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Stéphan Thériault
22nd September 2000, 05:55
Just wondering wether it's used in koryu jujutsu. Or wether this is something that Kano came up with on his own? Thanks all.

Yamantaka
22nd September 2000, 12:50
Originally posted by Stéphan Thériault
Just wondering wether it's used in koryu jujutsu. Or wether this is something that Kano came up with on his own? Thanks all.

YAMANTAKA : Kano Sensei's Randori came from Kito-Ryu Jujutsu Ran o Toru (more or less "free practice").
Good Keiko

Neil Hawkins
23rd September 2000, 00:02
To my knowledge many styles utilised a type of randori, perhaps not quite as 'free' as the judo version but certainly an exchange of attack and defense outside of kata. Owing to the lethality of some of the techniques care had to be taken, but the restraining/locking techniques could not develop without randori style give and take.

I think that the kata had to be less structured previously. There are so many variables in unarmed combat that there had to be room to adjust and change to fit in with different opponents. Once the basics are taught and understood, the kata lose some of their value, but I must stress that this is only after many years of practice, kata is an integral and essential part of training.

Tsutsumi Hozan Ryu had a distinctive style of randori called 'reflex training' which consisted of the sensei indicating specific attacks against a defender who cannot see what's indicated. This developes combat conditioning, but allows the sensei to control what is going on. It is hard to say when it was introduced but I am told it was the reason why Tsutsumi Yamashiro no Kami Hozan split from the Nen ryu, so that he could develop this practice. The Kumiuchi that he came up with was what distinguished the school in the 15th and 16th centuries.

Regards

Neil

eman
23rd September 2000, 01:39
Is there anyone in Koryu Jujutsu who is currently doing randori?And if so could you please describe what it is like and its origins.
Thank You
Erik Desmond
Instructor
Shinken Bujutsu

[Edited by eman on 09-23-2000 at 09:29 PM]

Paul Steadman
24th September 2000, 09:38
Hi Erik,

If there are any Koryu Jujutsu schools out there that utilise Randori in their training (at least in the early stages) I would view them with suspicion! Some koryu dojo (eg. Tenshin Shinyo Ryu) do utilise randori or jiyu kumitachi with bokken (in the case of kenjutsu), but only after a thorough grounding in the kata. And as Neil said it is reflex training.

Kata is the main training method of koryu arts. D. Draeger and D. Skoss explain the reason for this in their respective books. Could you imagine joining the army, and having the drill sergeant issueing the recruits with M-16's and live rounds, and telling them to free-form train with each other? No Way! You commence with weapons drill, techniques, methods/tactics and later on strategy (ie: kata). All the best.

Regards,

Paul Steadman

eman
25th September 2000, 07:08
I didnt mean to imply that beginners do randori, of course there would be no techniques to try.Now on an intermediate level i would think other koryu arts would do randori.
Erik Desmond
Instructor
Shinken Bujutsu

MarkF
25th September 2000, 09:51
Hi Neil,
I don't think what you describe could be called randori. While there are different types of randori, and indeed some are not so freely done, what you do sounds just like what I do: attack drills, but no one, other than tori and uke (neither knows what the other will do), know how or sometimes, by whom, they are "attacked." This is good for upper levels of students to use uke's attack to unbalance himself, and tori reacting with a conditioned reflex. Beginners are not taught randori because they must know the kata of the waza, and then how to do it as in randori no kata.

Once ukemi is basically mastered, and good waza of a single throw, then randori can be instilled, but slowly.

As for kata "being integral," I agree one-hundred per cent, as no waza, as far as know, can be taught without, the very least, "pieces" of kata. There is a beginning, and a middle, but the end is up to you.:)

Judo venue is over. I would have liked to see Olympic sumo myself.:D

Neil Hawkins
26th September 2000, 02:14
Hey Mark, I did see some Olympic Sumo, about the only fight I saw televised here was a 100kg+ bout between a Cuban and some huge Hungarian or something, terrible judo, but passable Sumo! :D

There are a couple of different training methods we use at an advanced level that to me can be likened to randori, the first is where the attacker, performs only one specific attack, but the defender has to perform different defences each time. The next is the reverse, where the defender only does one defence and the attack changes. Finally there's our relfex training where both the attack and defence are unknown to anyone. The first two are relatively new additions to our training, and probably were added around the time that Judo was being developed (though I don't know for sure) the last is old.

My point about the kata being more flexible perhaps needs a little explaining, today most kata is extremely structured, the moves and timing are set. To me in the past the moves would still have been set, but the timing was always combative, ie not strike, one, two, three, withdraw, one, two, three, etc. It would have been up to the students to fit in with each other and not get in a rythm, this keeps it practical. The best illustration I have seen of this today is in SMR Jojutsu (Jodo) the Koryu versions of the kata (seitei version should be done this way to (IMO) but often aren't) rely heavily on the swordsman dictating the timing, the differences are minor to the observer but great if you're the one with the Jo.

Jujutsu Kata cannot teach effective technique without the ability to adjust interval and timing, everyone reacts differently to a lock or throw and so there needs to be this flexibility within the structure of the kata. But this needs to be controlled so only advanced students should train this way, it can very easily become a tussle and nothing beneficial is learnt.

Neil

MarkF
26th September 2000, 11:21
Well, Neil, as someone said sometime, and more than once, I think we are taking different paths up the same mountain. I wasn't really disagreeing, only that different people do things at different times. If judo were done exactly as instructed by Kano S., I would still be learning kata, and randori would only be a reward for doing kata correctly. Even after thirty seven years, actual time put in, and learning it exactly as he laid out (he always said judo should be done as he said and in the order he pronounced), not to mention the kenjutsu everyone thinks is missing from judo (well, it is mostly, but it still is in the syllabus), I would still be doing it exactly as you say, and by the numbers/steps.

Those who delve into kata and practice only that are either to be commended or hospitalized.;)

I've had too types of teachers, one who was educated in the military in where everything had a rythm to it, and a more traditional teacher who had someone demonstrate it, not saying anything, but doing a nage, for instance, slowly and as per kata, sped up, as in randori, and slowed again, then break up and practice the waza. Yet, I am still crazy after all these years.:D

BTW: Ross, thank you for your email, I responed last night.