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Nathan Scott
17th July 2003, 20:17
You can't swing a dead cat without hitting a new AJJ group. This one is in Ontario, Canada, and is part of a whole network of AJJ styles.

http://www.geocities.com/aikiju-jitsu/Images/Events5.jpg

The head of Juco dojo, Karen Luttrell apparently trained under "Shihan" Robert Steen, Sandan and President of Aikiju-jitsu Canada. Of course they claim lineage to Daito ryu, even though their curriculum uses quite a bit of Karate terminology and techniques. She appears to have a shodan in AJJ under Steen, and also has experience in "Formokan Judo" from early in here career.

Here is an event we've already missed out on:


This year, participants included Aiki Ryu Jujutsu students from Musubi Dojo (Courtice) and Aiki Jujitsu students from Jucu Dojo (Toronto) as well as Chokushin and Shorinji Kan Aiki Jujutsu stylists from Waterloo and Peterborough.

Participants practiced techniques from Aiki Jujitsu and Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu including basic concepts in defending against knife and gun attacks from the front and rear as well as knife against knife defences.

Where did all these aikijujutsu styles come from?

http://www.geocities.com/aikiju-jitsu/Images/Camp994.jpg

I wonder if they take long distance students?

kenkyusha
17th July 2003, 20:53
The page seems to have been removed... the power of E-budo strikes again :).

Be well,
Jigme

Nathan Scott
17th July 2003, 21:26
I think it was a link problem.

BTW, I forgot to post the webpage link (geocities pop-up fiesta):

http://www.geocities.com/aikiju-jitsu/

MarkF
18th July 2003, 01:55
This is interesting:

Please Note:
Jucu Dojo is not currently holding classes. For more information about future plans for the dojo and Aiki Jujitsu classes, please contact Sensei Karen Luttrell at 416-576-3737 or by email.

aikiju-jitsu@yahoo.com <aikiju-jitsu@yahoo.com>


Mark

A. M. Jauregui
18th July 2003, 05:52
From http://www.geocities.com/aikiju-jitsu/Who.html
Aiki Jujitsu, a traditional Japanese martial art, is the forefather of modern Aiki styles and martial arts such as Aikido, Judo and Hapkido.

Forefather of Aikdio - sure.
Forefather of Hapkido - maybe...
Forefather of Judo - news to me???

Mark. do you know of any ancestral connection between aikijujutsu and judo other then possibly Shiro Saigo? *Hmmm*

Elliot Harris
18th July 2003, 17:12
Ana,

This may digress from the topic a bit, but...

Maybe Mark knows of some other connection, but as far as I know Diato Ryu has had NO influence on the development of Judo. Shiro Saigo, at best had minimal instruction in some of what became Diato Ryu teachings depending on who you ask, but most historians agree that his training was primarily completed at the Kodokan (some good links at EJMAS and judoinfo.com on this).

Now aiki - while almost no one in judo today talks about aiki in Judo, the Kito Ryu (one of the two main schools from which judo techniques were drawn) was widely known as having strong throwing skills and being an aiki based system. Of course that in no way defines how they understood aiki or incorporated this understanding into their curriculum; and in that vacum of knowledge we cannot say how similar or different this understanding was from Diato ryu, or how it influenced Kano in developing Kodokan Judo. Maybe someone here has more info on this.

A. M. Jauregui
18th July 2003, 23:21
Thank you for the reply Elliot. I found information about Shiro Saigo from an article at bestjudo.com - absolutely as you stated, most agree that there is no real connection. But I was still intrigued by the forefather statement that the web site in question put forth.

I have felt judo practitioners produce *what I consider* aiki... I did not mean to imply that Daito-ryu has cornered the market on such a principle.

MarkF
19th July 2003, 00:46
Saigo Shiro was in his early teens when he went to the Kodokan so, at best, he may have learned some etiquette of DR, and not much else. You will, however, get an argument on that from some. Most notably, Steven Cunningham, of the Judo-L email list makes that claim, particularly concerning the famous Tokyo Police department Shiai of the middles 1880s, but the throw used was one still in the syllabus of Kodokan Judo and proof goes wanting as Yama Arashi being anything but a Kodokan throw. Certainly, there is aiki in Kodokan judo, but is not taught as a system, IE, aiki no jutsu.

He (Saigo) left the Kodokan fairly early on, as well, and went on to study swimming, and kyudo, and I've heard he became a teacher of kyudo. His life was portrayed in the novel Sugata Sanshiro which was made into a movie in 1943, and a remake with Toshiro Mifune in 1965 playing Mr. 'Yano.' When English subtitles were added and released in the US, it went by the name "Judo Saga."
The 1965 film was by far the better of the two as the censoring of the original was heavy (war time censors can be brutal). Still, it was Akira Kurosawa's first film and is worth seeing. It is generally available through Tower Records and other outlets while the 1965 version cannot be found (I was lucky enough to see it in J-town of Los Angeles when it was released in 1965 but I've failed to locate that version today).

I doubt DR had any connection in the development of judo, though Tokimune Takeda claimed his father and Kano were good friends. I'm sure that is true, but as they both travelled so much, I doubt it was anymore than mutual admiration. Still, there are times when everything comes together and aiki is about as good a term for that as any, perhaps better than most.

Saigo Shiro's old uwagi is hanging in the museum of judo at the Kodokan Judo Institute, to give an idea of how important his role in the success of Kodokan Judo.

IOW, you're correct.;)


Mark

Elliot Harris
19th July 2003, 04:11
Actually, I believe Kano had mixed experiences with regard to how the term "aiki" was used in his training experience. As I understand it, he tried hard not to explain how things worked in pseudo-mysteriomystical terms like "aiki," as he felt it was often used as an excuse for poor instruction; but as a serious scholar enamored with the West and things like the scientific process, he chose to break down those elements of technique that seemed mysterious, or were otherwise kept secret in some schools - at least until senior levels, and define and teach technique in accordance with this model and principles. However, as we all know, man is more than the sum of his parts and the martial arts, properly studied, can give us an insight into deeper aspects of our lives - aiki being very much a part of this, whatever you want to call it. Many older books and references to judo often have at least a cursory mention of aiki (as understood in the traditional aikido fashion of a dominant/harmonic blending of intrinsic energies; or alternately of an overwhelming spiritual presence [sometimes kiai is used for this] - both often with a spiritual connotation) but regretably little else that I know of.

When I was much younger, I asked my sensei about aiki in judo (a very senior judoka) and he told me that some of the old guys at the kodokan talk about it, but that for me - like everything else in judo - practice, practice, practice and my aiki will take care of itself....one of these days:look:

Don Cunningham
19th July 2003, 15:06
Saigo Shiro's old uwagi is hanging in the museum of judo at the Kodokan Judo Institute, to give an idea of how important his role in the success of Kodokan Judo.
I've seen the uwagi worn by Jigoro Kano hanging in the museum, but I didn't see any others. Where is Shiro's uwagi exhibited?

wagnerphysed
20th July 2003, 19:24
This website is rediculous. I don't think that there would be any question regarding this site had the school name had something to do with Karate or Kempo (or even Kenpo). However, Daito-ryu it clearly is not.

I would like to point out that despite the wealth of information available on Daito-ryu and beginning level techniques and principles, the creators of this Daito-ryu cult have failed to take advantage of this information. The availability of this information and how frauds may attempt to use it to maintain their fantasy sparked a big discussion earlier in this BB. ;)

The fact is, these Daito-ryu schools and cults materializing are beginning to bore me. At one time you could count on these groups to do their homework and present websites that took some investigation to show their fraudulent claims. Now days, these groups give themselves away at the drop of a hat. They can't even be bothered to investigate real Daito-ryu organizations and structures to pass themselves off as legitimate. They cut and paste DR history and add their bogus curriculum and presto...They are Daito-ryu. Where is the challenge in debunking that? :mad:

I tried to remain silent. However, this site and their information/claims are just to rediculous. I could not even find lineage showing how this group is tied to DR.

p.s. I like the idea of aiki being scientifically verifiable and non-metaphysical. IMO, aiki = (biomechanics + physics) x application. Aiki does not = religous BS. Sorry, just had to add my two cents.

A. M. Jauregui
21st July 2003, 01:59
Well said Brain...

aiki = (biomechanics + physics) x application iff receptiveness is present. imho.

[“iff“ = if and only if]

wagnerphysed
21st July 2003, 15:38
That seems like a good addition to the equation. Each element seems to build on another. Although intelectualizing a technique or principle is no good void of actually practicing a technique, I think the converse is true as well. So, I think another aspect would be a cognitive understanding of aiki. I think looking at aiki as some sort of mystical anomoly prevents this understanding (or gets in the way of it) from taking place (or it is a sign that the person portraying it as a mystical force has no real understanding of aiki?).
Thanks for the valuable input.