Separate training?

[razorback]

I havent heard anything about women training separately from men, but I wonder if it would be of benefit to women if they could train in women-only classes.
I think it could really be a boost for martial-arts. Especially if it was done subtlely. Yoga comes to mind, many women enjoy yoga but they dont go into the full extent of studying yoga, all the philosophy, all the meditations, etc. And with classes like Tae-bo they exercise sure, but they dont address specific women issuses of self-defense.
Anyone want to share their 2 cents?

[A. M. Jauregui]

I am generally the only woman in the class - for sure the only one at the dojo that I train at. So I do not have a problem in the slightest about mixed training.

A friend of mine started a women’s (only) karate class back when I was an undergraduate - I was the punching bag, uh I, mean I took ukemi. At first I thought that such discriminatory training was horrendous but it did bring in some girls that would not have trained in a mix dojo. One of those means to an end situations...

No matter where one practices self-defence training is never going to be foolproof. Most everyone with a bit of common sense knows this. Most of the girls in the class knew that they had a long way to go except one - she learned the hard way with a little match against me were I never left seiza...

[CEB]

Women only karate classes used to be more popular. In the cinematic classic "The Fighting Black Kings" the movie makes a point that women train separately from the men. When adult karate classes were more popular segregation used to be more feasible. Around here however number of students just aren't large enough to give the girls an adequate sample of training partners.

Personally I don't like training with women. I was raised as boy being taught that you do not hit girls. I've had trouble overcoming what has been socially engrained in me from birth plus girls seem a lot more fragile than guys.

I've seen some interesting issue pop up in the dojo over the years. Some of the women we have gotten into the dojo over the years have come from abusive relationships. We spend quite a bit of time with first year students on basics and stuff that more resembles close quarter combatives than classical karate. Some of the women from abusive backgrounds do not react well in the dojo when grabbed by men. I am not psychologist and I won't even think about speculating about the roots of these psychological issues. We have found it is best to pair the newer women up with some of our more experienced women. At least until we have gotten to know them better or the new students have had time to get fully acclimated to the dojo.

[gmanry]

It all depends.

One of the things we found when teaching an intensive SD course at a university was that men and women, particularly in that transitional age group, have a vested interest in hanging on to their social conditioning.

The problem wasn't always the men trying to dominate the women, but the women holding themselves back out of embarrassment of appearing "too capable" in front of the guys, for whatever reasons.

We got around this by largely having the women train with women and men train with men in the coed class with me playing the heavy for the women when they needed a larger opponent.

I was the final test at the end of the semester so they had to face me sooner or later, and I always presented a constant attitude towards them so they did not have to adjust to any sudden flare ups of machismo or other idiocy. We trained heavily on trash talking and that kind of machismo, but the subtle manipulations of a "friend" on the mat are something these women could do without.

I prefer mixed classes, but it is up to the instructor to closely monitor the behavior of the students, excessive machismo from guys or delicate flower syndrome from women needs to be addressed. Martial arts practice requires the middle path, neither extreme will do.

Of course you can always make small adjustments for the individual over time, but the individual then has to make small adjustments as well.

I too have seen some interesting things regarding gender in the dojo, by students and instructors. I have watched instructors subtley destroy the self-confidence of female and male students. Can't let the uppity women think they can fight and can't let those young guys get "too cocky" (because they may find out that I am not all powerful). This type of stuff is sad.

In the end, imo:

Women do benefit from women only self-defense as long as there is a male able to take the role of attacker (trained instructor). Men ALSO benefit from male only SD classes because although an assault is an assault is an assault from the fist and feet end of things, the social tactics leading up to assaults can vary wildly for men and women (and children and adults). This is the single most important reason to separate the sexes for SD teaching. For classical MA training it may not be so important if the instructor is aware and competent.

[Hanna B]

When discussing women's classes, I think it is important to decide what is the aim of these classes.

1) A softer start for woman beginners, but after a while they should be introduced to regular training?
2) A group aimed at self-defence for women?
3) A group where women can practice the art for years, same as the men but only with women?
4) A group where the women in the dojo or some dojos can get together once a month or so, to train, share experience and have fun?
5) Something else?


1) I have never seen one of those who will get more women practising in the long run. But if you need another class and more students this and the upcoming term to pay the rent, it could be an idea.

2) Are we talking self defence for women or martial arts here? I do believe these are separate issues. Self defence for women should be done by people focussed on these issues, I believe. Not by just any martial arts instructor.

3) Why?!?

4) I believe that could be a good idea, in arts and/or dojos where there are few women. Of course this should be led by the women together, or by the most senior of them.


When choosing between dojos, I would most certainly go for the one that do not separate the sexes. Ask the women who practice today and have stayed for more than one or two years what they think... I think I am kind of typical for this group.

[AFF]

In almost all the dojos I have practiced, there are always more men than women (and sometimes I have been the only woman on the class).

I think if you practice in a mixed dojo, you learn to execute the techniques with more precision. At least in Aikido, strenght does not always work. If I am practicing with another woman, who might be smaller than me, I might use force instead of technique during practice. If I am practicing with a guy (who are usually stronger than me), I am forced to use the proper technique than strenght.

Alina

[bruceb]

There are times when it benefits the invidual to train with their own gender,and then there are situations that call for intergender training .... it depends.

I am proponent of not just the physical manipulations but the underlying signals the human body sends to another body and how these signals are translated to encourage, or confuse, the opponents brain or body. Some of these are later interpreted as meridians for pressure points or as exchange of polarity for effective activation of pressure points, but whether they are real or imaginary, the observation of how they work for men is different for how they work for women as women and men have different polaritys.

So ... is you should get into this study it makes perfect sense for women to train with women when they are mirroring a practice from a teacher but to move a strike from the left side of the body to the right side of the body, or to change it in some other manner so the spark of energy is felt.

Haven't you ever felt a little spark of energy when a everything is alligned for a technique? Well, you should for some strikes or manipulation, because when we touch an opponent or training partner we are sending signals to their brain through their body, and causing the physical reactions we see in the body. If that was not so, then we could work out with a manaquin or a dummy and get the same result as a live human being, couldn't we? But it is not the same. We depend on reflex and response for much of practice.

I think you will find if a woman stands with left foot forward when a man would stand with right foot forward, or uses left side when a man uses the right side an amazing increase in effiecientcy.... especially with intergender training.

I am kind of on the fence with intergender training because there are benefits to training with people who are larger and stronger than yourself, and then there are drawbacks. I guess you gotta take whatever training you can get where you are, cause that is the way it is.

Make the best of whatever the situation is.

[kimeve]

Personally I don't think women should ever train separately from men. As far as I can see, there is no need to. Sometimes a technique may require that people of similar weights or heights work together, but that isn't exactly a gender thing.

In my eyes, it's better for women to work out with men--since women often do take a self-defense perspective on martial arts, why on earth would you want to work out with other women? I don't think a woman is as likely to be attacked/raped/etc. by another woman than she is by a man. Therefore, you should train with men so that you have a better idea of what it's like if you ever have to defend yourself against one.

Myself, I've never objected to working out with men. These days, I'm actually often the only women at workouts, although I don't really think of it in that way...I know all the guys there and everyone's friendly. Gender just isn't an issue. The only big difference is that I've got longer hair. ;)

~Kimberly Palmer