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Mekugi
19th July 2003, 03:03
I have been saying this for FREAKING YEARS...each time I was told that "your culture is different, you're un-accepting of other's culture, you are Ethnocentric." Well, here come da Judge...


New alerts issued on child predators

The Asahi Shimbun



Police were set to go public in their hunt for 4 girls lured from Shibuya.

Police were about to go public with their search for four missing elementary school girls Thursday when they were found after four days in handcuffs in a Tokyo apartment, sources said on Friday.

Police had prepared fliers Wednesday night bearing photos of the missing girls, two aged 11 and two 12 years old. They were held since Sunday in a room of an Akasaka apartment under short-term lease to Kotaro Yoshisato, 29. He was found dead, an apparent suicide, in another room.

Parents of the missing girls appealed to police to look for them after the students did not come home Sunday night. Classmates and their parents told police one of the missing girls had invited friends to go with her to Shibuya, where she knew a place they could ``make money for part-time work.''

Government officials and teachers were quick to warn young people and their parents about the risk of falling prey to such shady propositions, especially since most schools began summer break Friday.

Yoshisato was already wanted by a section of the Metropolitan Police Department that deals with juveniles. He was suspected of using several high school girls as decoys to solicit other students with offers of ``good-paying, part-time jobs.''

A warrant was issued for Yoshisato's arrest on Wednesday in another case involving an underage girl.

And police had a copy of a leaflet offering part-time jobs to young girls and listing Yoshisato's cellphone number.

But their search for Yoshisato was frustrated because he had not visited any of the places they thought he was likely to visit.

Yoshisato lured the girls to Shibuya, with its fast-food, game centers and trendy fashion shops.

The bustling area near the JR Shibuya Station is noted for, among other things, young touts in suits who try to lure young women into sex-related work or roles in sex videos.

``I sometimes struck up conversations with women I thought were of age, but they turned out to be junior high students,'' recalled one man in his 30s who once scouted girls for the shady trade. ``I didn't introduce them to any of those jobs, but a small video-production company might give them a role, because young faces are always in demand.''

On Thursday, a group of four junior high school students from Yokohama said they had been approached with offers to be ``models'' a few times as they strolled Shibuya's busy shopping streets. ``It's a little scary, but a foursome is reassuring,'' one girl said.

One Shibuya shopkeeper said younger children have begun coming in groups just within the past year.

It is a dangerous season, according to the National Police Agency, which says about 20 percent the total of 406,519 crimes reported in 2002 in which minors were victims took place in July and August.

In a convocation on Friday, the last day before summer break for the 220 or so students of Onarimon Junior High School in Tokyo's Minato Ward, Principle Noboru Miyamoto recalled such recent incidents as the killing of a junior high school student by fellow students in Okinawa and the slaying of a 4-year-old by a 12-year-old in Nagasaki. He emphasized the need to value life and restrain impulses.

``Once a life is lost, you cannot reset it to be alive as you would in a video game,'' he said.

And he referred to the four girls, telling his students, ``Sometimes, there are dangers lurking here and there that you would never dream of.''

Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi told his Cabinet families should be urged to be extra cautious during vacation.(IHT/Asahi: July 19,2003)

(07/19)

Vapour
20th July 2003, 01:41
Ohhh dear, another wide show news which get repeated until people start to yawn.

Mekugi
20th July 2003, 09:58
Huh? What's that mean.

Do you have kids? Whichever way the media white-washes their news, there has been a LARGE number of attacks on children; almost equally shocking is the amount of crimes committed by children in the last 10 years. This is a HUGE concern to me, as a parent with a child in Japan.

-Russ


Originally posted by Vapour
Ohhh dear, another wide show news which get repeated until people start to yawn.

Vapour
20th July 2003, 10:32
In Britain, we just had slightly similar incident of kidnap scare of 12 years old who went along to Paris with her internet boyfriend. What people don't notice is that serious crime against children especially murder are on decrease. Funny thing is that analysis of poll regarding fear of crime widely diverge with actual crime rate.

My father happen to have a friend who is a police officer veteran. According to him serious crime against children in Japan are not something new as people believe. Nor a child who commit murder. Only thing which has changed is the media coverage. Child murderer appear every decade according to him, however, 20 years ago, it warranted very small coverage. If I remember, *statistically*, it was still rare in Japn to have a child murdered by stranger. Things being bad in Japan and all that, I assume statistics might have gone up a bit recently, however, the actual rate is nonetheless so low that it has no signifcance in real term. Think in this way, you are more likely to be murdered than your kids. Does this terrifies you?

No, I don't have a kid. However, I have a baby sister (10 years younger than me :)). I told (ordered :)) her not to apply for universities in Manchester where I live becasue crime rate, especially student area, is one of the highest in Britain. Funny thing is that I was never bothered by the the fact that I live in one of the rather unsafe area. I feel very safe to be honest. On the other hand, But I couldn't let my baby sister come to where I live. So go figure.

Mekugi
20th July 2003, 11:20
Let me re-quote myself.

Originally posted by Mekugi
I have been saying this for FREAKING YEARS...each time I was told that "your culture is different, you're un-accepting of other's culture, you are Ethnocentric." Well, here come da Judge...
(07/19)

I have known this for years. It is now being picked up by the media.


Where is the crime agaist children on the decrease? The UK or Japan?

I think the information for each country is different, no?

-Russ

Vapour
20th July 2003, 12:12
?? I don't get it. All you had to do was to get some crime statistics. Why do you have to debate? I rather think that you based your argument on your fear rather than number.

Anyway, if you see my post, I stated that even if there is an upward trend in statistics regarding serious crime against children the rate itself is so minute that it hardly makes difference especially if you think in term of fear and hype it create. As I said, you are far far more likely to be murdered than your children but that doesn't seem to bother you that much, does it.

Another good example is child abuse. If I remember, 15 years ago in Japan, when a child died as a result of parental abuse, it was treated as any other type of muder or accident, i.e. it turned up in very tiny corner of newspaper (sometimes only local newspaer). It was also called sekkan-shi, sekkan meaning punishment (for children) which kind tell you a lot about what people used to think. I would think the situation has change a bit but nowhere near the the extent of U.K. In U.K. if that happen, it's front page news sometimes.

Strictly speaking, any murder is a murder and should be equally serious. Degree in which one particular murder are covered far more than other indicate the degree of hype.

But since you are a father, this doesn't mean anything to you, does it?

Mekugi
21st July 2003, 11:58
I agree that a murder is a murder. Then again, someone who kills another person for stealing his car compared to a person who kills a little boy because it was "fun" is an entirely different tune.

This type crap has been going on for years and getting the blind eye for years.

I mean, how can you have crime in a country that does not have any crime? Or has that just been a myth all along?

-Russ

Striking Hand
21st July 2003, 12:19
Russ.

There has always been crime in Japan.

What I don't get how the hell were those girls raised??

There is no chance in hell that a 11 or 12yr old child of mine will accept a part-time cleaning job for 10.000 Yen.

Lets face it the parents and surrounding society make it way too easy for this type of predators.

Cheers.

Senjojutsu
21st July 2003, 12:37
Actually in American jurisprudence, there are several categories of "homicide", which both Murder and Manslaughter would fall under.

Each state, and the Federal Government, have definition variations and different naming conventions, such as "Premeditated Murder" or "Capital Murder" being is the equivalent of First Degree Murder, or "Aggravated Manslaughter" could be a state's naming variation to its most serious charge for voluntary Manslaughter. Variations may include specific scenarios, that is, all homicides if they occur during a kidnapping are Capital Murder.

Just an example below taken from my state's "classification":
======================================================
Massachusetts law defines a homicide as the willful (non-negligent) killing of one human being by another.   There are two categories of criminal homicide under Massachusetts' law, murder and manslaughter. There are also different classifications of murder and manslaughter.   Which homicide crime has been committed (and the punishment that can or must be imposed) generally depends on the manner in which the crime was committed and the intent on the part of the perpetrator.

Classifications of Murder:
First Degree Murder
Second Degree Murder

Classifications of Manslaughter:
Voluntary Manslaughter
Involuntary Manslaughter
Vehicular Homicide
==================

Of course in all these legalistic scenarios there is one absolute fact,
the victim is dead!

Mekugi
22nd July 2003, 00:03
Yep,

I would have to agree with that as well.

-Russ


Originally posted by Striking Hand
Russ.

There has always been crime in Japan.

What I don't get how the hell were those girls raised??

There is no chance in hell that a 11 or 12yr old child of mine will accept a part-time cleaning job for 10.000 Yen.

Lets face it the parents and surrounding society make it way too easy for this type of predators.

Cheers.

Kobe
22nd July 2003, 09:02
Russ,
Do not worry, according to you the solution its quite easy, give him/her a gun to protect him/herself.
No bad feelings jus following your logic.

Vapour
23rd July 2003, 15:16
My country is certainly safer than u.k. or u.s. but I'm quite sure some european countries do better than Japan.

Anyway, even if you see Japanese crime statistics and find out that chance of your kid becoming a victim of crime is astronomically low which is the case in any developed countris, you will never be satisfied because you are a dad.

Mekugi
26th July 2003, 17:53
No. You are misunderstanding and misreading, then forming your own conclusions while being smarmy.

-Russ


Originally posted by Kobe
Russ,
Do not worry, according to you the solution its quite easy, give him/her a gun to protect him/herself.
No bad feelings jus following your logic.

Mekugi
27th July 2003, 10:37
What crime statistics are we talking about? How can you have crime in a country without crime?

Show me your "statistics on crime".

-Russ


Originally posted by Vapour
My country is certainly safer than u.k. or u.s. but I'm quite sure some european countries do better than Japan.

Anyway, even if you see Japanese crime statistics and find out that chance of your kid becoming a victim of crime is astronomically low which is the case in any developed countris, you will never be satisfied because you are a dad.

Vapour
27th July 2003, 15:44
I don't know where you heard this stuff about land of no-crime bullock. Japanese crime rate were certainly low compared to U.S. and Britain but I'm quite sure some European countries do better than Japan.

And believe it or not, if you go to real country side, people still don't lock their door. There is a song which make fun of my home prefecture Saga which miraculously became a hit while back. You might want to chekc it out.

Vapour
27th July 2003, 15:53
Here is the stat.

http://www.npa.go.jp/toukei/index.htm

btw, crime do happen in Saga. It just that it tend to be personal.

Ryu Sekkendo
27th July 2003, 16:17
Having been to Japan, and having close friends from the country for over 6 years, any talk about Japan not having crime is utter nonsense. Japan has violent and sadistic crime just like anywhere else. The country also has a dark and sleazy underbelly that a lot of people don't like to talk about.

There is one thing, however, that greatly disturbs me at the top of this thread....
"I have been saying this for FREAKING YEARS...each time I was told that "your culture is different, you're un-accepting of other's culture, you are Ethnocentric."

I HOPE this does not mean that people have said "child pornography, rape, prostitution, murder, and selling girls into sex videos," is somehow CULTURAL???? :redhot:

First off, this is an insult to Japan itself considering ALL the Japanese I've talked to are just as much disgusted with these types of things as anyone else would be.

Second, anyone who chalks up "child pornography, rape, and murder" to "cultural relativism" , is an evil person. Simple as that.

I HOPE that I have misunderstood what that statement was saying...
whoever said you were "unnaccepting of culture" if you disliked that kind of thing was wrong, insulting to the Japanese, and all around a sick person.

Ryu

Billy King

Mekugi
28th July 2003, 21:43
Nope, no misunderstanding!

It's because I am a foreigner living in a country that thinks they are perfect in every way!

-R

Originally posted by Ryu Sekkendo
Having been to Japan, and having close friends from the country for over 6 years, any talk about Japan not having crime is utter nonsense. Japan has violent and sadistic crime just like anywhere else. The country also has a dark and sleazy underbelly that a lot of people don't like to talk about.

There is one thing, however, that greatly disturbs me at the top of this thread....
"I have been saying this for FREAKING YEARS...each time I was told that "your culture is different, you're un-accepting of other's culture, you are Ethnocentric."

I HOPE this does not mean that people have said "child pornography, rape, prostitution, murder, and selling girls into sex videos," is somehow CULTURAL???? :redhot:

First off, this is an insult to Japan itself considering ALL the Japanese I've talked to are just as much disgusted with these types of things as anyone else would be.

Second, anyone who chalks up "child pornography, rape, and murder" to "cultural relativism" , is an evil person. Simple as that.

I HOPE that I have misunderstood what that statement was saying...
whoever said you were "unnaccepting of culture" if you disliked that kind of thing was wrong, insulting to the Japanese, and all around a sick person.

Ryu

Billy King

Mekugi
28th July 2003, 21:48
OHH great...police statistics...yeah those are real cut and dried.
"How can there be crime in a country that does not have any crime?"

These are the same people that lied about crime rates not 10 years ago, and are infamous for not reporting things because of the paperwork, no?

-R


Originally posted by Vapour
Here is the stat.

http://www.npa.go.jp/toukei/index.htm

btw, crime do happen in Saga. It just that it tend to be personal.

Vapour
29th July 2003, 03:09
I'm sort of having dejavu of Kobe. He said something like for 99% of japanese people, burakumin are less than human. Now I have someone claiming that Japanese consider their society to be crimeless and perfect.

I get tired of this. I have made an argument that there are too much hype about crimes against or by the children. Obviously many people would disagree with my view and I'm totally o.k. with that. But I'm not o.k. when debates are substituted for something else.

Crime, racism, sexism in Japan are legitmiate issue of debate. Hey, we got plenty of that. Having said it, using liberalism to bitch about a country or people is a form of racism. What is the difference between saying 99% of japanese are racist and saying 99% of black male are criminals. Japanese consider Japan to be crimeless and perfect? That's total bull.

Mekugi
29th July 2003, 04:51
Be aware that it's not me claiming that.

Just a point of view about anzen nihon, keiwa neh!

FYI Police write ups are not a good sample of the crime committed, they are ~only~ the crimes that filed in as paperwork by the police. Unlike murder that has a dead body and a paper trail from several different sources, these crime rates are soley based on the paperwork that the police do. However, the amount of paperwork that is done is not necissarily reflecting the actual amount of criminal activity. End of story.

Let me use a example for you:

Oregon used to have one of the worst criminal write up %-wise about 10 years ago, until it was realized that the reason for such high crime was that people ACTUALLY REPORTED CRIME and the police ACTUALLY FILED IT. While, in NYC, the crime rate was "OHH SOO LOW". Guess why that was? My arse.

Simple fact, my GF has had her bike stolen 5 times in the last year. Every time she reported it to the police, but they only bothered to take a report ~once~ and that was the first time. Reason? Paperwork. "We already know there is a problem here, we don't need to record it anymore" was his answer to me. Ahhh yes, the hint of the lazy police box still lingers in my nostrils.

How can you have crime in a crimeless society? You don't report it. You ignore it. Getting the picture?

-Russ



Originally posted by Vapour
I'm sort of having dejavu of Kobe. He said something like for 99% of japanese people, burakumin are less than human. Now I have someone claiming that Japanese consider their society to be crimeless and perfect.

Vapour
29th July 2003, 20:30
One, your statement that Japanese cosider japan to be crimeless/perfect is not only false. I did question you motive for making such false claim.

Two, you are now substituting issue with "lower" rate of crime in Japan which is not what you said. As you pointed out, statistics of serious crime especially murder with exception of rape are rarely affected by the difference in willingness of victims to report such crimes. If you bothered to look into the link I provided, it makes it abandantly clear that my assesement is correct. U.S. and U.K. has higher crime rate than Japan but I guessed that some European countries do better. If you think the difference in rate of reporting minor crimes such as bicycle theft can change that fact, you are the one living in fantasy world.

As of interesting issue of difference between fear of crime and actual crime itself, here is an article which might enlighten you a bit.

http://www.economist.com/World/europe/displayStory.cfm?story_id=1927126

Just because people around you do not match your level of paranoia about crime is no reason to start bitching about entire country or people.

Ryu Sekkendo
29th July 2003, 21:13
I don't even know what's being discussed here at this point. I've never met any Japanese person who said Japan had no crime. Most of them are quick to tell me that Japan does have its fair share. As far as percentages towards the U.S...well I can only go with what the Japanese have told me. Most think their country much safer on average than the U.S.

I thought someone had said that child pornography, murder, and sex crimes were simply "culturally relative" ..... which is again the most insulting thing you can say to a culture, and in my experience is the kind of thing that only the people OUTSIDE the culture would actually say.

Ryu

Mekugi
30th July 2003, 00:37
"One, your statement that Japanese cosider japan to be crimeless/perfect is not only false. I did question you motive for making such false claim."

Experience.

"Two, you are now substituting issue with "lower" rate of crime in Japan which is not what you said. As you pointed out, statistics of serious crime especially murder with exception of rape are rarely affected by the difference in willingness of victims to report such crimes. If you bothered to look into the link I provided, it makes it abandantly clear that my assesement is correct. U.S. and U.K. has higher crime rate than Japan but I guessed that some European countries do better. If you think the difference in rate of reporting minor crimes such as bicycle theft can change that fact, you are the one living in fantasy world."

This is your stuff, you're putting words in my mouth.
RAPE RATHER NORMAL (http://www.eightballmagazine.com/wjh/2003/051303.htm)
POLITICS NOT FACTS (http://www.equityfeminism.com/discussion/fullthread$msgnum=92)

See, I can find little sources on the internet too. Just because a police estimate says low this year, doesn't mean squat. The sample has to be a little broader than the local police box. I am talking about MY experience. Get me?

"As of interesting issue of difference between fear of crime and actual crime itself, here is an article which might enlighten you a bit.

http://www.economist.com/World/europe/displayStory.cfm?story_id=1927126"

Been there done that, it enlightened nothing. Europe needs to foucs on France.

"Just because people around you do not match your level of paranoia about crime is no reason to start bitching about entire country or people."

Ummm....OKAY....did you see the newspaper article about that little kid that was molested and thrown off the roof of a building? Did you hear that for "NO REASON" the police issued a public child predator alert (this is according to your statistics)? I can site about 30 other incidents I have heard of recently. I guess the police, the source you are quoting originally, don't know what they are doing? Which is it, they issued an alert because the crime is low, or they issued the alert because there is a threat? Take that in a while.

-Russ

Ryu Sekkendo
30th July 2003, 01:06
While I'm very aware of the statitory rape aspects of Japan, and the sex crimes that do go on there, I do not think you should take a website whose ad banners read "F*#A@ these college t*ts" very seriously...


Ryu

Kobe
30th July 2003, 01:30
Vapour,
Dejavu between Mekugi and me??? Not at all, I do not think we share a single opinion in any issue. I´m sorry you did not like my comment about burakumin, but just the word(burakumin or eta, as you prefer) it means a lot, plus the point that very few japanese people feel like to speak about this issue. Racism exist in Japan, it can not be discuss, people who are not 100% pure japanese breed or american/european white and with money can account for this.

Russ,
Curious how you like to change the base of your ideas, you can defend an issue talking only about stadistics and not accepting personal ideas, opinions or experience, now that it comes another issue then you talk only about your experience, because stadistic is wrong.
One of the things I like of Japan is how safe you can walk on the streets, in any city in any corner in the country at any time, of course something can happend but its unlikely, and that it should be specially apreciated by you americans that in your country, in many many areas the risk of being in dangerous situation is very high, til the point that to feel more secure you need a gun.
You can not compare situation in US and Japan, you can relax about your children, even if you are living in the most secure place or the world(maybe Singapore) still, something can happend, but its no wonder that in some places the possibilities that something happend are higher than others, one of the places with less posibilities its, no doubt, Japan. Wheter stadistics are hidden or not by the police.

Mekugi
30th July 2003, 01:39
Who was comparing the US to Japan? Wasn't me.
I happen to feel that Japan whitewashes it's crime- as a matter of fact I KNOW they do. The police and the political environment that has existed in this country has been doing so for ages. There is nothing to imply "USA vs. Japan". Where is this coming from? Did I say that the USA was safe?

Again, you really need to read things before you respond to them.

-Russ


Originally posted by Kobe
Vapour,
Dejavu between Mekugi and me??? Not at all, I do not think we share a single opinion in any issue. I´m sorry you did not like my comment about burakumin, but just the word(burakumin or eta, as you prefer) it means a lot, plus the point that very few japanese people feel like to speak about this issue. Racism exist in Japan, it can not be discuss, people who are not 100% pure japanese breed or american/european white and with money can account for this.

Russ,
Curious how you like to change the base of your ideas, you can defend an issue talking only about stadistics and not accepting personal ideas, opinions or experience, now that it comes another issue then you talk only about your experience, because stadistic is wrong.
One of the things I like of Japan is how safe you can walk on the streets, in any city in any corner in the country at any time, of course something can happend but its unlikely, and that it should be specially apreciated by you americans that in your country, in many many areas the risk of being in dangerous situation is very high, til the point that to feel more secure you need a gun.
You can not compare situation in US and Japan, you can relax about your children, even if you are living in the most secure place or the world(maybe Singapore) still, something can happend, but its no wonder that in some places the possibilities that something happend are higher than others, one of the places with less posibilities its, no doubt, Japan. Wheter stadistics are hidden or not by the police.

Kobe
30th July 2003, 03:00
Russ,
You, me and everyone compare always, otherwise we can not give mesure. Why it surprise you so much that a child throw another child from a roof? Because its a thing that you never heard/happend in your country. Now we can take that and to ask a person in Sierra Leone, where children are killing children every single day, and people will not be surprise, without telling but they are comparing their country with the country where happen the incident.
Why it surprise me that someone owns a gun? Because in my country nobody do that, why for you its so normal and common? because in your country its normal and you are seing people owning a gun since your childhood. So, we always compare, even without noticing.
Said that, still, I´m amaze that you left your logic somewhere, how a guy so fond of stadistic, figures and numbers(as you try to remind me in the gun issue) can say something like "as a matter of fact I KNOW...." have you direct acces to some secret files?, are you a very good friend of the director of police in Mie prefecture? are you accounting all the cycles that are stolen?
Of course not, you are just giving you opinion, emotional and baseless, but not for that less valuable, its what you think and feel and people should respect that, something that you did not in other threads.
Finally, as I remember your worrys in the begining of the thread, your children are much more safe in Japan that in your country, even than in my country and the only worry it can be the ridiculous educational system of this country. That its very dangerous indeed.

Mekugi
30th July 2003, 04:39
"You, me and everyone compare always, otherwise we can not give mesure."

I wasn't comparing anything to the USA no matter how much you want to think I was.

"Why it surprise you so much that a child throw another child from a roof?"

Because it is sickening.

"Because its a thing that you never heard/happend in your country."

No, it's still sickening.

"Now we can take that and to ask a person in Sierra Leone, where children are killing children every single day, and people will not be surprise, without telling but they are comparing their country with the country where happen the incident."

I wasn't talking about Sierra Leone, this is your story, not mine.

repeat:
I wasn't comparing anything to the USA no matter how much you want to think I was.

"Why it surprise me that someone owns a gun?"

I dunno, this is your story.

"Because in my country nobody do that, why for you its so normal and common? because in your country its normal and you are seing people owning a gun since your childhood. So, we always compare, even without noticing."

What country is that, and what does this have to do with child molesting and crime?

repeat:
I wasn't comparing anything to the USA no matter how much you want to think I was.

"Said that, still, I´m amaze that you left your logic somewhere, how a guy so fond of stadistic, figures and numbers(as you try to remind me in the gun issue) can say something like "as a matter of fact I KNOW...." have you direct acces to some secret files?"

Let me say this : "huh?"

"are you a very good friend of the director of police in Mie prefecture?"

Is there such a thing? What are you talking about?

"are you accounting all the cycles that are stolen?"

What?

"Of course not, you are just giving you opinion, emotional and baseless, but not for that less valuable, its what you think and feel and people should respect that, something that you did not in other threads."

My opinion is based directly on the experience of myself and several others I have discussed this topic with. That is, other parents who have had similar experiences and not just my own. The concern I have about adults and other children kidnapping children and doing horrible things to them is real and it DOES happen. Believe it or not. No matter how much you want to say that it doesn't, it does exist.

"Finally, as I remember your worrys in the begining of the thread, your children are much more safe in Japan that in your country, even than in my country and the only worry it can be the ridiculous educational system of this country. That its very dangerous indeed."

repeat: I wasn't comparing anything to the USA no matter how much you want to think I was.

-Russ

Kobe
30th July 2003, 05:21
Russ,
Whatever you said, do not worry I will not explain more of "my stories" as I realize you do not understand a damm, maybe its my english.
One thing its that child crime exist and another thing its that may happen or affect to you. Sharks exist and sometimes kill people(its real and it happend, using your own words), it does not mean that every time you go to the beach you are going to be attack and kill(actually, the possibilities are extremely low). Your point its that child crime exist, that its true, but the real possibility that will affect you is extremely low, specially in Japan. I hope now you will understand my point.

Striking Hand
30th July 2003, 05:42
Russ.

I have to side with Kobe and Vapour here.

If my Bicycle get stolen 5 times, "I" have to ask myself what AM "I" doing wrong.

Crime obvioulsy exists in Japan as it does everywhere.
But too many people got blinds on and say "I" am doing nothing wrong it is the Police, system, country, etc.

Having lived out here for a few years I tend to socialise less and less with foreigners, WHY, because I find a lot of them tend to bitch and moan too much about their host country.

It is easy to blame the cops, criminals and so on, when in reality it is the people that complain that make it easy for the criminals to do their stuff (Japanese and foreigners alike).

As for Bicycles, I have to travel every saturday 8km to koganei park to train and park my Bicycle outside the sports centre.
Nothing ever went missing or similar and it is way more fancy and expensive than the other Bicycles there.
Granted I remove the speedo(wireless) and a few other accesorries(pump, etc).

Ciao.

Mekugi
30th July 2003, 06:50
Let me specify something here.

There crime and criminal behaviour is a socail problem.

There is no comparison to the actions of people and inanimate objects (fireaerms)or animals;in essence the crime is yet again, the responsibility of the individual.

I am not blaming the government, nor have I hinted anywhere that it was the governments fault. I am not blaming the police, nor have I hinted anywhere that it was the fault of the police. I have not stated anywhere that country A is better than country B. Nowhere have I entertained the idea that the USA was better than any other place.

What I have entertained is the fact that there is a problem here in Japan, it has been here for a long time. It is now starting to get noticed more and more as the "social conscience" changes. No amount of statistics or blabbering will change that simple fact that there is a social problem, and it's root lies in the individual.

-Russ

Mekugi
30th July 2003, 06:59
"If my Bicycle get stolen 5 times, "I" have to ask myself what AM "I" doing wrong."

OK you're right, the problem was my GF left her bicycle in a publically designated area to leave bicycles at the train station. It's her fault.

"Crime obvioulsy exists in Japan as it does everywhere.
But too many people got blinds on and say "I" am doing nothing wrong it is the Police, system, country, etc."

Missing the point. If I am standing on a street corner and somebody attacks me from behind, takes my wallet and leaves me partially dim for the rest of my life, exactly how is that my fault? I should not have been outside in a publice place? That was my doing?
Again, I never once blamed the Japanese Government, the police or anyone else for any social problems.


"Having lived out here for a few years I tend to socialise less and less with foreigners, WHY, because I find a lot of them tend to bitch and moan too much about their host country."

Okay....no one is hosting me. I have a real job. I bitch about the USA even more. You just aren't hearing it, so the point is moot.

"It is easy to blame the cops, criminals and so on, when in reality it is the people that complain that make it easy for the criminals to do their stuff (Japanese and foreigners alike)."

Where are you getting this? Who blamed the police? What makes you think that the criminals are not to blame here? Are you trying to say that the criminal is somehow innocent?

"As for Bicycles, I have to travel every saturday 8km to koganei park to train and park my Bicycle outside the sports centre.
Nothing ever went missing or similar and it is way more fancy and expensive than the other Bicycles there.
Granted I remove the speedo(wireless) and a few other accesorries(pump, etc)."

Okay....good fortune smiled on you. What's that have to do with child molesting and assualt again??

Matter of fact, what did any of this have to do with Child Predators.

Sorry, maybe I am not in a good mood today or something, but the content of this post seems sisyphean and I am repeating myself over and over when replying.

-Russ

Striking Hand
30th July 2003, 07:33
OK you're right, the problem was my GF left her bicycle in a publically designated area to leave bicycles at the train station. It's her fault.


Was it locked properly. Most of the cases I heard about bicycle theft they tended to return a few days later.

Your average thief is a drunken Salary-man that can't find his bicycle and takes the first one he can lay his hands on.

FWIW, Bicycle seat theft is more common than stealing the WHOLE bocycle.


Missing the point. If I am standing on a street corner and somebody attacks me from behind, takes my wallet and leaves me partially dim for the rest of my life, exactly how is that my fault? I should not have been outside in a publice place? That was my doing?
Again, I never once blamed the Japanese Government, the police or anyone else for any social problems.


Lets see the same thing happened to me outside of Japan and I guess happens a lot to people.

When it happened to me, YES, it was my fault for being NOT AWARE of my surroundings
On average thiefs and similar go for easy targets.


Okay....no one is hosting me. I have a real job. I bitch about the USA even more. You just aren't hearing it, so the point is moot.


Nobody is hosting me either, I got here with a few suitcases, my Japanese Wife, NO Apartment and NO job for either.


Where are you getting this? Who blamed the police? What makes you think that the criminals are not to blame here? Are you trying to say that the criminal is somehow innocent?

You complaining that the cops ignoring crime and similar.


Okay....good fortune smiled on you.


Maybe you should come and get some as according to the guys on here I seem to be blessed since I got a problem free life in Japan. :D


What's that have to do with child molesting and assualt again??


What got your GF's bicycle theft to do with it or what the japanese think about their country.

I got my Son at the local goverment Creche and you should see how the security and so on has changed after the incidents across japan in the last few years.

In my area the cops are very helpful and friendly, e had to report a few times items that my son dropped and similar, everything got returned and quickly.

Japanese are FULLy aware of what's happening and are taking actions.
Heck, everytime something happens somewhere in japan we are getting some cops stationed at the creche.


Matter of fact, what did any of this have to do with Child Predators.


Child Predators exist everywhere and the best defense/protection against them is proper education & raising of your Kids.

Seeya round.

Vapour
30th July 2003, 07:40
You pretty much lost your arguments from the beginning because you made rather exaggerated claim. You might reconsider your statement in regard to your claim that japanese consider Japan to be crimeless. There is no point in picking a fight which you cannot hope to win.

On the issue of crime rate in Japan, you have brought up a valid point, under-reporting of crimes. Unfortunately, you pused your argument too far. As I stated few times, under reporting cannot affect serious crime except rape, therefore, rate of homocide, break in, armed robbery, arson, and theft of valuable such as automobile, are valid basis for internationa comparison of crime rate. Based on these statistics, Japan can be considered as a country relatively low in crime thought that certainly does not make Japan crimeless.

There are tendency in Japan to use U.S. as a benchmark for comparison for anything from economic to social matter. As someone who lives in Europe, I do believe that Japan should grow out of such exercises, especially in regard to social matter. If you widen the sample of comparison, it become quite obvious that Japanese crime rate is only o.k. nothing special.

Now, as of whole conspiracy of politicians and police covering up these statistics, that is an very interesting assertion you are making though usually it is bureaucrats who consipire in Japan not politician. But if it is a conspiracy, you cannot know that can you. Otherwise, it is not a consiprary, or at least not a good one. ;)

Mekugi
30th July 2003, 08:12
You're reaching here.

Yes the bicycle was locked properly. DOn't you think it was odd that the various bikes were stolen 5 different times?
Matter of fact, two turned up. Destroyed, but they turned up.

Ignoring crime is not the same as blaming the police for crime. Nowhere did I state that the police are responsible for crime in Japan. Not once.

Trouble free life?

Hmmm...what are you a school teacher?

-Russ

Originally posted by Striking Hand

OK you're right, the problem was my GF left her bicycle in a publically designated area to leave bicycles at the train station. It's her fault.


Was it locked properly. Most of the cases I heard about bicycle theft they tended to return a few days later.

Your average thief is a drunken Salary-man that can't find his bicycle and takes the first one he can lay his hands on.

FWIW, Bicycle seat theft is more common than stealing the WHOLE bocycle.


Missing the point. If I am standing on a street corner and somebody attacks me from behind, takes my wallet and leaves me partially dim for the rest of my life, exactly how is that my fault? I should not have been outside in a publice place? That was my doing?
Again, I never once blamed the Japanese Government, the police or anyone else for any social problems.


Lets see the same thing happened to me outside of Japan and I guess happens a lot to people.

When it happened to me, YES, it was my fault for being NOT AWARE of my surroundings
On average thiefs and similar go for easy targets.


Okay....no one is hosting me. I have a real job. I bitch about the USA even more. You just aren't hearing it, so the point is moot.


Nobody is hosting me either, I got here with a few suitcases, my Japanese Wife, NO Apartment and NO job for either.


Where are you getting this? Who blamed the police? What makes you think that the criminals are not to blame here? Are you trying to say that the criminal is somehow innocent?

You complaining that the cops ignoring crime and similar.


Okay....good fortune smiled on you.


Maybe you should come and get some as according to the guys on here I seem to be blessed since I got a problem free life in Japan. :D


What's that have to do with child molesting and assualt again??


What got your GF's bicycle theft to do with it or what the japanese think about their country.

I got my Son at the local goverment Creche and you should see how the security and so on has changed after the incidents across japan in the last few years.

In my area the cops are very helpful and friendly, e had to report a few times items that my son dropped and similar, everything got returned and quickly.

Japanese are FULLy aware of what's happening and are taking actions.
Heck, everytime something happens somewhere in japan we are getting some cops stationed at the creche.


Matter of fact, what did any of this have to do with Child Predators.


Child Predators exist everywhere and the best defense/protection against them is proper education & raising of your Kids.

Seeya round.

Mekugi
30th July 2003, 08:22
Sez you!

I wish I had a dollar for every time I go into a business meeting and the talk about the "horrible American crime rate" and the "danger of America" comes up. Then it goes into the "wow Japan is so safe" and "our system is sooo much better". You gotta be kidding you never heard this. Is it because you don't hang out with the middle class execs AKA "sarari man"? Maybe.

BTW...rape is a crime that tend to go under-reported. Car theft I never brought up, Murder you have a body....sometimes. Then there are the people that leave suicide notes and jump out of windows without showing ANY signs of depression or suicidal tendancies.....oh yeah that is not murder, that's normal.

I never based any statistics or attempted to compare any crime rates but only expressed my opinion and prior knowledge of the point of children being abused, and that is a problem they tend to cover up IMHO. All of a sudden there were a tyraid of posts saying "OHH THAT JUST ISN'T SO" or at least attempting to argue that there is no problem. Hmmm....

Seems that the arguement has really swayed away from my original point here- why is that? Is it because you don't want to stay on the subject? It seems once I brought out the fact that there was a puiblic warning issued by the same police that say "crimes against children is dropping" the whole thing turned around and left be.

-Russ



Originally posted by Vapour
You pretty much lost your arguments from the beginning because you made rather exaggerated claim. You might reconsider your statement in regard to your claim that japanese consider Japan to be crimeless. There is no point in picking a fight which you cannot hope to win.

On the issue of crime rate in Japan, you have brought up a valid point, under-reporting of crimes. Unfortunately, you pused your argument too far. As I stated few times, under reporting cannot affect serious crime except rape, therefore, rate of homocide, break in, armed robbery, arson, and theft of valuable such as automobile, are valid basis for internationa comparison of crime rate. Based on these statistics, Japan can be considered as a country relatively low in crime thought that certainly does not make Japan crimeless.

There are tendency in Japan to use U.S. as a benchmark for comparison for anything from economic to social matter. As someone who lives in Europe, I do believe that Japan should grow out of such exercises, especially in regard to social matter. If you widen the sample of comparison, it become quite obvious that Japanese crime rate is only o.k. nothing special.

Now, as of whole conspiracy of politicians and police covering up these statistics, that is an very interesting assertion you are making though usually it is bureaucrats who consipire in Japan not politician. But if it is a conspiracy, you cannot know that can you. Otherwise, it is not a consiprary, or at least not a good one. ;)

Striking Hand
30th July 2003, 08:28
Originally posted by Mekugi
Trouble free life?

Hmmm...what are you a school teacher?


Try SE/Consultant for a Company that deals mostly with Banks, Insurance companies and similar.

Most of the Software we deal with comes from overseas, FWIW, I am the only foreigner at that company.

Seeya.

Mekugi
30th July 2003, 09:36
Foreign banks or local? Why does the software matter?
I too am the lone whitey in my work. Probably the only foreigner over here doing this kind of business, as a matter of fact.

-Russ

Originally posted by Striking Hand


Try SE/Consultant for a Company that deals mostly with Banks, Insurance companies and similar.

Most of the Software we deal with comes from overseas, FWIW, I am the only foreigner at that company.

Seeya.

Striking Hand
30th July 2003, 10:03
Foreign banks or local?

Both.

Why does the software matter?

Specialised ERP/EAI Software and full web-integration, for many we are the Japanese agent. We also supply Hardware on request.

Most of our development is done over in Shangai.

I too am the lone whitey in my work. Probably the only foreigner over here doing this kind of business, as a matter of fact.

Can't remember what you do. :(

Cheers.

hyaku
30th July 2003, 13:47
Originally posted by Vapour
Here is the stat.

http://www.npa.go.jp/toukei/index.htm

btw, crime do happen in Saga. It just that it tend to be personal.

There is really no need whatsoever to inform us about the crime rate in Saga.

Bottom end you have a inumerous underwear thieves stashing ladies underwear in electricity juction boxes in Mansions and peering through letterboxes at unsuspecting people when they are getting ready for work.

Secondly you have gangs of youths (bosozoku) screaming around the bypass at 3:00 am in the morning on weekends actualy being escorted by the local police.

Then you have gangs of guys in cars that will grab and block off the road of an unsuspecting girl on a bycycle and bundle her the a car (leave the rest to your imagination).

Top end we had a bus hijacker who knifed a grandmother to death.

My main point is only this last incident actualy got into the newspapers and went out internationaly for a short time.

You are right about the other crimes. They are personal. But I take them very personaly. I would wish to live in a safe neigbourhood. Being able to hang washing outside and not get woken up every Sunday evening at 3 in the morning!

Never seen so many pervs congregated together in the same place!

Hyakutake Colin

hyaku
30th July 2003, 14:03
Originally posted by Vapour
I don't know where you heard this stuff about land of no-crime bullock. Japanese crime rate were certainly low compared to U.S. and Britain but I'm quite sure some European countries do better than Japan.

And believe it or not, if you go to real country side, people still don't lock their door. There is a song which make fun of my home prefecture Saga which miraculously became a hit while back. You might want to chekc it out.

I don't know when you last lived in Saga? Leave you door unlocked at night? You really must be joking. We don't even leave our door unlocked in the daytime!

But as you say the song makes fun of Saga being inaka. Three thousand shops open at night, all with toilets but they still manage to pee in then streets. All I can say is reading your posts you must have spent most of your time here walking about with a blindfold on!

Hyakutake Colin

Vapour
30th July 2003, 14:16
Originally posted by Mekugi
Sez you!

I wish I had a dollar for every time I go into a business meeting and the talk about the "horrible American crime rate" and the "danger of America" comes up. Then it goes into the "wow Japan is so safe" and "our system is sooo much better". You gotta be kidding you never heard this. Is it because you don't hang out with the middle class execs AKA "sarari man"? Maybe.

BTW...rape is a crime that tend to go under-reported. Car theft I never brought up, Murder you have a body....sometimes. Then there are the people that leave suicide notes and jump out of windows without showing ANY signs of depression or suicidal tendancies.....oh yeah that is not murder, that's normal.

I never based any statistics or attempted to compare any crime rates but only expressed my opinion and prior knowledge of the point of children being abused, and that is a problem they tend to cover up IMHO. All of a sudden there were a tyraid of posts saying "OHH THAT JUST ISN'T SO" or at least attempting to argue that there is no problem. Hmmm....

Seems that the arguement has really swayed away from my original point here- why is that? Is it because you don't want to stay on the subject? It seems once I brought out the fact that there was a puiblic warning issued by the same police that say "crimes against children is dropping" the whole thing turned around and left be.

-Russ



There were tyranid of posts because you tend to have rather skewed argument which is quite obvious to everyone else. We were on truck until you made "Japanese think Japan to be crimeless" comment.

Now you are making a claim that large number of sucides in Japan are, in fact, murders. I think you are watching too much TV programme. Thought faking sucide as murder are common in TV, it is not so in real life. It is so much easier to hide body to avoid police investigation than going through all sort of trouble to make murder appear to be sucide. There are quite few professional cleaner of murder secne but not much of professional suicide faker for this obvious reason.

As of rape, though it is true that under raporting is unique aspect of this crime, study indicate that rape is like any other crimes in respect of its cause, that is crime of sexual assult are realting to general social deprivation such as poverty. If you see rape to be relating to domestic violence, it is quite obvious as to see why it is so. As you probably know, overwhelming majority of rape including child molestation are committed by someone victim personally knows.

For this reason, when attempting to assertain the extent of sexual assult, rather than trying to estimate the extent of underreporting which is near impossible, it is much common and accurate to estimate it from prevalance of other crimes and factor relating to crimes such as poverty. Though rape can be regarded as one of the most politically incorrect crime, there are no point to estimate the extent of such crime from measuring how politically correct certain society is because any crimes, on principle, are polticially incorrect as it violate other people's liberty. Under-reporting can be used to argue that actual crime rate is much higher than statistics suggest. However, it can not be used to to estimate the overall extent of crime itlsef nor one can argue that one paricular country's rate of sexual assult is higher than others based on extent of under reporting which is, at best, a guess. Such method is akin to trying to estimate the prevelence of crimes in particular society by counting number of time rape and violnce are committed on TV.

For this reason, I was not far off in making assertion, based on statistics regarding murder, robbery, serious assult and automobile theft, that *over all* crime rate including rape are lower in Japan than U.K. and U.S. but some European countries would be far safer

Lastly, from your comment, now I'm guessing that you are an American. I hope you are not trying to insinuate that Japan is equally dangerous as U.S.. Under-reporting of crime is not uniquely Japanese phenomena. In slum, various crime such as rape are rarely reported. As with anything, social deprivation is the single biggest cause of crimes including rape. And U.S. indeed have serious problem on this aspect. Now, it is true that these facts are often used by some people to put down U.S. or to insuniate that their society is somehow better. Now, you could lower the level of mental maturity by getting into my dad is better than you dad argument. Or you could point out to these people that reciting the crime rate of U.S. do not reduce the crimes of their own coutnry.

Vapour
30th July 2003, 14:51
Originally posted by hyaku


I don't know when you last lived in Saga? Leave you door unlocked at night? You really must be joking. We don't even leave our door unlocked in the daytime!

But as you say the song makes fun of Saga being inaka. Three thousand shops open at night, all with toilets but they still manage to pee in then streets. All I can say is reading your posts you must have spent most of your time here walking about with a blindfold on!

Hyakutake Colin

If you knew what song I'm talking about, you would have got the joke. The song goes like this.

"In Saga, people leave their door unlocked
Me and My family went away for a while
When we came back
Mrs Tanaka from next door was sleeping naked in our house" :D

People in Saga were quite pissed off initially and screamed of lies and exaggeration when the song hit the chart. I personally think the song is hiralious.

If you live in Saga shi, Kahima shi or Karatu shi, major cities (towns) in Saga, people do lock their door. I grew up in Saga-shi, btw. But It only takes less than 30 min to cycle out from the town and after that you see lot of paddy fields. I visted my friend who live in outer area of Saga where no Saga-shi-jin venture out. I was rather suprised to find that their door was unlocked when I visited them.

btw, do you live in Saga? Wow, it is rare to meet anyone from there. Nice to meet you.

Vapour
30th July 2003, 15:04
Originally posted by hyaku


Never seen so many pervs congregated together in the same place!

Hyakutake Colin

:laugh:

Vapour
30th July 2003, 15:12
Sorry, I know some stuff you mentioned were quite serious but you just crack me up with the last line. :nw:

hyaku
30th July 2003, 22:46
Yes I have been in Saga twenty one years now. Those rice fields you mention have almost all gone around the city. What was designated as a green belt (Hyogo) is all built up now in the usual fashion of book/video shops and a Kombeni on every corner. The castle is near completion built to the original plans thanks to Nabeshima's scribes keeping records and will house local artifacts and literature

This time last year I was woken up at three in the morning with someone trying to get in my car.

Sadly I have seen and will see my fair share of crime and suicides. What amazes me most is the way its all hushed up.

Hyakutake Colin

Vapour
31st July 2003, 01:14
Wow, 21 years in Saga. Bit suprised that i never heard about you. I might bump into you next time I go back.

We get few scally around where I live. Lot of things get nicked from windows if one leave it open. Also, our next block is called Longsight, a known slum, where people get gunned down occasionally. Funny thing is that it never bother me as far as my personal security are concerened.

I went to Akamatu-shogakko, Fuzoku-chugakko and Kogakku-kan. As you probably know, murder cases never get solved in Saga. :smilejapa

Mekugi
31st July 2003, 02:12
"There were tyranid of posts because you tend to have rather skewed argument which is quite obvious to everyone else. We were on truck until you made "Japanese think Japan to be crimeless" comment."

Well, I guess you have never heard that. I guess you never hear that. Can't help what you don't hear, that is the opinion I get from a LOT of Japanese nationals living here and abroad. Guess we have different experiences.

"Now you are making a claim that large number of sucides in Japan are, in fact, murders."

I never did. YOU just did though. I am saying how can you tell?

"I think you are watching too much TV programme."

I hate Japanese TV and I never watch it. Sorry.

"Thought faking sucide as murder are common in TV, it is not so in real life. It is so much easier to hide body to avoid police investigation than going through all sort of trouble to make murder appear to be sucide. There are quite few professional cleaner of murder secne but not much of professional suicide faker for this obvious reason."

I dunno, I don't watch TV. This is your story.

"As of rape, though it is true that under raporting is unique aspect of this crime, study indicate that rape is like any other crimes in respect of its cause, that is crime of sexual assult are realting to general social deprivation such as poverty."

Ohh so, the businessman that raped the foreign girl in my neighborhodd didn't have a nice house and salary job, wife and two kids? Bullocks man. Rape is a hate crime, not a poverty crime. Poverty is not a seedling for criminal behavior.

"If you see rape to be relating to domestic violence, it is quite obvious as to see why it is so."

Ummm....domestic violence as in wife? What are you talking about?
Rape doesn't always occur in the home.

"As you probably know, overwhelming majority of rape including child molestation are committed by someone victim personally knows. For this reason, when attempting to assertain the extent of sexual assult, rather than trying to estimate the extent of underreporting which is near impossible,it is much common and accurate to estimate it from prevalance of other crimes and factor relating to crimes such as poverty."

By stating that it is impossible, then you are agreeing that the police records are in error, thus nullifying your previous statements regarding the "facts". Also, if it is much easier to report theft, how can you know because it is "impossible"? Are Are you trying to rationalize this or what? I am not sure that poverty is a factor in Japan- you don't hear about homeless people raping people at random all the time, but you do hear about the middle aged sicko or the gang of teens that decide to tie a girl up and rape her. Bullocks.

"Though rape can be regarded as one of the most politically incorrect crime, there are no point to estimate the extent of such crime from measuring how politically correct certain society is because any crimes, on principle, are polticially incorrect as it violate other people's liberty."

Ummm...all crime is crime politically correct or not. Who was talking about politically correct? Look, if crimes against children is so low on actual child-molesting crimes and whatnot, can you try and explain to my why the police issued a warning against child predators?? I guess they don't know what they are doing? Hmm? Don't rationalize off the subject to avoid it...I am still waiting for an answer to that one.

"Under-reporting can be used to argue that actual crime rate is much higher than statistics suggest."

No, it is not argued, that is fact. When crimes go under-reported, then police statistics will not show the crime. Period.

"However, it can not be used to to estimate the overall extent of crime itlsef nor one can argue that one paricular country's rate of sexual assult is higher than others based on extent of under reporting which is, at best, a guess."

OK, then why did you bring it up then? If it is soooo useless then by extension you admit that your arguement is flawed.

"Such method is akin to trying to estimate the prevelence of crimes in particular society by counting number of time rape and violence are committed on TV."

They put that stuff on TV here?- like REAL crimes? So, they have a hour of TV reserved for viewing crime? Are you talking reality or fantasy? I don't watch TV so I don't know.

"For this reason, I was not far off in making assertion, based on statistics regarding murder, robbery, serious assult and automobile theft, that *over all* crime rate including rape are lower in Japan than U.K. and U.S. but some European countries would be far safer."

Ok...then why did the police just issue a warning against child predators? Rememeber that one?

Lastly, from your comment, now I'm guessing that you are an American.

Heh, took you long enough! I told you early on I was from Oregon.

"I hope you are not trying to insinuate that Japan is equally dangerous as U.S.."

Did you read that post a few steps back there or did you skip that one. GO back a few posts.

"Under-reporting of crime is not uniquely Japanese phenomena. In slum, various crime such as rape are rarely reported."

Where are you getting this malarky. Poverty doesn't mean you don't report crime.

"As with anything, social deprivation is the single biggest cause of crimes including rape."

Agreed.

"And U.S. indeed have serious problem on this aspect. Now, it is true that these facts are often used by some people to put down U.S. or to insuniate that their society is somehow better."

Exactly how would you know? You ever live there? The crime is actually very low where I come from, but it appears high because 80%-90% of the crimes are reported. Incidently, we have a lower income bracket than most of the states in the USA...so the slum/poverty theory is moot. Don't compare countries.

"Now, you could lower the level of mental maturity by getting into my dad is better than you dad argument."

No arguement there. My dad is better than your dad. Nahhhh. ;)

"Or you could point out to these people that reciting the crime rate of U.S. do not reduce the crimes of their own coutnry."

Umm.....I doesn't matter when people think that they have a crimeless society, enveloped by peace and flowers and fluffy bunnies. The best thing to do is nod and say "huh".

-Russ

Mekugi
31st July 2003, 03:36
[i]Originally posted by Striking Hand [/i

Can't remember what you do. :([/B]

I am moonlighting....my first job is that of Supervillian....Dokuta Amerika- I have the super powers throwing up after eating natto and wearing bright clothing during formal events. My nemisis is kaputan nihonjin, who's super powers involve superior electronic devices he does not know how to use and eating massive amounts of dried squid with Asahi beer.

Besides that, I am a Contract Negotiator/Overseas Division Manager for a watersports company.

BTW...There is another foreigner doing this type of work, the CEO for Bombardier International is from Shanghai. I should have said say American.

Striking Hand
31st July 2003, 08:30
Artivle (http://mdn.mainichi.co.jp/waiwai/index.html)



Spate of shocking child crimes has
parents pushing the paranoid button

By Ryann Connell
Staff Writer

July 31, 2003

A recent spate of shocking crimes involving pre-pubescent children has turned the vast majority of Japan's usually neglectful mothers and fathers into extremely paranoid parents, according to Shukan Jitsuwa (8/14).

Incidents where a 12-year-old schoolboy taken into custody for sexually mutilating and fatally dropping a 4-year-old toddler from an eight-story building and the four pre-teen schoolgirls found naked and bound in the room where their kidnapper committed suicide seem to have sparked a renewed vigor among adults anxious to protect their kids.

"After the 12-year-old schoolboy killer was revealed, teachers talked to the kids about the incident and explained to them once again about the importance of showing respect for life," a Saitama Prefecture parent tells Shukan Jitsuwa. "We called an emergency meeting of the PTA and talked about how it was important that we not neglect our kids."

An official from a school in Tochigi Prefecture adds: "During festivals or fireworks displays, police and firefighters usually do security work, but this year PTA members are going to be posted to look after children. Parents know more about the kids than outsiders do. PTA members are already carrying out regular patrols and have created networks where they can quickly get in touch with each other."

Many are already skeptical about this newfound concern.

"We got a letter from the school telling us we should only let our kids play outdoors from 10 a.m. to 6 p.m.," one parent moans to Shukan Jitsuwa. "If we kept to that schedule, the kids would hardly have any time to play at all over their summer vacation."

Local community members are also upset at what they see as parents' overreaction to the crimes.

"Somebody told me to remove all the adult books from my store so the kids won't be able to look at them," a Tochigi bookseller says. "Even so, as far as I'm concerned, those books are only a product to be sold."

An Ibaraki Prefecture clothing retailer expresses a similar opinion.

"I couldn't believe it when I was asked to stop selling children's bikinis, swimsuits, tank tops and miniskirts because they were too revealing," the trader says.

Even religious figures say parents' neo-conservatism is going a bit too far.

"We were told that the mini-kimono children wear during festivals exposed too much skin," a Shinto priest says. "Kids have been told to wear track suits underneath. Done up like that, they'll fry in the summer heat. I feel sorry for them."

Even experts feel that the sudden change among many parents is ineffective.

"Put simply, this impulsive change is really too little, too late. Showing care for children on a daily basis is important in preventing them from going astray or being led into a life of crime. Getting all flustered and cracking down just because there were a couple of child-related crimes is only probably going to make kids rebel. Warning them about clothes or dirty books is only going to sound like nagging," a counselor and former policewoman tells Shukan Jitsuwa. "If parents really want to protect their kids, they should eat together, talk together and do the things that build up a strong parent-child relationship built on trust. There're plenty of other matters parents should think about before making their kids cram school lessons that run until late at night."

Mekugi
31st July 2003, 09:25
Interesting Peter.

However, I am not alone in thinking that there have been crimes against children for AGES....it's just that people are finally waking up. Remember that guy that walked into a school yard in Osaka and murdered a bunch of children with a knife? How about the teenager from Tokyo that tied a girl up in his basement and was raping her for three weeks, until she started to "stink" and he killed her. Or maybe the homeless man in Tokyo that was beaten to death. Or, here is one that didn't get on the news....a five year old boy was molested and beaten by an older kid in Nagoya. The five year old's anus was severly ripped open from the older boy sticking things inside of him, such as bottles and pencils. He was caught doing this and after that, I have no idea what happened to him. This came from a friend of mine that is a teacher down here.

There are more, they just aren't as sensational. Ohh, on the opposite sid of the coin, there was a homeless man beasten to death by schoolkids as well, or how about the little girl that had her arms cut off by her father (alive and well, now leading a normal life...that was like 45 years ago...)

Hmm....

-Russ

Vapour
1st August 2003, 14:28
1. I really think you are making very dubious claim when you say lot of Japanese claim Japan to be crimeless. Obviously, I'm not you so I can't prove you never met quite few people making such false claim but we do call some people like asida kim to be fraud without never meeting him because his claim is just not plausible. I wouldn't go as far as accuse you of liying and more inclined to think that your misquoted due to language skill or making bit of exaggeration out of flustration. Large number of people claiming their society to crimeless is not so plausible anywhere (well may be in North Korea). All you have to do is switch on TV or pick up newspaper.

2. As of you denying making insinuation of many sucide being murder, Here is the quote. And you brought it up when we are discussing the validity of crime statistics.

"BTW...rape is a crime that tend to go under-reported. Car theft I never brought up, Murder you have a body....sometimes. Then there are the people that leave suicide notes and jump out of windows without showing ANY signs of depression or suicidal tendancies.....oh yeah that is not murder, that's normal."

3. As of rape crime being hate crime, you brought up some interesting point. I should point out that Domestic violence is a hate crime. Plus many racially motivated violence are committed by people who come from disadvantaged background. This doesnt mean only lower-class are racist or sexist. As some people point out, criminal come from all walks of life but statistically, poverty and social deprivation is major element in crimes including rape, child molestation AND domestic violence. This doesnt mean rich people do no commit crime including rape or child molestation. I'm again talking about statistics here. Just because you can pick few highly publicised cases where rape are committed by rich business man doesnt prove anything about overall tendency of crime itself. As far as perpetrator goes, they commit such crime because they do not respect other's liberty. Whether that manifest in phsycial violoation or sexual violation or property violation do differ in some degree but they tend to correlate. If someone is a violent criminal, he tend to steal, maim and rape. When a society has high crime rate, rate of sexual assult is also high and vice versa. Rape is a special crime from victim's poitn of view because of the problem of under reporting. It is not so unique from perpatrator's point of view.

4.
["As you probably know, overwhelming majority of rape including child molestation are committed by someone victim personally knows. For this reason, when attempting to assertain the extent of sexual assult, rather than trying to estimate the extent of underreporting which is near impossible,it is much common and accurate to estimate it from prevalance of other crimes and factor relating to crimes such as poverty."

By stating that it is impossible, then you are agreeing that the police records are in error, thus nullifying your previous statements regarding the "facts". Also, if it is much easier to report theft, how can you know because it is "impossible"? Are Are you trying to rationalize this or what? I am not sure that poverty is a factor in Japan- you don't hear about homeless people raping people at random all the time, but you do hear about the middle aged sicko or the gang of teens that decide to tie a girl up and rape her. Bullocks.]

Ahh, no. I must say my use of English is at fault here, I should have been clear on what I mean by counting, estimation and guesstimation, . I just stated the obvious that you can't *count* under-reporting. For this reason, you have to *estimate* (or more of guess) the extent of crime from other source such as rate of other violent crimes or other social statistics such as poverty when your focus is in particular location. From there you can guess the size of underreporting, however, such number is never as exact as murder statistics. So I I won't be albe to say much about difference of rate of sexual assult between say Japan and Singapore because statistics are too close to avoid margin of error, but that is not the case with U.S because of exceptionally high rate of other violent crime. Plus, with U.S. underreporting of rape could be higher becausee, in some high crime area, people rarely report crime including rape. You seems to think poverty makes no difference in rate of reporting. Unfortunately, that is not strictly true. Poverty and social deprivation do factor strongly in crime and in high crime area, people do tend to underreport crime.

I should also point out that this method works backward. Rather than trying to assertain the actual rate sexual assult from the reported rape cases then trying to adjust that figure with it's guess of underreporting, this method estimate (guesstimate) the overall extent of rape from other statistics so it completely ignore the reported rape statistics in it's estimation. Obviously, this could then in turn used to guess the extent of underreporting but reliability of figures goes down with each step of estimation, which explain this statment.

"However, it can not be used to to estimate the overall extent of crime itlsef nor one can argue that one paricular country's rate of sexual assult is higher than others based on extent of under reporting which is, at best, a guess."

I merely pointed out that you can't talk about overall rate of sexual assult from the reported case of rape though it doesn't mean estimation (guesstimation) of overall crime rate is not possible using other mean. This is actually academic issue in social statistics. I apologise if I wasn't clear.

4.

["And U.S. indeed have serious problem on this aspect. Now, it is true that these facts are often used by some people to put down U.S. or to insuniate that their society is somehow better."

Exactly how would you know? You ever live there? The crime is actually very low where I come from, but it appears high because 80%-90% of the crimes are reported. Incidently, we have a lower income bracket than most of the states in the USA...so the slum/poverty theory is moot. Don't compare countries.]

Ah, I don't know exact crime statistics of you state. However, I should point out that U.S. has rather ridiculously high rate of murder compared to Japan or for that matter any othere developed country. I just did google search.

http://www.safe-nz.org.nz/interstats.htm

Now as you can see, difference between Japan and U.S. is not in percentage difference. It is rather very large. And I assume other statistics of serious crime such as robbery, arson, serious assult or high value property crime such as automobile theft which are not affected by the problem of under reporting aren't that difference. I can of course look for it but I can't be bothered. It's true I never been to your place and I'm happy to accept your claim that your state is safer than other states but it can't be that different, can it? Because the rate of crime is just too high in U.S., it tend to neget your underreporting argument in term of safety between Japan and U.S. As I said, you bring out valid point. Unfortunately, you push your argument too far.

I might also suggest that your mis-perception result from the fact that crime and poverty are hihgly geographically segregated in U.S. not just in comparison to Japan but with other developed country. I do often hear that many part of u.s. are quite safe and bad things only happen in bad area.

4. Lastly, I should point to you that overwhelming number predator who commit physical and sexual violence against women and children are not stranger. That is why analysis of domestic violence is often starting point in understanding case of rape and child molestation. That is also another reason why I find the way media report rape and child predator to be hype. As far as this type of crime are concerened, what we need is more social workers not police. This doesn't mean child don't get kidnapped by stranger. It just that statistically, it is very rare occurence compared to much larger problem.

Striking Hand
1st August 2003, 21:25
Originally posted by Mekugi
Interesting Peter.

However, I am not alone in thinking that there have been crimes against children for AGES....it's just that people are finally waking up. Remember that guy that walked into a school yard in Osaka and murdered a bunch of children with a knife? How about the teenager from Tokyo that tied a girl up in his basement and was raping her for three weeks, until she started to "stink" and he killed her. Or maybe the homeless man in Tokyo that was beaten to death. Or, here is one that didn't get on the news....a five year old boy was molested and beaten by an older kid in Nagoya. The five year old's anus was severly ripped open from the older boy sticking things inside of him, such as bottles and pencils. He was caught doing this and after that, I have no idea what happened to him. This came from a friend of mine that is a teacher down here.

There are more, they just aren't as sensational. Ohh, on the opposite sid of the coin, there was a homeless man beasten to death by schoolkids as well, or how about the little girl that had her arms cut off by her father (alive and well, now leading a normal life...that was like 45 years ago...)

Hmm....

-Russ

You are not telling anybody anything new, EVERYBODY knows about those and similar crimes.

Just because you work with and know a few ingoramuses does not mean that the whole of Japan is like that.

Of course we are aware of the Osaka incidents and other, those are the times that we had the cops stationed at schools and creches in TOKYO and other Cities in Japan.

Still don't know where you get the impression from that Japanese think Japan is so safe and has/had no crimes.

If that were the case than why we got so many police, murder and famous thief stories in Japan.

Cheers.

P.S.: Do you know that the Kobe Killer will be released this Autumn?

Mekugi
5th August 2003, 02:14
Originally posted by Striking Hand


You are not telling anybody anything new, EVERYBODY knows about those and similar crimes.

Just because you work with and know a few ingoramuses does not mean that the whole of Japan is like that.

Of course we are aware of the Osaka incidents and other, those are the times that we had the cops stationed at schools and creches in TOKYO and other Cities in Japan.

Still don't know where you get the impression from that Japanese think Japan is so safe and has/had no crimes.

If that were the case than why we got so many police, murder and famous thief stories in Japan.

Cheers.

P.S.: Do you know that the Kobe Killer will be released this Autumn?

Well, I wonder how many crimes go un-reported? Apperantly there is a problem. Schoolteacher/child relations underwent a nice examination and the governing school body released a formal "information" project a year ago to several school districts, or at least down in Mie. Seems that there is so little crime against children going on that they are doing something about nothing? I guess everyone knows better but them eh!

Reported crime vs. Unreported crime...if a tree falls in the woods and no one is there to hear it....

-Russ

Striking Hand
5th August 2003, 02:33
Russ.

It is estimated that only about 40% of all crimes get reported and the figure gets higher for domestic crimes.

This holds true for ALL countries in the world.

Cheers.

Mekugi
5th August 2003, 02:46
Originally posted by Vapour
1. I really think you are making very dubious claim when you say lot of Japanese claim Japan to be crimeless. Obviously, I'm not you so I can't prove you never met quite few people making such false claim but we do call some people like asida kim to be fraud without never meeting him because his claim is just not plausible. I wouldn't go as far as accuse you of liying and more inclined to think that your misquoted due to language skill or making bit of exaggeration out of flustration. Large number of people claiming their society to crimeless is not so plausible anywhere (well may be in North Korea). All you have to do is switch on TV or pick up newspaper.

Not on track with the thread. Please start another thread.

Let me make clear NOT ALL Japanese, just a good portion of the ones I meet and do business with on a daily basis. Restated: "We have different experiences, the ones I have are not the same as yours." Get it?



As of you denying making insinuation of many sucide being murder, Here is the quote. And you brought it up when we are discussing the validity of crime statistics.
"BTW...rape is a crime that tend to go under-reported. Car theft I never brought up, Murder you have a body....sometimes. Then there are the people that leave suicide notes and jump out of windows without showing ANY signs of depression or suicidal tendancies.....oh yeah that is not murder, that's normal."

Not on track with the thread.
Look up the Yamaguchi family mafia and their trademark murder technique to see what I was referring to.


3. As of rape crime being hate crime, you brought up some interesting point. I should point out that Domestic violence is a hate crime. Plus many racially motivated violence are committed by people who come from disadvantaged background.

What? Who is talking about racism. I should have said "power" crime- this is my fault. There is no such thing as a hate crime EVERY crime is a hate crime, making the PC term "hate crime" a load of malarky.


This doesnt mean only lower-class are racist or sexist. As some people point out, criminal come from all walks of life but statistically, poverty and social deprivation is major element in crimes including rape, child molestation AND domestic violence.
This doesnt mean rich people do no commit crime including rape or child molestation. I'm again talking about statistics here. Just because you can pick few highly publicised cases where rape are committed by rich business man doesnt prove anything about overall tendency of crime itself. As far as perpetrator goes, they commit such crime because they do not respect other's liberty. Whether that manifest in phsycial violoation or sexual violation or property violation do differ in some degree but they tend to correlate. If someone is a violent criminal, he tend to steal, maim and rape. When a society has high crime rate, rate of sexual assult is also high and vice versa. Rape is a special crime from victim's poitn of view because of the problem of under reporting. It is not so unique from perpatrator's point of view.

Whatever. I disagree completely.




4.(scroll up I am not reposting it)

Well, you're changing your tune. I don't think your English was at fault. Your logic was, however- you seem to be able to explain yourself well enough for that not to be a problem here.

What happened to 5?


4.

["And U.S. indeed have serious problem on this aspect. Now, it is true that these facts are often used by some people to put down U.S. or to insuniate that their society is somehow better."

Exactly how would you know? You ever live there? The crime is actually very low where I come from, but it appears high because 80%-90% of the crimes are reported. Incidently, we have a lower income bracket than most of the states in the USA...so the slum/poverty theory is moot. Don't compare countries.]

Ah, I don't know exact crime statistics of you state. However, I should point out that U.S. has rather ridiculously high rate of murder compared to Japan or for that matter any othere developed country. I just did google search.

http://www.safe-nz.org.nz/interstats.htm



Not on track with the thread.
Start another thread if you wanna talk about this.


Now as you can see, difference between Japan and U.S. is not in percentage difference. It is rather very large. And I assume other statistics of serious crime such as robbery, arson, serious assult or high value property crime such as automobile theft which are not affected by the problem of under reporting aren't that difference. I can of course look for it but I can't be bothered. It's true I never been to your place and I'm happy to accept your claim that your state is safer than other states but it can't be that different, can it? Because the rate of crime is just too high in U.S., it tend to neget your underreporting argument in term of safety between Japan and U.S. As I said, you bring out valid point. Unfortunately, you push your argument too far.

Not on track with the thread.



I might also suggest that your mis-perception result from the fact that crime and poverty are hihgly geographically segregated in U.S. not just in comparison to Japan but with other developed country. I do often hear that many part of u.s. are quite safe and bad things only happen in bad area.

AGAIN not on track. This is not the subect.
However I can't resist:

You don't know that.
I grew up next door to some Welfare Projects and we had very little crime. My grandmother grew up dirt poor, none of her family were criminals and the people in her neighborhood were tight knit. Your stats don't match, mayan. There were more poor and underpriviledged people in the past then there are today in the USA and the crime rate was soaring during the "good times" in the 1980's.

If you wanna talk about this start another thread.


4. Lastly, I should point to you that overwhelming number predator who commit physical and sexual violence against women and children are not stranger. That is why analysis of domestic violence is often starting point in understanding case of rape and child molestation. That is also another reason why I find the way media report rape and child predator to be hype. As far as this type of crime are concerened, what we need is more social workers not police. This doesn't mean child don't get kidnapped by stranger. It just that statistically, it is very rare occurence compared to much larger problem.

How about starting with social and family values? You evidently have not had a great deal of experience with social workers. You don't want to go down that road. No one wants to be a ward of the state- this is coming from a person that was adopted (me).

-Russ

Mekugi
5th August 2003, 02:49
Originally posted by Striking Hand
Russ.

It is estimated that only about 40% of all crimes get reported and the figure gets higher for domestic crimes.

This holds true for ALL countries in the world.

Cheers.

75% of all statistics are wrong. ;)

-Russ

Striking Hand
5th August 2003, 03:07
Originally posted by Mekugi


75% of all statistics are wrong. ;)

-Russ

So what does that mean that your statistics fall into the 25% range and everybody elses into the 75% range??
:D

IMO, all statistic by default are flawed as they are done to proof/show a certain aspect and thus are not 100% objective.

Cheers.

Mekugi
5th August 2003, 03:22
Originally posted by Striking Hand


So what does that mean that your statistics fall into the 25% range and everybody elses into the 75% range??
:D

IMO, all statistic by default are flawed as they are done to proof/show a certain aspect and thus are not 100% objective.

Cheers.

For social statistics, proper interpretation and sampling is the key, methinks.

:p

Plus it's an old joke.


-Russ

Vapour
8th August 2003, 21:11
Opinions could differ but certain things are not plausible.

Many Japanese making claiming that Japan is crimeless is one of it.

I have to call you a bullshitter on that. You can disagree of course. ;)

Mekugi
9th August 2003, 02:16
True Youji samma! I want to make it clear that I am not saying all Japanese think that way. 'course not! How can everyone be the same as I say they are? This is a forum for B.S., so what the heck, we're kicking the peanut around.

Can I just call "one of the misguided good-ones?" ;) ya big thilly goose!

Excelsior!

-Russ



Originally posted by Vapour
Opinions could differ but certain things are not plausible.

Many Japanese making claiming that Japan is crimeless is one of it.

I have to call you a bullshitter on that. You can disagree of course. ;)