PDA

View Full Version : Circle/Square/Triangle



Chad Bruttomesso
25th May 2000, 16:55
TommyK,

Thanks for the warm welcome. I hope I can do your question justice.

This post is in response to a question posed by TommyK in the “Introduction” thread. I thought that it might be interesting to hear everyone’s response to his question:

[To start you off, I parody Terry Dobson Sensei, by asking: "Do you understand circle, square, triangle?"]

Well, than answer I have regarding circle/square/triangle probably isn't the one my high school geometry teacher would want. All joking aside, this circle/square/triangle theory is quite interesting. I read a book a few years ago (I think the title was "Aikido in Everyday Life") that focused on this. The premise of it was, for example, if someone enters with a triangle respond with a circle.

Unfortunately, on the mat I find it difficult to keep this theory in mind. I have shifted more towards looking for the openings. Sometimes the best opening is right down the middle. Would this be a triangle? I have also started thinking about spirals and trying to use that idea in my practice.

Saotome Sensei often talks about using atemi to "capture their mind" as you move in. How does atemi fit into this circle/square/triangle theory? Another example is (during bokken practice) if the Uke strikes shomen (triangle?), shift slightly off line, let the cut go past/slide off your sword that is in a blocking or covering position, and respond with a yokomen cut. Maybe you could help me out by pointing out any circles, squares or triangles that you see in this example.

What is your understanding and opinion of the whole circle/square/triangle theory? How do you apply it to your Aikido? Can you use this off the mat as well as on?

I am looking forward to hearing what everyone has to say on this topic.

Thank you for your time,

Chad Bruttomesso

Jeff Cook
25th May 2000, 20:08
I find the theories interesting but overly complicated and impractical. Personally, I don't deal with the theoretical when practicing, but with the established, specific principles. Saotome Sensei's expression of "capturing the mind" with atemi is an example of a principle in action. It is not theoretical, therefore it does not fit in to the theories mentioned.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

Mike Collins
25th May 2000, 21:37
Triangle, circle, square is really evident in swordwork if you're looking for it. The act of covering your head and being slightly offline puts you in a triangular relationship to your partner. Blending while entering behind (or slightly to the side) is a circular motion. Cutting the neck while stepping through is kind of a square motion.

I have also seen it where the initial "block" or the act of covering the head is square, the entry is triangular, and the cut or throw is circular.

When thinking of these movements, keep iriminage in mind. This is based on a kind of swordwork that has been shown by many teachers, but I don't know if it is in anybody's "curriculum".

I don't think I really shed any light here, but it's something to consider.

Ron Tisdale
25th May 2000, 21:40
I'm kind of with Jeff on this one. I'm not much for high theory on this one.

Focus Triangle
Balance Square
Harmony Circle

Make of it what you will....

Ron Tisdale

MarkF
26th May 2000, 10:08
I have to go with Ron and Jeff, as well. I remember when I learned how to shoot a pistol. More important than hitting the target is to position yourself so you become a smaller target, ie, turn side ways, to make yourself smaller. This is something I can deal with in MA as well.

------------------
Mark F. Feigenbaum

Jeff Cook
26th May 2000, 15:28
Circles (arcs) can be found in virtually every single movement - and I mean every single one, even in an apparent "straight" punch, as an example. Where? Well, in order to get the fist to move along a straight line, you have two arcs working with/against each other - the arc at the elbow joint, and the arc at the shoulder joint. These arcs, in coordinated opposition (adduction and abduction), cause the fist to move in a straight line. And of course you can add other circular motions in the form of a twisting punch and twisting the hips into the punch.

Square and triangular components of the same punch are evident when you examine the angles of force into the target in relationship to the tori/uke and the ground upon which both are standing.

Actually, all three components can be discovered in every single martial movement.

How does this help in learning the principles of movement and increasing the efficiency of technique?

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

Mike Collins
26th May 2000, 16:56
I think, but I don't know: if a technique seems to be going sideways, you can usually figure out where the problem is by analyzing whether or not you're incorporating all 3 principles at appropriate ratios and timings. That is, if you present square, you better enter triangularly as in iriminage, if you present triangularly, you can get away with a more square approach as in sumi otoshi. Circularity needs be incorporated as well in order to get a blend. If you are completely circular, you end up appearing to run away or back up.

I have no idea if this is terribly important, but apparently Osensei thought these three shapes were important, as well as their three dimensional forms in the cube, pyramid, and sphere. If you look for them for a while, you start to see them and when they are missing, you can notice, and adjust.

Jeff Cook
27th May 2000, 01:10
Mike,

That makes sense. You are saying they are used as visualizations to enhance the learning process?

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

Gil Gillespie
27th May 2000, 06:07
Very true Mike. I've noticed the same process. For me principles emerge sluggishly through hundreds of hours of practice. Dennis Hooker has since day one demonstrated principles of Aikido technique in paired bokken katas. As a beginner, try though I may, I just couldn't SEE the correlation between ts'ki kote gaesh' & 2 guys whacking sticks. It came very slowly (admittedly I'm not the brightest bulb in the citcuit). It is still coming. That's part of the "positive addiction."

Years ago I heard an old Aikido instructor marvel at how Muhammad Ali's "triangles were never out of alignment." I had to mull that for years, too. Now I see the triangles somewhat: the basic structural triangle of hara at apex over feet, balance triangle of hips over knees, power triangle of arms with elbows tight meeting in front of the center "keep it in front of your knot!" I heard forever. . .

The circle & spiral are the root of Aikido de-ai and technique. I'm still exploring the interplay of large into small & vice versa. I painted a canvas that hangs in our dojo of an a famous old tachi viewed through the window of a mildewed old toro (stone lantern) titled "rat's head/ ox's neck" from Musashi.

One of our more poetically artistic sempai found a thick vine tightly spiraled like a coil spring and ran a mahagony bokken through its length. It remains a beautiful training tool to demonstrate the spiral.

Something to ponder is that the first
page of Morihiro Saito Sensei's 1973 work "Aikido: Vol 1/ Basic Techniques" shows the triangle as A, the circle as I, the square as KI, comprising AIKI.

Why do you think that is????

Gil Gillespie

Mike Collins
27th May 2000, 07:12
I think so. I find I need to think about stuff a lot of different ways sometimes before I start to grasp principle.

I trained briefly with a man named Wally Jay in jujutsu, and I hadn't trained with him for about 5 years when what he said and demonstrated started to make sense to the point that I could recreate it (sort of).

Aikido is very much like that for me. I am still finding myself saying Hmmmmm, about stuff my teacher said the first year I was training with him.

Gil Gillespie
27th May 2000, 17:54
Very true Mike. I've noticed the same process. For me principles emerge sluggishly through hundreds of hours of practice. Dennis Hooker has since day one demonstrated principles of Aikido technique in paired bokken katas. As a beginner, try though I may, I just couldn't SEE the correlation between ts'ki kote gaesh' & 2 guys whacking sticks. It came very slowly (admittedly I'm not the brightest bulb in the citcuit). It is still coming. That's part of the "positive addiction."

Years ago I heard an old Aikido instructor marvel at how Muhammad Ali's "triangles were never out of alignment." I had to mull that for years, too. Now I see the triangles somewhat: the basic structural triangle of hara at apex over feet, balance triangle of hips over knees, power triangle of arms with elbows tight meeting in front of the center "keep it in front of your knot!" I heard forever. . .

The circle & spiral are the root of Aikido de-ai and technique. I'm still exploring the interplay of large into small & vice versa. I painted a canvas that hangs in our dojo of an a famous old tachi viewed through the window of a mildewed old toro (stone lantern) titled "rat's head/ ox's neck" from Musashi.

One of our more poetically artistic sempai found a thick vine tightly spiraled like a coil spring and ran a mahagony bokken through its length. It remains a beautiful training tool to demonstrate the spiral.

Something to ponder is that the first
page of Morihiro Saito Sensei's 1973 work "Aikido: Vol 1/ Basic Techniques" shows the triangle as A, the circle as I, the square as KI, comprising AIKI.

Why do you think that is????

Gil Gillespie

Dennis Hooker
15th June 2000, 22:16
You’re born of the triangle
You live on the circle
You die on the square

Sho Ha Ri; You find this concept within the triangle, circle and square of your life as a person, and as a student. The triangle is the strongest structure known to man possibly the strongest structure both physically and spiritual in the universe. The circle is completeness and takes you from beginning to end and the square is the seasons of your life as a person and a budoka. You have the triangle within the circle within the square touching at key points. You should always know where in your life you are in relationship to three. Knowing where you are will help you understand what you should be doing in the now. Keeping you life in harmony with the forces of nature that surround it.