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JIGOKU
10th August 2001, 10:40
hi there
I posted this question already in the bujinkan question
but somebody outside the takamatsu traditions might know more about that.
in serge mol`s new book about classical japanese fighting arts i run across the name TANAKA FUMON
he holds sokeship in Shinden Fudo Ryu, Koto Ryu, Kukishin Ryu and other arts. what do you know about him ???
thanks for every hint

fifthchamber
10th August 2001, 13:28
Hello,
This is'nt much help I know, but Sensei Fumon is connected to the 'Jitsu' federation in England I think,as a patron of their arts. wether this means that he provides tuition at their seminars I have no idea as I am not a member but try typing it into a search engine and see wether they can provide you with any details on the subject....

O'Neill
14th January 2003, 18:24
Anyone have info on this teacher. He has some unique claims and lots of them. The guys that claim so many lineages do raise red flags as it takes a lifetime to master a tradition (in most cases). Is he a solid koryu teacher?

CKohalyk
15th January 2003, 04:08
To see a scanned version of his business card go to the following Yahoo Briefcase:

id: tanaka_fumon
password: ireland

Judge for yourself.

O'Neill
15th January 2003, 19:12
Sorry, but how do I view this?

Moriki
17th January 2003, 15:10
Dear friends,
Here is some of Fumon Tanaka Sensei`s lineage.

MINAKI DEN KUKISHIN RYU BOJUTSU

1.ORIEMON SHIGETOSHI TAKAGI
2.UMANOSUKE SHIGESADA TAKAGI
3.GENNOSHIN HIDESHIGE TAKAGI
4.KIHEI SHIGENOBU OHKUNI
5.YAKUROH NOBUTOSHI OHKUNI
6.TARODAYU TADANOBU OHKUNI
7.KIHEI YOSHISADA OHKUNI
8.YOZAEMON YOSHIZANE OHKUNI
9.JINNAI SADAHIDE NAKAYAMA
10.BUZAEMON HIDENOBU OHKUNI
11.KAEMON SADASHIGE NAKAYAMA
12.KAMAHARU HIDETOSHI OHKUNI
13.IKUGOROH HISAYOSHI YAGI
14.TAKEO MASATSUGU ISHIYA (ISHITANI)
15.MATSUTARO MASAHARU ISHIYA (ISHITANI)
16.HACHIHEITA MASAYOSHI KAKUNO
17.SABUROJI MASANORI MINAKI
18.KYUDO MATSUDA (one day Soke)
19.FUMON TANAKA

SOHDEN KUKAMI SHIN RYU

1.YAKUSHIMARU KURANDO
2.SABURO BETSYO (TAKANORI KOJIMA)
3.MINBU YOSHIKANE OHUCHI
4.GOROMARU KATSUSHIGE OHUCHI
5.SABUROBYOE MASAYOSHI HATAKEYAMA
6.KAWACHINOKAMI YOSHIE OHKUNI
7.KIHEI HISAYOSHI OHKUNI
8.DAISUKE TADAAKI ARIMA
9.KAWACHINOSUKE MASAYOSHI ARIMA
10.UKON KURIYAMA
11.SHINPACHIRO HOSOYA
12.ITTOSAI NYOSUI KIMURA
13.GETSUI YOSHISHIGE KIMURA
14.SHIMA MASANOBU OHSUMI
15.TOYOTAROH EBA
16.MATSUTAROH TADAAKI ISHIYA (ISHITANI)
17.NANGAKU TOMOHARU IWAMI
18.KOHDOHSENYOKAI ORGANIZATION
A. TAKAHARU KUKI
B. KAHEI MATSUBARA
C. IHEI MATSUMOTO
19.FUMON TANAKA

As for his lineage for Koto ryu, Bokuden ryu etc... Maybe this has come from Kaminaga Shigemi Sensei?

hope this helps
Brian Carpenter
DOJO CHO
GWNBF/KJJR UK KOMORI DOJO

Moriki
17th January 2003, 15:47
Here`s some info here:
http://www4.justnet.ne.jp/~s.kenniti/Fkai/fkaiA.html

As for the Iga ryu Ninpo thing on his business card, he does`nt actually claim grandmastership of this school. Maybe he is a researcher of Ninpo rather than a Ninja grandmaster?

here is a list of Fumon Tanaka Sensei`s ranks

KOBUDO HACHI DAN
KODEN ENSHIN RYU KUMIUCHI KENDEN 11th SOKE
HONMON ENSHIN RYU IAI, SUEMONOGIRI, KENPO 4th SOKE
KUKISHIN RYU 19th SOKE
TENSHIN HYOHO SODEN KUKAMISHIN RYU 19th SOKE

HONTAI TAKAGI YOSHIN RYU SOKE DAIRI
KOTO RYU SOKE DAIRI
BOKUDEN RYU SOKE DAIRI
SHINTO TENSHIN RYU (TENSHIN KORYU) SOKE DAIRI
SHINDENFUDO RYU SOKE DAIRI
ASAYAMA ICHIDEN RYU SOKE DAIRI

yours
Brian Carpenter
Dojo Cho
GWNBF/KJJR UK KOMORI DOJO

George Kohler
17th January 2003, 17:59
Originally posted by Moriki
As for his lineage for Koto ryu, Bokuden ryu etc... Maybe this has come from Kaminaga Shigemi Sensei?

Yes, it is from Kaminage Shigemi. I'm not sure if he is actually training in these, though.

Moriki
19th January 2003, 12:07
originally posted by Yobina

Most every Japanese I've mentioned Tanaka Fumon to has laughed out loud and exclaimed "Oh, a ninja eh?"

According to most the Koryu people I have spoke to, Sensei Tanaka is a well respected Martial artist and considered by most Japanese as one of Japan`s most excellent swordsmen. Obviously there is some bad vibes among some of the Koryu teachers in Japan, but I think we can say that, of all the Soke in Japan regardless of which style they practice. I have heard many great masters being slagged off and at the end of the day it usually boils down to politics. As martial artists we should have better conduct and spend more time training rather than wasting time disrespecting.
I have seen Soke Tanaka in action and I can say that he is an amazing Martial artist with much skill and knoweledge.

yours
Brian Carpenter
GWNBF/KJJR UK KOMORI DOJO

Moriki
20th January 2003, 09:11
Check out Tanaka Sensei`s Koden Enshin Ryu video!

http://buyubooks.com/product_details.cfm?id=10524

yours
Brian Carpenter
Dojo Cho
GWNBF/KJJR UK KOMORI DOJO

fifthchamber
20th January 2003, 13:38
Hi Rick.
Tanaka-S. claims a slightly different line from those claimed by either Hatsumi-S. or Tanemura Sensei, although the lines were the same up until Ishitani (Ishiya) Matsutaro Sensei, who taught Takamatsu Sensei among others including Kakuno Hachiheita Masayoshi-S. The line of Kukishin Ryu that Tanaka-S claims leads through Kakuno-S to Minaki Saburoji Masanori and then to Matsuda Kyodo who left it to Tanaka Fumon.
The lines after/during Takamatsu Sensei's lifetime are very confusing but it can help to look closely at Japanese sources rather than rely on English ones...Good places to start are the Ueno Sensei Memorial booklet (and translation in English) that has both Tanemura Sensei and Tanaka Fumon mentioned in it and also possibly Serge Mol's recent Jujutsu book as it also lists Tanaka Fumon's line of Kukishin Ryu and you can see better where the splits occurred. You may be able to get the Ueno Sensei memorial still from www.buyubooks.com although they sold fast!
As mentioned above the other schools have Tanaka-S listed as Soke Dairi and not as Soke and they all came through Kaminaga Shigemi, (Right? The info I have here is not entirely up to date on these schools...They end with Kaminaga-S) another of Ueno Takashi Sensei's students....
Tanaka Fumon is also listed in the 'Nihon Kobudo Soran' as the head (Soke) of the Kukishin Ryu after Minaki Saburoji as of Heisei 9 anyway (Around 1998 I believe) and is listed under 'other Martial Arts' so at least at that time he was 'officially recognised by the Nihon Kobudo Kyokai who published the book....
The maze is very long, and confusing also...Even in English.
Hope that helps some?
Regards.

John Lindsey
20th January 2003, 15:50
I few years ago, Tanaka Fumon was trying to get menkyo in Takagi-ryu. Part of the reason was because his Kukishin-ryu line had no Takagi-ryu in it, which can make things a little difficult in terms of respectability. The two go together and when one is missing, it can bring up questions. Its like you can't make a ham and cheese sandwich without cheese...

The last I heard about this, I was told that someone related to the Uneo line did give make him a "shihan" in the art, but no menkyo kaiden. Anyone have any additional info on that?

Todd Schweinhart
20th January 2003, 21:48
Hello,

Just thought I would add a few small points to the discussion.

I, too, must reinforce that I have heard several other koryu soke and kaidensha comment that Tanaka sensei was one of the best swordsmen in Japan.

Also it isn't totally true that Tanaka sensei branch of kukishin ryu doesn't contain Takagi Ryu. It is from the Ishiya Takeo line and did originally contain the jujutsu curriculum. To be sure I have also seen an old video of Tanaka sensei doing the Takagi Ryu jujutsu with Minaki sensei. Although, the licensing he has for Kukishin ryu doesn't actually license him for Takagi Ryu Jujutsu to my knowledge.

I also seem to remember reading in his Koryu Kenjutsu book that he credits some of his training to Tanemura sensei for some of the arts. Can anyone check the book in the back and add to this? I have loaned my copy to a friend and don't have it handy. It is possible I am totally incorrect on this.

Whatever the case may be, I would think it to be very rude to talk badly about him being that he has also dedicated his life to martial arts. I am quite sure that some of his licensing was earned the old fashioned way.

Best,
Todd Schweinhart
Louisville Kentucky

John Lindsey
20th January 2003, 22:40
I also seem to remember reading in his Koryu Kenjutsu book that he credits some of his training to Tanemura sensei for some of the arts.

This is true. They seem to still be on good terms from what I have been told. He did approach Tanemura Sensei about learning shuriken jutsu, but that didn't work out for some reason. Later, he wrote a book or a chapter on it, so he must have gone elsewhere. He also approached Tanemura Sensei about the Takagi-ryu certification. It was like you said, he had some basic knowledge of the ryuha, but no paperwork to back it up.

Todd Schweinhart
20th January 2003, 23:06
Thanks for the reply John!

This is all very interesting. I was under the impression that Serge Mol received some type of Takagi Ryu jujutsu licensing from Tanaka sensei according to his book. I again could be wrong but it appeared that way. I have also seen pictures of some various Takagi Yoshin ryu densho that are in the possesion of Tanaka sensei so again I may be digging here. Can anyone spill the beans as to whether or not he has received formal licensing in Takagi Ryu or any of its branches?
Thanks in advance!

Best,
Todd Schweinhart
Louisville Kentucky

George Kohler
21st January 2003, 02:46
When I first heard of Tanaka Fumon I was under the impression that he learned Minaki-den Kukishin ryu bojutsu and Fumon Yoshin ryu jujutsu. At least that was what I saw on a lineage chart that I saw in the early 90's.

BTW, what was the name of this school before Minaki changed the name to Fumon Yoshin ryu? Was it Takagi ryu or Hontai Yoshin ryu? I know he later changed it from Fumon Yoshin ryu to Hontai Yoshin ryu.

John Lindsey
21st January 2003, 05:29
Todd, it is very possible that he received further rank after being awarded the 'shihan' title.

Todd Schweinhart
21st January 2003, 05:55
John,
This may very well be true. I am almost positive that Tanaka sensei has done some training with Kaminaga Shigemi sensei too.

George,
The school that Minaki sensei received Menkyo Kaiden in was Hontai Yoshin Takagi Ryu Jujutsu from Ishiya Matsutaro through Kakuno Happeita. When Kakuno sensei passed the tradition to a family member, a one Tsutsui sensei, Minaki sensei went off to do austere training at Fumon Waterfalls. He then changed the name to Fumon Yoshin ryu and at a later date changed it to Hontai Yoshin ryu. It is interesting that many people don't see the resemblance of HYR to Takagi ryu but that may be because most haven't seen the Ishiya den (Takeo) Takagi ryu. Most people have only seen the branch from the son of Takeo (Matsutaro) as in the bujinkan but the two are obviously different. The traces of the techniques from Takagi ryu definately show in HYR, not to mention some of the exact jujutsu and bojutsu kata. Sorry for being long winded here.

Hope this helps,
Todd Schweinhart
Louisville Kentucky

Moriki
21st January 2003, 11:44
I also seem to remember reading in his Koryu Kenjutsu book that he credits some of his training to Tanemura sensei for some of the arts.

A few years ago Sensei Tanaka told me that he handmakes Shuriken, and that he and Tanemura Sensei would practice together to try them out.
When I was training with Sensei Tanaka he allways spoke highly of Tanemura Sensei.

yours
Brian Carpenter
Dojo Cho
GWNBF/KJJR UK KOMORI DOJO

O'Neill
21st January 2003, 15:01
Hoe good (precise,fluid) was the jujutsu of Tanaka sensei?

George Kohler
21st January 2003, 16:27
Originally posted by Todd Schweinhart
The school that Minaki sensei received Menkyo Kaiden in was Hontai Yoshin Takagi Ryu Jujutsu from Ishiya Matsutaro through Kakuno Happeita.

Hi Todd,

Great to hear from you again. Minaki received MK from Ishiya sensei? Didn't Minaki get MK during the 1930's?

When did Ishiya (Ishitani) Matsutaro pass away? Students of Takamatsu sensei use 1909 or 1910 as the year, but others imply other wise. Iwami Nangaku claims Ishiya gave him MK, but he did not receive it until 1920's. I've also heard that Ishiya Takao is the one who passed away 1909. Do we know when Takao and Matsutaro passed away?



Originally posted by Todd Schweinhart
Most people have only seen the branch from the son of Takeo (Matsutaro) as in the bujinkan but the two are obviously different.

I was under the impression that the Bujinkan branch was from Mizuta and not Ishiya. And even then there is some evidence that Mizuta did not learn it from a Fujita, but from another person.

Todd Schweinhart
22nd January 2003, 04:44
Hey guys,

Great discussion, we should start back up the private room that we once had since no one else is contributing. It is difficult to say who is who in the Ishiya family. But it was the father (Takeo not Matsutaro) that passed at Takamatsu sensei house around 1909 (I think, or was it the other way around?:-). Many people confuse the names and just assume that anytime they here of Ishiya (Ishitani) that it must be Matsutaro. It is very confusing though, even without the same last names there is enough in the denkei to confuse us anyway.

I am not sure if Mizuta sensei trained with Fujita sensei or someone else but whichever person he studied with had to have trained with Fujita sensei due to the structure of the kata still practiced.

As for the Menkyo kaiden for Minaki sensei. His licensing is from Kakuno sensei but permission was asked from Ishiya Matsutaro to my knowledge. I think this was only a formality since Kakuno sensei was himself Menkyo kaiden from Ishiya Takeo.

Sorry to confuse everyone even more with the names. We all know that Takamatsu sensei has already given us our share of the name game.

Best,
Todd Schweinhart
Louisville Kentucky

George Kohler
22nd January 2003, 19:50
Originally posted by Todd Schweinhart
Great discussion, we should start back up the private room that we once had since no one else is contributing.

Yes, that would be great.


Originally posted by Todd Schweinhart
It is difficult to say who is who in the Ishiya family. But it was the father (Takeo not Matsutaro) that passed at Takamatsu sensei house around 1909 (I think, or was it the other way around?:-). Many people confuse the names and just assume that anytime they here of Ishiya (Ishitani) that it must be Matsutaro. It is very confusing though, even without the same last names there is enough in the denkei to confuse us anyway.

Very confusing. I wish we had the records to see what the dates were.


Originally posted by Todd Schweinhart
I am not sure if Mizuta sensei trained with Fujita sensei or someone else but whichever person he studied with had to have trained with Fujita sensei due to the structure of the kata still practiced.

I don't have my sources right now, but I will go into this later.

Moriki
23rd January 2003, 17:33
I also seem to remember reading in his Koryu Kenjutsu book that he credits some of his training to Tanemura sensei for some of the arts. Can anyone check the book in the back and add to this?

Hello Todd,
It says "Genbukan Ninpo. Tanemura Shoto Soke Takamatsu Den Kukishin ryu Sojutsu and Takagi ryu Jujutsu"
How much of this training he actually did with Tanemura Sensei I`m not sure?

yours
Brian Carpenter
GWNBF/KJJR UK KOMORI DOJO

Todd Schweinhart
24th January 2003, 09:02
Thanks for the update Brian. I thought there was something in there about Spear and Takagi ryu Jujutsu. It would be interesting to find out what that actually entails. Best way is to contact Tanaka Fumon sensei directly I would think.

Anyone know about Bob Parker from the "Price is Right" show doing Takagi Ryu? No, the price is wrong! Great movie! Happy Gilmore

On a serious note...Any other interesting topics for discussion? This is like searching for the holy grail or something.

Best,
Todd Schweinhart
Louisville Kentucky

Eric Baluja
6th June 2003, 11:08
I just saw a book in English (possibly his first book in English?) by Tanaka Fumon Sensei titled Samurai Fighting Arts: The Spirit and the Practice. Does anyone have any comments about the book?

Also, while I understand that he is respected by some koryu authorities, shouldn't it seem strange that he is the headmaster (or "representative" headmaster, as he identifies himself) of so many ryu-ha? Memory fails me, but he lists himself as soke for at least five koryu and soke dairi (I think that's the term he's translating using the word "representative") of quite a few more, maybe about eight.

I don't wish to be disrespectful; it's just my curiosity that's gotten the better of me. Thank you for your patience.

O'Neill
6th June 2003, 16:08
I have noticed that trend too. Look at the resume of Ueno sensei and some of his students. Far too many arts for one person to have truly mastered. I have never seen Tanaka sensei move, maybe he is great- but it seems unlikely that anyone can head up that many arts or have truly mastered them. Smells fishy.

Eric Baluja
6th June 2003, 16:49
On the other hand, maybe it varies depending on what ryu you're talking about. If the ryu is at this point no more than a list of techniques (i.e., if all the 'things' that make up a koryu other than lineage and old documents are gone) then I guess it would be fairly easy to be soke of such a ryu and any number of similarly 'de-blooded' ryu. I'm NOT saying that this is the case with Tanaka Fumon Sensei, BTW. I'm just saying that, in general, from my very narrow and ignorant point of view, the only conceivable way to be a headmaster of many ryu would be if some of the ryu were no more than brush strokes on paper.

Actually, in thinking about it, another possibility would be that the headmaster possesses extraordinary, almost divine talent. Not likely given that there's no way to actually test this talent anymore, but within the realm of extreme possibility I guess.

CKohalyk
7th June 2003, 02:36
To learn a bit more about Tanaka, check this thread:
http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=13641&perpage=15&pagenumber=2


If you want to see his business card, I scanned it and gave it to Alex Meehan. PM him to see if he still has it.

CK

Eric Baluja
9th June 2003, 15:02
I was aware that it had been discussed but it wasn't clear that the previous conversation actually came to a conclusion on the subject.

The first few comments in the previous thread indicated that he was not terribly well perceived in some sectors of the koryu community. Others stated that he had sought to obtain documentation to bolster his claims. Still others asserted that he is one of the most respected sword art practitioners (can't say "swordsmen", no such thing anymore) in Japan. Finally, the discussion trailed off somewhat based on the assumption that he is fully legit.

In any event, my question was "shouldn't it seem strange that he is the headmaster (or "representative" headmaster, as he identifies himself) of so many ryu-ha?" I guess what I'm basically trying to find out is if this is as unusual a phenomenon as it seems or if this sort of thing happens all the time and I just didn't know it (outside of the 'Takamatsu-den', that is).

Also, my first question was about his book! Has anyone bought/read it?

Thanks!

Just some guy
9th June 2003, 16:18
Hi Eric,
Though it's not something that happens a lot, being Soke of more than one Ryu does happen from time to time. One example off the top of my head is Koroda Tetsuzan. Also, Shinto Muso Ryu Jo also has several Fuzoku Budo with in its study also. Don't remember how many exactly but I think that the count was something like five or six.
If Ellis Amdur doesn't mind me refering from his book Old School (great book on Budo for those who haven't read it BTW) he mentioned that those Ryu have been together that they seem to be on the point of becoming one Mega Ryu. Noot to say I think that this may be the case with Tanaka Fumion, but I guess that in a situation like this, where things have been together so long that they are almost or are the same system, then it really isn't very different from learning an unarmed art with weapons in its training.
As for Tanaka Fumion, eh, got me.
CU,
Chris

Moriki
9th June 2003, 16:29
Also, my first question was about his book! Has anyone bought/read it?

I`ve just ordered a copy, I`ll let you know:)

Eric Baluja
9th June 2003, 16:49
Chris,

Hey there from New York, where it currently has a nasty habit of pretending it's Seattle and raining all the bloody time.

I think the clear implication of Mr. Amdur's statements in regard to the 'fuzoku budo' of Shinto Muso-ryu is that they have lost any 'life' of their own and have been subsumed into the worldview of SMR jo. This is, I think, essentially the same idea I postulated in my 2nd post: Being soke of a 'lifeless' ryu, where none of the 'feeling' of the founders continues to exist, where the psycho-physical organization that makes the ryu unique has been lost, in short where the 'old' flow' is gone, sounds like a relatively easy job. I'll again iterate that I'm not saying this is the case with Tanaka Sensei. I'm just trying to find out from those who know.

Cheers,

Just some guy
9th June 2003, 21:26
Eric,
Sorry, I misunderstood what you meant. I thought "List of techniques" refered to haviing nothing more than a scroll (ie the kata are basically gone and the person only gets a makimono). I guess I'm getting old.

Chris.

Steve Delaney
11th June 2003, 05:44
I have just read Tanaka Fumon's new book, 'Samurai Fighting Arts' and I have to say I wasn't at all impresssed. Most of it was a rehashing of his earlier Japanese books, Koryu Kenjutsu and Koryu Kenjutsu Gairon.

There is a whole chapter on nito waza and the significance of Miyamoto Musashi. This chapter showed five of the nito kata from Niten Ichi ryu in a step by step format(One strange thing I found in the volume was that it stated the Soke of Sekiguchi Ryu Iai, Yonehara Kameo in Kumamoto is the soke of Hyoho Niten Ichi ryu Kenjutsu under Aoki Kikuo Hisakatsu Tesshin, not Imai Masayuki Sensei.)

It also teaches history from a skewed perspective. Lots of talk about how Kobudo (Or Koryu) is heavily influenced by Bushido. (Is it just me, or wasn't the term Bushido coined in the early Meiji Jidai by Nitobe Inazo when he authored his book by the same name?)

The volume also shows a considerable amount of iai kata from Koden Enshin ryu Iaisuemono Kenpo, including iai mounted on a horse. (That poor old nag was just standing there, licking it's armpits while Tanaka's students performed their kenpo techniques.)

There were also chapters on grappling and the significance it plays in swordsmanship, the sword against other weapons and a chapter on Suemono (In which it claims that suemono is different from tameshigiri and in a way, a more advanced way of training.)

For information and techniques, this might be of interest to someone who is starting up budo or a koryu, but take everything written in this book with a large grain of salt. It might flick a few people's switches, but by Gob, I wasn't impressed.

hyaku
11th June 2003, 07:26
Originally posted by Saitama Steve
There is a whole chapter on nito waza and the significance of Miyamoto Musashi. This chapter showed five of the nito kata from Niten Ichi ryu in a step by step format(One strange thing I found in the volume was that it stated the Soke of Sekiguchi Ryu Iai, Yonehara Kameo in Kumamoto is the soke of Hyoho Niten Ichi ryu Kenjutsu under Aoki Kikuo Hisakatsu Tesshin, not Imai Masayuki Sensei.)

Hello Steve Quotes a mess!

Aoki Tenshin Kikuo was Soke of both the Sekiguchi Battojutsu and Hyoho Niten Ichiryu.

Eleventh Soke Sekiguchi Battojutsu
Eighth Soke Hyohyo Niten Ichiryu

There was originaly a close connection first made as Musashi taught the Sekiguchi Ryu in Kumamoto some of his techniques.

Aoki Soke was leader of both but this connection was never intended to be permenant.

So after Aoki Soke the next Soke of Sekiguchi was Yonehara Kameo. The ninth Soke of Hyoho Niten Ichiryu was Kiyonaga Tadanao Masazane and after this Imai Soke who had studied under both the eighth and ninth.

As a matter of interest Aoki Soke got in trouble after the war for teaching Niten Ichiryu at school. After refusing to give up after being reprimanded both he and the student concerned were dismissed.

Regards Hyakutake Colin

Steve Delaney
11th June 2003, 07:53
Hyaku,

I was hoping that you were going to chime in and clarify that little point about Yonehara sensei and Imai sensei. :)

Are you saying that my quote is a mess or that I am quoting a mess of points to talk about?

I saw Yonehara Kameo demonstrate at the Taito Riverside Sports centre last April. This was one of the special showcase demonstrations before the main embu and of the three ryuha showcased, Sekiguchi ryu's demo lasted a good forty minutes. Yonehara Sensei must have demonstrated the entire syllabus of Sekiguchi ryu and after that, he demonstrated about fifteen kata from Hyoho Niten Ichi ryu.

During the demo, Yonehara said that he was the hachidai soke of Hyoho Niten Ichi ryu.

Another interesting point is that Yonehara was featured in Hiden magazine, saying the exact same thing.

Thanks

hyaku
11th June 2003, 14:05
Steve No not at all. I was not saying your quote was a mess.

Its amazing if he is the 8th Soke because Aoki sensei was the eighth too. Is this a new fashion in going back down in numbers?

Does he have the bokuto and makimono that is handed down too? I know it was left for safe keeping in Taiwan for a while when Aoki Sensei came back. But after that it has been handed on in succession.

There are few self proclaimed in Japan. One guy who hit the newspapers had opened a dojo in Fukuoka. He said that Musashi had come to him in a vision!

I will have a little chat with Sensei when we get time.

Hyakutake Colin

Steve Delaney
12th June 2003, 02:35
Er, I think I may have misheard what he stated. I have reread the passage in Tanaka's Samurai Fighting Arts and it states that he is Hachidai Soke Daiken. ?@Ƒ㌩?B


There are few self proclaimed in Japan. One guy who hit the newspapers had opened a dojo in Fukuoka. He said that Musashi had come to him in a vision!

LOL, well at least he didn't say that he was visited by a Tengu. :)Yeah there are a lot of quacks in the Koryu scene. Tanaka Fumon himself claims to be the Soke and Soke Dairi of at least 9-10 ryuha.

Very similar to a guy named Shibata Koichi, who lives in Saitama. He claims a bucket load of titles in Koryu too. He even claims to be the 7th soke of Tenjin Shinyo ryu jujutsu, eventhough the last soke (Godai Soke) died sometime in the Meiji era.

goofy
12th June 2003, 16:39
I have personally trained with Fumon Tanaka and he is a very talented martial artist and as far as I know quite legit. I believe that some of the titles he is claiming may have been given him by Shoto Tanemura as they are good friends.
Magic Man

Moriki
12th June 2003, 20:48
Hi Goofy,
Please sign your posts with your full name, it`s E-budo policy.



I believe that some of the titles he is claiming may have been given him by Shoto Tanemura as they are good friends.

Actually, some of them came from Kaminaga Shigemi Sensei who was a student of Ueno Takashi sensei.

yours

J. A. Crippen
14th June 2003, 01:59
Okay, what's the conclusion? He's not a fraud, but he's still kinda questionable with that big list of sokeships? Or he's legitimately soke of everything he claims except that maybe the various ryuha he heads are starting to look the same? Or he's a fscking genius and can really keep each and every ryuha in his head totally separate?

I looked at his new book yesterday and read the fairly self-serving statements about his sokedom. I'm unimpressed. One ryuha has been plenty for nearly everyone, even back when they mattered on the battlefield. And although certainly his words were translated from Japanese, they still sound distinctly holier-than-thou and self-important to me.

I'm not going to judge his skills or knowledge, certainly I can't be a judge of that. But I don't particularly care for the tone taken by his writing.

I guess it comes down to whether or not a person would accept him as their teacher. Impressively skilled or not, I certainly wouldn't.

budoboy
16th August 2003, 18:09
I just bought "Samurai Fighting Arts The Spirit and the Practice" by Fumon Tanaka (2003).

He claims on the dust cover to be:

Kukishin Ryu Bujutsu 19th soke

Koto Ryu representative soke

Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu representative soke

Shinden Fudo Ryu representative soke

Anybody know who this guy is and what his connection to Takamatsu-den arts is?

What the heck is a representative soke anyways?

Jeff Sherwin

George Kohler
16th August 2003, 20:51
Originally posted by budoboy
Anybody know who this guy is and what his connection to Takamatsu-den arts is?

What the heck is a representative soke anyways?

Jeff Sherwin

Hi Jeff,
Tanaka's connection to Takamatsu sensei's schools is through Kaminaga Shigemi. Apparently, he is a representative of Kaminaga in the schools above. As for Kukishin ryu, he learned this school from another person, which is not Takamatsu-den.

John Lindsey
17th August 2003, 00:48
The story I was told about Tanaka Fumon was that a few years ago he was interested in training in Takagi yoshin-ryu. He wanted to do this since Kukishin-ryu is normally associated with it and he had no such linkage. Its like peanut butter and jelly goes together :).

Well, I think he finally got to train with Kaminaga, but did not receive menkyo kaiden, but just 'shihan' status. Maybe he does have MK now.

With all these other ryuha he has recently claimed, it would be interesting to know if Kaminaga has recently increased his resume as well.

Scott Laking
17th August 2003, 09:53
Oh boy, I don't know if I should get into this but since I have teachers very close to styles mentioned in this thread, I will put in some information that I have.
First of all, we need to recognize that Sekiguchi Ryu Batto Jutsu is a part of the Jujutsu style. Thus the soke is and always has been in Wakayama. I think Aoki Tesshin was refered to as Shihandai.
Also, Aoki was from the Higo line, that was started by Shibukawa, who broke off from Sekiguchi Ryu Jujutsu, started his own jj style but was aloud to keep the sgr name with the batto jutsu. Since the art was taught in many parts of the country, there were actually several Shihan dai.
The info on Aoki sensei is correct to my knowlede. After the 2nd world war, he traveled around Japan, staying with students he trained while in (I think it was) Taiwan.
He lived with and taught a man named Kamegai, in Gifu. When leaving, he gave Kamegai sokeship of sekiguchi ryu with a request that it eventully be given back to someone from Kyushu. Coming towards the end of his years, Aoki sensei returned to Kumamoto and started teaching Yonehara sensei. I've personally read the letter that Aoki wrote Kamegai, stating that he was the head of the art but considering the promise that came with the title, it doesn't suprise me that he later gave it to Yonehara sensei. It DOES suprise me that he didn't clear things up between the two deciples before he died. So now we have two Higo lines and of course the Honke in Wakayama plus maybe some lingering lines that were branches of the honke. However they would be shihandai, not soke (Wakayama concentrated more on jj over the years so technically speaking, the Higo line has better sword technique).
I heard a year or two ago that Yonehara was suddenly claiming sokeship to Niten ich Ryu. As mentioned in this tread, sekiguchi ryu and niten were taught together in Higo han. Musashi brought niten and shibukawa brought sgr. Niten being the kenjutsu and sgr being the batto jutsu and iai.
So yes, I'm sure Yonehara studied some Niten while with Aoki sensei. We should all keep in mind that by the time aoki was teaching yonehara, he was a very old man and techniques had changed accordingly.
I had given Yonehara the benifit of the doubt on the sgr "sokeship" but after hearing about the sudden claim to Niten Ichi Sokeship, I started to suspect his person. I still don't know for sure what is true. I think Yonehara sensei is a dedicated martial artist and truely loves his art.
Tanaka Fumon:
Again as mentioned in this thread, I suspect many of the sokeships he claims to are from Papar Soke that didn't have anyone else to hand the densho to. Some of that goes on here in Japan. They either go to the highest bidder or close martial arts friend. I do know that his sokeship of Enshin Ryu is questioned. The main line is in Osaka. Fumon used to train with this group. I've seen fumon's "soke license", and it was a local town government certificate and not a true menkyo (he may have another one but I haven't seen it). I guess he could be considered soke of a Bunke or break off branch.
I've never met him personally. I've seen some of his video. I'm sure he trains hard and is a dedicated martial artist. His daughter is in line to succeed him.
Sorry to take some of the romance out of Japanese koyru.
Scott Laking

Johan
17th August 2003, 11:15
I met Tanaka Fumon long time ago when he was in Sweden. He was sort of connected with World Jujitsun Federation at that time. I trained one hour for him, we did a type of ude osae from seiza position. He also demonstrated some tameshigiri and that he did very good.

Eric Baluja
17th August 2003, 19:48
Mr. Laking,

Thank you so much for your sober perspective on the subject. In another thread somewhere on e-Budo, Ellis Amdur mentioned a Japanese term which regrettably escapes me at the moment referring to teachers with so much black ink on their business cards they're hard to read. It's sad but funny, I guess.

Thanks again.

John Lindsey
17th August 2003, 20:05
I merged these two threads together since they are both about Tanaka Fumon.

pacman2323
6th September 2003, 16:18
Greetings after reading Samurai fighting arts I noticed on the jacket
covered it spoke of the schools he studied or has sokehip of.One of them was Koga ryu and Iga ryu.Does anyone know where he learned Koga ryu from? -Chi Jonesone

BigJon
6th September 2003, 16:59
He has been discussed here quite a bit. I still don't understand what some of his titles actually mean. He lists "representitive" soke on several arts that Hatsumi Soke is head of. "...are you the soke for koga ryu?..." No, But I did sleep in a Holiday inn express last night....

Btw, how is the book?

pacman2323
6th September 2003, 22:23
He lists "representitive" soke on several arts that Hatsumi Soke is head of. "...

Representive Soke I wonder how that works out I am thinking more along the lines as 'otori'(decoy) Soke:D I did read some of the older threads seems like a well respected man so perhaps there is a legit reason for the Koga title. As for the book I thought it was nice reminded me of the Koryu book by Mol though not as in depth as Mol's book.

-Chi Jonesone

George Kohler
7th September 2003, 03:57
Originally posted by Jon G.
I still don't understand what some of his titles actually mean. He lists "representitive" soke on several arts that Hatsumi Soke is head of.

He's a representitive soke of the schools that Kaminaga Shigemi claims.

Scott Laking
29th September 2003, 16:43
I have heard from other sources that Yonehara sensei is not claiming to be soke of Niten Ichi Ryu but a "DaiKen" of the art. I didn't know that word and it was explained to me as a type of representative. I'll have to look up the word later. Anyway I guess he isn't claiming soke.

seigan
16th April 2004, 18:23
I think you all have tracked down Fumon Tanakas conections to Kukishin ryu and Takagi yoshin ryu but what about the claims on Koto and shindenfudo ryu??
How dose he explain those? Somebody that knows?

George Kohler
16th April 2004, 20:37
Originally posted by seigan
but what about the claims on Koto and shindenfudo ryu??
How dose he explain those? Somebody that knows?

Through Kaminaga Shigemi. He is a representative of Kaminaga.

Mr.Franco
16th April 2004, 21:36
Hello everyone, I don't have much to add other than I find this info. interesting. It's a change from the norm. and I find it refreshing!

Thank you

seskoad
6th August 2004, 22:20
Anyone know about Fumon Tanaka? He wrote Samurai Fighting Arts: The Spirit and the Practice and I just had quick look when I went to bookshop. It is quite interesting book. I saw that he's doing a lot of ryu. my questions are:

- Anyone know whereabout his dojo or affiliated dojo in/outside japan?maybe can direct me to particular website

- How the man like him can manage to learn and master more than 2 different ryu (I guess) in one lifetime?

- is there any budoka actually met him?

Brian Owens
7th August 2004, 10:40
If you go to the "search" function here on E-Budo, and enter "Tanaka AND Fumon" as your search criteria, you will find more than 30 threads that contain references to him.

I'll leave you to read them yourself, and come to your own conclusions.

Adreas_Varikas
20th August 2004, 14:53
Ok,
I searched and conclued that there is no internet link to him or his dojo.
Does anyone know if this information still holds?

IronFan1
20th August 2004, 15:31
I found this hope it helps...
http://www.renshin.com/Soke/Soke.html

Andrew S
22nd March 2006, 19:56
I have just borrowed from my local library a book in English, Samurai Fighting Arts, by Fumon Tanaka. Although the author claims a lot of ranks and titles, a number of techniques demonstrated in his book are from well-known Ryu and by well-known instructors of those Ryu, rather than the author himself.
He claims these titles and ranks:

Modern kendo,fourth dan
Modernbojutsu,fifth dan
Jujutsu(kumiuchihyohoyawara-no-jutsu),seventh dan
Kyoshi battojutsu,seventhdan
Kyoshi iai suemonogirikenpo,seventh dan
Hanshi kobudo,eighth dan

Traditional budo Hanshi titles and licenses held by the author:

1.Koden Enshin Ryu kumiuchi kenden 11th soke
2.Kukishin Ryu bujutsu 19th soke
3.Honmon Enshin Ryu iai suemonogiri kenpo 4th soke
4.Tenshin Hyoho Soden Kukamishin Ryu 19th soke
5.Koto Ryu representative soke
6.Shindo Tenshin Ryu toritejutsu representative soke
7.Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu jutsu representative soke
8.Asayamaichiden Ryu taijutsu representative soke
9.Shinden Fudo Ryu representative soke
10.Bokuden Ryu jujutsu koshinomawari representative soke
11.Koga Ryu ninjutsu
12.Iga Ryu ninpo
13.A one-time director of Dainihon-Butokukai
14.A standing adviser of Zennihon-Budo-Sogorenmei
President of Nihonkoden-Fushimusokai

Is a representative soke one with no formal training in that art, but has been granted the responsibility of overseeing its development?
I'm also curious about the Koga Ryu connection here, as a number of threads on this site say Koga Ryu no longer exists.

Any input would be appreciated.

George Kohler
22nd March 2006, 20:18
I merged your thread with another Tanaka Fumon thread.

Dean Whittle
16th May 2006, 03:35
Just in case nobody has seen this....

http://www.croqaudile.com/?article_id=14030

With respect

Steve Delaney
16th May 2006, 04:13
Just in case nobody has seen this....

http://www.croqaudile.com/?article_id=14030

With respect

I remember watching this on TV.

Midori Tanaka doesn't even pull the yumi back to full flexion.

Finny
16th May 2006, 05:40
Just in case nobody has seen this....

http://www.croqaudile.com/?article_id=14030

With respect


I remember watching this on TV.

Midori Tanaka doesn't even pull the yumi back to full flexion.

LMAO - she barely even draws it back to her left elbow - you can see some of the arrows loop so much that they barely make it to Master Tanaka...

hyaku
16th May 2006, 20:52
I would myself question the Niten Ichiryu connection. With many more questionable things maybe this should go there.

Jock Armstrong
16th May 2006, 23:57
On that same show [I saw it in it's entirety- thank God for friends with cable], I watched some of the worst tamaeshigiri I'd ever seen. Apparently Mr Tanaka and some of his "students" turned up at a temple matsuri in medieval armour and participated in the proceedings. They knocked over their cutting stands, struck targets without cutting them and generally gave the impression of having a level of incompetence rarely seen in public. There was one old gent however, in keiko gi and hakama who gave a very creditable performance but I suspect that he wasn't actually part of Mr Tanaka's group- he was just at the temple doing his thing and wound up on film. It seems that Mr Tanaka has a lot of money [he can afford expensive toys- the armour and swords he owns must be worth a fortune] but I have some doubts as to the veracity of some of his claims

sven beulke
17th May 2006, 12:03
Hi All!
I have a copie of Mr.Tanakas Book(Samurai Fighting Arts) and its not bad , its really bad :rolleyes: . I am disturbed by the tons of poser pics inside. Mr. Tanaka seems to have a lot of mirrors at home( i always think of budo as a way to get rid of ones ego!). The text ist poor and i had a bad neck from constant headshaking. For example he states that ryu who practice Iai without a tanto or wakizashi in the obi lost there connection to bushido. Judging the bibliography in the book Mr. Tanakas connection to bushido is Inazo Nitobe :rolleyes: ! His primary souce for the early history of japan seems to be the Nihongi and the Kojiki resulting a historical reception that is old school itself. My personnel favorite is a picture of Mr- Tanaka performing Enshin-Ryu Torii no kamae in front of a Waterfall. The text under the picture was something like(a have the copy not at hand) "In the old days samurai used to perfom torii in front of waterfalls". Anyone has seen the Enshin-Ryu version of Torii? I doubt there is more use for this kamae than performing it in front of waterfalls. The back of the sword is resting between thumb and the back of the left hand. The palm is facing the enemy. I doubt its possible to block like this with much control and you easily loose yor fingers.
Greetings

Steve Delaney
17th May 2006, 12:08
I enjoyed the mounted swordsmanship though, you could see the manure accumulate underneath the horse with each sequential picture! :D

ScottUK
18th May 2006, 14:51
I agree that some of the claims made by Mr Fumon Tanaka can be a little strange, although I have to say that I would not want to be on the receiving end of those arrows, the other thing that I would like to say is that do you really think his own daughter is going to fire arrows at full speed at her own father!!!Then get someone else to do it. Is all arrow-cutting at this speed? It reminds me of the 80's ninjer movies where Sho Kosugi would catch arrows in his hands...


lets face it, he is a soke and being Japanese hes got more of a cultural link to the arts.It's just a title. It doesn't make him a good (or bad) MA-ist, but I was less than impressed with the kenjutsu I saw on MB&KAM... :rolleyes:

Hurtzdontit
19th May 2006, 13:22
Thanks for the reply Scott but it dosent really anser the question,
my question was.
Why does he seem to have this kind of reputation?
Thanks
Andrew Timms

Eric Baluja
19th May 2006, 14:55
Thanks for the reply Scott but it dosent really anser the question,
my question was.
Why does he seem to have this kind of reputation?
Thanks
Andrew Timms

More can be found in this (http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20975&page=4&pp=15&highlight=fumon+business+card) thread from 2003, but here's the problem in a nutshell:


Tanaka Fumon: Again as mentioned in this thread, I suspect many of the sokeships he claims to are from Papar Soke that didn't have anyone else to hand the densho to. Some of that goes on here in Japan. They either go to the highest bidder or close martial arts friend. I do know that his sokeship of Enshin Ryu is questioned. The main line is in Osaka. Fumon used to train with this group. I've seen fumon's "soke license", and it was a local town government certificate and not a true menkyo (he may have another one but I haven't seen it). I guess he could be considered soke of a Bunke or break off branch. - Scott Laking I also remember Ellis Amdur saying that this kind of individual is sometimes referred to as a "kuro meishi" (I think; sorry if I got the Japanese wrong) -- possessing a business card so full of text listing his many, many soke-ships that the card is basically black. Unfortunately, that thread discussing Tanaka Fumon seems to have been pre-crash; I found a link for it but the page couldn't be found.

Gary Arthur
29th May 2006, 06:39
I trained with Fumon Tanaka over a period of approx 5 days and to me he seemed like a very competant individual in the ryu ha he teaches. At the time he was teaching Eishin Ryu, and Kukishinden Ryu Bojutsu, and coming from a Ninpo background i found this Bojutsu very similar, but he did demonstrate many excelent techniques that I have not seen since.

He was also a very approachable gentleman and I remember sitting at a table with him asking him questions and he sat smoking a cigarette, whilst one of his Japanese students helped translate for me.

I was also training at the seminar with a chap from the Bujinkan and when Mr Tanaka knew we were training in Ninpo under Hatsumi Sensei and Tanemura Sensei he made comment, although not in any negative way, and seemed to spend a lot of time teaching us after that.

He also showed a few techniques on me and I have no doubt that he can really use this stuff.

Now at the time he mentoned that he was good friends with Tanemura, and this was before Mr Tanaka was claiming Shinden Fudo Ryu etc. I think posibly what happened that Mr Tanaka and Mr Tanemura being friends probably exhanged some teachings through meeting and training together.

Whether Tanaka is a Soke of these schools, i.e Shinden Fudo Ryu, is another matter. I have heard that he is simply a representative.

Gary Arthur

gcarson
26th October 2007, 11:56
Just a quick bit to revive this thread about arrow cutting and such.

Having watched the recent special on Nova, about sword making etc, I was rather impressed with the cutting display on the show. He clearly cut the arrow in two and it was easy to see that both pieces smacked into his chest afterward with enough force that eating it pointy-end first would have been unpleasant.

In regards to the lineage argument I have no comment.....my political-radiation-geiger counter is broken but I am sure I have too many rads anyhow.

Earl Hartman
28th October 2007, 02:12
I saw that arrow cutting demonstration also.

The bow was obviously nothing more than a toy, and Ms. Tanaka obviously had not the faintest idea about how to use it proplery. Consequently, the arrow speed was so low that even if the arrow had struck him squarely in the chest it would have probably not have injured him severely. Unpleasant? Certainly. Fatal? I highly doubt it.

Also, the shot of the arrows punching about an inch or so through the practically paper-thin board held by the student and then just hanging there was simply laughable. Modern kyudo bows are not particularly strong (the average is only about 35-40 pounds for men, less for women), but an arrow fired properly from even a relatively weak bow would have gone through that board like it wasn't even there and kept on going like the Energizer Bunny. I have seen footage of high school students shooting arrows clean through metal buckets full of water. The arrows barely even slow down.

It is true that Tanaka cut the arrow cleanly. I'll give him that. But to present that as an example of real arrow-cutting was really an insult to the intelligence of the viewer.

And if the arrow is traveling that slowly, why bother to cut it? Just step out of the way.

On Tanaka's other claims I have no comment.

cup
14th February 2008, 08:49
I tried to surf the net trying to answer this interesting question of his formal training in Takagi Ryu jujutsu but found nothing, he does talk as if he mastered it so I would have expected to find at least some biographical mention but couldn't.



___
http://www.myswordsclub.com/

George Kohler
14th February 2008, 12:19
I tried to surf the net trying to answer this interesting question of his formal training in Takagi Ryu jujutsu but found nothing, he does talk as if he mastered it so I would have expected to find at least some biographical mention but couldn't.


As far as I know, his formal training in Takagi-ryu is from Kaminaga Shigemi. who was a student of Ueno Takashi.