Sparring, Bujinkan, reality etc.. Oh yeah?

[MakotoDojo]

Ralph's recent event is on most of our minds, I say this as I look at the view count. We all may be wondering things about it and our own training, maybe not.. I am thinking some things, and these things I mention to my own students all the time, I would like to post them here for good debate.

Remember this is MY OWN OPINION. if yours is different, that's cool :cool:

I have a background in LOTS of sparring, lots of JKD and Muay Thai Bjj and stick sparring, many many many hours, including lots of real NHB, that means no protection, no rules, also my share of real fights as well. I say this only to lend some background on where I base my opinions.

I said once before that Ralph would win, but also that it would be AOC/JKD/Jun Fan etc.. And I was correct. What Ralph's guys and himself did was not Bujinkan ninpo/Budotaijutsu/Ninjutsu etc.. IN MY OPINION. Just my personal opinion..


Now I seen it said that he won and Ninjutsu is threat of winning LOL! Ok then all arts that win are doing Bujinkan ninjutsu? ;) (Just giving you a hard time buddy ;) )

But really, we all know what we all expect when someone says they are going to use Bujinkan budo/Ninpo. We expect the movement of the arts we are taught, uke nagashi, kihon happo type movement, rolls yoko aruki keri and ken kudaki etc. It is easy to see when someone moves if it looks like budo taijutsu or not. I personally, don't buy into the old well all movement is the same so it is all bujinkan BudoTaijutsu. It can be argued on one level, but is way off base on another level.

Now, this is really not about my Buddy Ralph, I have no beef with him at all or what he does, more power to him! I think Ralph is cool!:D

This post is about sparring and Bujinkan arts and reality etc..

I will say it here, and I expect some differing opinions and that's cool with me, these are just my opinions and have no value beyond that.

Sparring is NOT reality, and not even a good example of reality. the only aspect of sparring that is close to reality is that the opponent is fighting back. It is for that reason I feel sparring drills are good to experience, but there is a HUGE danger IMHO, in going to deep into it. I feel you will lose the art of the budotaijutsu, you will lose the art and you will lose your way and fall into a trap!

Let me explain. When people spar, it almost ALWAYS ends up looking like some sort of kickboxing, and wrestling. Why? Because those arts will allow you to WIN in that environment! I will get back to this in one moment...

look at how many jabs land in sparring. LOTS! And what happens? A person can take allot of Jabs hundreds! but if just one of those jabs were and eye shot, it would be over! Or soon over.. And you simply cannot argue this point, because if the eye shot gets in, there is no cross, no hook, no take down.. This has been proven over and over again. but seeing as you cannot hit the eye in sparring, you then develop many bad habits!

Now what am I talking about?

Well, lets say your training in BBTJ (bujinkan budo taijutsu)has taught you to be in just the right place to land an eye shot against a boxer and then follow up. But you try it in sparring, and the eye shot is now a jab, and instead of having a stunning effect, it instead has little effect and the guy comes in with a cross hook combo, in your quest to "win" you will do whatever you have to do now and you may start to doubt the effectiveness of BBTJ and feel the need to supplement it so you can "win" and "sparring"

You see when sparring becomes your "reality" your proving ground, you will naturally gravitate to those arts that win in sparring, kickboxing and wrestling. But there are many stories of kick boxers and wrestlers in REAL self protection situations that have lost, in this case meaning getting their buts kicked, going to jail, or hospital, or the graveyard, or maybe just losing the proper use of some body parts...

Here is an example, look at some koto ryu kata, lets take the idea of some metsubushi,followed by low line then high. Ok, we are out somewhere, lets say a restaurant and something happens, if we can't leave, then maybe a napkin or wallet or food or whatever to the eyes, followed by a boot tip to the nuts, then a whole body palm heel to under the chin and THEN escape or, pull out a weapon or make one using environment.

The key to "winning" there is kata and henka and awareness! Not sparring or weights etc...

Contrast that with a bjj friend of mine who at a bar with friends got into a fight, went to the clinch and went down and got mount, we was "basing out" when he took a Steele tip to the temple followed by a two person ass whuppin. Now this guy taped EVERYONE in sparring! What happened?

The simple fact is you CANNOT SPAR NINPO BBTJ! It won't work, because all you would do is not allowed, and what your left with don't work well with boxing gloves on and helmets and groin cups etc.. And if you keep on, you will see the weakness in BBTJ, meaning YOUR OWN IDEA there is a weakness and then get into mixing it with muay thai bjj greco and other arts that WIN in "sparring".

You will doubt the way hatsumi sensei is teaching, you will doubt your art etc.. And you will then be doing mixed martial arts in a black suit and having a bastard child:)

Shutos to the next and under the nose, bosshi kens to eyes ribs neck, shikan ken to face and adam's apple, kicks to joins tops of feet and groin and coccyx etc.. All these will have a much different effect than muay thai. jutaijutsu and daken that gets a lock and then with the whole body snaps it before anyone can tap is different than slowly putting on a submission so he can tap, and stopping after the tap!

Weapons!!!

Al kinds of things.

but ya know what? You can't have an ego... You can't be bullied into thinking of you don't spar your a wuss and your art don't work. You are then being lead around by the nose by the other team, and if you let that happen your art didn't fail you, YOU FAILED YOUR ART!

I love sparring, martial sport, the same way others like basket ball or golf.

But it is not reality and you cannot judge BBTJ by how it does in sparring. I do believe in training with progressive resistance when you can and with what you can, but as a supplement in the correct dosage.

Just my opinion once again, not saying I am "correct". Anyone agree, disagree?

[Noodles]

Everything you say matches my gut feelings on the matter- I agree with you entirely. A caveat, though, I have no formal experience in a sparring art-I admit that my perspective is kind of one sided. However, fooling around with my friends, some of whom have history in competition taekwondo, I've noticed many of the problems that you've mentioned. You just can't use many of the details and tricks that make what we study the effective method that it is while still avoiding injuring your partner.

I'll be interested to see what else others have to say about this.

[Tsujimoto]

Dude I am speechless! You just summed up what I have been pondering over for the past month or so since I recently stopped cross training in sparring related martial arts. It's like you reached into my brain and clarified all my thoughts for me, heh, very cool, thanks man :D So yes I agree with your opinions and trust them from my experience and your backround. What about anyone else?

[JamesGarcia]

I think what you said is technically right, but wrong in the big picture.

Sparring is not to be the focus of Bujinkan BuDo' Taijutsu, but used as a tool to instill certain skills.

It teaches intensity of an opponent trying to win that cannot be duplicated in one step sparring with friends, that is the first level.

It builds the awareness and creativity to deal with real time unplanned attacks from unknown positions. Reality is far stranger than teaching.

It tests your skills and blatently shows you your own weaknesses and what you didn't know you needed to work on ie... body movement, escapes to holds and locks, bad body posture or balance, lack of endurance or strength, impact recovery from strikes, etc...

Limits have to be placed for safety so most of the Kyu'sho attacks and strikes of our system have to be outlawed to bring out the intesity that can only come from competition. This being said, Sparring is not the focus but a necessary tool to build other skills and awareness, NOT technical skill. Manaka-san said that he thought Tameshi-giri should be one tenth of sword training, I think that is a proper ratio for sparring so as not to rely on the obvious dangerous habits that can arise from focussing on rule limiting sparring. Nonetheless it is necessary to teach intesity, In My Un-Humble Opinion.

Try doing Ju'-Taijutsu without any Atemi and see if you truly understand Kuzushi... Go ahead, try it.

[MakotoDojo]

Originally posted by JamesGarcia

Try doing Ju'-Taijutsu without any Atemi and see if you truly understand Kuzushi... Go ahead, try it.

I have and I do :)


I do believe in training with progressive resistance when you can and with what you can, but as a supplement in the correct dosage.


To quote myself, I already said I spar and believe in resistance training i.e. the guy ights back.

Sounds like we agree to me..

[R Erman]

I feel resistance training and randori are very integral to effective skill building--I know this is no news to most of you:)

If you look at some of the research of martial scholars you see feudal-period schools involved in inter-school competitions which formed the basis for the shiai of modern judo. Many samurai supplemented their jujutsu training with sumo to get a resistance base to apply their jujutsu. This is the way of it, historically.

Practicing so-called 'judo-like' randori is one of the best attribute developers you can do for classical jujutsu/taijutsu, regardles of emphasis on atemi. If you can effectively randori/grapple/wrestle/roll with other skilled individuals w/o striking, then how much more effective will you be in the real-world when you can utilize those other tools? And I don't believe the "develop bad habits" excuse many who do not spar espouse.

I know Rick has heard this as it is a very common SBG allusion, but who will finger jab more effectively, a boxer who learns to open his hand, or the 'deadly martial art' student who only practices his finger strikes in a static environment and has no idea what it feels like to face off with someone moving around and trying to take your head off? That's kinda a loaded question, but the point is valid.

Does sparring look like a real fight? Not always. I primarily spar two ways. The first way is either just grappling or grappling and striking like you normally see in different schools. This can be very intense, but still focuses alot on really getting good at positioning and dominating, before finishing(whether standing or ground). The second is more scenario-based with verbal taunts and sucker punches(or rage attacks).

This second method is very close to real fighting. These exchanges are over alot quicker than regular randori(normally anywhere from 5-30 seconds, unless there is a lot of protective equipment, then we go longer). It's very explosive, balistic, and brings about alot of the psychological conditions of a real encounter. It's more controlled in a sense, because it involves role-playing, but it's also more intense and more dangerous, because of the adrenal stress, and the fact that the bad guy is fighting back, and the good guy doesn't always win. Ironically, this second method, although quicker, wears you down alot more, and shows why being in shape(gasp) is important.

I know not that's not a booj-specific response, but those are my apples.

[Kamiyama]

I have enjoyed this post..
Very well done and a great subject..

I feel there are a lot of sheep hiding behind the fence watching the wolves...(dancing around with their smiles... freely and hungry..not for sheep but for truth) and pondering how to react to this post..

Well a new week ahead of us shall bring out some new watches.. from the fence line.. and maybe some new wolves too..

Very good Rick..

I wish I was younger with more bite than bark now days.. but I still like to have a sheep from time to time.

kamiyama, ralph severe

[MakotoDojo]

Ralph your craking me up:)

Rob,

that is very true about the jab VS eye jab thing, the reason boxers can land a jab is the way they train the jab, focus mitts and sparring, top and bottom bag etc... However, we must agree that a LANDED eye jab has a different effect than a landed jab...


I know you know I train with resistence and spar, but what I am getting at in this thread, is that I feel that putting sparring as the "reality environment" in which you base opinions on if training methods or techniques work or not, is not the best idea IN MY OPINION.

Like if sparring was the ultimate reality for you, then many kata and waza like uke nagashi for example might get thrown out cause they don't work in sparring, and the idea of kata would be done away with cause it is not alive etc...

I posit that kata training and henka (basically what hatsumi sensei has been teaching) is the best way to get ready for real life and sparring is a good supplemnt in the correct dosage.

This does not mean that I do not spar or train with resistence.. ;)

Also when I DO spar, I do not use boxing or muay thai, instead I use the waza listed in the ten chi jin, and when I do ne waza having the back ground in bjj, 12 years now, I now try to take ninpo waza and use them in situaton where I used to use Bjj.Example know from bjj what to do to stall the triangle, I then go for the bite and skin rip etc or weapon and if it don't work (which it usually does) I fall back on basic bjj to get out. The best gaurd pass in the world is base out, get posture and attack the groin inner thigh and get away, no need to know and practice the hundred's of ways to pass when he does this or that trying to go to side mount etc.. I don't need to go to side mount or mount:) I just need to escape or get up and get a weapon (which I always have on hand or can use from my environment)

You see Ninpo was never about (I don't mean to sound like I am preaching to anyone) being the biggest strongest fighter, it was about living to the next day, and knowing that some situations and people are more than you can handle mano a mano . So use cunning, stealth, tricks, weapons, environment etc...

If you look at how hatsumi sensei teaches, you will see first comes awareness and kamae, then taisabaki with kamae then the idea of suki. So, be aware of your surroundings and the danger, lean kurai dori well, then understand sabaki gata and then the freedom you have at hand to save yourself and exploit the attackers suki and then go!

If the biggest baddest NHB person in the world attacked me on the street, it would NOT be my experience in NHB that saved me! First the rules of engaement have changed. I can always leave, get in my car or a house, ask other people for help, pull out my 9mm or have my wife use hers. use any one of the blades Ihave handy or other surprises. get into a building whatever. Next, I will use the environment placing something between us as we call for help on the cell.

if it does come to blows any of the weakpoints he has will be under massive assult with any advantage I can muster and as soon as I can escape I will.

In sparring however, you can't "win" that way and it breeds in the person the cock fighter mentality, the dueling mentality the gladiator mentality...

Comments?

[tenchijin2]

It's tough, on the screen, to see the balance and proportion you're discussing between 'sparring' (or resistance drills) and kata (I'll include any henka in the term as well).

I personally will never be the biggest badass around. My training has to be a balance of keeping myself healthy and being realistic about who I am. Sometimes that's easier than other times. I try to push my perception as far as I can during training. I try to be well rounded in my skills of 'fighting'.

So to me, training technique... mechanics, is the main point. Secondarily (not in importance, but in time spent) is dealing with pressure. Learning to find the suki amidst the ran. But even then, I really liked your theory on situational awareness being the first priority. Because you can't let yourself be confined to a gaming perspective. "Thinking outside the box" is the way I have interpreted Hatsumi sensei's ideas.

Bottom line is, we all do the best we can, if we can only be HONEST to ourselves. Some people would benefit from more resistance in training, some should probably back off and see the 'big picture'.

Who am I to say any of these people are 'sheep'? We're all just humans, right?

[chris friedman]

Sparring is not reality and kata training is?

[MakotoDojo]

Originally posted by chris friedman
Sparring is not reality and kata training is?

If your asking me, then my answer is nope. Neither is reality in my PERSONAL opinion. Each however I feel allow one to train/experience aspects of reality. No one really knows how they will do in a life and death encounter, we all do our best...



Bottom line is, we all do the best we can, if we can only be HONEST to ourselves. Some people would benefit from more resistance in training, some should probably back off and see the 'big picture'.


Right on!

Ya know for me, one other thing to consider is that it is all a process and what you feel SO STRONGLY at one time will change! It's the path of self discovery. Your body changes, your life situation changes, you understanding changes, your goals change etc...

All this, nothing but path notes...

Know what I mean?

[Akaoni]

Ya know for me, one other thing to consider is that it is all a process and what you feel SO STRONGLY at one time will change! It's the path of self discovery. Your body changes, your life situation changes, you understanding changes, your goals change etc...

In some of our cases, these things change frequently, back and forth, right? ;)

I have found pressure training/randori/sparring to be very beneficial in the past year or so. Isolating certain skills against pressure (e.g. escapes, evasions, entering against a striker, grappling for position when standing or on the ground, attempting to apply a joint manipulation or blood constriction against someone who doesn't want that to happen, kicks vs. kick defense, hands vs. hand defense, counterstriking, counterkicking, muto-dori, etc.) has been especially helpful. This type of training has, IMO, helped me in the following ways, among others:

*perception training (visual & tactile): seeing the difference between a right hand coming in or a left hand, straight or circular attack, vertical, horizontal, or diagonal, etc. In close combat where part of my body is touching part of the opponent's body, the ability to feel whether they are going to hit me (or stab me, whatever), kick me, overhook, neck clinch, underhook, bear hug, tackle, shoot for the legs, etc.
*flow or nagare: if you don't flow in dealing with a continuous attack, you are toast; if you don't flow in offense against someone who is actively defending, you will be read like a book
*defensive skills: these need continual polishing, and one-step, two-step, and three step sparring (such as two-person kata) doesn't cut the mustard (at least in my case, it led to some very poor defensive skills). Anybody can be hit by a sucker punch or surprise attack, but if we survive that, defensive skills would be nice to have if the attacker presses his attack (a good assumption, IMO).
*dynamic timing, dynamic distancing, dynamic angling, dynamic positioning
*dynamic movement of feet, knees, hips, spine, shoulders, elbows, etc.


So to me, training technique... mechanics, is the main point. Secondarily (not in importance, but in time spent) is dealing with pressure. Learning to find the suki amidst the ran. But even then, I really liked your theory on situational awareness being the first priority. Because you can't let yourself be confined to a gaming perspective. "Thinking outside the box" is the way I have interpreted Hatsumi sensei's ideas.

Sparring is not biomechanical efficiency training per se, but can be used as such by slowing down the tempo! Kihon and kata (or one/three-step sparring), when trained properly, is training for increased efficiency and better mechanics. Randori/isolation sparring can be used for efficiency training as well, when done at low intensity/tempo. When we lower the pressure, we can focus more on posture, alignment, exact distance and angling. When we turn up the pressure (increasing the tempo, intensity or number of variables), we can see how much or how little these things fall apart.

I also agree with situational awareness being the overriding priority, but have never trained for this, only been lectured and quizzed on it (mostly as part of a University self-defense course). If there are effective ways to *train* for such awareness, I would be interested to know about them! As for physical skill training, we each have to decide which gets first priority, effectiveness or efficiency, and train accordingly. I think coach Scott Sonnon of ROSS/RMAX has some cogent thoughts on the matter:

http://www.amerross.com/nature.html

Matt Thornton and Burton Richardson have also written some thought-provoking material relating to such issues. Of course Rick is familiar with them ;)

Cheers,
Garth Lynch

[MakotoDojo]

I also agree with situational awareness being the overriding priority, but have never trained for this, only been lectured and quizzed on it (mostly as part of a University self-defense course). If there are effective ways to *train* for such awareness, I would be interested to know about them!

Go here for some neat ideas.

http://www.tonyblauer.com/

I can write more latter regarding some drills I have come up with.

here is one idea. Everyone says to run if faced with a knife (if you can right?) But how many practice that. Set up a situation room, or train in an out door environment or whatever, pad up so you can really go all out, this is just to get the stress level high so we get the adrenal dump etc.. next have a few people around ready to go, assign some people to be bad guys or one bad guy, have weapons like air soft guns, or knifes or plastic ball bats whatever and set your self a task.

Example, I will go to the counter to check out, or get in my car or whatever. now have someone attack you and practice escaping/running away as first option, know the exits etc... then go from there.

It matters not if your technique is good, what yopu want is the bad guy/guys to REALLY get you and not stop for at least 2 mins or until you escape. What you can train like this, is the dump I mentioned ealier and getting used to it. Noticing small signs as to who the bad guy/s are/is, where the exits are, improvised weapons, environmental weapons, use of bystandards.

Also, have a cell phone? You can add calling a friend reletive to pretend your calling police, can you get the call off before you die? can you remember details of the attacker? etc...

[Kamiyama]

I disagree and agree.. with ‘Sparring is not biomechanical efficiency training’.
I feel sparring does in fact cut through the BS of what you are told is truth and from sparring you find your truth.
Truth here is used for biomechanical efficiency.
Nothing was said about the speed of the tempo of sparring. I would state that all speeds of tempo can be used by the user in sparring against another partner without the knowledge of their partner knowing it. Creating the find broken rhythm that I called.. combative nature.
Here the feeling of is referred to, as bio-efficiency can be understood without setting the rules of speed of the sparring between the partners of the game. Much like soccer.
I agree training slower does open new paths of understanding.. but cannot be a sub for natural broken rhythm of a conflict.
I believe the focus of posture, angling, etc.. can be understood by slowing the training drills down a great deal and lowering the fear pressure. This I agree on totally.
I do know that weaponry sparring throws out almost 90% of the BS of drills once you go at a natural pace during sparring. This is where the kata goes right out the hidden door.
In the end you can swim slow or you can swim fast..
But the important thing is you have to match the speed of the game and over come it to fit into the grove on the time.

I bet what I said is a little confusing.. I see too many areasto chat about at once and find it hard to put into words..

But Rick has posted a very good subject..

kamiyama, ralph severe

[R Erman]

Originally posted by MakotoDojo


Go here for some neat ideas.

http://www.tonyblauer.com/



I just thought I'd reinforce this. Blauer is the man for the psychology of combat, verbal de-escalation, and tactical awareness/combat training. Just about any one of his videos will give you a lot to think about and incorporate. Great thing is he's not trying to push a style of movement. He has no interest in validating or bashing style, lineage...etc.

[tenchijin2]

Ralph, that is some of the most clear writing you've ever done.

As far as weapon sparring, I've noticed that I fall back on basic kihon, and that really strong nagare and pressure pays off. Having good taihen and footwork helps, too. I think many of the kata are just learning models to get you thinking of more than just one thing at a time. They also teach you many good intellectual or strategic things.

One criticism though, is that most people practice weapons kata with no 'life'. You can just see that it is rehearsed, or memorized.


Originally posted by Kamiyama


I bet what I said is a little confusing.. I see too many areasto chat about at once and find it hard to put into words..

But Rick has posted a very good subject..

kamiyama, ralph severe

[Kamiyama]

My ideas about taihenjutsu..
I approach footwork much like I approach any other attribute development program.
I just do it. But it’s hard to keep up years of just doing it.
This gets boring and lifeless. Almost to the point of forgetting about doing it if you know what I mean.
I mainly look at the attribute that is in question, what I need to work on, and go down a path of experience.
If this experience is not paying off I find a new one by books or tapes or by asking around.
For me the only way it seems that I can get in training for my feet, ankles, calfs, knees, hips for footwork is to dance.
This by itself can scare the people out of the room. So I do it alone with music. Mainly ACDC.
I move with the rhythm and find my pace.. break the pace and find what is real for what I’m looking for and what I’m looking for is skills to move such a large frame.
I do not spend time with bob and weave type drills. I find then not very street wise for me personally. But I mainly work on bridging the gap or as many call it in sword play ‘ taking the initiative’.
This comes through just standing off one and half steps from the wooded dummy and playing at what I can do to reach it with what I feel is correct speed that will catch my foe off guard or cause him to step back as I step in.. really to catch time. Then I ad a trap to the drill then a trap to a hit.. then a trap to a hit-hit-hit.
From this I carry the idea to the bag.. and do the same but use more of a cross stepping motion to reach the foe.. and then ad a cross with the step.. then after the cross another hit..
Really simple.. but works for me..
Taihenjutsu is important..
But it has to be done..
Then I take this to the football field.. and play soccer.
The sideways motion and being very lite on my feet help a great deal.
But also I find sparring to be a very good path too for over all feel of timing and distance with a live friend.
Aliveness..is a very hip word these days with some of the gurus.. but really it's a very old word with life.. so nothing new.. for the living.

ok
kamiyama, ralph severe