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CEB
7th August 2003, 19:58
What good is Kime? What do you think Kime is?

gmanry
7th August 2003, 22:52
I was thinking about this just yesterday.

I think that most of what is taught as kime is complete crap. This would be the muscular tension at the end of the technique at impact schlock. Of course, I was brought up on this for a lot of my early practice, but I figured out that it really doesn't work. This was slightly better than the snap your gee for aesthetics garbage, but I had seniors who seemed to think this meant something.

The reality is that any "tension" has to be applied just after impact. Also, it isn't tension, it is firmness, alignment and connection throughout the body. If it stops your penetration, don't do it. Kime comes with the follow through not the impact. This is the way, imo, to deliver maximum effect. This is the physical aspect of kime, which has been way over emphasized in most schools, imo.

Kime, to me, really speaks to your state of mind, and thus can become linked very quickly to kiai. Following through with the mind is very important I have found. I guess one could look at this as being the front end of zanshin. This gets into feeling and all that stuff that tends to make us macho karate types uncomfortable, so I think I will stop here.

Again, these were concepts that were invented to convey proper technique. Unfortunately they have been venerated to a degree that makes them separate from good technique, and I believe this is damaging to the development of technique.

So, to sum up, Kime has two components physical and mental, and is way overblown like most things with a Japanese or Okinawan word attached to them. Instead of admonishing students on kime, instructors would be better suited coming up with unique drills that help students experience the concept.

Gene Williams
7th August 2003, 23:00
I remember Kime. He was the little Japanese kid that lived down the street from me when I was in grammar school. He had a hell of a punch! Gene

Rob Alvelais
7th August 2003, 23:29
Kime = decisive. So, make the technique decisive. I'm sure that the value of that, is self-evident. As for the contraction at the end, it has great value when punching air. It helps to preserve the joint. When striking someone, let them stop your fist.

Rob

Gene Williams
8th August 2003, 01:42
Nicely put:smilejapa

Goju Man
8th August 2003, 01:47
Kime, I was taught was focus. Focus at the end of your technique, but I've found kime to mean other things as well. Like your state of mind during training, your "game face" as some put it, your deep concentration into what you are doing. I like Robs meaning also.

CEB
8th August 2003, 04:46
Yes, Yes. This is good. Well except Gene's fixation with little Japanese boys. :rolleyes:

I agree that the simultanous pulling of both the muscles the that propel the punch along with equalizing pulling of the antagonistic muscle groups stopping the punch saves the elbow joints when punching air.

I also think this tensing practice it is good for karate players who compete and train in an environment where they are not allowed to let their opponent or partner stop their punch.

When I first started in Shotokan I was taught this concept where the muscular tension at the end of the technique would increase its power. What it did do was probably save me from some bad hyperextended elbows since I was a spazzzz. We don't teach this tensing in our Goju Ryu. But I read an article and I am still reading it. I digesting the it sort of slowly. It has me think on things on a couple of different levels. I'll bring the article into discussion when I figure out exactly what I think of the article as a whole. My thoughts on it are still a work in Process.

I think this karate punching Kime stuff is to real fight punching what Kendo Ki Ken Tai Ichi is to cutting with a real sword. No matter what Kendo players may tell you strike with a Shinai you the Shinai don't cut. Show me a Kendo player who has learned to cut with a real sword and I bet you a dollar that they will agree with me. I guess I am bringing this up because I was having a conversation with a very wise karate sensei early this week and made a remark to me concerning Japanese Karate. "He said Japanese Karate is good. Once you take the Kendo out of it becomes like Okinawian Karate." Three days later I am just starting to grasp some of the words of wisdom that I thought I understood when he was first imparting them to me.

Any other thoughts on Kime. Thanks guys.

CEB
8th August 2003, 04:52
wrong button

gmanry
8th August 2003, 17:58
I think too many people in the US, at least, have grabbed on to Kime in the physical sense..."more hip!" etc., etc....

All this was done to emphasize to upper body centric westerners that the lower half is important, now you have karateka that will almost twist themselves in half using hip and nothing else.

The concept of kime has gone this route as well. What was once a checkpoint has now become the central tenet and has created a disbalance in the teaching methods and transmission of technique.

However, I got my aluminum foil hat on, and my transmission is just fine now.

I think the mental aspects of kime are more important as Gene and Rob have succinctly stated. At the same time, I think that the physicality of kime needs to be expressed by doing. Have people hit targets, a lot and show them why this way is better than that way for how ever many jelly beans under X conditions.

I don't punch air much anymore, but for beginners I feel Rob's statement is correct. It is a shame that so many "advanced" people never find out how to take off the training wheels.

CEB
8th August 2003, 18:10
What is it about the makiwara that helps you develop an effective punch? What does the makiwara teach you?

gmanry
8th August 2003, 21:11
For me, the makiwara taught me some decent skeletal alignment and some lessons about impact, follow through, and recovery ranges.

I think I agree with Elmar Schmeiser about the makiwara though, it eventually will retard your punching power. You will max it out eventually and then start putting in excess tension and other things creating an situation in your technique that you don't want. You can only penetrate so much on a makiwara until you start using unnecessary tension. So, either find a different type of makiwara to work other things or severely curtail your usage of it.

I mean, after banging on one for more than 10 years the only thing you will derive from it is satsifaction, which is fine, as long as you don't then develop technique that is only good on a makiwara, see above.

Now, I will be the first to admit that I didn't have much instruction in the use of a makiwara. I had some, I read a lot and paid close attention to what was said between the lines in those writings. That plus my own experience has led me to these conclusions.

I have actually been considering building some makiwara for the new house. I haven't hit one in a couple of years, at least, and students can benefit from them, even if I am not teaching them karate per se.

The funniest thing about my makiwara training was when I had one set on a short ridge of rock behind our house in WA. Picture a short strip of grass with a large rock wall dropping down. There was a little foot path about 3-4ft below the lip of the ridge. I started my practice and was playing with different levels of tension in my stance, arms, legs, etc. I hit the makiwara, got deflected to the side, across myself, and almost threw myself off the ridge. That was an eye opener for me, let me tell you. Note to self---makiwara can kill you.

I learned very quickly that the typical deep stance, dug in style of makiwara work I have seen has limited value. I started playing with very loose and fast punches and found they delivered much more bang for the buck. This is similar to what I think Gene and Rob are talking about and Mr. Schmeiser as well. Eventually, I couldn't hit it anymore because I was hitting a wooden object harder than my hand could take, no amount of "conditioning" was going to change that. Conditioning the hands with the makiwara is a bad idea anyway, keep it reasonably soft on the pad and firm in the plank.

For beginners the makiwara is crucial to some basic elements, perhaps. For the intermediate student it can be used to check stuff out occasionally, and the more advanced (very tentatively placing myself in that category) it is a nice thing for nostalgia or to just pound on in place of one's boss every once in a while.

RobertW
8th August 2003, 23:12
I sometimes look at it like this, when I am counting out basics in class, and stop counting suddenly, those who stop moving instantly have a better developed sense of kime than those who keep moving for a second.

Goju Man
9th August 2003, 01:25
Glenn, the makiwara is partially about conditioning, but more importantly for the Karateka, you learn to hit with force on a resisting object which is very small. If you add motion and footwork, like a lunge punch or stepping reverse puch, etc., your eye gets more keen because you're hitting a smaller object than a human torso or head. Mind you, you still must have proper body alignment when performing these techniques, much the same way a boxer uses a small double end bag, but withoout the power. The penetration of the makiwara is also a certain amount, not just whack it as hard as you can. usually about three inches I think. But the thing needed for all this is kime. (focus)

Markaso
11th August 2003, 05:56
In my training I have been taught two kinds of Chudan Seiken tsuki ( middle punch). One wass where your hand was fully turned at te point of impact. The other was where your hand had almost finished it`s turn at the point of impact and then you gave it a little turn. Both were taught with the idea of Kime. But before any of this was taught we were taught proper balance and Kihon ( the Basics ).
I was taught that Kime was the very focused concentraion when and after said punch was thrown.Not really a game face so-to-speak but more like the concentration and focus of Ki(inner energy)ofthat punch to one focal point. Yeah that sounds about right ..... from what I remember.Kind ofgetting old you know;)

CEB
11th August 2003, 22:58
Lets say that you are not a teacher only an old practitioner. Do you reach a point at which basics should be abandoned? If so, What point should this occur?

Some examples, I'll stick to Chudan Seiken punch. During Kihon Ido ( basic moving exercises) we teach beginners to step get their stance then punch. I see some 'experienced' practitioners who still do Ido this way. My boys' Shorin teacher is big on getting your stance, getting rooted, then executing the technique. I'll have to watch him more closely when he does kata to see if he executes his personal karate that way. I know when I step forward and punch the weapon gets there first. It happens naturally because the hands are quicker than the feet and this is good because the weight is still coming with the punch. Also since the feet has yet to hit a 'stance' there is a falling force elent involved in the execution of a mid level punch as well as a linear force and rotational force element.

When we first teach a standing basic mid level punch to a beginner we teach him to punch to his own solar plexus just like he was looking in a mirror. I don't like this method but it was the way I was first taught. I would prefer to teach right off the bat to punch with proper shoulder alignment but I'm worried the beginners would start throwing their punches all sorts of directions. Its hard enough to get beginners to realize just where their solar plexus is sometimes. Many of them seem to think it is much higher than it really is. Any thoughts on this from people who teach Karate?

How about Kihon kata such as Pinan 3-5. Let us say that you have no need to teach the art. You only need to develop your own karate skill. Do you abandon Pinan 3-5 once you learn Chinto, Paisai, and Kusanku. If not what purpose do they serve that can't be better served by practicing the KoDo?

Have a good week. I'm going to train with freinds in Ohio for a few days. Going to take the family along and catch some sites when I'm not in the dojo and hopefully catch a Mudhens game. Everybody take care.

RobertW
12th August 2003, 00:29
I always teach basics. Right from the beginning of our system right up to what my students are working on. My teacher does the same with me. I do Pinan and Kihon and the rest every time I train. It's part of our workout and is part of us. I have some pretty strong students and I stroingly belielve that thewy are as good as they are due to basic basic basic. Same as myself though, I think we need to always practice even the most basic of techniques.

:smilejapa

Goju Man
12th August 2003, 03:21
Ed, the basics of any martial art is to be practised always. The art is built around the basics. Boxers, for example always train the basics. It's getting really good at your basics that your art flourishes. I don't do much Goju now, but still, my punch was just slightly behind my sliding foot planting in my stance. Of course, in actual fighting it may be the punch reaches first with the feet following, but in training, I usually landed in my stance before completing the punch. However, when it was taught to the lower ranks, it was exaggerated more and the stance was well ahead of the punch.

CEB
18th August 2003, 16:50
Different Kata within the same ryu have a different feel and teach differing underlying concepts. Sometimes the feel of a kata changes as a practitioner grows in experience. Does everyone agree with this?

Shitoryu Dude
18th August 2003, 17:22
Kata certainly changes as you gain experience - that is one of the best/easiest ways to tell how long they have been doing it.

:beer:

CEB
19th August 2003, 03:10
First off. I'm not being critical of Karate-Do. I teach a Karate-Do and I believe in the virtues of propagating Karate-Do.

IMO, The approach to modern karate is basically opposite from what it once was. Now students are taught a single set of basics. Then they take these beginner basics and apply them to all of their kata. If the kata teaches different concepts and a different feel for doing things then does it make sense that they should teach the same basic techniques? I think the old way was to learn a kata then you learned the basics of that kata. I think this is why the legends talk of people spending so much time on one form. An example from our syllabus would be front kick and kata Saifa and kata Shisochin. The basic front kick we teach to beginners more resembles the Saifa front kick. The Shisochin front kick is very different animal though most people perform the same basic type of front kick in both forms. I did when I was first taught how to do Shisochin. A basic karate kick just isn't that effective in my opinion. Remember when the PKA first started up and the karate guys started kickboxing. Hell they had to have a minimum number of kicks per round rule. If the kicks were effective the rule wouldn't have been necessary. That's because there just isn't that much power in the 'lift your knee up high first' kick.

IMO the methodology applied to Judo to make it safe was also applied to Karate. It is kind of a pain in the butt to have to relearn the techniques in the advanced forms taught earlier in the syllabus but it isn't in the best interest of the students to teach them how to hurt someone. It is in their best interest to teach them how to protect themselves but not how to apply maximum damage from atemi waza. Sometimes you have big or aggressive students in the dojo who are like wolves among sheep or sometimes accidents just happen. It takes a while to accurately determine the quality of a man who wishes to be your student. A teacher has a responsibility to not teach people who should not be taught, IMO. By teaching safer atemi waza we only get broken noses or bad bruises when dojo incidents occur instead of seriously hurt students.

Goju Man
19th August 2003, 12:34
Ed, the problem I have with that is there are many techniques not covered in the kata. My opinion is that they probable evolved after the origination of the kata. But how do you teach say a mawashi geri or sokuto geri? You can call upon the "hidden" technique theory but the student has nothing to draw on exept what the teacher now shows him, not what's in the kata but what he has shown him. This is where the kihons come in. If you don't have a mawashi geri in your kata, you need the kihons to be able to show it. But this is exactly my problem with the traditional arts, if it is useful enough to be included in the kihons, why not modify kata?

CEB
19th August 2003, 16:12
Ed, the problem I have with that is there are many techniques not covered in the kata. My opinion is that they probable evolved after the origination of the kata. But how do you teach say a mawashi geri or sokuto geri? You can call upon the "hidden" technique theory but the student has nothing to draw on exept what the teacher now shows him, not what's in the kata but what he has shown him. This is where the kihons come in. If you don't have a mawashi geri in your kata, you need the kihons to be able to show it. But this is exactly my problem with the traditional arts, if it is useful enough to be included in the kihons, why not modify kata?


You know how we teach it, through kihon. But, the same kind of teaching approach exists with these add-on techniques. You are right about the round kick. Sokuto Geri can be found in some versions of Seisan but it is true that the round kick was brought into the system after the our kata had been pretty much established.

The round kick isn't part of Goju proper but I think most of us teach it. But look at the round kick we teach in Kihon. It is usually the cock the leg bring it around point the knee toward the target then fire kind of kick. That kick is pretty, but I don't know if I could break any ribs with that kick or not. The round kick I do now isn't done that way. It is sort of a half round half front kick where the weapon ( ball of foot or toe if I'm wearing cowboy boots) comes from the floor and goes straight to the target. I used that kick once and it can hurt people but we don't teach it to beginners in kihons. We teach the pretty one. The pretty is nice because it is alot easier to surface strike with that one. Ed's round kick is hard to control if you put the body into it.

I don't think I would ever adovcate modifying the existing kata. The existing kata teach the art. The kata is the art. But I think you can only learn the kata through kumite and kakie, I believe this is an important point. If I would change the actual techniques (not the way techniques are executed, those change over time) I am afraid I would lose things. I aint no meijin, I'm lucky if I can find my car keys in the morning let alone purposely change the kata of the world's finest martial art. I have no problem with creating new forms if that what works for people. I think the forms need to be based on sound waza that comes from real 2 man practice. What I have seen of some of the Ashihara kata is more impressive than the WKF kata I've seen. It seems to have more soul, I see more fight in it.

All this is just ramblings and opinions of a student. My views in no way represents anything of importance.

Have a good week

Rob Alvelais
19th August 2003, 16:59
Originally posted by Goju Man
This is where the kihons come in. If you don't have a mawashi geri in your kata, you need the kihons to be able to show it. But this is exactly my problem with the traditional arts, if it is useful enough to be included in the kihons, why not modify kata?

First, some of the crescent kicks in kata are often applied as a roundhouse kick.

As for modification of the kata, don't. Here's why. When you change the kata, you potentially lose some information that was "coded" (for lack of a better word), in it. So, potentially, you're not adding to your body of knowledge. Sometimes the knowledge that's encoded in the kata doesn't become apparent until much later. So, if you alter it now, you could lose that discovery that may have come later. Why not instead of modifying the kata, create a new one? You'd be adding to your body of knowledge, instead of potentially not realizing any net gain. You'd also be in good company, as that's what Tetsuhiko Asai did. He thought that the 26 kata in the Shotokan canon had some holes in the curriculum, so he created new kata that helped fill these holes. So, in this way, he's added to the body of knowledge that way. Am I making sense?

Rob

Gene Williams
19th August 2003, 17:27
NO,no! Please do not make up your own kata. Most of what I've seen in that arena is awful and unnecessary. There is plenty, I mean plenty, in the classical kata we already have. Nobody, not the old guys, and certainly not us, have anywhere near exhausted what's there already. I don't believe it is necessary to find an answer for every contingency in the kata. Some techniques just aren't there...don't need to be. I agree that certain things are "coded" in kata, and that kata should be done without changing or adding to the moves. Your rhythm and spirit will change as you grow in the arts, but let it happen, don't try to force it by screwing with the kata. I think sometimes we ask too much from the kata, while not asking enough from ourselves and time. BTW, we bunkai mikazuki geri as a high load for a really nasty stomp to the forward knee or instep. It is especially nice in Rohai. Re: seiken. So many ryu do it a little differently that it is better to focus on other things than the punch itself, such as, hips, placement of the forward foot to break the opponent's center, and accuracy, a much overlooked point. If you are out there making up your own kata, you need to ask yourself a few questions, like: just how the hell good do you think you are? What have you missed in the ones you were given? Are you that bored with your art? Maybe I need a sensei? What do you know that Miyagi, Itosu, Mabuni, Higaonna, Kyan, Gokenki, and Motobu did not...hmmmmmmmm? Gene

Rob Alvelais
19th August 2003, 17:39
Originally posted by Gene Williams
NO,no! Please do not make up your own kata. Most of what I've seen in that arena is awful and unnecessary.

True. Manny, you could do what I do and just tell people that Gene Williams taught the form to me. Just call it Possum Shodan or something. ;) :p


BTW, we bunkai mikazuki geri as a high load for a really nasty stomp to the forward knee or instep. It is especially nice in Rohai. I see you have the same delusions that I do. ;)


What do you know that Miyagi, Itosu, Mabuni, Higaonna, Kyan, Gokenki, and Motobu did not...hmmmmmmmm? Gene
Well, I now know how to make Tuna Tacos and Possum dishes. :laugh:

Rob

CEB
19th August 2003, 18:26
Some of you guys must have changed the kata because there is no Mikazuki Geri in Rohai. It IS a stomping kick to the forward knee followed by a throw down. :)

Gene Williams
19th August 2003, 19:07
Hell, Ed, Goju doesn't even do Rohai...you must have learned it from Alvelais or some generous Shito/Shorin ryu guy. It is a crescent kick in the kata :p, so there. Possum Sho can only be done at night in the middle of a highway. It was developed to train for agility and and fast stepping. Unfortunately, few have survived to pass it on. The problem was with the breathing part, where you assume sanchin and do ibuki...they really should have left that out of that kata...:D Now, the hanging by the tail part, well, that is the most secret part of the kata and only passed on to the most advanced students...not you Ed:D

CEB
19th August 2003, 19:20
Originally posted by Gene Williams
Hell, Ed, Goju doesn't even do Rohai...you must have learned it from Alvelais or some generous Shito/Shorin ryu guy. ....

A Shorin Ryu village stylist. A very generous man indeed. Had my Daughter been a boy she would have been named after him.




Originally posted by Gene Williams
... Possum Sho can only be done at night in the middle of a highway. It was developed to train for agility and and fast stepping. Unfortunately, few have survived to pass it on. The problem was with the breathing part, where you assume sanchin and do ibuki...they really should have left that out of that kata...:D Now, the hanging by the tail part, well, that is the most secret part of the kata and only passed on to the most advanced students...not you Ed:D

Sounds like Hakutsuru :)

CEB
19th August 2003, 19:45
Note not included in this form of course is the ultra secret Okuden waza of hanging by your ass.

Possum Sho Movie Link you will need Windows media player (http://www.geocities.com/goshinbudo_indonesia/hakutsuru.zip)

CEB
19th August 2003, 19:59
Should anyone be curious about the video clip I believe it is the Shito Ryu form Hakucho done by Hayashi Sensei taken from the film This is Budo.

Its not really Possum Sho. Possum Sho is much too deadly of an art to post on an internet forum. :(

Gene Williams
19th August 2003, 20:13
Yes, that is Hakucho, but not all of it. Possum Nidan involves playing dead (down here it is called, "sulling"). Your opponent attacks and you fake a heart attack or a stroke or seizure and just fall over on the floor. It helps if you drool a little and hold your breath so you turn a little purple or blue. There was a kid in high school who did this several times to get out of class until Mr. Trawick caught on and took the paddle to him while he lay on the floor. Back then teachers were allowed to employ effective discipline. Today, there would be a swarm of DFCS twerps invading the school and filing law suits. Anyway, Possum Nidan is very difficult. Possums do not get rabies, by the way. They have naturally selected it out of their gene pool because they are so damned old, like you Ed.:D Gene

CEB
19th August 2003, 20:26
Originally posted by Gene Williams
Yes, that is Hakucho, but not all of it. ...

Seriously is the above statement correct or was it a lead in into Possum Nidan. Because the form in the clip looks like some sort of Kakuho lite. It would make sense to me if there is really more too it than what is shown. No need to mention specifics but a yes or no answered would be appreciated. I guess I'm just being nosey.

Gene Williams
19th August 2003, 22:19
Hi Ed, No, that is only part of the kata. I know it all...ha,ha,ha,ha. It makes you feel kinda light and fluffy when you do it. What I wish I knew was Hakutsuru, but everybody who could teach it to me died. I don't have access to anyone who knows it. Like I need another kata:( I'm working on Armadillo Dai, which is to be run in samurai armor:D Gene

Rob Alvelais
19th August 2003, 22:34
Originally posted by Gene Williams
Hi Ed, No, that is only part of the kata.

Actually, it might be the whole thing. I remember seeing Hayashi doing hakutsuru or Hakaku or whatever it's called, on his Champ video of Hayashi Ha Shito Ryu, and thinking that it was awfully short. As though it was truncated for some reason, or that he only learned half of it.

Rob

Gene Williams
19th August 2003, 23:53
Hi Rob, He leaves out a few moves, probably deliberately. Tell me this, are Hakucho and Hakutsuru and Shirohaku all the same form? I have heard Hakucho and Hakutsuru spoken of for years as two distinct forms. I have never seen anyone do Hakutsuru or Shirohaku (unless they are the same as Hakucho). I've been doing Hakucho a long time..maybe I am doing all of them;) Gene

Goju Man
20th August 2003, 01:51
Ed, I promise not to touch your kata!:D Now, as for the Goju ones...:p But seriously, you can have the techniques in the bunkai, but your not teaching it the same way as Ed described in an earlier post. I have two different round kick versions, and neither one is like the one in our kihons. It's probably a good way to teach the round kick to someone who has never done one, I used to call it round kick by the numbers: 1 pivot foot, 2 tuck and point the knee, 3 kick, 4 tuck, and 5 back to stance. My favourite round kick starts out as almost a front kick with the hips turning and the leg whipping around at almost the last minute. For me personally, as emotionally attached to Goju as I am, have found better results for me the Muay Thai style where nothing is choriographed and my moves just come out naturally. Still, my best kata was Seiyunchin and favourite one is Sepai.;)

Goju Man
20th August 2003, 02:13
Ed, I promise not to touch your kata!

My bad, I meant GENE.:eek:

Rob Alvelais
20th August 2003, 02:49
I've no idea. I've not seen Mabuni or Miki do them.

Rob


Originally posted by Gene Williams
Hi Rob, He leaves out a few moves, probably deliberately. Tell me this, are Hakucho and Hakutsuru and Shirohaku all the same form? I have heard Hakucho and Hakutsuru spoken of for years as two distinct forms. I have never seen anyone do Hakutsuru or Shirohaku (unless they are the same as Hakucho). I've been doing Hakucho a long time..maybe I am doing all of them;) Gene

Goju Man
20th August 2003, 03:21
I've seen Hayashi Sensei do it,(Hakutsuru), George Alexander, and Shinpo Matayoshi.

Gene Williams
20th August 2003, 11:47
Manny, You have good taste in kata:) You are allowed to touch my kata, just wash your hands first and put them back just like you found them:p I watched the tapes again...I've got a couple of questions I'll send in email. Gene

CEB
20th August 2003, 15:01
Originally posted by Gene Williams
Hi Rob, He leaves out a few moves, probably deliberately. Tell me this, are Hakucho and Hakutsuru and Shirohaku all the same form? I have heard Hakucho and Hakutsuru spoken of for years as two distinct forms. I have never seen anyone do Hakutsuru or Shirohaku (unless they are the same as Hakucho). I've been doing Hakucho a long time..maybe I am doing all of them;) Gene

Kakuho starts out pretty much just like the Hayashi Sensei clip (edited by Ed actually there is a lot of stuff left out but what is left is still a lot like Kakuho). There are slight differences in hand style but the beginning in strikingly similar. I can’t begin to describe the form or the differences in words. Heck I can’t even describe a roundhouse kick let alone Kakuho.

I think they all came from GoKenKi no matter what some crane salesmen tell you. One of the things you read in some history books is how GoKenKi was always teaching things differently. They very well could be all the same kata.

Rob Alvelais
20th August 2003, 15:24
Tsunami has a video of Matayoshi performing Hakutsuru.

Rob

CEB
20th August 2003, 15:43
Originally posted by Rob Alvelais
Tsunami has a video of Matayoshi performing Hakutsuru.

Rob

Is it good? Is the tape a high level presentation of open parts Kingai Ryu? Sorry I'm not much into movies. I have some old super 8 coverage of Higaonna Sensei and the last Bluming Seninar in Seattle. That is the extent of my karate video collection. If its a demo video I would be interested in it. If it is a Hakutsuru 'How To' video I think I would pass. Borders used to sell those I think.

Rob Alvelais
20th August 2003, 16:10
It's Shinpo Matayoshi himself performing the kata. As for the quality, it's a tsunami production, so it's pretty good. Their productions are usually first-rate.

Rob


Originally posted by CEB
Is it good? Is the tape a high level presentation of open parts Kingai Ryu? Sorry I'm not much into movies. I have some old super 8 coverage of Higaonna Sensei and the last Bluming Seninar in Seattle. That is the extent of my karate video collection. If its a demo video I would be interested in it. If it is a Hakutsuru 'How To' video I think I would pass. Borders used to sell those I think.

Gene Williams
20th August 2003, 16:52
Let's get back to punches...how often do you guys hit the makiwara, heavy bag, or do other hand conditioning? I hit the makiwara about 3 times a week and the heavy bag about twice a week, usually on different days. This, along with knuckle pushups seems to do the job for me. My physician student warns against over doing the makiwara because of the possibility of causing damage to the padding in the joints. I have developed sufficient callouses over the years so I feel that I don't need to do as much makiwara work, but I prefer to hit it about twenty times each hand before a kata workout. It just makes me "feel" the punches more. Gene

Bustillo, A.
20th August 2003, 16:52
Originally posted by Gene Williams
NO,no! Please do not make up your own kata. Most of what I've seen in that arena is awful and unnecessary. There is plenty, I mean plenty, in the classical kata we already have. ...
.. Some techniques just aren't there...don't need to be. If you are out there making up your own kata, you need to ask yourself a few questions, like: just how the hell good do you think you are? What have you missed in the ones you were given? Are you that bored with your art? Maybe I need a sensei? What do you know that Miyagi, Itosu, Mabuni, Higaonna, Kyan, Gokenki, and Motobu did not...hmmmmmmmm? Gene


Gene,

I agree that there is a lot of new worthless made up kata and styles.
On the other hand, here and there, great innovations have come along.

I refuse to accept the idea, and I don't understand how anyone does, that since the time of Itosu, Higaonna, Miyagi, Uechi, Kyan, Funakoshi and so on, that anything new after them isn't worthy. That would be saying that new ideas are not necassary and no one can possibly surpass the knowledge of the founders. --Well let's just cross the Atlantic on the Wright brothers marvelous original.

Not to take anything away from the respected founders, yet, to answer the question about what does anyone know that Miyagi, Motobu and the others didn't know. In many cases, I'd say plenty. Nothing they devised can possibly be so perfect.

A few of the foundrs traveled to China for research and gained tremendous knowledge. For that era, wonderful. I give them all the credit. Nowadays, many have traveled to China, okinawa, Japan, India, Malaysia, Thailand and Myarna.

In addition, except for a few of the masters, a point which is not often mentioned is about their 'real' hands on fighting experience. Hard to say in most cases. They had a wealth of info on application, theories... that only goes so far.


Let's leave aside 'ring experience and competition, in today's society, and depending on the area, zone, or city we can bet that police men, corrections officers, bodyguards, bouncers and just plain thugs who are also martial artist engage in comabt more often then some of the past karatekas could have possibly experienced in a small village.

Therefore, giving credit to what the old-timers passed on to us, combined with a wider range of resources to pool from , plus on-hands, that leaves the possibility that today some people do know a little more...


Having said that, nothing wrong with digging deeper in to ther original forms, however, there are a couple of other things out there for us to take notice and implement.

Gene Williams
20th August 2003, 16:59
Hi, Antonio. We must have been posting at the same time...I'm just going by what I've seen in the way of modern kata. Some of Kotaka's kata are pretty good, and there are always those Oyama made up. I agree that here and there you may find one or two worth looking at, but I still think that the cultural and military background that developed the old kata is impossible to reproduce. I'm all for developing new techniques and applications, but I think the old kata are the best for training and maintaining a "ryu." I'm just one who likes to go deeper into the old stuff...set in my ways.:D
Gene

Bustillo, A.
20th August 2003, 17:24
Originally posted by Gene Williams
Hi, I still think that the cultural and military background that developed the old kata is impossible to reproduce. I'm all for developing new techniques and applications, but I think the old kata are the best for training and maintaining a "ryu." I'm just one who likes to go deeper into the old stuff...set in my ways.:D
Gene

Researching, unraveling details of past methods, everyone has their thing and that's fine. Especially if you a trying to 'maintain' something then I'd say don't change it.

Even so, it is just that some people really beleive that the way it was done one hundred years ago in Okinawa is the only true way of doing things and anything anyone comes up with after that era does not have merit.

Gene Williams
20th August 2003, 18:00
I agree with you on the last point...knowledge continues to grow, and new developments are good. As I have said before, I have learned a lot from my friends in BJJ and jujutsu, I just don't feel the need to develop a kata based on it. Gene

Goju Man
20th August 2003, 22:19
Gene, I have all the respect for "preservationists" from an art point of view. I enjoy learning good Goju from anyone, as it is my love for the art. But if you look at the "fighting arts" of today, they mostly revolve around sports, mainly because we as a society don't have a need to go around fighting in the streets day after day. But the majority of the guys like Police Officers who have had to put it to the test for real, often opt for martial sport systems. The reason is that they are receptive to change because the fighters that compete in them are constantly evolving in every aspect of their art. Someone comes up with a new way of performing a technique with great success, someone has to figure out a way to counter that, and so on.

CEB
20th August 2003, 22:30
Originally posted by Gene Williams
Let's get back to punches...how often do you guys hit the makiwara, heavy bag, or do other hand conditioning? I hit the makiwara about 3 times a week and the heavy bag about twice a week, usually on different days. This, along with knuckle pushups seems to do the job for me. My physician student warns against over doing the makiwara because of the possibility of causing damage to the padding in the joints. I have developed sufficient callouses over the years so I feel that I don't need to do as much makiwara work, but I prefer to hit it about twenty times each hand before a kata workout. It just makes me "feel" the punches more. Gene

I used to hit the makiwara a lot. I quit hitting it regularly a few years ago because basically I couldn't hit it hard anymore. Either makiwara is going to break or its going to break me. Maybe the makiwara at my old house was a little too stiff for when I started to learn how to really punch. But mostly I was simply operating under some misconceptions of what the makiwara was for. Robert Rousselot made the statement here once that the makiwara was for teaching focus not for developing power. I think he's right in thought. My problem is just what is his definition of focus. I think it teaches more than just kime but he is right that it isn't for the development of power.

Due to Mr. Lowery's post about Shotokan politics I was led to the fighting chicken man web site and there I read an article about the makiwara. The article gave me things to think about but I don't agree with what I think the author's conclussions are. I'm like Gene and can't accept the conclussion that so many of the old teachers were wrong. This is what I was thinking about when I started the thread before I left for last weeks training. I actually did something smart for a change and asked Sensei about this last week and my answer was I was hitting it wrong. I am not good at putting stuff into words but I think what I want to say is that I need to hit it in a softer more relaxed fashion. Still hit it mechanically correct but not with all the gusto. Can't give you Sensei's words because his answer wasn't in words but in the form of physical demonstration. I have started hitting the makiwara again this week. I plan on doing so 2 to 3 days a week depending on if I make it in to the dojo on Saturday.


I'm addicted to the heavy bag but still basically use it for developing striking power. Antonio, Hector, and Manny have been extremely helpful over the last couple years in furthering my use of the bag beyond just beating the stuffing out of it. Sometimes I lay the bag on the ground and work it. I worked it interval style sometimes where I work it easy concentrating on body movement and certain techniques for a certain amount of minutes then I go all out power for 1 minute then go back to easy mode for another X minutes.


Knuckle pushups are a major piece of Junbi Undo.

I'm not as old as you guys but I don't seem to have any problems with playing the piano. So I'm sort of at a loss as to all the stories about this being harmful to your hands.

Martyn van Halm
20th August 2003, 22:51
Originally posted by CEB
What good is Kime? What do you think Kime is?
Please bear with me, as I'm not a practitioner of the fine art of karate, but a kobujutsu student.
In classic swordfighting, kime is used to assess whether you are just being a pretty boy who can swing a piece of wood into the appropriate position, or a martial artist who can make a piece of wood cut like a blade of steel. The difference is easily discerned even by non-practitioners of the art.
Kime is the focus that goes into the cuts and doesn't end for one moment until the end of kata, just as zanshin doesn't flag between the beginning of class and the end.


Originally posted by CEB
Different Kata within the same ryu have a different feel and teach differing underlying concepts. Sometimes the feel of a kata changes as a practitioner grows in experience. Does everyone agree with this?
I can relate only to my study of kobujutsu and talk about the four basic [omoto] kenjutsu kata.
In our school one learns first the 'kirikomi' side of the first kata, then the 'uke' side of this kata, before one can progress to the second kata.
Whenever you change partners, you always do the kata in sequence. As a result you train the first kata more often than any other.
Beginners want to progress to the fourth kata as soon as possible. To the beginner, the first kata becomes boring since it revolves around the transition from one basic posture to the next. Once they 'mastered' this, they want to learn the other three kata and as a result they rush through the first kata quickly to begin the 'interesting' kata.
This practice is a bit like performing a perfunctory bow 'because that's what people do before they start hitting each other'.

For experienced students, the first kata is where everything comes back. As a junior the kata helps you learn the basics, as a senior the kata becomes a proof of ability ['see how fast I can do this?'], but for the veteran the first kata is not to be done fast but is an avenue of endless opportunities. All basic moves have options that are missing in advanced kata - especially since the advanced kata have a purpose other than to teach the basics [like distance and timing] and are thus more difficult to adjust to experimentation.

hectokan
20th August 2003, 23:48
For whatever reasons, it seems that karate practicioners had a magical spell casted upon themselves that prevented them from improving upon past generation leaders.These guys must have been like the apostles in the bible but even they were not perfect.

Maybe just maybe, I am wrong and the okinawan karate masters were excluded from every Human physical endeaver known to mankind that prevented their theories from being improved upon with time.


Hector Gomez

Goju Man
21st August 2003, 12:32
Hector, some of them did put it to the test at that time. It probably was cutting edge at that time. The problem was since there wasn't any type of sport associated with it, there was no competition and no improvements made upon it. Boxing, on the other hand has made improvements because fighters are always trying to stay on top.

CEB
21st August 2003, 16:38
Cutting edge my foot! Karate-Do as most people know it today never was cutting edge. The purpose of Karate-Do is to build character not warriors. To quote Funakoshi Gichin, "The ultimate aim of Karate lies not in victory or defeat, but in the perfection of the character of its participants." He was serious, that is exactlly what he meant. He never said the ultimate aim of Karate is to kick the **** out of people.

Comparing karate to fighting is like comparing Kendo to the sword fighting at the Battle at Sekigahara. Bare hand fighting probably hasn't evolved much at all since ancient Greek Pankration. The thing I like about the UFC is that it does come closer to real fight than anything else I have ever seen. This is based on what I witness at the Midwest's most lively honky tonks. I've heard karate guys talk that have witnessed fights and they have come way with what I think is a very a erroneous and dangerous attitude. The comment that comes to mind is 'they didn't know what they were doing, they were just rolling around on the ground not doing anything'. Hopefully the MMA guys have done some good in bringing some awareness to the martial arts community the dangers of having 200 pounds of man laying on you. What I see when I see this happen is a person gets on top of somebody and he wants to create a striking gap so he can't really cut down on someone. Well the guy on the bottom doesn't want that to happen so he grabs him and holds him in tight but what he really want is to turn him over so he can be on top create a striking gap so he can cut down on him. Things get crazy a lot of energy is being expended in various directions and the pair roll and the process starts over and the pair roll again. What the karate student sees two 'unskilled' brawlers rolling around on the ground not doing anything that looks like what recognize as a fighting technique.

Most attempts to add a sport element to karate has taken the art further from reality and has destroyed the classical flavor of the styles. Everyone who plays tag looks the same. Right now I think the best bet would be to go with the full contact/ full body armor route and/or cross train with MMA guys if you want to get a feel for full resistence fighting. It is Judo's training methodology of facing full resistence partners in a free style format that causes Judo to simply rock. If there was a Judo dojo in Sprinfield 20 years ago I probably wouldn't have gotten back into karate. It was possible to make a Judo, a grappling art safe. I don't see anyway to make Karate, a blunt force trauma art, safe, Unless it is through the use of body armor and that may have its own set of pitfalls. But, Yaksoku kumite and Kakie Kumite should go a long way to increasing your chances of surviving a fight.

Advanced teachers ( advanced does NOT necessarily mean highly ranked ) know how to hurt people, but it is not in the best interest of the students to be taught how to really hurt each other. It is in their best interest to learn how to protect their bodies in the course of karate training. Karate-Do isn't meant to be gladitorial training. Out of the few people I instuct I have one man that I teach 'real' techniques to. He is a SanDan, family man, been doing Goju Ryu for 22 years and I've known him for 19 years now. I feel comfortable in teaching him this stuff. The other students do enough damage to each other in class with basic karate the way it is. The only way to get good at fighting is to fight fights. Karate-Do class doesn't teach fighting. I myself don't have much experience either. My street record is only a whopping 2-0. I'm just lucky I guess considering some of the places I've been and considering how much of a hothead I used to be when I was younger. Soberity helps a lot I think.

Gene Williams
21st August 2003, 18:18
Good post, Ed. You speak my mind well. Thanks. Gene

hector gomez
21st August 2003, 19:12
Wow Ed thanks alot.I think you are the first person on this forum to actually compliment Funakoshi Gichin,Most people on here like to rip this poor guys soul to piesces for his lack of fighting spirit.I guess it's good to have him around whenever conversations turn into just the physical part of fighting.Funny,I was looking for the purpose of karate-do(In building character) in the Bubishi and I could not find anything about character building.

I am sure that karate-do produces a great enviorement or avenue to teach a solid character foundation but so does my kids little league Footbal team.I would not put to much emphasis on the character building benifits of karate-DO as I have seen way too many people training in TMA that definitely don't fit the stereotype for a model citizen.They must have missed character building class that day.

As a society most of the general public has been duped into believing what a real fight looks like or even the realities of what it entails.For many years we have been spoon fed all of this hokos pokos oriental mystical fantasy stuff and we have never been able to shake it off.


TV and the media is part of the blame.I am still amazed at how much of the general public still believes that Steven seagall or Jet lee should not be allowed to fight in the UFC because they are too deadly.


I ran into a old time friend the other day that has been training in the arts for over 30yrs,he told me straight out.........you see Hector....all of that grappling stuff going on now is for people that don't know sh*&t about real fighting,all I have to do is poke him in the eyes like this and squeeze him like that and I never have to get dirty.

I had to contain myself from laughing so hard when I saw him munching on goober candies and puffing on a cigarette.This guy had not done any serious training in years but he had the whole fight scene analogy figured out real good.The truth is.....there is alot of guys like this around.

My remarks are not really intended for anyone on this forum but there is alot of misconceptions associated with the fighting arts that range from the slightest misconceptions to the most bizzare & extreme.I guess that's what makes this world so fascinating,we all beat to a different drum.

The truth is....My friend can live all of his life in fantasyland without ever wanting to explore other avenues or concepts on training not that he ever really needs too,besides when things get real nasty there is always the......."I will pull out my 357 magnum BS excuse".



Hector Gomez

Bustillo, A.
21st August 2003, 20:09
Originally posted by hector gomez
Funny,I was looking for the purpose of karate-do(In building character) in the Bubishi and I could not find anything about character building.

...For many years we have been spoon fed all of this hokos pokos oriental mystical fantasy stuff and we have never been able to shake it off.
...I ran into a old time friend the other day that has been training in the arts for over 30yrs,he told me straight out.........you see Hector....all of that grappling stuff going on now is for people that don't know sh*&t about real fighting,all I have to do is poke him in the eyes like this and squeeze him like that and I never have to get dirty.
Hector Gomez

Martial arts main concern, originally, was not the Emily Post etiquette act proper nonsense. Even so, the character building aspect is by-product of ma practise yet no more so than a serious athlete undergoing hard training in gymnastics, football, soccer, swimming and so on.


Note. an interesting commentary on reality of fights.

http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20991



Ref
(Mr poke eyes & squeeze... sounds like the Cuban Ed Parker.)

CEB
21st August 2003, 20:14
Originally posted by hector gomez
...

I ran into a old time friend the other day that has been training in the arts for over 30yrs,he told me straight out.........you see Hector....all of that grappling stuff going on now is for people that don't know sh*&t about real fighting,all I have to do is poke him in the eyes like this and squeeze him like that and I never have to get dirty.
...

Hector Gomez

I like that. We must have some of the same freinds. I have a dojo mate who talks that smack. We do groundwork and grappling in our dojo. I don't consider what we do as teaching groundfighting. We try too to do what we can, but you know as well as I, the only way to get proficient at it is to practice regularly. We touch on ne waza a few times a year mostly to show our karate students how their karate can go to hell real quick if they wind up on the ground. The dojo has myself and another black belt with a strong judo background and a blackbelt who used to be a strong competitve wrestler to bring home the point.

I know you know this and probably most of us here are smart enough to realize this, Superior position is superior position, period. All this talk about eye gouging and nut grabbing ect... is moot. Because the man in the superior postion can do those mean and nasty things also and probably will if he wants to hurt you. Plus your chance of pulling one of those vicious nut grabbing technique goes drastically south when you find yourself in a bad position. But your chance of really making the other guy mad increases if you try that but can't pull it off ( get it, pull it off :D :D ;) ) Maybe you will inspire you opponent to return the favor.

Gene Williams
21st August 2003, 20:24
Ha! I would not poke his eyes and squeeze his nuts...I would poke his nuts and squeeze his eyes, then I would employ the Dillman death grip and the Steven Seagall "Pillsbury Doughboy" sitkyo, where you just sit on the guy and sqush him. Seriously, a karate guy with no grappling experience, if taken down, is in deep doo doo. Nothing happens in combat like you think of it in your mind or even like you train for it. That is why we should all stay in shape and train hard in different ways. I try not to even think about "what would I do" type stuff. It limits your mind to those thoughts and could cause you to freeze or do something stupid. You just have to be open, alert, and respond freely to whatever situation.

hector gomez
21st August 2003, 20:28
Gene,

After that reply,we are seriuosly considering electing you for vice president of the SFA.:smilejapa


Hector Gomez

hector gomez
21st August 2003, 20:38
Ed,

That sounds real good,I guess we can Mix a little of the TMA with a little cutting edge.


Do you turn around the pictures(of the masters) hanging on the wall when you do this?:nono:


Hector Gomez

Bustillo, A.
21st August 2003, 20:59
Originally posted by Gene Williams
I try not to even think about "what would I do" type stuff. It limits your mind to those thoughts and could cause you to freeze or do something stupid. You just have to be open, alert, and respond freely to whatever situation.


Gene,

Perfecto.

CEB
21st August 2003, 21:45
Originally posted by hector gomez
Ed,

That sounds real good,I guess we can Mix a little of the TMA with a little cutting edge.


Do you turn around the pictures(of the masters) hanging on the wall when you do this?:nono:


Hector Gomez

Sure you can mix whatever you want. I still don't know if you are going to make fighters out of anybody anymore. 20 years ago 9 out every 10 beginners didn't last 1 year. That was OK because there were another 9 that would take their place. Thinning the herd was a necessary part of dojo management. That isn't the case anymore around here. Now we teach housewives and children.

I have only 2 pictures and both these men were extremely innovative. I don't think they would ever have any problems with innovation. I would be an innovator if I had the talent but I just don't know enough to do my own thing.

But what I want to know is what is cutting edge? See I'm not so sure much has changed since the Ancient Greeks. Styles and what is fashionable has changed but the human body moves and breaks the same way it always has.

The thing that worried me about posting my opinions on the subject matter in this thread wasn't what people like you think. It was the reaction that I thought I might get from the karate guys because the basic premise of what I posted was that karate's basic kihon are specifically designed with the purpose of being less than optimally effective. I don't know, I thought that would honk off a lot of good people and I didn't want to do that. So I held my opinion back for a week or so. Someone told me go for it. So in a moment of craziness I did. I guess nobody cares, I guess that is good. A point that I pussyfooted around was there were certain way that strikes and kicks were carried out. These ways were effective. A long time ago you see there was a war between Russia and Japan. Okinawa provided men who fought on the side of Japan in that war. Some of these men were war heroes, most notable I believe Yabu Kentsu. Japan was in a new period of development and was looking for way to promote a new sense of social nationalism. It seemed to some of the folks in charge that something about karate provided strong youth and strong soldiers. So karate was introduced into the school system. But heck karate was a pretty dangerous form of PE so kihon were created that could be practiced but not hurt anybody too badly and the tuite was removed. Now we had this new kind of Karate. It eventually went to the mainland and then to the world. The some people in Japan thought their karate was really really strong then they fought some guys from Thailand that threw 'real' kicks and ‘real’ punches and they got their butts handed to them and then they went about putting some of the old atemi back into their art. It kind of reminds me of the cycle of a human condition we studied about in ancient history with the birth of civilization in the Mesopotamian valley. You had these warlike tribes one became dominant and took the valley. Then they would learn to farm and live the good life then they would get soft then another group of warmongers would take the valley till they got soft. In a way I guess I see Martial Arts doing that but I don't know if any of it is really new.

CEB
21st August 2003, 22:00
Originally posted by Gene Williams
... Seriously, a karate guy with no grappling experience, if taken down, is in deep doo doo. Nothing happens in combat like you think of it in your mind or even like you train for it. That is why we should all stay in shape and train hard in different ways. I try not to even think about "what would I do" type stuff. It limits your mind to those thoughts and could cause you to freeze or do something stupid. You just have to be open, alert, and respond freely to whatever situation.

So I like I was saying we take our student to the ground a few times a year and we put them in a position where they are in deep simulated doo doo (doo doo lite). We also teach a few classes a year on how to avoid the ground. This brief exposure isn't going to make them proficient but it does provide them them with some pressure and stress of having to work from their back. To me how someone responds to stress and presssure is more important than technique. If you freeze you're done. But then again if you want proficiency you need to seek out a school that specialize in that thing. It gets back to our old discussion of whether or MMA should be only learned and practiced but never taught.

Are you saying that you see no value in that and that it is counter productive to take them off there feet? I think it is at least an eye openefor some of the ones that have never been there. Just curious.

Gene Williams
21st August 2003, 22:08
Hell no it isn't counter productive! I take my students off their feet regularly...I just meant that you should not pre-think too much. Pre-train everything, then your responses to attack will flow as they will. We trained for every contingency in boot camp, but my first experience with combat was mortar rounds being walked into the friggin' perimeter...just exploding all over the place with no warning, in the middle of the day, for about ten minutes. Then nothing. Jesus. Wanna' feel helpless? You just can't pre-think anything. Gene

CEB
21st August 2003, 22:17
Thanks. I totally agree with that one.

Ed Boyd
The only path to Mushin is through Yushin

Gene Williams
21st August 2003, 23:02
The only path to the white possum is through the possum of nothingness:smilejapa

CEB
21st August 2003, 23:30
You weren't at Khe Sanh were you? I saw movie on the History Channel last week about the siege. Thank you for your service to our country.

Goju Man
22nd August 2003, 00:51
Thank you for your service to our country.
Gene, that goes for me, too. I luckily never saw combat.

One thing about Gichin Funakoshi and combat, it has been talked to death that the reason he stressed that character building stuff was because he couldn't fight to save his life. But Karate in Okinawa was used and devised expresly for combat. We can't have it both ways. I also have looked in both my copies of the Bubishi, and find no mention of character building anywhere within the techniques. They were about combat and strategy, period. Does karate do build character, certainly, depending also in great part to the instructor. I have seen many INSTRUCTORS who mised all their respective character building classes.

Karate has also been used as a physical training device, as in the case of Yabu. Being far more physically fit than the other soldiers, his superiors investigated into how he attained it. Why? Everyone is basically always looking for a better way to go about a task, we just sometimes quit looking.

Gene Williams
22nd August 2003, 01:22
I think character building came later, too, with all the emphasis on do. I think that is good, but I agree that a lot of karate guys missed the character part. Seems like the aikido folks do best at that, but they missed the fighting part:D Anyway, you are right, too many just quit looking. Ed, no, I was not at Khe San. Gene

"I have searched for the White Possum through the dark mysteries of the secret way, but am left hanging by my tail in silent wonder." Master Po-sum

CEB
22nd August 2003, 04:35
Originally posted by hector gomez
...Funny,I was looking for the purpose of karate-do(In building character) in the Bubishi and I could not find anything about character building.
....
Hector Gomez


Originally posted by Goju Man
....I also have looked in both my copies of the Bubishi, and find no mention of character building anywhere within the techniques. .....

I can't find any mention of charcter building in my 1998 Used Car Buyer Guide. Whats your point?


From chapter 2 - Master Wong's Secrets

I advise you all to have patience silence and awareness. and to let it spread into your social life as well. Meet on a regular basis with your good freinds in the martial arts and talk about martial arts. This will increase in you a good quality of life and also in your family traditions.

Always remember to back off one step from your opponent and give up one third of your rights to attack on a close basis, this makes you defensive rather than offensive. You should also always eat slowly and take time to taste you food. Even in your dreams you should not forget the laws of reason.

If you can be patient in your momentary happiness, then God can live within you. You will find that you are better off ignoring all of your problems, not talking about them so often, and just carrying on like they do not exist. Do not spend all your time picking at tea leaves, stay away from flowers and drinking.

Be honest with yourself and others is the true way of living life to the fullest. Envying others has no heart. If your freinds are poor and living at the bottom don't laugh at them. Even if you become rich do not become too proud for others. Neither the house of the rich or the poor can fortell the future of what tomorrow may bring, flowers always bloom if there is land for them to grow.


Chapter 3 - How to take care your life.

Those who study kenpo are defending themselves to become stronger human beings in their daily lives, and do not use this as means to reach out and strike others, like some of the bad persons do. This theory can be perserved by keeping it in your heart at all times.
.....

From chapter Chapter 4
....If you become violent causing small troubles when you are young they become big troubles when you are old....

From Chapter 5
..... Stay away from people who teach bad kenpo because will not like you and cease to show you the true way.


Sorry I'm tired and need to go to bed I was going to type all of chapters 2 through 5 but I got tired after completing chapter 2. Since you have multiple copies you should have no problem reading it for yourselves. Unless you have the PM version. The first edition was missing parts I don't know which parts those were. I don't know if the later editions were complete. I assume they are but it isn't in chapter order and contains many extra writings which are a pain if your are looking for a translation of the orginal Wu Pei Chi text. But still a good read. I liked it. Good night have a nice weekend. Gambatte Kudasai

Goju Man
22nd August 2003, 12:32
Ed, this is all good, and again a by product of training. Notice that in the bubishi, although it mentions spirit and character, it is not a meditation bible. I don't need to know the herbal remedies nor the postures to build my character. Note in the postures and techniques, there are "killing" techniques. Do you actually think it was not meant for combat? Why not practise yoga or TM? Being in the military, for example, builds strong character. But is that the reason for the military existing? No. It's for combat when needed.

hectokan
22nd August 2003, 12:42
Here is the thing I still have a problem understanding,how can a "physical"activity like karate,that we all agree is taught & passed along thru great discipline and with militaristic characteristics(in some cases) instill the traits in the human physce to become a better human being?


If this was true,then all veterans or persons serving in the armed forces would be model citizens upon being released from serving their country.We all know this is definitely not the case,becoming a better human being has to involve a lot more varibales in ones life that shapes and influences their personality, along with the predetermined genetical genes that permit one from not becoming an SOB in life.

Hector Gomez

Casper Baar
22nd August 2003, 15:21
My 2 cents,

The characterbuilding doesn't come from the physical part of karate.

Karatedo asks a continuing commitment to improvement of the karateka's own performance.
It also teaches a realistic insight into your own skills (getting your ass kicked helps here).

There are probably other reasons but these two came to mind.
Stuff like this builds a strong character. The idea that you can achieve someting when you put effort and time into it is reinforced.
People with a strong character are not necessarily good people.

If karate would make better people it would be taught in all prisons: get a black belt and your ready for society.

have a nice weekend,

hector gomez
22nd August 2003, 15:28
Agree casper,by the way didn't Motobu and Funakoshi train in the same art and under some of the same teachers?





Hector Gomez:mst:

CEB
22nd August 2003, 15:58
Originally posted by Goju Man
Ed, this is all good, and again a by product of training. Notice that in the bubishi, although it mentions spirit and character, it is not a meditation bible. I don't need to know the herbal remedies nor the postures to build my character. Note in the postures and techniques, there are "killing" techniques. Do you actually think it was not meant for combat? Why not practise yoga or TM? Being in the military, for example, builds strong character. But is that the reason for the military existing? No. It's for combat when needed.

That is true stuff, but I don't see what a Chinese text of unknown origin has anything to do with a Japanese social experiment that had a profound impact on the practice of the martial arts. These concepts of Japanese Martial being a vehicle of personal development grew out of 400-year evolution and these concepts found themselves ingrained into the Japanese martial art culture. I got into a discussion with a Matsumura Orthodox practitioner once about Do vs Jutsu. It spawned from his belief that Judo is a sport and NOT a martial art. I disagreed, thinking that Judo could be practiced as a martial art. Also we got into a peeing contest over the concept that BuDo arts are sports and forms of moving mediation and BuJutsu arts are purely killing methods. The character development thing goes back way before Do be came fashionable. It comes mostly from the 250+ years of peace during the Edo period and the Samurai's appreciation of Chan Buddhism. Since there weren't any wars to fight bugei found other uses. Here is some stuff I wrote a couple years ago regarding this. I still believe it and I think it relates a little to yours and Hectors questions, which really aren't questions. I guess the issue is mostly a matter of adopted culture. I never said Karate-Do didn't have combatitive uses or applications. Thats stupid. But we might not necessarily teach them or at least
not to everybody.


From some old correspondence
It is because use of the Do kanji became fashionable after 1868. Because martial arts became activities that were ruled by committees instead of families or ryuha. It is because Budo was used to develop character, promote physical fitness and to inspire a new classless nationalistic society in Japan and chose to seperate themselves from the arts that were associated with now abolished Samurai class.

Some Do arts developed into sporting activities and some did not.
Toyama Ryu Batto Do is a Do art. Its purpose was to teach soldiers combat tamashigiri as quick as possible ( ie how to cut the heads off GI personnel and Chinese )

The use of Budo as a vehicle to attain spiritual growth grew out of
the 250+ years of peace during the Edo period and the appreciation that the warrior class had for Zen or Chan Buddhism. This carried over into 20th century. It was an evolving process. The Japanese just didn't wake up one day say OK now lets all practice Bugei for personal development and call it Do and you guys that want to just kill people you call what you do Jutsu.

--------------------------

> > As to Jutsu vs. Do, as I understand it
> > Funakoshi and Jigoro Kano who
> > first changed the arts from Jutsu (Jitsu) to
> > Do.
>

The first instance of a Japanese fighting art going from being
referred to as a Jutsu to being called a Do. Was Kendo. The
Meiji Restoration (1868) abolished the Samurai class and prohibited the wearing of swords. During Meiji (1868-1912) the intent was to bring Japan from being a feudalistic society and bring her into the modern age. This didn't however mean becoming westernized and losing their sense of national identity. With the Meiji restoration came a sense of Japanese nationalism. This later lead to a very militastric nationalism under the Showa emperor.

Meiji restoration didn't go smoothly at all. There were 4 attempted
rebellions lead by a politically conservative samurai who wanted to hold on to the social order that was in place before the Meiji
Restoration. Some Kenjutsu masters were arrested and jailed for
continuing to teach their during this time period. It was the
Japanese police force that got started to get the Kendo ball
rolling.

In 1871 the Japanese Ministry of Education of passed a regulation
that made Kendo complusary in all public and private schools. The
purpose of doing this was character building and promoting Japanese nationalism among the young people. This is about 11 years before Kano founded the Kodokan (1882) and even after the Kodokan was founded what Kano taught was referred to as Kodokan Jujutsu. Exactly when the term Judo was adopted I'm not not sure, I going to have to find out.

The primary purpose of the Do arts were to promote the strengthening of character, facilitate strong physical education and to help build Japananese nationalism in the new 'classless' society of industrialized Japan.

But, the use Budo as a means of self improvement had started long before adoption of the Do suffix. The shogunate had held the peace in Japan for over 250 years (1603-1868). It was during this time that Chan or Zen Buddhism became popular with the Japanese warrior class. This is when Budo started became a vehicle to enlightment and self perfection. There are some Budo styles that have factions that call themselves xxxx-Do and xxxx-Jutsu. Examples are Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iaijutsu and Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iaido and there is Muso Shinden Ryu Iaijutsu and Muso Shinden Ryu Iaido. The arts are pretty much the same. One doesn't differ just because the name ends with Jutsu or ends with Do. The Aikido which was taught by pre war uchi deshi of O Sensei such as Gozo Shioda is as hard and bruttle as
the mokuroku den of Daito Ryu. Post war Aikido is a very different
animal. It had nothing to do with the suffix Do.

If you read Mr. Estrada's 1978 interview with Hohan Soken he states
"My style is officially called the Matsumura Orthodox Shorin-ryu
Karate-do". That doesn't mean his Karate was intended for sport. It just means that is what Soken Shinshii choose to call his karate. It just a label and the label doesn't necessarily mean much. Like I said most of the Jutsu vs Do debate comes from Smith and Draeger's 1969 book. Here is the quote.

"The Japanese group their combative systems into two distinct
categories. Those developed by warrior groups purely for use in
combat are called bugei or bujutsu (both words literally mean
"martial art"). Typically, names of those systems end in the suffix
jutsu. On the other hand, budo (martial way) systems all end in the suffix do (way). These systems were developed from the jutsu forms but are directed toward goals beyond (sometimes instead of) combat effectiveness. Where the bujutsu practitioner is concerned first and foremost with learning how to prevail in combat, the true budo aspirant devotes himself to a system of physical, mental, and spirital discipline through which he attempts to elecate himself in search of perfection (Draegar and Smith, 1969, p. 92). "

Draeger Donn F. and Smith, Robert W. Comprehensive Asian Fighting Arts (formerly Asian Fighting Arts). Tokyo: Kodansha International, 1969.


Have a good weekend. Take Care

CEB
22nd August 2003, 16:22
Here is a interesting angle. If you tell people up front that you teach methods of how to fight. Then you are obligated to do so even if the student is an a-hole. But if you say upfront that I teach ways of physical fitness, character development and moving meditation then you should have no problem keeping your end of the bargin :)

Bustillo, A.
22nd August 2003, 16:33
Originally posted by CEB


But what I want to know is what is cutting edge? See I'm not so sure much has changed since the Ancient Greeks. Styles and what is fashionable has changed but the human body moves and breaks the same way it always has.


Ed,


Good question.
(This is not to single you out, just for everyone in general.)

...for starters, unlike the Greeks did in their Olympics, nowadays we don't fight naked. (L)

And, we don't wear hakamas, so the movements are going to be different.--some arts want their practioners to wear the garb so they know why you move a certain way during a technique and to understand the original 'design'.

Question. so does anyone think that since the days of the early 1900's people have not come up with a new twist, devised a better way to do techniques, improved teaching and training methods?

The human body is the sane, yet, gymnast , skaters , dancers of just 30 years ago had not even dreamed of executing some of the moves poeple do today.

But it seems most martial artist are a bunch of lugheads, we repeat whatever was handed down... no concern about improveements or innovations.

hector gomez
22nd August 2003, 16:40
Good point Ed,


Although,I really don't think most new students at first have an interest in wanting to develop the character or any moving meditation.I think nine times out of ten the interest first lies in self defense.


That is the real bait,line and sinker then all of those other positive attributes associated with karate-DO are forged into the student as a byproduct.


Hector Gomez

CEB
22nd August 2003, 17:32
Originally posted by Bustillo, A.
Ed,


...
Question. so does anyone think that since the days of the early 1900's people have not come up with a new twist, devised a better way to do techniques, improved teaching and training methods?

The human body is the sane, yet, gymnast , skaters , dancers of just 30 years ago had not even dreamed of executing some of the moves poeple do today.

But it seems most martial artist are a bunch of lugheads, we repeat whatever was handed down... no concern about improveements or innovations.

That is really good. I know that comunication is a lot better

That is good comparative with the skaters. From 1900 till present I think you are right. Communication has advanced so much and the integration of ideas have become so much easier for the people who want to integrate all the strong fighting styles that are available.

I don't know if anybody else has thought about this but I have wondered just how technical pankration fighters were. The greeks were accomplished boxers and wrestlers. Pankration basically fused the 2 disciplines while throwing out most all the rules. It was brutal. It sort of evolved as far as rules sort of like the UFC has ( well it compares a little bit ). Remember in the UFC when you throw elbows to the back of the head when the guy was down (Paul Varlens Special). You can't do that now. Well one of the great Pankration champions named Sostartos specialized in break his opponents fingers early in the match. I guess it is pretty hard to box or grapple with all of your fingers broken. He also liked using the broken digits to bring about submission. The greeks had to create a rule against finger breaking, I guess the snapping of the fingers were ruining the fights. I encourage everybody to study the historical information that is available concerning the Pankration. Trying to reconcile the conflicting accounts may bother some but I find it interesting. But then again I really like history.

Gene Williams
25th August 2003, 04:02
The White Possum has placed Troof on his ignore list. Notice the strong profile of White Possum as he maintains a silent vigil in Mu.

hector gomez
25th August 2003, 14:25
No lightweight from the early era in boxing would have laid a glove on pernell"sweatpea"Wittaker.Duran,Hagler&Leonard could have fought in any of boxings past eras.Roy jones Jr would have beaten any Middle or Lightheavyweight champion of any era.

Chris byrd not even close to a being a legend would have outboxed Jack dempsey.The most famous heavyweight boxer of all time Mr.Cassius Clay(AKA Muhammad Ali)defines"EVOLUTION" better than any boxer of any period.


hip-hip-horray for the evolution of todays fighters

Hector Gomez

CEB
25th August 2003, 20:41
I think there is a certain predispostion to think that the younger generation is not comprised of as stern of stuff as our generation. I was talking to a reknown karate sensei who was a pioneer in propagating karate in the US in the 1950s. He also held black belt rank in Judo and was a boxer from the time he was a kid. He was convinced that boxers today don't have the hard hands that they used to have. He talked about the kid's reliance on bag gloves and other things. I remember how everyone used to talk about Roberto Duran's hard hands. Any opinions on this?

I'm a fan but was never involved with the boxing game so I defer to Hector's superior knowledge of the sweet science. Why are fighter's so much better now. Is it the nutrition, performance enhancing drugs and suppplements, use of video technology for analysis purposes, all the above and more? The concept of boxing seems simple enough and has had such a long history it is hard for me to picture much room for further refinement. What can the next generation know that Julio Cesar Chavez wasn't able to discover. It is kind of amazing that people can manage to squeeze out further refinements if you think about it, isn't it?

hector gomez
25th August 2003, 22:19
Ed you are so right in that refinement mostly comes in small incriments,sometimes we don't see the advancement or evolution but it definitely takes place.In the past running for boxing was simply about running real long distances for cardiovascualr endurance but today we know that running shorter distances at a faster pace is not only better for a fighter performance but helps reduce injuries in the long run.

Weight training was always looked upon as taboo for a ring fighter but with today personal trainers doing their homework,special routines are designed to include strenghth training,plyometrics and muscular endurance without sacrificing looseness & flexibilty,a must for any fighter

Nutrition & diet has improved dramatically as fighters know exactly what nutrition is great before and after each workout along with prefight meals that have been proven with time.


As far as techniques goes,one can always make the case about a jab,cross or hook being the same as hundred years ago but that comes with an improved delivery system & fight strategy as it is always being improved upon even if it comes in small tiny steps.


The great thing about boxing is that nobody really gives a rat a&^* about tradition as far as techniques goes,nobody is trying to emulate John L. sulivan.If someones proves a better way to punch in the ring with gloves on,trainers,managers & promoters will flock to the tactics regardless of where the idea comes from,besides $$$$$$$$$$$ is at stake,so if anyone knows of a more effective way to punch in the ring with gloves on, you could be rich if it works.ofcourse those measley little 8oz gloves throw everything off just a little,I guess.



Hector Gomez

Gene Williams
25th August 2003, 22:23
Ed, I'm not convinced that fighters are so much better now, but there is no way to know. What about Motobu, Kyan, Itosu and others? We can't see them fight. The reports about them are impressive. I just don't know. I do believe that our culture is softer and less productive of fighting material. Times were different in the 1800's and early 1900's. It is like the old West. Guys like Wyatt Earp and members of the Texas Rangers were a lot more willing to kill lawbreakers and those who were their enemies than we are. The men who fought in the War Between the States were a different breed...I'm not sure we are even of the same species. How about the guys that invaded Normandy (my Dad) and fought all the way into Berlin? I don't even believe that could happen today. We just are not the same people. My guess is that someone like Motobu would be a pretty rough opponent for Ali, Gracie, or anyone else...except of course the White Possum.

hector gomez
25th August 2003, 22:30
I am going to respond to that one Gene,but first let me get home and think real hard before I open my mouth and offend anyone or anybody.


PS.While we are at it,look up Motobus record for me.


Hector Gomez

Gene Williams
25th August 2003, 22:31
The White Possum slays his enemies with one deadly kiai!

Bustillo, A.
26th August 2003, 00:45
Originally posted by Gene Williams
Ed, I'm not convinced that fighters are so much better now, but there is no way to know. What about Motobu, Kyan, Itosu and others?


It is hard to say and not to take away anything from the founders, however, in many cases some folks probably do have more fighting experience than the old-timers.

While we wait for Hector.. I'll repeat from my earlier post.
______________________________________________________________

Let's leave aside 'ring experience and competition, in today's society, and depending on the area, zone, or city we can bet that police men, corrections officers, bodyguards, bouncers and just plain thugs who are also martial artist engage in comabt more often then some of the past karatekas could have possibly experienced in a small village.

A.B.
_____________________________________________________





In addition, today's access to knowledge and information helps too.

CEB
26th August 2003, 15:29
I think there is a tendency for some people to think that Okinawa is comprised of villiages. Maybe compared to Tokyo these cities are villiages but I was curious just how big some of these place were so I found some population numbers for Okinawa. The town I grew up near was the county seat and the second largest town in the county and its population was about 1,800 people. So these Okinawian towns look pretty big to me. I wonder what the population figures for say 1930 would look like. Does anybody have a source of information for this.

Chatan 26,500
Ginowan 88,900
Gushikawa 63,100
Haebaru 33,100
Hirara 34,200
Ishigaki 44,200
Ishikawa 22,000
Itoman 55,900
Nago 58,100
Naha 302,700
Nishihara 34,800
Okinawa (Koza) 122,000
Tomigusuku 52,600
Urasoe 106,200
Yomitan 37,700

hector gomez
26th August 2003, 15:39
Yes and while we are gathering info on these towns & cities,let's not forget to also look up Motobus actual fight records or folklore stories.



Hector Gomez

CEB
26th August 2003, 15:48
947 wins - 3 losses :)

Bustillo, A.
26th August 2003, 16:13
Originally posted by CEB
I think there is a tendency for some people to think that Okinawa is comprised of villiages. Maybe compared to Tokyo these cities are villiages but I was curious just how big some of these place were so I found some population numbers for Okinawa. The town I grew up near was the county seat and the second largest town in the county and its population was about 1,800 people. So these Okinawian towns look pretty big to me. I wonder what the population figures for say 1930 would look like. Does anybody have a source of information for this.

Chatan 26,500, Ginowan 88,900, Gushikawa 63,100, Haebaru 33,100
Ishikawa 22,000, Itoman 55,900, Nago 58,100, Naha 302,700
Nishihara 34,800
Okinawa (Koza) 122,000
Yomitan 37,700


Ed,

...not sure if you're joking.

The comparison was made between the large metropolitan 500,000 to 1 million + cities of today like Manhattan, Chicago, Miami, L.A. comapred to the make-up of villages, towms and cities of Itosu's and Hiagaona's 'era'.

hector gomez
26th August 2003, 16:14
I am sure that Motobu was a rough & tough customer willing to engage in combat at a drop of a dime but I have an easier time accessing the real fight abilities of someone like Mitsuo Maeda(count Koma) who actually traveled around the world before Motobus time and fought Champion boxers,wrestlers and all sorts of tough guys on various occasions.


Hector Gomez

CEB
26th August 2003, 16:31
Its not just size but also the indiginous culture that comes into the issue. A freind of when she was 17 ran around Tokyo with her other teenage freinds all hours of the night drinking beer out of vending machines and enjoying life. She told me they felt perfectly safe. She wouldn't have felt that secure in a US city one tenth of the size of Tokyo. Sadly I'm told Tokyo isn't quite like that anymore.

hector gomez
26th August 2003, 19:42
Fantasy fights

Motobu v.s Tito ortiz

Kyan v.s Rickson Gracie

Itosu v.s Mirko Cro cop

Oyama v.s Victor Belfort



Hector Gomez:kiss:

CEB
26th August 2003, 20:27
Originally posted by hector gomez
...

Kyan v.s Rickson Gracie

.....

Hector Gomez:kiss:

Kyan weighed in at about 85 pounds. I'm sorry for all you not so well endowed guys but you all know size matters baby!
:cool:

hector gomez
26th August 2003, 20:36
Wow,85lbs damm my 10 year old is playing tackle football on the 80lb team?


I guess the smallest Gracie would be Royler gracie at 145lb :laugh:


Hector Gomez

Gene Williams
26th August 2003, 22:54
The White Possum weighs 20 pounds and scorns your weight divisions. His ki radiance will blind his enemies and send them scurrying in fear:smilejapa

hectokan
27th August 2003, 00:00
Gene,LOL

Does anyone know Motobus height & weight?

CEB
27th August 2003, 15:20
The legends I always heard and read that IMO were perpetuated greatly by "The Karate Dojo" was that Motobu was a behemoth. All this talk of him being 7 feet tall or 6 feet tall always kind of made me suspect that there may have been a chinese milkman somewhere in the works. But alas, it appears that he may have been a human of Ryukyu proportions. Too bad I kind of liked the Chinese milkman theory.

from Graham Noble article
I first read about this colorful figure years ago in Peter Urban's book Karate Dojo. Although this has remained one of my favorite karate books, it has little value as a historical source and Urban describes Choki Motobu as a giant of 7'–p;4" "with hands and feet like monstrous hams" . . . an early Okinawan version of the Incredible Hulk in fact, who was almost impossible to hurt and who "preferred to grab his enemies and chop them to death." A couple of years later the American karateman, Robert Trias, trying to inject a note of reality (?) into the subject, told an interviewer that the accounts of Motobu's size had been exaggerated and that actually he was "only 6 feet 8 inches" tall.

All this was rather hard to believe and at one time I wrote to Richard Kim, the famous authority on karate history, about it. He kindly replied, stating that Motobu was a little under 6 feet tall and solidly built, weighing around 200 lbs. This sounded reasonable, yet as I learned more about Choki Motobu I had to constantly revise the estimates of his height downwards. In fact the existing photographs, taken in the 1920s and 1930s, show him to be no bigger, and in some cases smaller, than his training partners. The article in the old King magazine gives his height as 5 feet 3 or 4 inches and I would think this is correct. He was thus only a little bigger than some of the other early pioneers of Japanese karate such as Funakoshi, Mabuni and Konishi, although of a much heavier build. The photos we have of Motobu show him in middle age when he had put on weight and thickened appreciably round the waist. He had a sturdy, robust appearance but for a reputed strongman, the muscular development of his arms chest and back does not look particularly impressive, at least by today's standards.



from King magazine, Sept 1925
As the contestants entered the arena a cry arose from the crowd. "Look! A surprise entry""Who is this Motobu? I've never heard of him""he looks like an old man. What's someone like him entering a contest like this for?'
The contrast between the two men was striking. Here was a boxer, seemingly brimming with vitality, against a man of fifty who stood only 5 feet three or four inches.

Link - Graham Noble article (http://www.dragon-tsunami.org/Dtimes/Pages/articlec.htm)

Or read it here also (http://seinenkai.com/articles/noble/noble-motobu1.html)

Link to a translated Article I posted her a while back. The link in the posted is to a web page that has been taken down but article's translator does have a personal page I can get the address if you want. (http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10064&highlight=Motobu)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well it is almost Labor Day that means Duck season will soon be here and we will be getting a break for the heat. Ed likes duck season.

Link - Ed likes duck season. (http://www.cards-n-toons.com/view.php?c=humor_duckhunt)

Gene Williams
27th August 2003, 21:32
There is a bar not far from here in which it is always "duck" season.:D

hector gomez
27th August 2003, 21:49
How do the ducks look in your neck of the woods?Are they good looking ducks?:cool:



Hector Gomez

hector gomez
27th August 2003, 22:05
Ed, Thanks for posting the story on Choki Motobu.I am sure from all the accounts that we have ever hear of him and his fighting spirit are correct.He must have been a great fighter in his days,however against todays fighters:nono:



Hector Gomez

Gene Williams
27th August 2003, 22:08
Well, I meant duck your head, but now that you mention it last time I was there (I don't go at night anymore...you have to sit near the door if you want a seat in the squad car)there were two beautiful women in there that had nothing between them and the Lord but a pair of cutoffs and a Georgia Bulldog t shirt. If I had slipped going to the car I would have pole vaulted home:D

CEB
27th August 2003, 22:29
Originally posted by hector gomez
Ed, Thanks for posting the story on Choki Motobu.I am sure from all the accounts that we have ever hear of him and his fighting spirit are correct.He must have been a great fighter in his days,however against todays fighters:nono:

Hector Gomez

I don't know. Having trouble picturing how it would be much different today. Motubu's ring was the street. Say he fought against 3 tough Gracies. What could they do to him once Motobu jumped up on a roof and started bombing them with objects?



He was a good runner too, and Japanese karate expert Hiroyasu Tamae writes of one occasion when Motobu was fighting attackers then ran off, jumped nimbly onto a roof and began tearing off the roofing tiles and throwing them at his assailants, beating them off in this way. Tamae makes the point that Okinawan roof tiles are secured very strongly to withstand typhoons, and it requires powerful hands and arms to tear them loose

Gene Williams
27th August 2003, 22:35
Ed, Re: "what is more important..." How about a fantastical legend that satisfies logic:D

Markaso
13th September 2003, 01:07
Originally posted by CEB
What good is Kime? What do you think Kime is?

Mr. Boyd


According to the Shogakukan Progressive Japanese-English dictionary 3rd edition

Kime is described as this: A finishing stroke, a decisive blow.

As for frame of mind ... As I said before,with one thing added

I was taught that Kime was the very focused concentraion when ,during and after said punch was thrown.Not really a game face so-to-speak but more like the concentration and focus of Ki(inner energy)of that punch to one focal point.

Gene Williams
13th September 2003, 11:10
Yep. It was begun, after all, as a combat art. Funakoshi started all this martial arts "gun control", so to speak. Gene