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Shitoryu Dude
21st July 2003, 20:33
Time for one of my "Men's Rights" rants - this is a topic that has been stewing with me for quite some time (around the age of 12 or so is when this first started to bug the hell out of me).

One of the more common myths and misperceptions we men get saddled with is that women are more mature at a younger age and that guys never grow up while women are so far ahead of us in this area that we never, ever catch up unless we get married, have kids, etc. Of course, at that point we need to be nagged constantly or we would forget how to take the trash out and would wear drawers with skid marks. To me this has always been the biggest line of BS ever perpetuated.

Women get an early start on puberty and quickly jump to the "clucking like hens stage" and remain there forever. Two years later the guys get the same blast of hormonal development and quickly reach par with the girls and then just keep on going. Men, after all, know that they need to accomplish some serious things in their lives if they are going to enjoy it. It used to be that a man had to marry a piece of ass if he was going to be able to indulge himself on a regular basis. That quickly meant babies as well since birth control was either unavailable, immoral, or illegal. Well, things have changed quite a bit since then, but for some reason the PC feminists are quite upset that the freeing up of society has also worked for men as well.

Men no longer have to get married to maintain a regular sex life, and remaining single actually enhances said sex life anyway. Since they are focusing on such things as careers, hobbies, retirement savings, toys, and other subjects of interest to men, they are NOT getting married on the same schedule that women want. The latest "men are immature" campaign focused on the fact that women are not getting it all on their terms, so it is the fault of men (still).

A brief rundown on the priorities (in no particular order) of the sexes is in order to see how this all works.

Women:

Shoes
Babies
Spending money (shopping)
Vacations
Maid Service
Decorating the house
More Shoes
Handbags
Cosmetics
Oprah
Clothing
Losing 5 dress sizes by Monday
More shoes, again
Whining
Nagging
Sex with ski instructor while on "separate vacations"
Avoiding all household chores that are "sexist"

Men:

Career
Retirement
Investments
Education
Buddies
Toys
Nice home
Hobbies
Regular access to sex
Leisure time

As you can easily see, the female definition of male maturity is aquiescing to female demands (slavery). The latest vomit spewed forth by womyn is that men cannot be mature without a marriage, babies, and a wife who does not work. You will notice that female priorites are all about spending the money and not making any of it.

Having spent a large portion of my life as a bachelor I have "dated" women ranging in age from 16 to 50+. With very few exceptions most of these women behaved pretty much in the exact same way - as if they were 16, only used to having more cash to blow. The older ones talk about the same subjects as the outright girls do, but only in a more sophisticated manner - its still the same old story though. Guys get over this stage pretty quickly, after all, they have to support themselves for the rest of their lives.

Men have discovered that they don't need a wife to cook and clean (they are quite capable of doing all that themselves or hiring a maid), that their money goes far further when they manage it by themselves, their living space if much more comfortable and suited them, and that they don't have to put up with children unless they want to. Oddly enough, the women's lib movement has made men far happier in many respects while women are getting mighty torqued off about the whole situation. Women are told from a young age that they can, and should, "have it all". This translates into working marginally for a few years so they can feel good about themselves, then finding "Mr. Right" (who is rich), popping out a few babies, and then perhaps working for charity later on when they feel bored. They are, of course, expected to be taken seriously about their opinions of workplace inequities. That men are not following this game plan is not to be allowed.

Next time you feel pressure to "get married and settle down", ask yourself what is in it for you? Typically there is no payoff for a man to get married anymore; you will soon be supporting three or more people on a paycheck that formerly supported just one. Your assets will be attached, and if you get divorced (50/50 chance) your income will be devastated even further in child support payments (may or may not be your kids). Setting yourself up for that is a sign of maturity? More like a sign of insanity.

End of rant. You may now return to your normally scheduled screwed up life.

:beer:

Cady Goldfield
21st July 2003, 20:51
Come on, Harv. You've posted this before. I recognize the "sex with ski instructor" selection on the list. ;)

Women and men can be equally immature at any stage of life. Women, however, sometimes get forced to grow up faster because they're usually the ones stuck with the pregnancy... while the guy can take off and disappear.

As for women's priorities vs. women's, you seem to have left out these for the men's list:

-Zipless sex
-Beer can collection
-Beer
-Zipless sex
-Comedy Central
-ESPN
-The tv/vcr remote
-Zipless sex
-Expensive sports cars ("Penis-Extensionmobiles")
- Porn mags and videos (when ZS is unavailable)
- Comic books
- Anime
- Computer games
- Zipless sex
- Belching and farting contests with "the guys"
- Hair transplants or weaves
- Guns ("mine's bigger")
- Expensive electronics
- Zipless sex
- Whining and complaining about how hard it is to find "normal, emotionally stable" women who want zipless sex without commitment

Shitoryu Dude
21st July 2003, 21:02
But, those are all "toys" :D And men don't whine, bitch and moan near as much as women do.

Women wouldn't be having babies and driving off their men if they would follow a couple of very simple rules:

No babies before married for 5 years
Babies are all planned ahead of time by both parents

"Ski instructor" is easily replaced by tennis instructor, boss, former boyfriend, bar pickup, dance instructor, coworker, pool boy, bartender, UPS man, etc. Happens all the time and is becomming more and more frequent as DNA testing is bearing out.

:beer:

Cady Goldfield
21st July 2003, 21:12
That's right, they're toys. Toys dominate the men's priority list! :D

And what men might lack in whining, they make up for in obnoxious pontificating, control-freakism, and inability to handle the ego-bruising task of asking for assistance or direction, so that they bring disaster upon themselves and their hapless date.

They also have memories like a steel sieve. They leave the baby atop the SUV in its child-carrier (where they left it while loading golf clubs in the trunk) and drive off, or come back from the grocery store with a three-week supply of frozen pizza, Milk Duds and tacos, but forget the bread, milk and laundry detergent -- the only three items that sent them to the store in the first place.

And, they will not part with the rank, stinking, filthy running shoes that helped them win the 3K road race 5 years ago, and insist on wearing same to the movies, during which time the entire row in front and behind gets up and moves because they think someone has thrown up on the floor next them.

And you wonder why women have to nag?

:D

Shitoryu Dude
21st July 2003, 21:24
Women are also far more likely to leave those darling babies they wanted in the SUV so they can be cooked to death. Or just murder them outright....

Skanks are skanks - neither men nor women have any claim on being cleaner than the other (women who don't shower or wash their hair are common, but not as common as those who don't change their tampons/sanitary napkins often enough). Ditto with control freaks. You "could" toss the skanky shoes in the wash......

If you want something done, do it yourself - or did you get married to have a slave around the house you can verbally abuse?

And what is it to you what he eats? Have you been appointed to be his "mommy"? Get over yourself.

Are we done with the cliche's yet?

:beer:

Cady Goldfield
21st July 2003, 21:27
<b>Are we done with the cliche's yet?</b>

Dunno, bud. You're the one who started them!

Shitoryu Dude
21st July 2003, 21:34
Call it a three decade observational statement. :p I'm rebutting the cliche's, not adding to them.

:beer:

glad2bhere
21st July 2003, 21:35
I suppose this is all in good fun. It wouldn't be much of a world if we couldn't laugh at ourselves. All the same, I was having a discussion with my wife one evening about the up-coming "for men only" channel on cable (formerly TNN) and we both wondered out loud why the approach to relationships between men and women always had to be characterized in such pedestrian terms. Guys are repeatedly portrayed as insensitive boors and the women routinely get painted as coniving free-loaders. Guys can routinely be manipulated by an appeal to their sexual appetites and women can likewise be manipulated by an appeal to security sustained by wealth and power.

We have tried to watch some of the media stuff that portrays relationships as recreation and agree between us that we don't recognize ourselves in the people represented nor do we know anyone whole would come close.

After visiting a local Hapkido school I would sometimes go out for beers afterwards and listen to the various people complain about men/women and their foibles. Nobody ever made a bid for understanding, tolerance or patience. It kinda left me wondering what the point of all that MA training was. After all you don't have to have much of a Character to piss and moan mindlessly, and since MA training is about developing Character I was kind of at a loss to figure where all this was going. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Cady Goldfield
21st July 2003, 21:38
Heck, Bruce. Harvey and I were having fun lobbing stink bombs back and forth, and you have to come along all logical and rational and stuff. Who asked ya??? :p

Shitoryu Dude
21st July 2003, 21:51
Yeah, go back to being caring and supportive. I'm at least halfway serious about this and Cady just loves a good argument. Besides, she's one of the few women that all this crap doesn't really apply to, so she gets to hammer away at me on it.

Where is William Tai anyway?

:beer:

Cady Goldfield
21st July 2003, 21:56
Bruce, if you wanna stay all compassionate and sensitive-like, go elsewhere. If you want to learn how to be a cynical, one-sided, needs-a-clue, head-in-the-sand bigot like Harvey, though, you can stick around and take lessons from him. He's a pro.

:look:

Senjojutsu
21st July 2003, 21:56
You will notice that female priorites are all about spending the money and not making any of it.
Harvey,

Are you saying that you feel womyn are only interested in the size of a man's, eh wallet? - and that male looks, hair, personality, and organ size are secondary considerations. That when you get right down to it, men are the romantics regarding love and it is the womyn who are the manipulative, calculating ones of the sexes?

Say it ain't so.

Next you will try to tell me that successful feminist womyn always seem to find more affluent power males, i.e., Jane Fonda marries Ted Turner, or if they get untimely widowed, say Katie Couric, they never do see to find true love with the local electrician or plumber, do they?

Then let's try a definitive litmus test question for Cady.
How do you feel about alimony for any female under the age of fifty (coming to age post feminism rise)? Isn't the whole concept alimony a backward thinking legacy of the law?

You know "alimony"; as divorce lawyers will say in the hallways. It is the screwing you guys are getting, for the screwing that you did. Paying hay for a dead horse so to speak.

Cady Goldfield
21st July 2003, 22:04
Alimony? Whichever (ex-)spouse is incapable of supporting her/himself without assistance as a result of the marriage's dissolution, that's who should get alimony. If both are working and independent, there is no need for alimony.

Anyone who has sacrificed earning ability and skills in order to marry and care for another person and household, is entitled to some assistance should that relationship end, and the person find him/herself on the streets with no means of supporting him/herself. Alimony should at least see the person through job training, "rehab" and resettlement until he/she can get back on his/her feet/

Alimony's purpose of yore was to provide the woman with the wherewithal to survive, since she did not have parity in the workplace or education and likely had to forego job skills training or education in order to marry, raise children and run a household for a man.
In these modern times and in this country, that is no longer the case except among cults and special religious or immigrant-ethnic communities where women still are directed into marriage and childbearing while the men earn the living.

glad2bhere
21st July 2003, 22:29
OK, OK. I get the point. If I promise to be quiet and let Harvey teach me how to make those noises with my armpit, can I stay? ;)

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Shitoryu Dude
21st July 2003, 23:34
Considering that more women these days have a college education than men do, in theory these women should just be able to pick up where they left off and not need a dime. As womyn also claim that they work just as much as any man does (or even more!!), and studies have shown that women are paid the same as men for actual hours worked and job experience, then womyn should be paying men alimony in many cases.

Once again, good proof that in most cases marriage is a bad idea and kids are an even worse one. Unless you want to spend a decade or so paying "child support" for a kid that has a 1/7 chance of not being yours that you never get to see anyway.

Sorry, I never bothered to learn the noisy armpit gig - I was too busy working on massive stinkbomb farts and earshattering belches. :D

:beer:

pgsmith
21st July 2003, 23:58
Harvey,
You seriously need to look for women in other places man. Either that, or stop being attracted to bimbos only. It's got to be one or the other. Sure, I know some women that fit your discriptions. Then again, I know some men that do too! I have more women as friends that aren't anything like your idea of what women are like. Stereotypes of any kind are a bit irritating. Those that you are trying to foist on women as a group would get you pounded by some of the women I know! But then again, a couple of those are quite sexy so you might enjoy getting beaten by them. ;)

Cheers,

Shitoryu Dude
22nd July 2003, 00:14
I don't think my wife would appreciate me looking for women anyplace other than around the house :D

Tell you what, nearly all of her friends are college educated and nearly all of them have dropped out of the workforce. The only ones that haven't are either single or Asian - they aren't bimbos (well, one of them is). The shoe fits, wear it.

:beer:

Cady Goldfield
22nd July 2003, 02:16
There actually are quite a few men who want their wives to stay at home while they are the sole income earner. They want the woman to cater to them, take care of the house, have and raise kids, be the social planner and bookkeeper. IOW, a homemaker.

Even in this day and age, that old traditional pattern still exists. Nothing wrong with it - neither the woman at home nor the man wanting to be the income winner. It's a business partnership in a sense.

Shitoryu Dude
22nd July 2003, 04:27
That is fine if that is what both of them want. I know a fair number of men who have had the old bait and switch pulled on them. After all, you can't force someone to go to work if they don't want to. And if they already have a kid they claim is yours, then you might was well just stick it out and hope it doesn't get any worse.

Still, this does nothing to address the main focus of the thread: Women are not more mature than men - they just think they are because men don't act as they want them to and they ridicule anything that they want to go away.

:beer:

Cady Goldfield
22nd July 2003, 14:55
For all your "bait and switch" buddies, I could tic off an equal number of lazy-drunken-bum husbands whose wives carry the load of raising the children, tending house and cleaning up after the big slob on the couch.

Why don't we pair the leech girls with the lazy-bum boys, and call it a day? :rolleyes:

Shitoryu Dude
22nd July 2003, 15:47
I think they usually find each other eventually.

:beer:

Cady Goldfield
22nd July 2003, 16:36
As my mother says, "The rocks in his head match the holes in hers." ;)

Chuck Munyon
22nd July 2003, 16:43
1) Bruce, armpit farts are only for wusses who can't produce real ones on demand.

2) Harvey, women do reach an entire series of intellectual, emotional, and physical developmental milestones faster than men do. This is, however, only relevent up until the late teens; after that it's anyone's ballgame. Other than that I think you're right on a few things and so wrong on some others as to be dangerous; more importantly, though, I think you're funny, and that's always counted for a great deal in my book.

3) Cady, you're the only reason I regret not going to Harvard. :D
(Actually, my girlfriend almost ended up going to Harvard/MGH for residency, at which point I would have been able to come visit regularly. Unfortunately for our chances of meeting face to face, I had to help talk her into UVA so as to help maintain her sanity)

Shitoryu Dude
22nd July 2003, 16:52
Shoes - the proof is in the shoes :D Anyone who has ever opened a woman's closet and seen more shoes than Nordstrom's knows exactly what I mean. :eek: Not that any of them have been worn more than once or twice or that she could have bought a new luxery car with what they all cost, but she'll always keep buying them.

:beer:

PS - I've always been dangerous. The question is "to whom?" :D

larsen_huw
22nd July 2003, 16:57
Hi guys,

As a mere 20 year old, my experience of women is very limited .... but then the women i've experienced have had a similar lack of experience with men.

I've been with my current g/f for almost 2 years now, and we seem to have reached a good arrangement. I can go play with my cars as much as i like, but once i come back and wipe the engine oil off my face, i have to pretend i'm a mature human being for a couple of hours. Then i get some action. Then we go to sleep.

It works for us. Maybe i found a goodun! She drinks as much beer as i do, pretends to be interested when i talk cars and her worst nightmare is not being able to have seperate social lives.

Cady Goldfield
22nd July 2003, 17:15
Originally posted by Chuck Munyon
2) [snip]Other than that I think you're right on a few things and so wrong on some others as to be dangerous; more importantly, though, I think you're funny, and that's always counted for a great deal in my book.

Being funny is Harvey's saving grace. And, while he may be a cynical misanthrope on the surface, deep down, he's... a cynical misanthrope. :D As for the dangerous part, we just have to hope that his wife monitors him constantly. :p


3) Cady, you're the only reason I regret not going to Harvard. :D
(Actually, my girlfriend almost ended up going to Harvard/MGH for residency, at which point I would have been able to come visit regularly. Unfortunately for our chances of meeting face to face, I had to help talk her into UVA so as to help maintain her sanity)

Phooey. You call that an excuse?! ;)
Well, when I get married next October, consider yourself (you and gf) invited. Boston is just a holler up the road from Philadelphia.

Shitoryu Dude
22nd July 2003, 18:12
Cynical Misanthrope SMASH!!!

Ever occur to you that my wife actually agrees with me on a lot of this stuff? :eek:

:beer:

Cady Goldfield
22nd July 2003, 18:16
Like my mom said... "The rocks in his head..."
(Grinning, ducking and running like hell!)

Margaret Lo
22nd July 2003, 18:37
Originally posted by Shitoryu Dude


Ever occur to you that my wife actually agrees with me on a lot of this stuff? :eek:

:beer:

Harvey,

Ever occur to you that your wife just lets you THINK that she agrees with you on a lot of this stuff? :eek:

M :D

PS Chuck, People like you better for not having gone to Harvard. :)

Shitoryu Dude
22nd July 2003, 18:43
Rocks are better than vacuum, which is what passes for a prefrontal lobe in most women under 35 :D

I'm going to stick with my original assertation: Women get a faster jump on maturity, but once they discover shopping for shoes it all comes to an end until they grow a moustache at 50. Boys start later and make up the difference by the time they get out of high school.

:beer:

kirigirisu
24th July 2003, 01:38
Lovely point you've got there, Harvey. Wish I was around when it started, but you've got everything down pat for the most part in regards to

(okay, now, for those of you with the selective comprehension thing going on in that misshapen gourd sitting attop your neck, ie., wymyn, their "enlightened male" whipping boy familiars, and idiots who watch too much anime and go the "friend" route but somehow wind up being a true believer in the "women want a sensitive guy" crap printed in your typical estrogen rag such as Cosmo)

a specific subset of the human female population that does NOT include the set group referred to as "all" females

Sure, I suppose I'd get a good chuckle seeing this specific subset of the female population get chased around nekkid with paintball guns in some parcel of real estate in the Nevada desert by a buncha goofballs willing to part with a cool five grand for the privledge because mommy let him soak in his own urine while she was balling the poolboy when he was an infant.

Doesn't mean this extends to anyone and everyone with a set of ovaries, though.

And pgsmith, dude, the "you gots to look for yo' beeyotches elsewhere" thing doesn't work on this particular trip, mostly because like everything else in life, many people seem to enjoy what's bad for them.

Nice folks may be nice, but sooner or later, the average specimen of late twentieth to early twenty-first century dammaged goods is gonna get bored to tears and go back to balling the poolboy/secretary/ski-instructor/teen daughter's skanky friend.

Water finds its own level, anyway.

kirigirisu
24th July 2003, 01:59
Originally posted by Cady Goldfield
- Whining and complaining about how hard it is to find "normal, emotionally stable" women who want zipless sex without commitment

Er... no, dear. We knuckle-walkers just wants the womens whot want zipless sex without commitment.

Perhaps you're thinking "emotionally stable" in sense of women who just might enjoy sex for sex's sake instead of seeing it as some gross physical act they need to do in exchange for shiny rocks, dead severed plant genitalia, security, free food, etc., etc., etc..

Usually, until they've discovered that bumpin' uglies can be fun, most of this particular group sees it as a commodity with a going exchange rate of the aforementioned products plus some illusion of mutual exclusivity that doesn't quite extend to her trips to the Bahamas and Aspen and his late nights in the office and her sister.

When said mutual exclusivity doesn't occur, said group tends to go apesh!t and call 911 with some trumped-up assault charge of some sort directed at the offender in question.

Nothin' normal about that.