Logic

[johan_frendin]

Gassho!

At WSKO website Aosaka sensei is interviewed about Shorinjikempo. In the interview ha say that "the logic talk is a bit too dominant" in Shorinjikempo. He goes on and and say "More fundamental techniques, repeated over and over within free play, doing it so that people can really use the techniques, that's what I like".

Shorinjikempo is supposed to be an effective tool for selfdefence but but has it become a theoretical martial art where logic thinking in both techniques and philosophy prevail and intuition is put aside?

Johan Frendin

[Philip_J]

Gassho Johan

Although I am not a very experienced kenshi, I think there are some tendencies towards “logic”. Maybe this is the result of the Shorinjkempo curriculum, with constantly new techniques to learn. There is not much time to “play” with the techniques you’ve already studied.

I have noticed with some kenshi that when you change an attack or do it more violently, the response tend to be somewhat “panic-like”. On the other hand that same kenshi can theoretically explain to you all the concepts of balance braking, distractions and so on.

In our club we try to practise a lot of juho-randori, which I think is a great way to play with techniques and to get a feel for the techniques in more “chaos-like” circumstances.

Philip Jäderberg

[Tripitaka of AA]

A tendency to talk about it,rather than do it! I'm sure I don't know what you mean!! ;)

Nobody could be more guilty of this than me. 600+ posts on E-Budo and I still haven't been near a Dojo in 15 years. Yes, of course it happens that people become more adept at talking about, or writing about, what is fundamentally a physical act. Sometimes it is these people who make the best teachers. Then again, they may fall far short of the physical dexterity of the person who can do the technique a hundred times without fault.

It may be relevant, that Aosaka Sensei has spent the last 20 (30?) years teaching Shorinji Kempo to people who do not speak the same language as he does. His need to relate the knowledge is more often hindered by words than helped. Actions speak louder.

On the other hand, my memory of watching Aosaka Sensei in action is notable for the amount of times I said " Wow, HOW did he do that!!?". Words are sometimes needed, to pick out the dtails that have escaped the human eye.

[johan_frendin]

Gassho!

I agree with Aosaka sensei about that Shorinjikempo is sometimes to logical.
If we look at Shorinjikempo we constantly learn new techniques and new ways of moving our bodies. As soon as we take a belt we immediately get a lot of new moves and there is very little time to study our “old” techniques deeper. New kenshi almost immediately get the idea that the thicker your notebook is the better you are.

As Aosaka I am very interested in playing with basic techniques and let them come alive. If we only practice fixed (dead) techniques logic thinking will surely prevail and intuition will be put aside. A dead (fixed) attack will make a dead response. Even if you have five ways of doing a technique the attack is fixed and will only lead to logical thinking and not to intuition. The only thing you can do to learn intuition is to start playing with the techniques in free play. No fixed fotpositions, no fixed body movement, no fixed attacks but only free play.

Is Aosaka senseis opinion about “to much logic” true in the philosophical area of Shorinjikempo to? If we can not play with the philosophy we will become parrots copying our senseis words. Then we will educate kenshi with logical thinking and with “high score” in gakka subjects at grading exams. But do they learn how to act out the philosophy in the society this way?

Kongo zen say that action always is prior to thought but if we critical examine the way we practice and teach it often seems to be the other way around?

Best regards

Johan Frendin

[sean dixie]

Gasho Johan,

Hmmmm, interesting point.Only the other day we did some Juho randori (The first for a very long time)and I found to my suprise that I was having a few problems applying technique to a beginner. I think as we move up through the grades we come accross a lot of problem solving techniques, meaning those instances at kyu grade that we just had to deal with are specifically put in at dan level, a lot of them dealing with okuri gote and the difficulties that arrive with that technique seem to be endless! In our dojo(Mizuno Senseis)we spend more time on juho as this is the more difficult aspect of Go/Ju. Yet we never do Juho randori. Well, in the spirit of Shorinji Kempo I guess it's up to me!:D I'll simply start practicing at the end of lessons, will also ask Mizuno Sensei next lesson his opinion on the subject of Juho randori and why we don't practice more of it.

[Kimpatsu]

Gassho.
Sean: when I was training under Mizuno Sensei, we often did juho randori, so I think you should say, "we haven't done any juho randori yet," rather than say, "we never do juho randori".
As for Shorinji Kempo being "too logical", I don't think anything can ever be "too logical"; how can something suffer from a surfeit of reason? Rather, I think of understanding of techniques like integral calculus; by adding up all the little bits of X (the elements that go to make a technique correct, such as balance, timing, accuracy, etc.), you arrive at the sum total, which is the technique itself. But the obverse is also true; we can differentiate a technique (i.e., retro-engineer it) to see what its components are. That's how techniques are grouped into families, such as Tennoken and Ryuoken: by common elements. What Aosaka Sensei seems to be saying is that we shouldn't lose sight of the whole technique by becoming fixated on a single element or elements (good advice, as always). But without the integration, we will never arrive at the sum of the parts.
Just my 1+1 yen worth...
Kesshu.

[johan_frendin]

Gassho !

As I stated in another thread modern sport science has the following order of learning techniques:

1. Introduce yourself with the technique
2. Understand small, fine movements of the techniques (Jitsugi)
3. Try to make the techniques like a reflex (Embu or grading practice)
4. Get a general understanding of technique (Randori, application)

Logic thinking is very important in level 1-3 but in level 4 intuition is EVERYTHING.

Trough intuition (randori) we move ourselves into a landscape that is pretty much “unknown” and if we want to orientate in this landscape logic thinking must be abandoned. It is to slow.

One odd thing in traditional martial arts is that people believe that techniques have some sort of value to your "muscle memory". The idea that a move repeated many times, becomes smoother and more accessible when doing randori. Repeating a technique over and over again will do very little for your reflexes or so-called 'muscle memory'. In fact, repeating a technique over and over again in the same pattern can actually be counter productive to your bodies ability to respond quickly. Of course you need to go through level 1-3 but if you never enter level 4 you will actually reduce your ability to respond accurately to a random attack even if you know 200 techniques.

Why?

Because logic thinking dominates you totally and intuition is put aside.

If this is true to the physical learning of Shorinjikempo why should the philosophical learning be different?

Best regards

Johan Frendin

[Kimpatsu]

Gassho.
Intuition is logic as reflex, so to say that, "Logic thinking is very important in level 1-3 but in level 4 intuition is EVERYTHING" is to say logic is important in levels 1 to 3, and everything in level 4. Remember Sherlock Holmes's explanation to Watson in their first meeting in "A Study in Scarlet"? Holmes explains every logical step of his deduction as to why Watson had recently returned from Afghanistan, but also admitted that he didn't consciously think his way through the steps, but rather, that he had grasped the facts of Watson's travels on an intuitive level. That intuition, however, could be broken down logically, step by step, which leads as back to the differential calculus example. Now, that really is an intuitive leap.
Kesshu.

[sean dixie]

Sean: when I was training under Mizuno Sensei, we often did juho randori, so I think you should say, "we haven't done any juho randori yet," rather than say, "we never do juho randori".

Tony, you havn't been training here regularly for a quite while. Having been training with Mizuno Sensei for the last nine/ten years I can honestly say I could count the times we have practiced Juho randori on one hand...Oh dear, pleeaasse don't ask for the exact number, that would be so boring. Of course, I could say "we havn't done any Juho randori yet," but I felt that after the amount of time spent in Mizuno Senseis class, "we never do Juho randori" was more applicable. Of course what I should have said was "we very rarely do juho randori"

As a point of interest should we not also say "Science has no evidence for the existance of God YET"?

[Kimpatsu]

Gassho.
When I was captain of Brixton, we went through a phase of doing juho randori every session. Why not ask Mizuno Sensei if you can do some during training? I'm sure he'd be happy to oblige.
As to your statement, "Science has no evidence for the existence of God YET":
Science has evidence contradicting the existence of the Abrahamic god, which I why I'm an atheist, not an agnostic. As to any other sort of god: yes, you should add "yet", but bear in mind that not only has no evidence been forthcoming in 15 billion years, the universe is exactly as it would be if no god existed. Therefore, I conclude confidently that god doesn't exist, because if she did, the universe would be ordered totally differently. But that's a discussion for another thread.
Kesshu.