it is still classified as an elbow lock).

Funny how that is, eh?

Hadaka jime is definitely difficult to apply legally from the back-mount position under judo rules, but under BJJ rules it is actually one of the most prevalent chokes in competition. Why? Because a forearm across the face is illegal under judo rules, which is where the arm comes to rest when it is blocked from the choke. In BJJ, however, the cross-face and jaw crank are legal, and when you are having your jaw cranked, the only relief you get from the intense pain is from either lifting your chin (which gives your opponent access to your throat) or tapping out, both losing proposition.

BTW, I have successfully utilized a front naked strangle (guillotine) in judo competition, against judoka with extensive wrestling experience that love the one- or two-legged takedown.

Don't know if that was relevant to this topic, but thought I would share it anyway.:)

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[MarkF]

http://www.rain.org/~bnholmes/hadakajime2.jpg

This is the one which sealed it for me as to what the intent of the choke was.

Mark