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ScottUK
23rd September 2000, 12:16
Can anyone tell me how Iaido came from traditional Samurai swordsmanship? There is plenty of Iaido info re: different styles, but no history on it's origins. Anyone?

Regards

Scott Halls
Iaidoka (un)extraordinaire

Kamuii
13th October 2000, 21:12
Greetings! :)

Wasn't it from Kenjutsu to Kendo, Iaijutsu to Iaido and Battojutsu to Batto Do?

Best,

Arnold Vargas
Genbukan Satoichi Dojo
&
Tsunami-Ryu Bujutsu

ScottUK
15th October 2000, 23:13
Hi Arnold,
Thanks for the reply, but I am trying to get a decent picture of how the techniques of Iai developed from battlefield swordsmanship. Any ideas?

Regards

Scott Halls
Iaidoka (un)extraordinaire

RDeppe
16th October 2000, 19:33
Go check out the thread going on right now at

Draeger & MSR/MJER Bashing - in the Sword Arts forum

This thread is located at:
http://204.95.207.136/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=2309

Mitch Saret
17th October 2000, 04:37
Actually it's my understanding (and I could be wrong, it has happened once or twice) that Iaido/Iaijutsu was more the quick draw. Comprable to the fast gun of the old west. Kenjutsu was the techniques of the battlefield. The soldier drew his sword to prepare for the battle, used it, then when the day was done, put it away. The two were separate as you did not have to be a fast draw on the battlefield as your sword was already out. At least that's what seems to make sense.

Kamuii
17th October 2000, 07:44
Mitch:

Yes, I agree. Iaijutsu is the fast draw(and cutting at the same time), the cutting technique, cleaning and putting away...basiclly. Kenjutsu is the art of the sword for combat.

Best,

Arnold :)

Yojimbo558
18th October 2000, 01:21
Hi Scott,

Iai...what was it for and where it came from so to speak. Decent questions :)

Iai as has been stated earlier deals with the quick draw. Iaijutsu is a supplemental sword system to Kenjutsu, and was developed to protect the swordsman when he was attacked ( ambushed ) by an attacker who already had his weapon drawn and ready. The goal of Iaijutsu was to draw and kill with your opponent with your first cut ( ideally ).

During the Tokugawa period, with the age of peace largely descending over the country. The chance and opportunity for combat experience on the battlefield was a rarity. The dueling became more prominent.

The ability to kill with the first cut was not lost upon the peasants who had no rights, and referred to both Battojutsu & Iaijutsu as cross roads murder. As some Samurai would test their efficiency upon innocent bystandards to refine their skill!!

Interestingly in the West Iai is often studied more often as an art first than some type of sword system. This usually occured with Westerners who over focused on the idea of killing with the first cut and forgetting that this is a supplemental system and was not ment to stand alone in teaching the individual how to survive the battlefield.

Hope that helps,

Eric Bookin

MarkF
18th October 2000, 08:51
Perhaps someone could verify or tell me I am out of my gord, but isn't the difference between the two that iai is the art of drawing and cutting, done alone, and batto is the same but with the actual cutting being most important, say with makiwara?

I have already gotten this much help, but if Guy or anyone else with experience in cutting air and makiwara are out there, might he comment?

Mark

PS: It is the picture of Guy's teacher making a diagonal cut on a makiwara, but is left standing, as if no force at all was used which first got me. That was some neat trick.:)

pboylan
22nd October 2000, 17:53
Iai and Kenjutsu are not seperate arts. They are two parts of the one art of the sword. Kenjutsu focuses on two man forms practiced with bokuto (wooden swords) that teach timing, movement and spacing, while iai is solo practice with a live blade so the student learns how to handle live blades, which have VERY different properties than bokuto.

Iai, batto, and about 20 other terms all refer to the act of drawing the blade. Not necessarily quickly, but they all imply starting with a sheathed sword. The idea that batto has primarily to do with cutting comes from the fact that the Battodo Renmei in Japan spends a great deal of time cutting up stuff.

Peter Boylan

gato
27th October 2000, 17:19
Kenjitsu and iaido may look similar but they're in fact very
different .
Post your question in the sword arts forum.I'm sure you will receive a lot of interesting information about the subject

Nelson Sanz

MarkF
28th October 2000, 09:51
I think since the original poster (ScottUK) asked about iaido, he probably thought this would be the place, and he isn't so wrong.

The problem really isn't in posting in the "correct" forum, but the lack of koryu sword people checking all forums, instead of the one which interests them the most.

Also, why no comments or posts about sword and defense against the sword in the judo forum? Even in the newest of Kodokan judo books, there are a few in the kime no kata section. There are some in the Kodokan Goshin Jutsu kata as well, but they use a stick instead.:smokin:

Mark

ScottUK
28th October 2000, 17:02
Thanks for all your replies, but I my train of thought was to post here as I wasn't specifically asking a sword question - more of a Samurai history question.

My (unfounded) opinion was that iai was once a part of kenjutsu - if an opponent was not defeated with the initial cut (iaido?), then what followed could be what we now know as kenjutsu. My real question was 'how did Iai first originate from swordsmanship?' How did it become it's own martial art?

Once again, thanks to you all

Best Regards

Erik Tracy
30th October 2000, 15:34
Various sword arts have varying "traditions" as to how the idea of drawing and cutting in one motion was created.

The one which we have in Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu is that Hiyashizake Jinsuke Shigenobu (the first grandmaster of this tradition, c. 1540)wanted to avenge his father's death at the hands of another samurai during a duel.

He went to a shrine, meditated (for the requisite time, of course ) and was divinely inspired for formulating a system which is the basis for "iai" - although he called it "batto".

He successfully avenged his father's death.

There has been confusion over at the "Sword Forum" as to what the meaning of kenjutsu is. But strictly speaking, yes, all the "stuff" after the sword has been drawn is kenjutsu - from a technical standpoint. The comment is not to be taken as to imply that all kenjutsu "traditions" are subsumed into iai. Simply that fighting with drawn swords is ken-jutsu, i.e. sword combat.

The development of "iai" from kenjutsu can be argued for both preemptive attack (even, gasp, assasination) or defense. I'd guess it's a combination of both.

Sal
14th November 2000, 01:49
Iaido is an ideal sword art if you aren't into beating the living daylights out of someone or visa versa. Iai has several styles & variations- the main being Jikiden & Shinden styles which are basically the same except the way the sword is drawn & put away & Jikiden being the 'elite' as it is not as common as Shinden. Iai is done alone where you have to imagine your opponent & Kenjutsu is with an opponent & slightly less painful on the knees! The iaido kata typically involves the draw, cut, chiburi (shaking the blood off the sword) and noto (putting the sword away) there are 10 seite kata (or 12- i think 2 more have just been introduced), 4 of them begin in the seiza (kneeling) postion the rest is done standing, Kenjustsu is just standing.

ghp
14th November 2000, 06:03
Yojimbo,


The ability to kill with the first cut was not lost upon the peasants who had no rights, and referred to both Battojutsu & Iaijutsu as cross roads murder. As some Samurai would test their efficiency upon innocent bystandards to refine their skill!!

This was called "kiri-sute-gomen" and means "kill,throw away, and say your're sorry ." It sometimes is just "kiri-sute" -- kill and toss. However popular the idea is with movies and novels, it was not a common practice. Although it was a right certain samurai held, I'm sure it was not given to everybody. Imagine some passerby killing one of your peasants! Also, even though kirigomensute did happen, it was frowned upon.

Sal,


Jikiden & Shinden styles which are basically the same except the way the sword is drawn & put away & Jikiden being the 'elite' as it is not as common as Shinden.

Well, actually Muso Shinden Ryu is a recent variation of Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu (... the "Jikiden" style has long since vanished). Nakayama Hakudo, a headmaster of the Shimomura faction of MJER, developed his version in 1932 -- and called it Muso Shinden Ryu. The forms in MSR are easily recognizable to MJER practicioners. So, in fact MJER is the "elite" if you really insist on that word. And there are many, many more practicioners of MJER than MSR -- I think MJER is the most populous style of iai now practiced.


Iai is done alone where you have to imagine your opponent & Kenjutsu is with an opponent & slightly less painful on the knees! The iaido kata typically involves the draw, cut, chiburi (shaking the blood off the sword) and noto (putting the sword away) there are 10 seite kata (or 12- i think 2 more have just been introduced), 4 of them begin in the seiza (kneeling) postion the rest is done standing, Kenjustsu is just standing.

It sounds like you are describing the seitei waza used in kendo. Although there are now 12 waza in the kendo iai section, there are many, many more in the other styles.

Lots to learn ... as you are finding out. I usually don't frequent this particular forum. You'll probably get better answers on the "Sword Arts" forum listed under "Koryu Bujutsu."

Regards,
Guy

[Edited by ghp on 11-14-2000 at 12:09 AM]

MarkF
14th November 2000, 07:57
Hi, Sal. Welcome from across the pond. Please not E-budo policy and sign your full name to your posts. You can use the signature feature to do this for you.

Thanks.:)

Mark