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Black
7th August 2003, 18:05
I have heard a lot about Hakutsuru and even seen someone demonstrate Soken's Hakutsuru once or twice. I am just wondering if anyone has any information about people still doing Hakutsuru in Okinawa?

It seems that there are lots of people doing it in North America and so I just wondered who knows about what the status of Hakutsuru is in Okinawa.

Just curious :)

Tim Black

reeves
12th August 2003, 21:32
Tim,

I have also seen several people in the U.S. practice Hakutsuru. These karate-ka belonged to the Shorinkan which doesn't list Hakutsuru as one of their official kata. Also, I have never heard of Hanshi Nakazoto performing this kata. This leads me to believe that they are learning this form from some other lineage. Is this form coming from the Matsumura Seito lineage?

Thanks,
Matt Reeves

Pavel Dolgachov
13th August 2003, 09:32
As I know, there was Hakutsuru from Gokenki line. Matayoshi Shimpo studied under him. I saw video with his perfomance. Many of Matayoshi's students practise it.

Paihequan
19th August 2003, 07:14
I would seriously doubt anyone claiming to teach Okinawan Hakutsuru nowadays as the subject has become so muddied by those claiming to know the art.

As I understand it, the so-called "Crane" of the Matayoshi style is actually based upon and or contains it's connection to the Golden Rooster/Chicken style of boxing.

Soken Hohan's Hakutsuru is I believe his own creation based upon his experiences with Taiwanese Crane Boxers who visited Okinawa (in particular the Feeding Crane and Playing Crane styles seem most evident).

I seriously doubt that any Westerner teaches and fully understands this form.

On Okinawa I believe that Mitsuo Inoue and Kosei Nishihira may hold the Soken Hakutsuru.

Black
19th August 2003, 22:48
Thanks to everyone for their replies, especially to Ron for that last post regarding Soken's Hakutsuru in Okinawa.

I assumed that there would be a deep lineage in Okinawa due to the sheer numbers of Hakutsuru practitioners in the United States.

Ron - do you have any further information on the Hakutsuru teachers that you mention in your post above?

Thanks,
Tim Black.

Black
20th August 2003, 16:10
Ken -

Thanks for your reply. Do you happen to know who those teachers in Okinawa were that taught the Canadians you know?

Sincerely,
Tim Black

Paihequan
21st August 2003, 02:27
I have seen Hokama Sensei's Hakutsuru and it is very much connected to the "Playing Crane"

There is a Goju Hakutsuru as taught by Toguchi and made up of various Goju-related forms.

Honestly, I feel that although there may be quite a few "crane" people in the States, few really understand the art in the deeper sense. Many have tacked on a "crane" form here or there to add something mystical to their teachings. Others have taken existing Chinese/Taiwanese crane forms and severely modified them to suit their own agendas. They lack knowledge of the Ji Shou Fighting Applications, the four essentials or poems of Crane-Fist, the two-person drills, the Qigong aspects. Most simply walk through forms thinking they are doing "White Crane"

Most within Matsumuru Seito seeks out the "Holy Grail" of the Hakutsuru not realising that it really has little connection to the actual Matsumura lineage and more of a connection/origin to Soken Hohan himself.

Nishihara and Mitsuo Inoue do not teach publically.

Paihequan
23rd August 2003, 08:23
Lee, Do I know you? Have you ever met or trained with me? I don't think so. Please keep your ill-informed comments to yourself.

Yes I am a "Journeyman" as it is the journey that matters!

Good to see that you practice E-Budo's rules such as treating all members with respect. Sorry mate but I'll not buy into your so obvious petty political aganda

All the best;)

Paihequan
23rd August 2003, 09:08
Looking at the subject of discussion and not the personalities involved, it's noted that those who have studied the Matsumura Seito (Machimura Suidi) art all have a different version of the Hakutsuru passed on by Soken Sensei.

Some have made modifications or alterations to the pedagogy of the transmission of this form based upon their own experiences (or lack of) in relation to the actual form. Many of them cross-trained with others who lay claim to the form and have taken away from this and added of their own experiences.

Of interest is the form as practiced in Argentina which bears little similarity to that of Soken on film. It, while also touted as being the one "Matsumura Hakutsuru" bears a very strong resemblance to the Matayoshi Kingaryu..

Add to this equation the various off-shoots of "Hakutsuru Sho Chu & Dai" as well as the so-called "Hakutsuru-Mei" or "Wife's Kata" and one soon comes to see just how muddied the Matsumura Hakutsuru waters have become.

To be truly representative Paihe or Crane-Fist the art must contain at it's heart the Hequan Quan Jue which revolve around four main principles: T'un, Chen, Fou, and T'u. Without these, one cannot claim that the art represented is Crane.

In addition, Djuan Sen is of paramount importance and brings the evasive principles of the Crane into play. On a deeper level Djuan Sen involves "Body-Change" and "Change-Body" ----- two entirely different yet no less important principles inherent in all Crane-Fist.

In addition Crane-Fist embodies and utilises Djuan Jin, Rou Jin, Ting Jin, Tang Jin as amongst it's fundamental aspects as I am sure that the learned Lee (Troof) will agree.

Crane-Fist is far, far more than just a few forms that imitate a crane.

Best wishes ;)

Paihequan
24th August 2003, 08:53
As stated Lee (Troof) I will not enter into your politics. I am only interested in the discussion taking place not the personalities involved. You know very little about me or my current studies and associations. You say a great deal about yourself each time you post.

Ken, Thank you for your posts.

Yes the art of Ti has had an influence on the cultural exchange of Chinese art on Okinawa that much is true. Sadly much has been lost or modified.

A further modification has taken place when the arts went across the pond to America and other countries. Sometimes this modification has been inytentional sometimes it has taken place inout of reflection of the personalities involved.

This has happened to the Matsumura Hakutsuru. One need only look at Nishihira's Matsumura in comparison with others to note a very strong difference. The high Crane Stepping methods and focus on the internal aspects in comparison with others who do a more rigid Nihon-styled type of movement.

We have Sandoval, Lindsey and his one time associate Chandler, then we have Master Kise, Coffman, Garrett and many others. Most of these people lay claim to the Matsumura Hakutsuru but each teach it differently. Which one is right? None as they are all teaching their own interpretation based upon their various experiences. To say only one of these individuals has the one true Matsumura Hakutsuru is wrong.

Body-Change and Change-Body are two entirely different concepts within traditional Paihemen/Paihequan. One deals with the change in position in relation to the opponents action. The other deals more with causing an change in the relationship that exists between the defender and opponent on a very high level . This is directly related to the Huagong principle and action.

All White Crane-Fist forms embody the following "essentials": Sinking, Swallowing, Floating, Spitting, Lifting, Rebounding, and most importantly of all Softness ("Rou-Jin") and Listening ("Ting Jin" …. reading the opponents intentions and energy). The main characteristics of Paihequan are relaxed movements, flapping, whip-like snapping, shaking, and characteristic sound of breathing (very, very different from karate's Ibuki). This is most evident in the Calling Crane of Great Master Ruan Dong of Fuzhou, Fujian China.

Traditionally, there are very few actual Crane-Fist forms (Goon / Quan / Kata), although modern schools have devised and or resurrected numerous variations via the medium of research. A unique feature of the Crane system is the manner in which these empty-hand and weapon forms are designed. The traditional forms are comparatively short and revolve around the development of the practitioner's energy. The emphasis is on understanding the essence, the essentials and the foundations of each form. Practice of the forms stresses long, loose movements that maximize speed and chi flow as an end product.

With respect to all!;)

Paihequan
25th August 2003, 00:59
Lee (Troof): This discussion is about Hakutsuru not about you or me. Please refrain from the politics and try to keep the discussion on track. Remember one of the basic rules of E-Budo is to treat your fellow members with respect.

I'm sorry for using Chinese quanfa terms which you may not understand. However, as the Matsumura Hakutsuru is said to have its origins in the Chinese arts (Mainly Shihequan) I would think that these terms apply.

I have seen the Matsumura of Sandoval & Lindsey. I like the way in which Sandoval moves and his Bunkai is very good. He is precise and applies a great deal of internal energy in his art. Lindsey moves a little more looser than most but carries the art reasonably well. He moves in a fashion similar to Ted Lange also of the Matsumura tradition. That is loose within the movements, not as precise as the others. Chandler moves in a stiff almost robotic manner. Nishihira and his senior student Toma moves completely different from those mentioned above. In fact if anything they (Nishihira) move in a very Chinese manner, high Crane stepping through a marsh styled stepping methods and very relaxed internal delivery of the tools of their art. Very different indeed!

Each persons pedagogy is totally different. I have seen each of the above (with the exception of Nishihira) demonstrate their "versions" of the Matsumura Hakutsuru and other so-called "Hakutsuru" forms. For me the closest to that done by Soken is Sandoval, yet even his form is different from Soken's.

I have Yabiku Takaya demonstrating his take of the form on private video and it too is very close to Soken's form.

My point is this: One or two forms does not make Crane-Fist.

My best wishes to you.;)

Paihequan
25th August 2003, 06:06
Ken (Kenzo),

No I did not receive your e-mail. Please re-send it to my direct e-mail address:

tsuruken@austarnet.com.au

Looking forward to hearing from you!

hjnorris
26th August 2003, 02:30
Gentlemen,

May I solicit your educated opinions regarding the three Hakutsuru forms performed by John Sells' and for sale on his website at http://www.martialsource.com/cranevideos.htm?

I would very much like to hear your opinions.

Yours,

Henry Norris
Raleigh, NC USA

Don Roley
26th August 2003, 06:56
Originally posted by Paihequan
Honestly, I feel that although there may be quite a few "crane" people in the States, few really understand the art in the deeper sense.

Excuse me,
On what experiences do you base your observation and conclusion?

I ask because it seems relevent for the conversation because you base what you say on your experiences, so it would be nice to know what they are. Do you have a lot of experience in the subject matter? Enough to make a conclusion like the one you state above?

I did a quick check, and it seems that Patrick McCarthy's opinion of you is rather low. To be exact, he made this comment on e-budo.


If I thought that they knew anything about Tomari Te, or primary research, I wouldn't have needed to ask you in the first place. Heck, these guys believe that Ron Goninan is an expert!!!!!!!!!


Ouch!!

It may be because of what you did to him that required you to write a letter of apology. I found that as well.



From: Ron Goninan
To: Patrick McCarthy
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2003 12:14 PM

To Mr. Patrick McCarthy,
Please find enclosed my sincere letter of personal apology for the years of slander, underhanded behaviour and plagiarizing your copyrighted work.
Having long suffered a lack of self-esteem, I have always wanted to be something I was not. An inflated ego fueled my ambition to seek out the kind of mail-order recognition that I could easily use to establish a guise of importance, made me feel important. Coming from a small community in country NSW, this worked particularly well and made me appear as if I were a big fish in a small bowl. Jumping from style to style over the years presented an opportunity for me to misrepresent my actual experience with each new instructor I met. So used to this did I become that I even began to believe it myself. Writing articles for martial arts magazines helped to generate a little more publicity, which not only solidified my opinion of myself it also gave me another way with which to accredited myself. My martial arts studies have been both diverse and dotted with false claims of outlandish rank from un-credible sources. I actually purchased a *Soke* rank from Rod Sarconoski's Juko-kai for $1500, and then several years later accepted an 8th dan Hanshi license from a complete charlatan in Okinawa named Takaya Yabiku, after only ever training with him once. It's probably of little interest to you, but this long and lonely road has finally caught up to me and I am now choosing to expose all, in an effort to escape the enormous chain anxiety that is negatively effecting every aspect of the life I truly want to live.
I have knowingly carried out self-aggrandizing, unscrupulous and underhanded activities all in an effort to establish a reputation for myself, undermine your good name and protect my untenable background. I now regret this greatly. Such activities have included making pseudonym e-mail addresses in order to praise myself and criticize you, deliberately plagiarize your copyrighted material and present it as if it was my own, undermining your enviable reputation, and fabricating a history that did not accurately reflect my true martial arts background.
I would like it to be known that I am renouncing all the derogatory comments that I have either said or written about you. It was just plain wrong and, as untrustworthy as I have been in the past, I am now appealing to your compassion to forgive me for my reprehensible actions.
In truth, I am a great admirer or your accomplishments within the field of the martial arts and have, like so many others, been inspired by your work. I greatly admire your way of doing things, your research, the way you write, and the way in which you operate your organization. You've really had more of an influence on me then you may know. In a great many ways I have set you as a personal idol of mine. I idolized your work and the respect that was afforded to you and often wished to "be just like you." I guess that this is fairly evident. The problem was the way that I (incorrectly) set about to model my own life on yourself and your own research.
It is my sincere hope and desire that you will accept my apology. Whatever hardships I am presently undergoing are purely the results of my own doing and my family have suffered enough shame and heartbreak as a result of my deplorable actions. I beg that you accept this and allow me the opportunity to work towards coming clean and "making it right again," without the threat of litigation looming over my head.
Sincerely,
Ron Goninan

So if I understand it, when you were facing litigation you said that you basically knew nothing and did things like misrepresent your rank, buying rank and training under known frauds. Now that the litigation is not looming over your shoulder, you seem to be making statments that indicate that you have the experience and knowledge to judge what others do as if you were an expert in the field. As you can see, your background in this matter is a matter of concern since you base what you say not on facts that can be chekced by others, but on your judgement which is based on experience. So your experience is a matter of discussion for now.

Troll Basher
26th August 2003, 10:11
Originally posted by Paihequan
I have Yabiku Takaya demonstrating his take of the form on private video and it too is very close to Soken's form.


:rolleyes:
Oh brother!.........Yabiku Takaya....... for those of you not in the know, is the man that sells fake Hohan Soken Certificates down in Okinawa.
He is also the man Ron claims on his own board as well as Martial Talk to have trained "Extensively" with when in actual fact it was more like a couple hours for a few days.

Ron has been an uneducated pest on this board and some others. And for questioning him on certain aspects of his training and knowledge on those boards I received a bombardment of spam email from him to the extant that I had to block several of his email accounts.

Paihequan
27th August 2003, 04:04
To answer:

Yes I did make some mistakes in the past for which I have atoned for directly with those concerned. I have moved on. Patrick McCarthy ,I beleive has also moved on. Mr. McCrathy said that I would now be able to movve forward from my past. Sadly it seems only people like you that won't allow me to move forward by dredging up very old and long since dealt with issues as if they seem to be something of great value to cling on to. I have made my mistakes. I have dealt with them directly with those I involved. The issues were dealt with and accepted and both parties have long since moved forwards. You have for whatever it is worth, my sincere sympathies as yours must be a terribly sad life indeed.

Interesting that you people slam me for a past association with Yabiku Takaya when one Ron Lindsey (also mentioned in this thread) paid quite a large sum of money to one Chuck Chandler for an 8th Dan rank from guess who ..... Yabiku Takaya! I since believe that Mr. Lindsey has moved on from this and gone on to better things.

Why is it that if he makes a mistake it's okay and well accepted by all?

As stated, I'm here to discuss the arts not the personalities. Is this possible on this board? One would hope so. I am not here to slam anyone but to simply share my views with other like-minded poeople. I respect the rights and opinions of all and do not wish to get involved in a long-winded argument over long dead and dealt with past issues. If one wishes to discuss past issues with me fine. My private e-mail is tsuruken@austarnet.com.au and I welcome hearing from you.

Hi to Robert. When are you coming back to Martial Talk? You have been missed.

Best wishes to all!;)

Don Roley
27th August 2003, 04:13
Excuse me Ron- could you answer my question about what ability you have that allows you to pass the judgement you have? You seem to have dodged that little question in your comments about other people.

Do you have a lot of experience in the matter as you now seem to be saying, or do you have only a little as your letter you wrote to MCCarthy to avoid a lawsuit would indicate?

Paihequan
27th August 2003, 04:27
Don Roley wrote:
Excuse me Ron- could you answer my question about what ability you have that allows you to pass the judgement you have? You seem to have dodged that little question in your comments about other people.

Do you have a lot of experience in the matter as you now seem to be saying, or do you have only a little as your letter you wrote to MCCarthy to avoid a lawsuit would indicate?

Hello Don,

Thank you for your question.

I have had a fairly interesting if not scattered background in the area of the martial arts commencing in January 1970 in the art of Shotokan Karatedo through to the time spent with Mr. Yabiku Takaya of Okinawa pursuing his Okinawan Tsuruken (two weeks in October 1995), Sifu Gu-Ping of Guangzhou Province, China and his student Mr. Fai and onwards to the present time. This includes the wonderful technical advice received from Sifu Yap Leong and Mr. Paul Wollos (Feeding Crane). These people have been most generous with their experience and directions for the future. In addition, I like many others, have embarked on serious research into the art of Crane-Fist, placing my hands on any and everything I could lay my hands on including numerous texts, videos, written documentation and yes seeking whenever and where ever possible to train with those in the know. I am no expert nor do I claim to be. I am a seeker and researcher and shall remain so for the rest of my life.

Our group is less of an association and more of a research / study group continually looking at the art of White Crane in all its forms.

At this current point in time I am working with an individual from Fuzhou, Fujian China and am currently in negotions to not only have this individual visit Australia but also for myself and a contingent from my school visit China to further our limited understanding of the art we seek. This is an on-going relationship yielding many positives.

During my involvement within the martial arts I like a great many others inflicted by this thing we call the "Human Condition", have made several mistakes which I regret and have sought to move onwards from.

I have taken a long, hard and honest look at myself and my dealings with others and to seek the opportunity to start anew with a clean slate.

I hope to continue to be a loving husband and father to my wife and children while actively pursuing the martial arts ideal with renewed vigor and integrity in all that I undertake from this moment forth. It is my sincere aim to continue to explore the martial arts unfettered by the politics, ego and other like-distractions normally associated with the martial arts world.

Don Roley
27th August 2003, 04:41
Originally posted by Paihequan
Hello Don,

Thank you for your question.

I have had a fairly interesting if not scattered background in the area of the martial arts commencing in January 1970 in the art of Shotokan Karatedo through to the time spent with Mr. Yabiku Takaya of Okinawa pursuing his Okinawan Tsuruken (two weeks in October 1995),

Excuse me if I stop you right here instead of going onto the rest of your post, but what the above says is direct counter to what you wrote to McCarthy. At the time when you were trying to convince him not to bring a lawsuit against you you said,


I actually purchased a *Soke* rank from Rod Sarconoski's Juko-kai for $1500, and then several years later accepted an 8th dan Hanshi license from a complete charlatan in Okinawa named Takaya Yabiku, after only ever training with him once.

So did you lie to McCarthy when you described your opinion of Yabiku Takaya as "a complete charlatan" and said you trained only once with him?

Paihequan
27th August 2003, 05:02
Don,

To reply I don't really wish to upheave past subjects but will answer your questions although I feel that perhaps they may be better suited to private discussion as this thread was /is not about me as such but Hakutsuru. With respect:

It is as written a fairly scattered background in the martial arts by my own admission. This is no different from a great many other seekers out there. Have I made mistakes, Yes! I freely admit this. Have I moved on ------ once again the answer is yes.

I was sadly associated with Mr. Yabiku for around 8 to 9 years having being introduced to him by Mr. McCarthy. I spent a period of two weeks on Okinawa (Sunshine Nagata, Naha-shi) training on average four to six hours per day with Mr. Yabiku. The training was intensive and at the time, of interest to me.

Sometime after I began to question Mr. Yabiku on several issues which did not gel with me. As a result I resigned from my association with him and left that part of my life behind me.

I only have the word of Mr. McCarthy and others regarding Mr. Yabiku's background and actions (sellling Soken certificates etc) as I never saw evidence of this during my time with him. In fact, he was at the time, very anti commercialism which I had found refreshing. This was to sadly change due to influences from his American Associates. Having said this, I do not doubt the word of Mr. McCarthy in regards to this subject.

As such, yes given what I now know, I regard Mr. Yabiku as not being honest in his dealings with myself and have moved on from this period, not retaining any of what he taught me.

I did spend time training under him so this is no lie and just becuase I now no longer feel that he was upfront and honest does not mean that I state I never knew the man nor had a past association with him. It is as it was.

I have as stated moved on.

I hope this goes some small way to answering your questions.

Look Don, in total honest, I have f@#%ed things up for myself in the past. I'm the first to admit this. I have made some terrible mistakes and have suffered for same. I have I believe atoned for those mistakes with those whom I transgressed against and have tried my level best to leave that all in the past and to move on and hopefully forward from all of this with a clean slate. In many ways I am thankful to Mr. MCarthy for allowing me this opportunity.

All I want is to share my views (even if they may seem to be different from others). I am NOT out to make out I'm some "expert" or anything like that. I simply want to learn and advance as not only one interested within the martial arts but as a person as well.

Don Roley
27th August 2003, 05:11
Originally posted by Paihequan
As such, yes given what I now know, I regard Mr. Yabiku as not being honest in his dealings with myself and have moved on from this period, not retaining any of what he taught me.

So why bother mentioning him when asked about your ability to judge what is and is not valid Hakutsuru? And why did you specifically say you only trained with him once in your letter to McCarthy and now the time seems to have increased by two weeks?

And you were facing a lawsuit just three months ago when you wrote that letter of apology. If you were sincere instead of just trying to avoid trouble, you would expect you to take some time off instead of immediatly jumping back into your old patterns of behavior.

Paihequan
27th August 2003, 05:49
Don,

The letter was actually drafted by Mr. McCarthy with all due respect.

It matters little to me about mentioning in the letter that I trained with Yabiku once for a two week period as this was the only time I did train with him ---- once.

I mentioned him as I have seen him do his version of the Matsumra Hakutsuru (along with the others). I even learnt if from him although I know longer retain the form. One thing to note is that during my time with him he insisted it was "Hohan Soken's Hakutsuru" and not Matsumura for whatever it may be worth. It simply meant that I believe that there are a great many people out there with a claim to the form ----- rightly or wrongly. I did not mention him as a means of pushing myself forward.

This issue is dead and buried. It seems something that others wish to cling to (sometimes obsessively so which is sad for them). Again I state that I have moved on.

I don't see how in sharing my own personal views regarding the subject of discussion that I am doing anything wrong to anyone?

I simply am stating things from my own personal perspective, that's all.

The act of discussion is such that it allows people the right to put forward their views and to share their own perspectives on the subject.

Perhaps it is because of my own past experiences that I view the subject with a grain of salt as I have seen a great deal pushed as being "Hakutsuru" that I have I guess, become a little jaded.

Tony Sandoval and Ron Lindsey are fine practitioners of their respective arts. I just don't know if their Hakutsuru is the one true real deal as the whole waters on this issue has been considerably muddied by thae actions of a few.

Don, thanks for the questions as it has allowed me to put forward my answers on this issue and move onward.

Don Roley
27th August 2003, 07:41
Originally posted by Paihequan
Don,

The letter was actually drafted by Mr. McCarthy with all due respect.

Oh I see now. Patrick McCarthy forged a letter of apology and signed your name.

I am sure many people will be bringing this to his attention and confronting him on his decietful acts.

Troll Basher
27th August 2003, 08:54
Originally posted by Paihequan
To answer:

Yes I did make some mistakes in the past for which I have atoned for directly with those concerned. I have moved on. Patrick McCarthy ,I beleive has also moved on. Mr. McCrathy said that I would now be able to movve forward from my past. Sadly it seems only people like you that won't allow me to move forward by dredging up very old and long since dealt with issues as if they seem to be something of great value to cling on to.

It is preciously due to the fact that you still pretend that you are some sort of “seasoned expert” that people won’t let this go. If you would act more like a student and less like the “Soke” you once pretend to be I think folks might see you in a more palatable light........until such time I think most folks just see you as “Soke-Gonads”.





Originally posted by Paihequan
Interesting that you people slam me for a past association with Yabiku Takaya when one Ron Lindsey (also mentioned in this thread) paid quite a large sum of money to one Chuck Chandler for an 8th Dan rank from guess who ..... Yabiku Takaya! I since believe that Mr. Lindsey has moved on from this and gone on to better things. Why is it that if he makes a mistake it's okay and well accepted by all?

Wouldn’t know anything about that.........however it is my understanding that Mr. Lindsey has actually spent some “serious” time training in several dojo........as compared to you which have spent considerable time beefing up your resume with bogus dan and soke ranks and have yet to train seriously with anyone for more than a couple of days. As far as I know Mr. Lindsey has never claimed he had such rank........unlike you who claim to have thrown out your rank because “rank means nothing to you”........when in fact your rank means nothing to anyone once they learn how you “earned” it.





Originally posted by Paihequan
Hi to Robert. When are you coming back to Martial Talk? You have been missed.


Martial Talk....You fit in there Ron.......the land of liars, Grand Sokes, and fakes that can say as they please because they have hypocrytical Admins and Mods.........don’t hold your breath on me returning.

Troll Basher
27th August 2003, 11:24
Originally posted by Paihequan
Don,

The letter was actually drafted by Mr. McCarthy with all due respect.


According to Mr. McCarthy it was not "drafted" by him........how do I know?
I just asked him today.

It was also notarized for you by Justice of the peace David Walker #8625652 for authenticity on 05/05/2003 in New South Wales.

Troll Basher
27th August 2003, 13:43
Originally posted by Kenzo
Tim Black I hope you find the answer to your original question somewhere amongst all this CRAP!


You may think its crap but there are certain people that pass themselves off as having been trained and having knowledge and then dishing out disinformation by the buckets full to the unknowing that produces a lot of the confusion in the MA world.
The sooner these people are spotted and then disregarded the better. There is nothing wrong with pointing out the potholes in the road to those that have never been down it before.

Speaking of which.........Mr. McCarthy might be someone to contact and ask the same original question to.

Troll Basher
27th August 2003, 14:38
Originally posted by Kenzo
Robert this is all old stale BULL$HIT that we have heard a million times. Why not start a seperate thread on Ron if you want but to keep hijacking other peoples threads is disrespectful You can search any thread where Ron has asked or answered a question and 100% of the time it turns into an attack Ron discussion. Its really getting old and boring!!!


Actually I was not the one to "hijack" this thread. However, I do agree that almost every thread Ron enters turns into the "Ron stop BULL$hitting us Show".
Someone posting here asked me if certain aspects that were brought up were true or not and I looked at what was said and responded.
The way I see it if Ron wants to poke his nose into a thread he should expect to get a rolled up newspaper swat on the nose because there are plenty of folks out there that are sick and tired of him.

Troll Basher
27th August 2003, 15:05
I know I will be.

Doug Daulton
27th August 2003, 16:03
As your moderator, you are all being told to knock this off. I find all of this tiresome. Moreover, that I have to come in and clean up after you about every six months is, frankly, embarrassing for all of you. Some of you are very much my sempai and need to behave accordingly, not like kids on a playground.

I've said it before and I will say it again ... take your personal attacks elsewhere. They do not belong here. If you feel strongly that someone is a charlatan, write up an official position statement and post it on your website. Then, include a link to the statement in your signature. I am willing to let that slide for several reasons.

1. It takes the debate offsite and does not disrupt ongoing discussions within this community.

2. It forces the author to take a considered, thoughtful approach to dressing down another person.

3. In doing so, it removes the "I am sorry, I lost my head." response when counter-challenged.

4. It shows one has the stones to take an official position on the issue/person and therein assume some personal risk (libel/slander claims) for passing on the information.

I hate bad budo and poseurs as much as the next guy. So, take them on if you must ... just don't subject everyone else in the room to it. This applies to both sides of this argument.

In short, take it outside and don't break the furniture in this family establishment. ;)

Regards,

Doug Daulton

PS: I am not deleting posts in this thread as folks need an example of what not to do.

Gene Williams
27th August 2003, 22:01
The White Possum thinks you should all quietly hang by your tails for a few days. Not you Doug.

Paihequan
28th August 2003, 01:42
To reply,

Robert, Lee etc, your attacks are personal and based on your own petty agenda and politics. It is flooging a long dead horse. I ask you to point out exactly when and where in this thread that I stated that I was an "expert". Show me one example of when I used the word!

No , all I did was put forward my views to which you try to read into things that you can use as some sort of attack upon my person. How saddening your life must be if all you can do is attack others for simply posting their views on a subject. Your actions speak volumes about yourself.


During all of these personalised and political attack upon myself, I have remained civil. I have answered the questions put forward to me and remained courteous to those in my repli=es. I would expect no less in return. We are adults not school yard children. Please conduct yourselves with some civility.

To clarify, Mr. McCarthy helped me with the draft of the letter in question. No problem with this He did not simply write it for me to sign.

Mr. McCarthy has my respect. He has moved on. I have moved on. End of the matter.

I made my mistakes and I atoned for same and moved on.

What makes me sick is the pathetic, single-minded attitude of the like that believes that a person is not entitled to make mistakes in their life, to atone for such mistakes with those concerned and to move onward.

Instead of constantly dragging up my past mistakes, take a good look at yourselves and ask if you have ever made mistakes yourselves from which you too have atoned and moved onwards. Look at your selves first.

I will comply with the Moderators request and will not lower this board or myself to the level of yourselves by prolonging this old, long dead issue. I am here to discuss the arts, not personalities.

Remember, treat your fellow E-budo members with respect. A simple rule to follow.

Doug Daulton
28th August 2003, 01:45
Now, this thread is locked. Please refrain from starting up elsewhere.