Judo and Sumo

[jeffbruner]

I am a long time Judoka and am thinking about starting Sumo.

On the surface it would seem that Judo skills would be effective for Sumo. Could someone experienced in Sumo discuss crossing over from Judo?

Also it is my understanding that the first person to fall (in anyway) or step out of the ring loses. Is this the only rule? Can you use straight Judo techmiques?

Thanks in advance for the info!

[A. M. Jauregui]

To bum off of Jeff’s question, I too am interested for I have heard that in the olden days Aikijujutsu practitioners would have a go at sumo. (I know historically this is because just about everyone did sumo, but still...)

[Joseph Svinth]

In the prewar Pacific NW, the sumo champions tended to be football linemen (centers, especially). The judoka, on the other hand, tended to be football running backs.

This suggests different skill sets, with the sumotori needing to be faster off the mark, and the judoka having a knack for just slipping out of someone's grip.

[Mike Williams]

A lot of techniques used in sumo have direct judo equivalents. Most of the trips are there (ko-soto-gake, etc.), as well as some of the bigger throws. I've seen uchimata used, and even (can't remember quite where, it was some very old footage) ippon-seoi-nage.

Conversely, the super-heavy division at the olympics often looks a lot like sumo. :)

Cheers,

Mike

PS: and then there's BJJ...

[MarkF]

Sooooo, which one is which? Who is Vitamins and who is Minerals?


Mark

PS: I recently saw a US Sumo Championships tournament. Apparently, it was an open tournament as many sumotori made the trip from a couple of former Soviet blocks, and the Balkans was also represented.

Also, a certain girl may want to take note, there was also a women's championship in the same basho.

[Joseph Svinth]

The Japanese say they want sumo in the Olympics. Why, I don't know, as when that happens, you'll not see many Japanese medalists.

Why?

Because 6'5", 400-pound Japanese are rare. On the other hand, 6'5", 400-pound Tongans and Samoans are just high school kids who lifted weights two or three times, and quit because their mothers told them they couldn't afford to buy new clothes every week.

[jeffbruner]

To get this back on track about the relation to judo, and the rules of competion, I remember seeing a televised amatuer Sumo tournament a few years back, and I was surprised to see a judoka aquaintance of mine competing. He was about 177 - 185 pounds, yet he ended up winning not only his weight catagory but the open division as well.

Mostly he just used body movement learned from years of judo. No fancy techniques, he just "opened the door" and let the opponent fly through as he was rushed.

So back to the original question (sort of), would any judo techniques be banned in Sumo? And also, could someone please clarify the rules. Is it any more complicated than just that the first person to stumble or step out of the ring loses the match?

Thanks for your input.

-JB

[don]

Originally posted by jeffbruner
On the surface it would seem that Judo skills would be effective for Sumo. Could someone experienced in Sumo discuss crossing over from Judo?

Maybe it was only PR, but the press made a big deal some years ago out of Mainomi taking judo lessons from Yawara-chan (the popular girl who was always winning tourneys.)

[A. M. Jauregui]

http://www.sumo.or.jp/eng/museum/basic/beginner/rules.html

A bout is won by forcing the opponent out of the inner circle or throwing him in the dohyo. To lose the match it is not necessary to fall in the circle or to be pushed completely out. The rikishi who touches the ground with any part of his body, his knee or even the tip of his finger or his top-knot, loses the match. Or he need only put one toe or his heel over the straw bales marking the circle. Striking with fists, hair pulling, eye gouging, choking and kicking in the stomach or chest are prohibited. It is also against the rules to sieze the part of the band covering the vital organs. As there are no weight limits as in boxing or western wrestling it is possible for a rikishi to find himself pitted against an opponent twice his own weight.

[jeffbruner]

Thanks for the quote and the link. Very helpful.

[Oniyama]

The Real Deal with Judo and Sumo (at least as I see it)

Ok. The balance and throws one learns in Judo can carry over to Sumo. However, you have to get past the tachiai (initial clash) first. Otherwise you will get blasted out of the Dohyo (ring) before you have a chance to do anything. Also Sumo really calls for you to be aggressive. In many martial arts, Judo included, we learn to let the opponent attack first, watch that attack and then respond. In the US Open (which I just got back from) I learned the hard way that the wait-and-respond mode does not work. Coming off the line fast and hard is much more important than throwing. If you are still standing and engaged with you opponent after the tachiai then your throwing skills can come into play.

I am going to post my expereince and observations from the 2003 US Sumo Open soo. I think you will find it useful.

Take care,
John Hidalgo

[jeffbruner]

Hey, John:

That was the kind of nuts and bolts info I was looking for.

Thanks for that, very helpful.

-JB

[jeffbruner]

Also here is a very useful link that was posted in a similiar discussion at judo-info.com.

http://www.sumo.or.jp/eng/museum/basic/kimarite/kimarite.html

This is an illustrated list of Sumo Techniques, some very similiar to judo.

-JB

[Oniyama]

[QUOTE]Hey, John:

That was the kind of nuts and bolts info I was looking for.

Thanks for that, very helpful.

-JB[QUOTE]



No Problem. Glad to help.

Take care,
John Hidalgo

[Tibby]

Hey, I'm the guy that starts the topic in Judoinfo that Jeff mentioned. I'm interesting in Sumo. Infact, I got into Judo because it is so close to sumo, and there are no sumo clubs in the area, and I'm a pretty lean guy. But after hearing the stories I here, I think there is hope for me do Sumo yet.

I was just going to ask Oniyama a few questions, about Training for Sumo. I just started Judo (Just tested for my yellow belt monday, in fact) and when I master the throw as best I can, I want to give it a shot. I'm a powerlifter, so I'm a strong guy for my size. Any tips on modifying my Judo as I'm learn it so I can be ready for Sumo? Thanks.

[Oniyama]

Interesting that you should bring this up. In my Judo training I have recently started forcing myself to avoid using my opponents gi for gripping. I have also started grabbing the obi(belt) more. Right now I have been using Uchi Mata, Osoto Gari and Tai Otoshi. I can do Kosoto Gari like that but it is more for training that practical Sumo application.

There is another thread I posted on my experiences at the U.S. Sumo Open. I strongly recommend that you read through it as I think you might come across the same problems.

In the meantime, where are you located. I may be able to refer you to someone in your area.

Also, please put your real name in your posts (E-budo rules, you know. Besides, it's good courtesy.)

There is a Texas Sumo Yahoo group and an American Sumo Yahoo group. If you are interestede shoot me an e-mail at yodel@texas.net.

Take care,
John Hidalgo



If there is anything I can do to help, please feel free to ask.

[Tibby]

Yeah, me and my friend in our class joke about how we are going to be screwed if we face a shirtless foe, lol. How do you do Tai Otoshi without a Gi? Put your arm around there waist, or pull with the belt? The way we do it, you grab the gi, putting your eldow in there arm put for troque. I guess a lot of sumo is more brute strength then leverage like in judo? Morotogari(sp?) is one of my favorite moves, is that used a lot with the lighter sumos?

Sorry for now putting the name, I kind of skimmed over the rules. I have to run, but count on me writing an e-mail to you later tonight or tomorrow!


Later,
Chris Thibodeaux

[Oniyama]

Wll, Tibby, I could tell you, but then I'd have to throw you.

Seriously, though, I generally grab the opponent either at the wrist or just above the elbow with one hand and scoop the opponent's head into a headlock with the other hand. Explaining it in text is probably not the best way to present it.

Next Judo class, just try different throws by grabbing the opponent as if he or she was not wearing a gi. I think you will find it educational.

Take care,
John Hidalgo

[Tibby]

Wll, Tibby, I could tell you, but then I'd have to throw you.

Go for it. I'm only about a 5 hour drive from that area of Texas :D

I just read your thread about the first Tournament experance. Very good. You make some great points.

A question I had, do you wear Mawashi, or something else similer?

Later,
Chris Thibodeaux

[Oniyama]

The short answer is yes, we wear the mawashi. Some people wear bike shorts beneath the mawashi. Go to www.lonestarsumo.org and look at the gallery.

JH

[Tibby]

Ok, while your on the board, one more fast question, do lean Sumotri go any good at all? I notice you have a lean guys in your class. What about short guys. I’m a short (5’5”), stocky (150 lbs) guy, would my build help me or hurt me in sumo?

Oh, yeah, one of my favorite moves is Morotegari, is that useful?

Later,
Chris

[Oniyama]

In International Sumo there are weight classes. Most competitors I have seen in the light weight division range from 150 to 185. Short and stock is good (lower center of gravity).

Take care,
JH

[Tibby]

Do most of the lightweights work with redirection, or does the light weight class still use a lot of the brute force that Sumo is famous for?

Later,
Chris Thibodeaux