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tommysella
19th July 2003, 19:40
Hi all!

I'm using the JWP but it does not include this Kanji...Anyone knows what it means...?

Regards,
Tommy

Shizen
19th July 2003, 21:37
The left part looks like "ashi" (foot / leg), and the right part looks like an animal - not quite "uma" (horse). It might be "shika" (deer).

I know of a martial arts technique called "shika ashi" that involves a kicking motion much like a deer's forehoof kick.

Where did you see that kanji, Tommy?

tommysella
20th July 2003, 07:29
The romanji for this kanji is not "shika ashi", but just "ke"...

Regards,
Tommy

fifthchamber
20th July 2003, 17:12
Hi Tommy..
I found nothing resembling this Kanji in the Spahn and Kadaminsky "Kanji Dictionary"...And I think that all Japanese Kanji are listed in there...So....I went Chinese....
And found..."T'i" meaning "To kick"...I think that it might be an older Kanji or one actually used in a Chinese art/phrase?...But I can't say that the (Majority of..) Japanese would recognise this design...They more commonly use the "Shu/Shuku/Ke(ru)" Kanji for the "To kick" meaning....Keri for example...
But thats it anyway...Does that fit?
(Oh...It does combine the "Soku/Ashi" Kanji with that for "Eki" ("Divination") and "I/Yasa(shii)/Yasu(i)" meaning "Easy"...;) )
Regards...

tommysella
20th July 2003, 19:01
Well that makes sense to me...I already guest that it would have something to do with kicking :-)

And yes...it old japanese....

Regards,
Tommy

P Goldsbury
21st July 2003, 00:30
I think you need a monolingual kanji dictionary. The character is read as TOU and has the following meanings, in Kadokawa's "Dai-Jigen", p.1708. You would need Morohashi's "Dai Kanwa Jiten" (49,000 characters in 14 volumes) for a more detailed explanation, but it is in my office and today is a public holiday in Japan...

1. The basic meaning is tsumazuku = to make a false step; to lose one's footing, to meet with a setback.

2. 足を?Lばして伏す?BAshi wo nobashite fusu, which I understand as to lie prostrate with the legs stretched out.

Best regards,

PAG

----------

PS. Ben,

Hadamitzky & Spahn is very good, but I think the revised Nelson lists more characters, and both pale into insignificance by comparison with Morohashi (which is actually written in 'old' kanji). Have you not come across Morohashi?

tommysella
21st July 2003, 09:30
Actually, Peter, the Chinese translation ("to kick") Ben wrote fits better with the context...

Regards,
Tommy

fifthchamber
21st July 2003, 14:23
Hello Peter..
No...I have not. Although having said that, at the time that I picked up the Spahn/Kadaminsky book I think I was restricted by both costs and the size of the damn thing!!...Being a cyclist in London does not ALWAYS mean you can go faster than a car...And a weight like that meant I had to be careful on corners!!:rolleyes: ....14 Volumes!! "The horror, the horror....."
Is the Morohashi version likely to be on sale in bookshops here in the UK then? Surely it can't be cheap? And as my University is pathetic with "Proper University things" like GOOD KANJI DICTIONARIES I can only really go on my own steam...I would love a more "complete" listing, and although the ones I currently have are excellent for most modern and general Japanese perhaps a more specialised (i.e. with the older Kanji also) dictionary would be the perfect complement to them?....(Is it worth buying the collection essentially?..;) ).
I have an old Chinese dictionary and used that here...I can nearly always find odd Kanji in it...But not with the Japanese translations unfortunately...And some of the more subtle nuances have changed also.....14 volumes is a lot but thank you for the direction!
Regards.

P Goldsbury
23rd July 2003, 01:46
To Ben Sharples,

Hello Ben,

In my opinion, the two most indispensable monolingual Japanese dictionaries for a serious student of Japanese are Morohashi's Dai Kanwa Jiten and the Nihon Kokugo Daijiten. Morohashi is in 15 volumes (200,000 yen) and lists some 49,900 Chinese characters. Its aim is to list every character in the Chinese classics which are also used in Japanese. Since it is a character dictionary, the entries are organized according to the 214 radicals and the stroke order.

The Kokugo Daijiten is in 14 volumes (240,000 yen, including its own bookcase). The entries are arranged according to the AIUEO syllabary system. I also have a shorter one-volume edition, but I do not know whether this is in print.

As for the OED, both dictionaries owe their size to the vast store of quotations they contain, though I am not entirely sure whether they actually give the entire history of each character or word, as the OED purports to do.

Alas, the publishers of neither dictionary have the resources to issue on-line editions, but both dictionaries should be in the library of any self-respecting university department of Japanese.

Morohashi, especially, is indispensable. The character which started this thread is listed as No.37648 (Vol 10, p.932), with 4 different meanings, and the reading for one meaning is indeed keru. However, Morohashi cautions the reader not to confuse this character with another character No. 37700, which looks very similar, but has one more stroke. Clearly the mistake is often made, even with Japanese readers and I myself did so, giving the meaning of the second character, not the first.

Neither character is listed in Hadamitzky & Spahn or Nelson.

Best regards,

PAG

Earl Hartman
23rd July 2003, 02:02
Originally posted by P Goldsbury


Morohashi is in 15 volumes (200,000 yen) and lists some 49,900 Chinese characters....The Kokugo Daijiten is in 14 volumes (240,000 yen, including its own bookcase).




Gulp......49,900 characters? 29 volumes?? A total of 440,000 yen??? Needs its own bookcase????

I thought I was a fairly serious student of the language with my trusty Nelson's and my wife's two single volume Japanese dictionaries. Guess not.

(I do have the "Modern Kyudo Terminology Dictionary", though.....:D )

P Goldsbury
23rd July 2003, 02:23
Well, to keep things in proportion, how often does one need to use the big OED? I have a CD-ROM version and use it about twice a year on average. But I often use the 2-volume Shorter OED.

For general purposes, I often use the Kojien, which is also on CD-ROM, and a smaller one-volume kanji dictionary called Dai Jigen, published by Kadokawa. Then there is the 'Green Goddess': Masuda's Japanese-English dictionary, published by Kenkyuusha and shortly to be updated with a new edition. Hadamitzky & Spahn and also the revised Nelson are also very good, but for serious translation work I find I need something larger.

Best regards,

PAG

Earl Hartman
23rd July 2003, 03:05
Yeah, the Green Goddess. I've still got the 4th Editon from 1974 (collector's item, maybe?:D).

Since I don't do literary translation, and almost all of the stuff I do is concerned with the semiconductor industry, the vocabluary is fairly limited and quite repetitive. Also, since it is so specialized, I need industry-related dictionaries anyway.

Guess I should start reading Soseki or something and get serious. Unfortunately, I seem to always get stuck on manga.

Notari Matsutaro by Chiba Tetsuya, a story about a big lug of a sumo wrestler, is stll one of my favorites, old as it is.

fifthchamber
23rd July 2003, 14:08
Hello Peter.
Thanks for the reply...Although for the types of usage I want 」1000 is pushing it a touch!!:eek:
Would you recommend Nelsons dictionary as a good supplement to the Spahn version then?...Or is one just as useful as the other?
The place to look for me here in London has always been SOAS, in Euston....A really great place to study I think....I will find out about the possibility of asking for use of their library maybe....Well worth it!
Thanks again for the post. Appreciated.
Regards.

P Goldsbury
24th July 2003, 05:07
Originally posted by fifthchamber
Hello Peter.
Thanks for the reply...Although for the types of usage I want 」1000 is pushing it a touch!!:eek:
Would you recommend Nelsons dictionary as a good supplement to the Spahn version then?...Or is one just as useful as the other?
The place to look for me here in London has always been SOAS, in Euston....A really great place to study I think....I will find out about the possibility of asking for use of their library maybe....Well worth it!
Thanks again for the post. Appreciated.
Regards.

Hello Ben,

I suppose H & S and Nelson complement each other. Once you have got used to the classification system, Hadamitzky & Spahn is very convenient for finding compound words where you do not know the first character of the word. The revised Nelson has a Universal Radical Index, such that if you know one radical in a character, you can use this to find the character.

Though I am not a professional translator, I do occasionally undertake translations of a literary nature, with old Japanese (i.e., Japanese in use before the characters were simplified). For this I occasionally need something like Morohashi, as a final check.

Best regards,

PAG