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elder999
17th July 2003, 19:12
Nearly two years ago,now, Dan Rather had to choke back tears on national television when he talked about September 11. The veteran anchor wore a flag lapel pin during his nightly newscasts, and when it came to endorsing military strikes in Afghanistan, he said he’d be willing to serve on the front lines-“name the time and place.” This was one American whose patriotism was unquestioned, until he began to question it himself.

In a recent BBC interview, Rather said that patriotic fervor has “run amok” in America, squelching dissent and discouraging journalists from asking tough questions of government. He went so far a s to compare the climate of self-censorship to that in South Africa, when flaming tires were sill hung around the necks of dissidents. “ In some ways, the fear is that you will be necklaced here,” Rather said. “You will have the flaming tire of lack of patriotism put around your neck.”

Who is a patriot? What does patriotism demand of us? Is love of and allegiance to a country a healthy emotion or a “flaming tire” around our necks? These questions are as old as the nation, but they are resurfacing with new urgency.

At its best, patriotism is the force that stirred America to defeat fascism. It has inspired Americans to serve in the military, in government, and in their communities. It is a common sentiment, that in America, ties together races, religions and ethnicities. Patriotism has a dark side, too. National pride can lead to jingoism. National unity can yield to oppression of dissenting views. In World War I, a network of vigilantes enforced national loyalty, dragging suspected dissidents from their homes and forcing them to take loyalty oaths and kiss flags to prove their allegiance.

Timothy McVeigh called himself a patriot.

Once, patriotism was measured simply by one’s willingness to die for one’s country. In America, after the Emancipation Proclamation, patriotism suddenly meant living up to the ideals in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. In fact, historians and social critics say those documents are the cornerstones of modern patriotism, and I agree. If you don’t know and appreciate those documents, you don’t know what it means to be American. Freedom and human rights are, for most of us, the real source of national pride. It is because of those ideas that many believe, as Lincoln wrote, that America is still“the last best hope for earth.”

Adlai Stevenson called patriotism a “national responsibility” that consists not of “short frenzied outbursts of emotion, but the tranquil and steady dedication of a lifetime.” British philosopher Bertrand Russell defined it as “the willingness to kill and be killed for trivial reasons.”

What does patriotism mean to you?

elder999
17th July 2003, 20:23
Originally posted by elder999
What does patriotism mean to you?

This wasn't a rhetorical question. C'mon people;I really wanna know what some of you think...

Shitoryu Dude
17th July 2003, 22:06
It means believing in the ideals of the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, the Declaration of Independence and the Federalist Papers.

It does not mean selling out the country to a pack of hyper-liberals who think the government needs to take care of everyone/everything and only certain people with the correct political views can be trusted to think properly. I do think that extreme liberalism is a sign of someone who not only is not patriotic, but actually hates and despises the country and what it stands for. They do not understand what it is to be American.

:beer:

A. M. Jauregui
17th July 2003, 22:15
A willingness to sacrifice my will, owing to devotion, so that the country that I live in will be served and its welfare protected.

Soulend
17th July 2003, 22:19
Far greater men have said it far better, but I feel that patriotism is a support for the promise and potential that a country holds, and an abiding belief in the basic goodness of it's people. In this country, as Aaron previously mentioned, this is also founded upon an unwavering belief in the wisdom of the Constitution.

It is not a blind, lockstep support of a country's actions, policy, or leaders, nor can it ever overshadow one's personal ethics or morals (whether they be self-imposed or the result of theistic beliefs). It is, ironically, a willingness to acknowledge your country's wrongs and yet not dwell on them - but rather to forge ahead with a better course to eliminate the mistakes of the past, and seek to minimize new ones.

It is not characterized by a 'Hulk Smash!' mentality, or the temporary flying of flags when it becomes fashionable to do so, but a steady, lifelong, and unshakable determination founded upon the ability to discern right from wrong and a belief that we can always do better - and that we are equal to that task.

I apologize for the ramble, my ability to put ideas into words is poor sometimes.

avehnor
18th July 2003, 00:13
What does patriotism mean?

patriotism

\Pa"tri*ot*ism\, n. [Cf. F. patriotisme.] Love of country; devotion to the welfare of one's country; the virtues and actions of a patriot; the passion which inspires one to serve one's country. --Berkley.



So, what does it mean to me? Gosh... to kinda repeat what others have repeated... it's not just an act, but also a belief in being proud and loving one's country. It means that I would be willing to sacrifice my life, if need be, to protect my country. If some secret service person came up to me and told me that in order for the US to survive as a country, I would have to die, I would. For the greater good, I would.

It also means that I wouldn't sell my countries secrets or do anything that jeapordises its overall safety.

It means, that when a catastrophe happens, like 9/11, I do whatever I can to help out... be it donating what money I can part with, or sending clothing/care packages/food across the States. 9/11 opened up a lot of eyes and minds, including mine. I won't take things for granted again. Life is too short and precious and anything could happen at any time. Life live like each day was your last.

My answers are a tad naive and not as complex or thorough as others... but then that's just me... and it is a rhetorical question and there are going to be many variations of answers.

william northcote
18th July 2003, 00:23
Patriotism is to defend your home, family, friends, neighbours from persicution. It is to defend not your flag, but the soil under your feet, the air your breathe, the ability to think.

It is not going off to spill your blood on another countries soil. You have to defend what you think is right, not what the leaders say.

If I was drafted, I would not go abroad to fight. The Army is a defense for the country. I will not spill my blood on another country. My country is to whom I am loyal. If the government says fight, I will question it. If the Queen says fight, I will, as Her Royal Highness is Boss of the military.

I will fight for my bit of soil filled with worms and strange white roots, but not for the ideal of government.

adroitjimon
18th July 2003, 02:14
The first time I ever had a"Patriotic moment" was when they
(the Air Force Honor Guard) played taps at my Grandfather's
Funeral...
I was in the Navy in the early nineties and surprisingly enough
that was the first real connection I ever experienced with my
grand father and Ironically Patriotism...:cry:

william northcote
18th July 2003, 08:35
Originally posted by adroitjimon
The first time I ever had a"Patriotic moment" was when they
(the Air Force Honor Guard) played taps at my Grandfather's
Funeral...
I was in the Navy in the early nineties and surprisingly enough
that was the first real connection I ever experienced with my
grand father and Ironically Patriotism...:cry:

So may I ask a question...

Woiuld you consider patriotism a feeling or an action?

KhawMengLee
18th July 2003, 12:23
Hmmnnn....Patriotism is the love of one's nation. It is the gratitude for what this nation has made you. By the word Nation we are not limited to people, ideals, etc but to the land itself.

A Patriot, in my book, not only defends but works to better the things he/she loves.

glad2bhere
18th July 2003, 14:29
Gotta a bit of a problem here.

Seems like you are asking for an intellectual assessment of what is predominantly an emotional response. In this way its pretty hard to define "patriotism" as everyones' definition will be closely tied with what they feel rather than what they think and as we all know thinking and feeling may be related but not necessarily causal to each other. Thats why the Michigan Militia, McVey, George Lincoln Rockwell, Harry Truman, and Bejamin Franklin can all make arguements for patiotism and still disagree with each other about how it is to be expressed.

I am from an older generation of posters here so I can speak with some authority about how the term was used by various sides during the Vietnam War. People who went to fight were "patriots" while people who stayed home also considered themselves "patriots". Both groups were supporting their nation as they thought best. And I am sure that the current White House resident and his cronies all see themselves as patriots as do the folks who are challenging his policies. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

elder999
18th July 2003, 14:31
Originally posted by glad2bhere
Gotta a bit of a problem here.

Seems like you are asking for an intellectual assessment of what is predominantly an emotional response. In this way its pretty hard to define "patriotism" as everyones' definition will be closely tied with what they feel rather than what they think and as we all know thinking and feeling may be related but not necessarily causal to each other. Thats why the Michigan Militia, McVey, George Lincoln Rockwell, Harry Truman, and Bejamin Franklin can all make arguements for patiotism and still disagree with each other about how it is to be expressed.

I am from an older generation of posters here so I can speak with some authority about how the term was used by various sides during the Vietnam War. People who went to fight were "patriots" while people who stayed home also considered themselves "patriots". Both groups were supporting their nation as they thought best. And I am sure that the current White House resident and his cronies all see themselves as patriots as do the folks who are challenging his policies. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

WHAT IS "PATRIOTISM" TO YOU?

Ben Bartlett
18th July 2003, 14:45
Patriotism is still loving your country after having to listen, yet again, to a conservative tell you that because you are a liberal, you obviously must hate it. ;)

Bushi Jon
18th July 2003, 14:45
I once told my children A patriot is a person willing to voice their own beliefs to protect the contsition of the United States Of America

glad2bhere
18th July 2003, 15:03
Dear Aaron:

I work not to categorize various responses with judgemental headings.

My intention is to work to consistently come out of the best part of myself as I labor to invite others out of the best part of themselves. My purpose is to polish myself to the point that I can express myself in this way independent of circumstances or the actions and emotions of others. My hope is that if by making this effort my community and my country improve a little for everyone involved. If you elect to label this "patiotism" then, I guess, I'm a patriot. I also suspect that anyone reading this could likewise call me a good _______ (fill-in the blank). Hope this helps.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

adroitjimon
20th July 2003, 06:38
Patriotism is an understanding that you as an individaul are
representative of the whole and that in part distinguishes you
as well as those you represent apart from those not within the
representation of the unified whole...ie; Iam therefor I am

Vapour
20th July 2003, 07:29
According to Ann Cutler

Republican/Conservative = Patriot (McCarthy included)
Democrat/Liberal = Traitors

Well, that make it very simple, doesn't it.

The initial post seems to be baiting on the line of liberal=anti-war=traitor logic. I personally don't think majority of sensitive conservative are articulate enough not to fall on this line of thinking so I think the thread is slitly moot. However, I have seen lot of idiots recently.

william northcote
20th July 2003, 13:25
Originally posted by Vapour
According to Ann Cutler

Republican/Conservative = Patriot (McCarthy included)
Democrat/Liberal = Traitors

Well, that make it very simple, doesn't it.

The initial post seems to be baiting on the line of liberal=anti-war=traitor logic. I personally don't think majority of sensitive conservative are articulate enough not to fall on this line of thinking so I think the thread is slitly moot. However, I have seen lot of idiots recently.

So are the KKK and the British BNP, which have right wing views, who claim to be patriots of their country a conservative?

Ben Bartlett
20th July 2003, 13:39
Well, I don't know anything about the British BNP, but yes, members of the KKK are conservatives. But most conservatives aren't members of the KKK.

Vapour
20th July 2003, 15:03
Nor people who are against war or speak out against government policy.

Interesting fact about Vietnam war is that poll after poll indicated that majority of American were behind Vietnam war, almost right to the very end where it became too obvious that war is a lost cause. And many regarded those anti-war demonstrators to be idiot/traitor/misguided youth. With hindsight, we know america's interest were served if they pull out earlier or didn't go into war at all in the first place.

This doesn't mean that from 10 years from now, people consider Gulf War II to be big mistake. To be honest, I think it will go in line of "American was right to go into war but with wrong reason". But that doesn't mean people who speak out against war are traitors.

william northcote
20th July 2003, 18:09
Originally posted by Ben Bartlett
Well, I don't know anything about the British BNP, but yes, members of the KKK are conservatives. But most conservatives aren't members of the KKK.

The BNP (British Nationalist Party) are the equvilent of the neo-nazis. They split from the National Front in the early 1980's and formed the BNP. Another split saw the group C18 (Combat 18, 18=AH, Adolf Hitler) they have also formed ties with the KKK from the USA as well as support paramilitary forces in Northern Ireland.

glad2bhere
20th July 2003, 20:39
Dear Vapour:

".....Interesting fact about Vietnam war is that poll after poll indicated that majority of American were behind Vietnam war, almost right to the very end where it became too obvious that war is a lost cause. And many regarded those anti-war demonstrators to be idiot/traitor/misguided youth. With hindsight, we know america's interest were served if they pull out earlier or didn't go into war at all in the first place......"

Almost three decades after the fact and we are still not sure where that war came form, what kept it going and what brought it to an end.

We get tantalizing little tidbits such as the circumstances following the Kennedy assasination as well as the Nixon resignation and so forth. There are a lot of suggestions of military-industrial complex and New World Order. But in the end nobody really seems to know where that Vietnam experience-- of its particular nature--- developed from.

I don't know about the rightness and wrongness of the Gulf War, or the Afghan War or all the covert stuff that went on during the Cold War and afterwards. What I do know is that the wealthy and the powerful make policy independent of the system which supposedly guides this country and there is very, very little that the average person can do about it. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

A. M. Jauregui
21st July 2003, 05:58
I was chatting with my old undergraduate roommate about American patriotism... I think that the quote (see below) was quite interesting...

Being American is not a matter of birth. We must practice it every day, lest we become something else.
-Malcolm Wallop

adroitjimon
22nd July 2003, 05:42
America is like a football team ...
If we are winning every one cheers and if we are losing
you can feel it in the atmosphere as if it were the summer heat

william northcote
22nd July 2003, 11:16
Originally posted by adroitjimon
America is like a football team ...
If we are winning every one cheers and if we are losing
you can feel it in the atmosphere as if it were the summer heat

And how deas America feel at this moment in time?

Rogier
22nd July 2003, 11:24
patriotism... doesn't ring a bell or gives me any feeling whatsoever

I can't really think of a good reason why I (for example) should die for my "country" or something like that. What exactly defines what a country is? A few lines an a map? The people living there and their culture?

Do I cheer when the Dutch soccer team scores... yes... do I cheer when another country makes a great goal... yes why not..

Is patriotism actually a good thing? In my opinion it is one of the things that divides humanity..

elder999
22nd July 2003, 20:58
Originally posted by Rogier
patriotism... doesn't ring a bell or gives me any feeling whatsoever

I can't really think of a good reason why I (for example) should die for my "country" or something like that. What exactly defines what a country is? A few lines an a map? The people living there and their culture?

Do I cheer when the Dutch soccer team scores... yes... do I cheer when another country makes a great goal... yes why not..

Is patriotism actually a good thing? In my opinion it is one of the things that divides humanity..

Well, what would you die for, Rogier?

Look over the things I originally posted about what I think patriotism means-for Americans, at any rate. I think those rights were worth dying for-I think the documents that form the basis of our republic-no matter how they've been debased and skirted-are worthy of all the esteem and pride we can muster, and I've posted before that those documents affirm those rights not just for Americans, but for everyone-the Founders believed them to be "God given" or "natural" rights, that predated the laws of men, and formed a government that -from the onset, at any rate-was restricted completely from limiting or curtailing those rights.

Rights that don't divide humanity, but should unite all humanity, and not just Americans.

Patriotism for me isn't about flag waving or cheering for a national team. It's about what we're supposed to stand for, though, I'll be the first to admit that we often do not.

PeterNicholson
24th July 2003, 12:49
What is patriotism?

The last refuge of a scoundrel...

(Sorry, can't remember who said it - anyone know? )

[Cynic Mode OFF]

A. M. Jauregui
24th July 2003, 12:54
Samuel Johnson on April 7, 1775.

Edit: Reminds me of a Simpsons episode were Lisa says, “Prayer, the last refuge of a scoundrel,” for Bart is praying for a miracle so he does not have to take a history test that will determine wether he has enough points to past the 4th grade. (It snows the next day...)

Rogier
24th July 2003, 13:09
Originally posted by elder999


Well, what would you die for, Rogier?



the only thing I can imagine I would be prepared to die for is my direct family and my girlfriend/fiancee/wife to be..(in August 2004)

Most people I know think that the "American patriotism" (at least what they've seen of it) is quite extreme compared to people in other countries..

william northcote
24th July 2003, 17:41
Originally posted by Rogier


the only thing I can imagine I would be prepared to die for is my direct family and my girlfriend/fiancee/wife to be..(in August 2004)

Most people I know think that the "American patriotism" (at least what they've seen of it) is quite extreme compared to people in other countries..

American patriotism maybe extreme, but never truly fanatical. Even though there are some people that have taken it way too far I.E. McVeigh, Britian and most of Europe see patriotism as a word, or just have a feeling pride of belonging to a country.

elder999
24th July 2003, 17:48
Originally posted by Rogier


the only thing I can imagine I would be prepared to die for is my direct family and my girlfriend/fiancee/wife to be..(in August 2004)

Most people I know think that the "American patriotism" (at least what they've seen of it) is quite extreme compared to people in other countries..

I grew up two doors down from some patriotic Americans.

Their son was-is my best friend.

During WWII, as teenagers, they were resitance fighters-in Holland.

Mrs. Van den Berg has a charm bracelet with coins; one of the coins has a bullet hole in it!:eek:

This isn't the only thing that make them great Americans, and patriots, but one of the things that does is that they were Dutch patriots-and good citizens.

One of the things that most real Americans take pride in is that, well, there aren't many "real" Americans. We almost all come from other places, in one way or another,and all come from a variety of different cultures.Still do-you could start becoming "American" tomorrow, if you wanted.