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hobbitbob
23rd July 2003, 00:20
As a newly "converted" Seibukan-ka, I have been attempting to discover more information about those who studied under Kyan. Zenryo Shimabukuro and Shoshin Nagamine are very well documented. I am curious, however, about the karate of Joen Nakazato (Shorinji-Ryu). I can find few references to him other than those by McCarthy and Bishop. Is his Shorinji-Ryu similar to Seibukan?
Also, since I'm on the subject, is the Shorinji-Ryu of Richard Kim also from the Kyan lineage (or,as David Chambers would say, the Kiiii-yaan lineage :) ! ) ? If so, when did he train with Kyan Sensei?
Thank you.

Jussi Häkkinen
6th August 2003, 23:48
hobbitbob,

Be sure to check out http://www.seibukan.org

Especially the "History" -section and its "Historical corrections" -subsection by Jeff Nagata are worth reading and shed light into your question.

If you're interested about Seibukan kata, you might like to read a following article. It is a translation of an article originally released in Finnish. The page that article is on does not have (as far as I know) any connection to Seibukan. http://www.karate.org.yu/seibukan_kata.htm



Troof: I wouldn't say that Shuri-te = Shorin-Ryu. I'd rather say that Shuri-te and Tomari-te formed Shorin-Ryu together. I'd also set Kyan's lineage and Itosu's lineage apart a bit, based on a kata-list and certain other things. Of course, there are cross-overs with Kyan's lineage and Itosu's lineage (such as Matsubayashi-Ryu).

Jussi Häkkinen
9th August 2003, 14:40
Troof: Yes, I agree to some extent. However, when talking about Kyan's lineage (what I'd be willing to hold as a "root" for Matsubayashi's Tomari-te), the difference is rather obvious. I must say that Tomari-kata has a different feeling that Shuri-kata. Maybe it's just in my head...

However, Kyan's teachers were:

Sokon Matsumura (Shuri-Te), who taught him Seisan and Gojushi-ho.
Maeda Chiku (Tomari-Te), who taught Wansu to Kyan.
Oyadomari Kokan (Tomari-Te), who taught Passai.
Kosaku Matsumora (Tomari-Te), who taught Chinto to Kyan. That version is practiced in Matsubayashi-Ryu.
Yara PECHIN (Shuri-Te), who taught Kusanku to Kyan.

Kyan also learned Tokumine no Kon from Tokumine Pechin - or from his guardian.

Kyan also created kata Ananku, which is a combination of Shuri-Te and Tomari-Te, containing techniques from Seisan, Wansu and Passai. The version trained in Seibukan, Okinawa Shorinji-Ryu (Joen Nakazato) and Shorinji-Ryu Renshinkan (Isamu Tamotsu) is different from the Matsubayashi-Ryu version (that I personally think as being a creation of Shoshin Nagamine. He perhaps wanted to honor his teacher by naming his own kata after a kata that Kyan created).

As far as I know, Richard Kim's Shorinji-Ryu carries little or no similarity to Shorin-Ryu Seibukan.

Sochin
11th August 2003, 19:26
Sensei Kim always told us that he taught Japanese karate, not Okinawan.

He listed his mentors as Kenichi Sawai, Yabu Kentsu, Toyama Kanken, and the one he called Sensei, Yoshida Kotaro.

Sochin
11th August 2003, 23:29
From our "history":

Sensei Richard Kim studied with the great Yoshida Kotaro from about 1936 until the master's death (1951?). Sensei Kim also knew and trained with Sokaku Takeda in Hokkaido in the presence of his instructor Yoshida Kotaro before the death of Sokaku Takeda in 1943. For approximately four years Sensei Kim was an uchideshi in the household of Yoshida Kotaro.

I have heard nothing about a connection between Yabu Kentsu and Yoshida Kataro.

The following is a list of names to show the reason for his claim that the Dai Nippon Butoku Kai karate went back a thousand years.


SEIWA TENNO - 850AD He was the founder of the Minamoto clan and established a martial arts tradition which was to persist in his family for more than a thousand years.

Yoriyoshi Minamoto - (995-1082)

Yoshimitsu Minamoto (1056 - 1127) Yoshimitsu left the capital and took up residence in Kai Province where he also changed his family name from Minamoto to Takeda (Bamboo Field). From this time onwards there was a split in the Minamoto family. One branch remained at the capital the other had a different name and kept the family martial art started by Seiwa Tenno alive. Yoshimitsu was credited with having watched a spider capture his prey, a group of strategies which led to the addition of aikijutsu to the family martial art..

Yoshikyo Minamoto, 1098-1163.

Kunisigi Takeda, 1546-1582

(The following are the Aizu Clan leaders during the Tokugawa Period. It was in Aizu that the Takeda family tradition was merged with the Aizu clans tradition for the duration of the Tokugawa Period.)

Soemon Takeda, 1758-1853
Sokichi Takeda,
Sokaku Takeda, 1858-1942

Yoshida Kotaro
Richard Kim, 1920-

Sokaku Takeda was taught by both his father (Sokichi) and his grandfather (Soemon). The importance of Sokaku Takeda in his family martial art is that he was the first master of the line to teach this secret family art to anyone outside of the family for years and the first one to teach this art to the public ever. During the early times of the Takeda clan the sensei taught ONLY to the more noble families of the buke (warrior class).

Our "official" history about Sensei Kim's early training goes like this (in part):

1927: This is when sensei met Yabu Kentsu (the sergeant) at the Nuuanu YMCA and studied karate basics for a year.

Yabu Kentsu 1863 - 1937
Yabu Kentsu was a top student of Itosu Yasutsune. Yabu was a graduate of the Kashi-Yoseisho (non comissioned officers school) and was a stickler for the basics. Yabu was one of the first men to instruct karate in the Okinawan school system. In 1927 he moved to Hawaii where he taught in the local YMCA for about a year then he returned to his homeland. Some of Yabu’s top students were Kanken Toyama, Chosin Chibana and Shinpan Gusukuma.

1928: After training under Yabu Sensei Kim further continued his training under Arakaki Ankichi. After this he trained with Mutsu.

hobbitbob
12th August 2003, 00:36
What does Kim style Shorinji look like? Does it look Okinawan or Japanese?

Pavel Dolgachov
12th August 2003, 16:46
Is his Shorinji-Ryu similar to Seibukan?
I don't know what to say. Lineage are the same, but techniques are different. I saw just few pictures of Seisan kata and how on Okinawa students do it together, for example. In Seibukan they do shiko-dachi many times, but in Nakazato Joen Shorinji-ryu they do stance like short zenkutsu-dachi. I think there are more differences.

Sochin
12th August 2003, 17:00
I'm sorry Robert,
I have no basis for comparison, knowing nothing about Okinawan karate.

It is very similar to Shotokan with a couple of differences that increase practicality a great deal - I have trained both - and is higher in stance with a great emphasis on mobility.

I't's too bad, I just came back from Castle Rock...if you do an Okinawan style, perhaps when I'm down there next year I could come over and we could compare kata or something.

I am making friends with an old dojo mate who went Okinawan here in town, so maybe I'll get over to his place someday.

Rob Alvelais
12th August 2003, 19:24
Originally posted by Sochin
From our "history":

1928: After training under Yabu Sensei Kim further continued his training under Arakaki Ankichi. After this he trained with Mutsu.


Arakaki Ankichi was the first teacher of Shoshin Nagamine, founder of Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu.

According to Nagamine, Arakaki Ankichi died on Dec 28, 1927.

Rob

Rob Alvelais
12th August 2003, 19:26
Originally posted by hobbitbob
What does Kim style Shorinji look like? Does it look Okinawan or Japanese?

We've got a few schools in my area headed by students of Mr. Kim.
The kata of these people looks like Shotokan. It's well known that Mr. Kim and Mr. Nishiyama were good friends. So, perhaps there was considerable "influence" from Mr. Nishiyama.


Rob

hobbitbob
12th August 2003, 19:37
The style closest in technique to Seibukan that I have seen is Seidokan (Toma). Seibukan is quite different from Shotokan (having done the former for 22 years, with the knee injuries to prove it! :) ).

Jussi Häkkinen
14th August 2003, 09:56
I would count both Okinawa Shorinji-Ryu (Joen Nakazato) and Shorinji-Ryu Renshinkan (Isamu Tamotsu) being closest to Shorin-Ryu Seibukan from all the Kyan derived styles. Tamotsu was a student of Zenryo Shimabukuro and originally taught his karate in Japan, until the connection of these two gentlemen faded away. Originally name "Renshinkan" was a name of the dojo, teaching Zenryo Shimabukuro's karate, that Zenji Shimabukuro and Uragami-sensei founded 1961 in Osaka.