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Gil Gillespie
31st May 2000, 16:36
Years ago ikkyo (first teaching) or ik-kajo (first control) was presented as such----as the basic kihon and quintessence of the principle of irimi (entering).

Over the past several years I have noticed some reinterpretations of the technique. Some even eschew irimi. I was told of O-Sensei's deathdead remark re: finally understanding ikkyo, though this may be part of the mythology now.

Is ikkyo just a technique or more properly a principle that allows and encourages wider expression? Is it both? Can it be both?

Gil Gillespie

P.S. This website is peopled with many great experienced budoka who choose to just read & drop a line or 2 every few weeks. We need to hear from you. You know who you are. You don't teach your classes that way.

We await your input in gassho with gratitude.

Walker
31st May 2000, 22:10
I’ll take a beginner’s stab with my 2 Yen worth of rambling.
My first sensei used to say that everything is ikkyo and proceeded to teach about 6 months worth of classes from that perspective which I think was exaggeration for effect, but more than a little true.
I see the basis of ikkyo as the shoulder rotating and find that important. Angier sensei says that the shoulder is the weakest joint in the body so in that way I think a principle is being illustrated in one of the first techniques of Aikido - effecting the center using the arm by way of the shoulder.
It is also the basis for nikkyo through yonkyo so it would be ‘first’ in that sense as well.
Oh well, a start at least.

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-DougWalker

Chuck Clark
31st May 2000, 22:52
Waza are principles hooked together in different ways. I always make sure principles are applied and let waza (techniques) just happen as they will. Uke really decides what technique ends up happening.

Regards,



------------------
Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
http://www.jiyushinkai.org

Jeff Cook
1st June 2000, 00:41
Techniques and principles are absolutely worthless without each other; they only exist in unison.

Use the technique as a vehicle to learn the principles. Principles are universal - techniques are always used to demonstrate the principles.

Learn the principles, and the techniques will come without limit!

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

Mike Collins
1st June 2000, 07:10
Ikkyo is the whole package. It exemplifies entry and tenkan. No good irimi technique without a good turning blend, no good tenkan or ura technique without a good entry behind. Ikkyo teaches one of several touchstone principles. The first technique we learn, it is also the most frustrating and seemingly impossible to master. After almost eleven years, I still haven't got a good handle on it. It has however, educated me on virtually every other technique in Aikido.

I'm happy to report that some high ranking people I've trained with also tell me they don't understand it completely yet though. It's a process.

Daniel Pokorny
1st June 2000, 13:34
To me, technique is simply principle in motion.......


"One sees great things from the valleys, only small things from the peaks"

Regards,

Daniel

Dennis Hooker
1st June 2000, 14:40
First things first! Maybe there was a reason it was called Ikkyo, maybe there was a reason "this" principal action was Ikkyo. Damn, you don't suppose someone actually knew what they were doing do you? Whitout "our" input how could they make such a decision?

genjumin
15th June 2000, 06:38
Hi Dennis! John Versteeg here, I was an assistant instructor in Judo to Phil Minton and a Black Belt in Okinawan Kenpo when you were a Brown Belt at Phil's Dojo.

Ikkyo was called ippon-dori in Daito ryu Aikijujitsu, and is the first twchnique in that art, one of a much greater number forming the first of five daito ryu kata, called respectively ikkajo through Gokkajo.

It is a hard technique to master, and is supposed to be, since it has every principle of Daito ryu and Aikido contained within it.

Once you get it down though, none dare attack you.:-)

I like it myself, a good move, good principle, lock the shoulder out, effecting fukaku den, the bolt lock of Aiki Jujitu, and point the shoulder at the ear, and point the ear wherever you want it to go, pushing up and away, and then take him straight down, back down or around and down, making the hapless fellow 'one with the mat."

Really the hardest thing about the technique is catching an actual attack i flight such as to be able to lock on and apply kuzushi. Once the arm is grasped, I fing=d that a turn of no more than forty five degrees and never ever more than ninety(straight up) is the acceptable effective range of turn in the waza, and once you do thids and line up the lock out, it's a piece o' cake.

For a tsuki ttack, I find the Le Bell Slap 'n' grab most effectiv, cross slap the am from either side into the other palm of your hand, tai sabaki,get the lockie, and apply the twist.Up, Up and away, and then, One With The Floor.

Regards, John Versteeg,
Genjumin

Dennis Hooker
21st June 2000, 15:57
Hi John, I saw Phil last Feb., to bad he no longer teaches Judo or Aikido, he has a place in the history of martial arts in Indaian. I guess he only does Tai Kwan Do now.
Dennis Hooker
http://www.shindai.com



Originally posted by genjumin
Hi Dennis! John Versteeg here, I was an assistant instructor in Judo to Phil Minton and a Black Belt in Okinawan Kenpo when you were a Brown Belt at Phil's Dojo.

Regards, John Versteeg,
Genjumin

Excalibor
3rd July 2000, 17:45
As far as I know, Ikkyô is a principle, the first, which contains every and all other principles in Aikidô...

Ikkyô happens to the name of the technique used to demonstrate it (ude ôsae). It is interesting to note that that in pre-WWII this technique was ude nobashi, ie. the current gokkyô... (as can be seen in Sensey Kisshômaru Ueshiba's _Aikidô_, is this the english title of the techniques book, not the _Aikidô no kokoro_ one? I am using my memory, it may be that the right book is Ô-Sensey's _Budô_ though... one of the two, I'd say...)

As a principle, Ikkyô is The Principle, all of the rest are like compartimentalizations of this one... for the sake of pedagogics or reductionism or atomicism... I like to think that once you've identified all principles in Ikyyô (ude ôsae) (like deconstructing the technique in terms of principles) you have to reconstruct Ikkyô (the principle) once more, the same way you may decompose waza in easier parts, but waza can only be understood as the whole thing together in one move...

Thus, Ikkyô is the Aikidô principle which can be see in any other Aikidô waza...

Certainly, as someone commented sooner, ude ôsae is the basis to kote hineri (nikkyô), kote mawashi (sankyô), etc... as they all start from the same position and movements (at least, clearly identified, are the ômote waza... all my newbie students can see the similarities between ude ôsae ômote and the rest of the set... the ura waza are subtler, but the connection is undoubtedly there)

But waza is something flowing and everchanging from attack to attack, from uke to uke... the principle is just the same, always...

Just my E0.02,
d@

_______________________
David S de Lis
Rônin Aikidô

Meynard Ancheta
3rd July 2000, 18:44
Ikkyo is a principle.

DJM
3rd July 2000, 23:15
Well I don't know enough of Aikido to comment from my own perspective, but I can offer an insight from Ken Cottier Sensei who's weekend course I attended yesterday and Saturday..
I can't quote directly, but Cottier Sensei said that Ikkyo is the heart of Aikido. That every other technique springs from this beginning, be it Nikyo, Sankyo, Yonkyo and so on..
Thinking on this myself, I can see how it applies to such techniques as Irimi nage, tenshi nage, shomen ate and so forth. I got the impression that it extends deeper than this though, and I'd be interested on how this could be visualised from the point of view of, for example, kokyu dosa...
Thanks,
David

Gil Gillespie
4th July 2000, 05:54
This is the dialog I hoped would ensue. Someofmy favorite E-budo folks are above and Mr de Lis posted an eloquent exploration that I must return and reread. And then Meynard makes his first post BOOM ikkyo is a principle.

Then let's keep this going. It is the first teaching, and we all return to it. How are you resolving this as you look back (and ahead) on your own training?

I'll stumble into this personally because I used to enter into the gathering zone of uke's attack (irimi), but now I'm exploring the koshi mawari spirals in uke's power zone (difficult for me) and the drawing out of uke's dissipation (extended zone).

It's all ikkyo. We know that. Instead of putting it on the all techniques are principle at root platitude, how would you explore the biomechanics of this "simplest"of techniques? But wait-----it's not a technique, it's a principle (I'm fully down with that now).

Y'know what? Before you jump on this (should you find it worthy) go have a cup of ocha. Go to your "laughin place" and check it out. I posted this ikkyo thing after years of thought. I'm only asking a couple minutes before you attack shomen uchi.

Excalibor
4th July 2000, 13:55
Hi,


Originally posted by Gil Gillespie
This is the dialog I hoped would ensue. Someofmy favorite E-budo folks are above and Mr de Lis posted an eloquent exploration that I must return and reread.


Well, I'm afraid I did explain myself really poorly, as when I re-read my post I had to think hard to understand what I was saying, so let's try it once more...

Ikkyô is the Aikidô principle, which comprises the strategical and tactical and espiritual considerations of the Budô, like maai, kokyû, reiki, ki no nagare, kuzushi, etc... in a single expression.

Ude ôsae (restraining the arm) is the technique which today most Aikikai and many other schools use to demonstrate Ikkyô. It's a simple technique that teaches the newbie all she has to know about foot and hand placement and movement, body balance, hip power, breathing, distance, disequilibrium, and so on. It's also the most complex technique, because as you progress through the years, you revisit it again and again and notice things you didn't noticed last time, and so you train harder, which makes you more acutely aware of your flaws in performing Ikkyô *and* ude ôsae...

Now, if you do Aikidô, you must do Ikkyô, in any and all techniques, because that's what defines what Aikidô is... It's like if 'Aikidô' were the marketing name and 'Ikkyôdô' the technical name...

All ôsae waza are variations of sorts of ude ôsae, and thus it's easy to see ikkyô (the technique) in nikkyô, sankyô, etc... (up to hijikime ôsae). It's harder to see ikkyô (the technique) in shihô nage or koshi nage, but it's easy to see Ikkyô (the principle) if you think about it as the way you do Aikidô... basically all the techniques blurr in a mist of instantaneous responses in which it's sometimes hard to know what you have done, you simply do it, just doing Aikidô...



Then let's keep this going. It is the first teaching, and we all return to it. How are you resolving this as you look back (and ahead) on your own training?


Mmm... not elegantly, I'm afraid... still on it, always on it...



It's all ikkyo. We know that. Instead of putting it on the all techniques are principle at root platitude, how would you explore the biomechanics of this "simplest"of techniques? But wait-----it's not a technique, it's a principle (I'm fully down with that now).


OK, ude ôsae... I'm a short guy (5'7") and I always have problems in dealing with tall uke in go no sen... sen no sen is easier (at least it's easier now). I'm exploring ways of restraining uke's attack at the moment of contact beyond a big extension, I want it very short, I need to dominate it almost dead stopped before releasing all the body, inclusing metaphorae with the sword and any other thing that may be helpful...

Then I am not happy with my suwari waza, specially in ura, must work on that harder... Actually all my ura ude ôsae sucks, I don't manage to completely control uke with just 1 tenkan, I usually need a bit of a tai no henka before getting a complete control of uke's center... I should get it much sooner, before I start to do the technique, so a single, simple, unique tenkan is enough...

I'd go on, but I'm already depressed enough...

Laters,
d@



[Edited by Excalibor on 07-04-2000 at 02:39 AM]

Gil Gillespie
4th July 2000, 16:10
David----

I didn't mean I'd have to reread your post because it was confusing. Au contrere. I meant because it was so well-written and worthy of additional thought! As was your subscript! Thank you for contributing to the dialog.

See you down the e-budo road,
Gil

Sometimes I sits and thinks and sometimes I just sits.

Brently Keen
7th July 2000, 08:38
I think Jeff put it best.

>Techniques and principles are absolutely worthless without each other; they only exist in unison.

>Use the technique as a vehicle to learn the principles. Principles are universal - techniques are always used to demonstrate the principles.

>Learn the principles, and the techniques will come without limit!

This is correct.

Ikkyo (ikkajo) means literally first teaching or lesson. Incidentally the aikido term was borrowed from Daito-ryu Jujutsu. Ikkajo in Daito-ryu comprises the first lesson and contains 30 different techniques. The first technique, ippon dori is the Daito-ryu technique from which Aikido's ikkyo (ude osae) is derived.

Ikkyo in aikido is not a principle, but is a technique taught to illustrate certain basic principles. When you learn the first lesson by practicing the technique (ude osae), you should come to understand these basic principles, which will then help you master not only the basic technique of ikkyo (ude osae), but also other Aikido techniques.

If you're having trouble with the ura version, it's probably an indicator that you haven't fully digested the above mentioned principles in the omote version. Keep practicing!

Brently Keen



[Edited by Brently Keen on 07-07-2000 at 02:40 AM]

rob_liberti
14th July 2000, 19:25
I have it on good authority that Yamaguchi Sensei's final ikkyo was done without ever using the second arm (for the elbow grab). The majority of the students he was doing this to were not so easy to do the 'elbow to the ear' thing on either. This is something to think about.

Rob

[Edited by rob_liberti on 07-17-2000 at 08:01 AM]

Yamantaka
16th July 2000, 21:04
Originally posted by rob_liberti
I have it on good authority that Yamaguchi Sensei's final ikkyo without ever using the second arm (for the elbow grab). The majority of the students he was doing this to were not so easy to do the 'elbow to the ear' thing on either. This is something to think about.

Rob

Hi, Robert!

Long time no see! Renato and all your friends from Salvador send you their best regards, hoping to see you again soon. We're trying to promote a big event, next year, with Gleason Sensei and we sure hope you may be here with us again.
Yamantaka (a.k.a.Ubaldo Alcantara)

rob_liberti
17th July 2000, 14:13
Ubaldo san,

I'm so glad to hear from you! I get an extra week of vacation next year, and I would LOVE to spend it in Brazil! Dan Sensei invited me to take ukemi in Chile this year and I have been thinking about you and your son a lot ever since.

I'm sorry to everyone who is reading this post and is wondering what this has to do with ikkyo. I can say this:
Ubaldo is a very sincere man for whom I have the highest respect. As I understand his life, he certainly demonstrate the principle of ikkyo in his everyday life and has been do so for years. Anyone who has had the pleasure of knowing him or someone like him certainly must understand that ikkyo is a principle. Seeing it as a technique is the like staring at a finger which is pointing at the moon.

Rob