Is karate really that bad ?

[Neuro]

I have practiced karate, kung-fu, judo, bjj and boxing for about 17 years and I consider all these arts very effective forms of self-defense, each one on its own "battlefields".

Recently, I have read a lot of forums where people have a very bad impression of karate.

I practiced Wado-Ryu and progressively advanced within the system, until reaching the full contact, standing and ground sparring stage.

We had friedly "gashukus kumites" with other "dojos", who practiced Shotokan, Goju-Ryu, Uechi-Ryu and Kyokushin styles, and our team always did very well in all of them. We also faced 2 judo dojos and 2 kung-fu kwoons (Choy li Fut and Monkey Style) with similar results.

Please note these were not tag tournaments, but full contact sparring with groundwork permitted, with fighters wearing no protection, except for a thin cushion glove. The only restrictions were strikes to the eyes, throat and joints. Joint manipulation and locks were permitted, as well as throws, sweeps, striking standing and on the ground, elbows and knees.

Therefore, I find that my karate training was very valuable.

Some of my friends only practiced that (Wado) for many years and still they were and are very effective fighters.

Is karate really that bad ?
Why ?


===

Alexandre "Neuro" Wyllie

[MarkF]

Some people have negative things to say about judo as well, though it usually stops at a made up term (and, as this is not grammatically correct either, it fits with your signature) "sport judo," watered down, "it hasn't been the same since it became an Olympic sport" and other things, but that is usually the extent of it. A few do inflate their true grade, but there really isn't a reason to, especially if you think it not to be "real budo." In fact, read enough forums and other web sites dedicated to budo or Korean or Chinese combatives, you'll find knocks against judo as anything but martial or budo. Researchers and writers who say, for example "judo is so far outside the term budo that..." (this was written by judoka, researcher and instructor, Maj. Donn Draeger), and while it is credible to an extent, it isn't exactly correct, either. It is the person who makes what you do what it is, not what others say about it or what they have experienced themselves.

In the way you put it, well sure, karate or probably better said "kuroddy" does conjure up scenes of Chinese Opera and Chambara, "tag" style tournaments, and full contact-style ones. I recall telling someone some years ago that I was a judo player, and he asked "Didn't they change the name to Martial Arts or something?"

The fact is that they all do. If you are injured seriously enough that you go to an ER (emercency room or urgency room), remember the look on their faces when you tell them you received the injury from "martial arts." I do (recall). I can remember the last time I cracked or dislocated a couple of ribs, the doctor asking me repeatedly (he saw the rest of my bruises) "so you got all this from kuraddy?" Three times he asked, and three times I corrected him, but it didn't matter, it was karate. He was nisei or sansei, as well.

Everything is karate for those outside it. Less than one percent of Japanese including Okinawans and the other Ryukyu islanders, do any form of budo, therefore most either have a negative take on it or they don't know what it is. I'd say that percentage is pretty close in most countries, probably less than one percent describes any place you prefer to choose. In the grand scheme of things, MA are probably in the less than important category to most.

But is karate that bad in the way you mean it? My answer would be 'yes.' If you have to look under karate to find a iaido school, or even a judo or jujutsu school then karate has a bad reputation. I don't mean actually doing karatedo, I mean everything any particular "outsider" has about any combative in general, especially those of Asian and South Pacific origin, is all karate. Those who name themselves soke, grandmaster, even sensei, don't make it any easier to accept. Those who insist they created their own style, call it karate-jutsu, and are automatically "the founder" of what is most likely a few badly performed kata with some self-defense lifted from a true combative, don't help. For those who train in any combative, and especially those with no real time relationship to today's battlefields, it is all "kurroddy."


Mark

[Budoka 34]

Alexandre,
From my experience, most people that have a poor image of karate have only been exposed to the surface of the art(block/punch/kick), and thru less than expert instructors or karateka.

Many people feel that karate is one dimensional.
I think possibly One reason your school does so well is the style(Wado ryu). Otsuka Sensei studied jiujitsu as well as karate and so his art(compared to other "Japanese" karate)has the appearance of depth.

I know, I know, karate has always had these skills(throws,chokes, locks,etc.) but only recently have karateka become more aware of the depth of their own art.

Just a thought, I may be wrong.

:smilejapa

[Casper Baar]

i.m.o.
The depth of the art is not only found in grappling vs. striking. Grappling and striking are tools to choose from and yes it's better to have a full toolbox. But getting to a point where you can use one off these tools takes much practice. Using evading movements of the body in such a way you end up in a position where you can use a tool and your opponent can't is not easily done. I’m still having great difficulty with learning some off the yakusoku kumites in wich these principles are taught in wado-ryu. But at least there are people in the dojo I train at who can use these movements outside of the predescribed exercises.

There seems to be a lot off karate (at least around here) where keeping someone at a distance is practised a lot but closing the distance, entering, evading etc. is not. Although it is emphasized in our training I don’t believe wado-ryu has a copyright on the usage off these principles.

There are lot’s off karateka’s that can find a hole in your defence and throw some punches or kicks trough it. There are some karateka’s that have the nasty habit of popping up where they are no good to you at all.

Perhaps empty karate is learning techniques and full karate is practising techniques to learn the principles behind them?

So maybe it was a compliment when they said I'm full of it?

[Guts]

Coming from an internal martial arts background, I'm used to hearing people make fun of Karate. That's how it always goes though isn't? One style makes fun of another. In the end, I think it's BS. If you train hard with a focus, you'll get positive results.

So no, I don't think Karate is bad.

[Prince Loeffler]

Originally posted by Neuro
Is karate really that bad ?
Why ?



Jeez ! Alexandre ! You just got to stop hanging out and listening to those TKD guys:D

Seriously, I personaly believe that there is no such thing as Bad karate, only bad karate teachers.

[larsen_huw]

I have no wish to enter a MMA tourement and the average streetfight/bar room brawl takes place between people who have no knowledge of grappling holds and locks.

I know enough karate to not pick fights with anyone and that running away or talking your way out of a fight are the best forms of self defense.

On the one occasion talking and running were not options (gang of thugs on the underground) i took bit of a beating, but was able to stay on my feet. I suppose it was a self defense nightmare, 6 of them, and me, and nowhere to run. I was able to protect my head and upper torso, while still doing enough to make them run away at the next stop.

Once you become competent at an art, you adapt it to suit you and your situation. I've never felt restricted by not knowing any ground techniques.

[reeves]

Alexander,

Let me get my own two cents in. I feel that the main problem with karate today is that there are too many sensei's in America that do not have enough knowledge to correctly teach the high-level aspects of the art. After all, it is the higher-level aspects of any martial art that make it effective.

Fortunately, I had the opportunity to train under a Sensei who traveled annually to Okinawa to train under the Grandmaster of the style. The karate that I learned from this instructor was very much different then other dojos that I had been to in the past. The main difference was the focus on combat applications within the kata, light and fast stances, and "yes" soft movements.

I personally believe that karate is a very competent art, but you need to be in a training circle that is close to the source to be exposed to higher levels of the art.

--
Matt Reeves

[Jake McKee]

Matt brought up some good points. Most Americans are only exposed to "American Karadee". Karate has become the catch phrase for all martial arts, expecially the neighborhood franchise McDojo.

I started out in Shotokan and moved on for my own reasons, but I wouldn't worry what anyone else thought about the art I was practicing. It's more about the individual's commitment. Shugyo is the important aspect of self development in the martial ways, imho.

Jake McKee
www.budovideos.com

[MartialArtist]

One of the few absolute truths in the martial arts is that there is no superior style

Add restrictions, water it down, making it marketable, or anything for that matter is when it starts faltering

[MarkF]

Originally posted by Guts
Coming from an internal martial arts background, I'm used to hearing people make fun of Karate. That's how it always goes though isn't? One style makes fun of another. In the end, I think it's BS. If you train hard with a focus, you'll get positive results.

So no, I don't think Karate is bad.

Karate is just the code word for martial arts. It isn't karate it is a lot of things, but everything is karate. Didn't you know that?

I recall about a year ago, going to the ER to get a couple of ribs x-rayed, with the bruises I had, no one, not anyone even when correcting them, ever mentioned anything but karate. The doctor, at least three times: So you got all this in karoddy (he was Chinese)? Every time, I said no. It didn't matter. The look on the faces were the kind when you are writing intently about an interesting and fun subject,and just when you have put the hook into your essay, someone says that it was nice, but we are talking about pine cones, and you throw your pencil down. Gawd, pine cones, and then that look.

It doesn't matter what it is, it is all karate to many. The problem is, though, we do it to ourselves. I don't mean everyone, but the guys people notice are those who run phony schools, charge an arm and a leg, no one really learns anything and everyone has a black belt. But not until you've learned one-hundred kata and waded through 19 kyu grades, each one costing a small fortune. Then, you find out it is BS, the guy down the street charges twenty bucks a month where you can train in every class five days a week, and do three kata, learning more in three months than the two years you spent getting a black belt, and you're still a white belt.

And if you do koryu, well, try explaining that to someone who has it in their had that you do karate but you don't have your black belt yet because you have a kyoju dairi or equivalent. It isn't worth it anymore, to discuss it.

No one (well, I'm using absolutes but I think most get the drift) makes fun of another's budo, it is usually those on the outside. Those who do make fun at the expense of someone doing something different, well, it is still within the same sphere. Just don't expect the guys who think pine cones are all the same, but has never used one to build a fire, to be on your side.

To answer the topic question, yes, some people train in styles of karate which are just plain BS. Look up Buke ryu karatejutsu. They are that bad in some.


Mark