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John Lindsey
16th August 2003, 20:45
I have a few comments and observations about adapting martial arts to wheelchair bound students. While I salute their drive and intestinal fortitude to learn martial arts, I often grimace at what they are being taught. To put it bluntly, most of what I have seen will not work in a real fight. I feel that it is just too easy to out maneuver a wheel-chaired opponent.

One strategy to defeat a wheelchair is to circle closely, attempting to gain control of the rear of the chair and dump the person to the ground.

It seems to me that it is difficult to turn the wheelchair to keep up with the attacker, and even more so if they are punching at you and you have to block. Putting distance between you and the attacker is key, but really how fast can this be done?

So, are martial art teachers doing a disservice to their handicapped students by “porting” over standard techniques such as “high block, reverse punch” as seen in karate?

I would like to hear from everyone who has trained with wheelchairs in regards to what works and what does not. Do you teach them how to fight from the ground?

How can wheelchairs be modified for fighting?

Take a look at these techniques and let me know what you think. Some may work, some may not:

http://www.fightingarts.com/content02/wheelchair_tech_1.shtml

mews
16th August 2003, 22:51
I saw an aikido trained woman from europe (Dutch?) who was quite nasty. however, she grappled, pinned and when necessary wasn't afraid to (and was capable of) getting out of the chair to do bad things to her attacker on the floor.

i would think it would depend on the level of commitment of the attacker, too - if you are picking on people in wheelchairs you are probably low-life cowardly common scum, and i would bet any sort of organized resistance would send a good percentage of said scum off to try their luck with an easier target - like an elderly, arthritic pekenese with one eye and two fangs left.

mew

Mitch Saret
17th August 2003, 05:21
It's amazing, many instructors think that they just need to teach upper body stuff, not much differently than they do a fully functional student, and viola!, they have wheelchair defense!

When I found out my nephew was going to be pretty much wheelchair bound, I started to work on some things. BTW, he was born with spina bifida. Now while I don't claim to be an authority, or that it's even a complete "system," or that's it's even grouped that way. I may do that someday. What I have done is address many of the concerns that Mr. Lindsey has articulated, the limitations of the chair, and of the person in the chair.

Here are a few of the concepts I have come up with: First, the arms of the chair should be easily removable, no extra twisting or what have you, just come straight up. Now we can use the arm like a tonfa, baton, stick, whatever. The basics of weapon usage and retention apply. For strikes we have to look at the vulnerable areas on all sides of the body, at what would be eye level to someone in a chair. i.e., solar plexus, kidneys, floating rib, coxcyc, groin, etc.

Next, the handle of the brakes should be extended a bit, to make them easier to lock down. When dealing with a clothing or similar grab one of the responses is a wrist lock or arm bar. Much is accomplished with tai sabaki, body movement , using the whole body against the joint. Obviously someone in a chair cannot do the twisting movement of the body. Locking down one wheel and spinning the other can accomplish the same thing, adding the leverage of the chair to your manuever.

There are some others, but those are the two main ones. And because I don't want to ramble on I hope I have done them justice. It boils down to anythign else in the arts...adapt what you do to fit what you have. I will be glad to explore this further with anyone.

John Lindsey
17th August 2003, 06:06
Interesting comments so far.

In regards to wrist locks, etc, I think the center of gravity of the lock will be lower than normal with some lost of leverage. A good fighter will simply jump up and in/down onto the defender and strike with the other hand.

Lets also think about the other side of this situation. Should we know how to fight a wheelchair bound opponent? Something to think about.

Martyn van Halm
17th August 2003, 13:11
Originally posted by mews
I saw an aikido trained woman from europe (Dutch?) who was quite nasty. however, she grappled, pinned and when necessary wasn't afraid to (and was capable of) getting out of the chair to do bad things to her attacker on the floor.
I guess the person you saw is the same woman I trained with at the AikiDojo Amsterdam. She is trained by Erik Louw and is now instructor - in Rotterdam, I believe.

MarkF
17th August 2003, 13:16
Try this thread:

http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15677


Mark

Mitch Saret
18th August 2003, 20:28
John,
Of course there are some problems. And in this forum we may be able to work some out. I will say that when I do show a joint lock, using the chair to substitute for body movement, the idea is to turn away from the attacker as well as moving back slightly. This would put the attacker bent over with the other arm on the side of his body opposite the defender. This, of course, is if things work out well!

I don't have all the answers. I am working on some that I think will be effective, as my now almost 10 year old nephew deals with more a-holes as he grows up.

I appreciate the topic and welcome any and all advice in regards to the subject.

As far as defending against a wheelchair bound attacker? I don't think that's really necessary. The closest I came to a situation like that was in Chicago. An apparently chairbound, homeless vet didn't like the fact that I had no cash on me except some change. When I offered that to him with my apologies,he got po'd at me, started calling me names, and proceeded to bump his chair into my car. I was at a stop light at the time. He was finally far enough away I could speed away, and when I looked in the rear view mirror, I saw him standing there shaking his fist at me! :smash:

FastEd
18th August 2003, 21:22
For those who use wheelchairs every day there are quite a few modern styles out on the market. Unlike the 50's steel boat anchors that you see in hospitals, modern ones are made out of Al, Ti or other alloy, they are very light and nimble. Most don't have side bars, or back handles.

Styles (http://www.quickie-wheelchairs.com/)

Check out this site for some common examples.

Some people train for competitve wheelchair racing as well, so you can develope some pretty good speed with these things. Can you out wheel a thug? Maybe if he is drunk, or not in shape to run after you. More then likely you would have trouble moving across uneven sidewalks or other terrain.

But simply practicing movement in a chair is definitly the first priority in developing SD skills for the wheelchair bound. Become comfortable and skilled in the use of the tool in all types of terrian you will come in contact with and know it limits. After that you can think about dealing with attackers.

Things I would consider:

1. Getting away, learn to move fast and corner in the chair.
2. Falling out of and getting back on the chair.
3. Punching, wrist locks..etc. (Could'nt hurt, most wheel chair users will have above average strength in the arms/shoulders, but not something to base the SD option on. Besides every disability is different, so some will not have the range of motion to do certian things.)
4. Using the chair as a weapon..not very realistic..you want to get away not entangle yourself with the jerk.
5. The best option "I think" is to have a short stick or cane (i.e. think single stick or tanjo) accessable on the chair, something you can use to strike and/or block with one hand, while the other hand controls the chair. To understand what you can do from the chair you can also look at wheelchair fencing/kendo both of which are done I believe.

FastEd
28th August 2003, 18:21
I have been thinking about this thread, and I am interested in hearing peoples opinions on a few questions I have. I stated above that I thought a wooden weapon of some sort would be a good idea for wheelchair bound individuals. My first question is, do you agree? And if so, how long and/or what configuration should that weapon be?

Mitch Saret
28th August 2003, 21:29
I think it's a possibility. I would have to say the my choice would be an escrima/kali stick. Easy enough to carry and even conceal. I I am still, however, an advocate of being able to use what is at hand on the chair itself. If you pull out a weapon it may not faze an attacker. But imagine the surprise on an attacker's face when all of a sudden the leg rest is whiped up into his groin, or some similar scenario. To respond to your earlier point, Ed, of course you don't want to get tangled up with some idiot, but pulling a weapon does the same thing, so we are already determining that escape is not going to happen. As always, with our martial arts training we are training for what we do if we cannot escape. Escape, running, or wheeling, away, evasion, these are always the first choice. When John first brought up the thread I assumed he was reffering to when their is no option other than to fight back.

I am taking a larger interest in this subject in recent years because of my nephew as stated earlier, but also because of myself. As has been mentioned elsewhere, I have been diagnosed with Multiple Sclerosis. While I can still teach my classes, I cannot participate as fully as I would like to. When I used to do the calesthenics with 3 classes 4 days a week, I know don't do any and do one or two tai chi classes per week. My neurologist does not feel I will be wheelchair bound, and if I do go that far it won't be for a long time, when age may put me there anyway. There are some new things going on with me, MS wise, that make me feel as though a cane is much closer than I would like to think.

I mention all of this to clarify that I have an open mind in regard to wheelchair self defense. I am personally trying to prepare myself for that eventuality. MS can change at anytime. Any and all ideas, thoeries, techniques are welcomed and will be tried out and experimented with, albeit on a basic chair for now.

John Lindsey
28th August 2003, 21:58
One thing to keep in mind is that you have to change the attitude of the attacker, who thinks his victim in the chair will be an easy target. I am not sure if a stick would do that. The attacker has a verticle advantage and thus little fear of a head strike, etc.

In Texas, we can carry a pistol if you have a license. That would be my first choice if I was in a wheelchair.

What about tear gas sprays?

gendzwil
28th August 2003, 22:38
The attacker has a verticle advantage and thus little fear of a head strike, etc.
That would have to be a pretty short stick if a wheelchair-bound person didn't have a head shot.

And now I'm drawing a blank on that kendoka from Hawaii with no legs - he takes out people with head shots pretty routinely, and he's on the ground, not in a wheelchair.

John Lindsey
28th August 2003, 23:44
Neil, I was talking about a short, escrima stick as suggested by another member. I don't think a person in a wheelchair would carry around a shinai or a jo :).

gendzwil
28th August 2003, 23:55
Yeah, but if the attacker is close enough to hit with his hands, the wheelchair dude has plenty of range with an escrima stick to hit the head. The stick's adding 2 feet of range there.

FastEd
29th August 2003, 22:10
Originally posted by Mitch Saret
I think it's a possibility. I would have to say the my choice would be an escrima/kali stick. Easy enough to carry and even conceal. I I am still, however, an advocate of being able to use what is at hand on the chair itself. If you pull out a weapon it may not faze an attacker. But imagine the surprise on an attacker's face when all of a sudden the leg rest is whiped up into his groin, or some similar scenario. To respond to your earlier point, Ed, of course you don't want to get tangled up with some idiot, but pulling a weapon does the same thing, so we are already determining that escape is not going to happen.


I'm not enamoured with the use of the chair itself as a weapon. Most custom ones don't have detachable foot rests, and even if they do, they are rather short maybe a foot long, with a heavy foot plate at the base...not something I think I could use with as much effect as a cane. In my thinking the key is to keep the attacker at bay, and the longer the weapon you can use to do this the better.

The gun, while highly effective, is not an option for many people owing to legal restrictions. And the effectivness of tear gas sprays is not universal, or legal in some places. The cane however is innocuous, but can be readied for use quickly and can deliver alot of damage. I don't think hitting the head is a problem at all issue if you add the extension of the arm and the length of the cane/escrima stick together. Plus the opponent will be coming to you so he will be closing the range anyway. Your point about scareing the attacker is a good one though, maybe a cane with an ugly mace head on it would do the job???

My own thinking is a stick of walking cane length or more, which is easily manipulated in one hand. The handle end should be flared, weighted and maybe pointed as well to deliver thrusts. I like the 19th century English walking cane designed as much for style as for gentlemenly defence.

MarkF
30th August 2003, 09:15
Originally posted by John Lindsey
One thing to keep in mind is that you have to change the attitude of the attacker, who thinks his victim in the chair will be an easy target. I am not sure if a stick would do that. The attacker has a verticle advantage and thus little fear of a head strike, etc.

In Texas, we can carry a pistol if you have a license. That would be my first choice if I was in a wheelchair.

What about tear gas sprays?


Sprays also require accuracy so lots of practice is going to go into them. People today are in chairs for all sorts of reasons, some not because they can't walk or are paralyzed, but because they can't walk for longer distances (say one hundred feet or so). Each person has to tailor his defense according to his disability or ability. In Mitch's case, it may be for ease of mobility but not because he lacks all use of his legs or body, upper and lower, but control may be an issue at some time, as he says when he mentioned having to use a cane or similar device to aid him in getting around.

In New Mexico, guns are a real choice because anyone can own one. Carrying has never been the problem, but now they have added a CCW permit with minimal training. They have always been legal to carry on your person, in your car (glove box), just not concealed. Now that is an option, too.

But Mitch makes a good point concerning the type of SD, and at what level. Obviously, it is like any other SD, the situation has already escalated to a degree when you have only one way out, to make contact or get hurt. So what is best at that point? I think if you can make that a given with abled persons, you have to make it a given with the disabled one.

John's suggestions concerning sprays or a gun make sense, but so do they with abled people. To which level do you really want to take a self-defense course? I'm also thinking this isn't really a dojo-inspired thread but one strictly for self-defense, something more specialized. There is a range to work with, but what is it?

But, for the moment, let's say you have a student who wants/needs to learn a form of grappling to include a stick (a jo perhaps, as well?). When teaching self-defense to a wheelchair bound person, how do you train the uke who works with the wheelchair bound? Most with decent or above average upperbody strength can learn to grapple/throw a person (see thread I posted above). It could mostly be taking place over the top of the chair so how is that taught? And in front of the person? Something which doesn't look like a weapon would seem to be almost an absolute. Anyway, in training someone, I think one goes with the other (wheel chair tori with uke trained specialty). If you are talking guns or similar weapons (knives), then it has escalated well-above ordinary, unarmed fighting/self-defense. Is it fair to assume a disabled person should carry a concealed weapon *because* he is in a chair? What about someone with MS on a bad day? Is that actually a safe thing to do?

Types of chairs also make sense and if a disabled and chairbound person is taking this seriously then a change (in type of chair) may be in order when out and about. Weight, position of the legs (in people with no feeling in them), whether or not hand rails and cusions for arms and upper body would seem to be a logical step. Most all chairs with those who are only limited from the waist down have removable arm rests. This is a weapon too, or it can be.

I've seen wheelchair bound judoka who make the average abled person look bad, and I've seen them determined, but unable to get to a level where it would do any good in a SD situation or at a competitive one, there are some for whom nothing works so this is going to be a very specialized lesson plan, and each one is going to be different, not only from the average person, but also different from disabled to disabled and limits of the disability.

There are some jerks who will attack a person who can't fight back, and that is human nature, though a really bad example if showing them to those of the first Vulcan ship to land here.;)

No one type of training is going to fit all chairbound so my question would be: Is there a general plan for learning basics which, at the very least, can be tailored to the one type in a chair with only waist down paralyzation that will be logical and relatively easy to teach and learn? Perhaps it should be even more generalized then that? Will it be to the same extent as with most abled persons?

From a little experience in seeing this personally, I can say it worked well with those I saw, but when someone throws in the monkey wrench, it would seem we need to start over again. With the exception of personal weapons, anything else would be, or should be, an entirely different manner of teaching. The blind are easy and make most sighted people look, well, blind. The deaf as well, but same thing as with the blind (though deafness is probably the worst of the two concerning the subject).

As usual, this post will self-destruct. I don't know when, but it will.


Mark

Mitch Saret
30th August 2003, 19:49
Actually, Mark, I am not at the cane yet, but there are days when I can tell it will happen one day...it could be 10 years away. And I apologize Ed, when I said leg rest I meant arm rest...must have been an MS typing day!:smash: But still, in some circumstances, even the leg rest could possibly be used. Firearms are not available to everyone in every state, so that limits that as an option. Although with proper training a gun would be my first choice.

Sprays and the like are too often dependent on environmental factors...would you use pepper spray if it were going to blow back in your face? Granted, we could attempt a repositioning sequence, but we have limited time if we are at this stage, in addition to limited mobility. The longer weapons mentioned, jo, shinai, are impractical for space considerations. A cane, maybe, as in the scenario Mark mentioned, can walk but only for short distances. Somehow, in my mind, it just doesn't look proper to have a cane with a wheelchair...kind of like the brail at the drive up teller. :laugh:

Also mentioned has been head strikes. In my mind these would not necessarily be the first attack. If a stick of some time is the weapon of choice, we have the solar plexus, groin, quadricep, knee, among the targets well within range. Imagine a thrust to the solar plexus, bending the attacker over, then follow with your choice of head targets.

And, getting back to Ed, most chairs I have seen .dohave detachable foot rests. And for an average adult should be about 18 inches long, an average knee to bottom of foot length. They are just not easily detachable while your leg is in it. One caveat, though, I am referring to chairs that are used by people who need them for everyday use, not the mass produced things used for patient transport in a hospital

FastEd
30th August 2003, 20:58
If we are serious about outlining a practical approach to wheelchair self defence, maybe we should each draft a course outline? We can critique each others and pick out useful things. I doubt we will come to any consensus but having the information "out and about" in a constructive format on E-budo might be interesting and innovative?

StanLee
1st September 2003, 13:30
I don't want to be sounding stupid with this comment, in a recent japanese movie called Aiki, a young man is paralysed waist down after a motorbike accident. Before the accident he was a promising boxer.

After coming to terms of the accident he looks for a MA. An aikijutsu sensei takes it on himself to train him. Although this is still a movie, it touches on a lot of the comments made here i.e. who would want to attack a wheelchair bound person and what techniques to use etc.

Right at the end of the movie, it shows a real life example of a paraplegic aikijutsu (aikido?) person excuting techniques.

When I watched this bit, it really brought a tear to my eyes. Unfortunately, not everyone else in the cinema was impressed with the techniques shown and even laughed inappropriately (the audience were mainly poxy art/film student types).

The film also had snippits of tameshigiri and a demonstration of koryu techniques performed in full armour (yori?).

I would have taken them all on!:mad:

MarkF
2nd September 2003, 05:59
Hi, Stan,
I posted a link to a discussion/review of this film early in this thread, but here it is again.

http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15677

Neil Yamamoto originally posted a description of the film, and your description of it is similar. It was posted in Dec. 2002. The wheelchair bound man, it turns out, is well-repected in the DR AJJ community and in others. I haven't seen it, but it is on my "to-do" list (which generally means absolutely nothing except to make a mental note).

The real life person has a long history in DR aikijujutsu, so while it may be "just" a movie, it does reflect this man's life and is the reason for the footage of him in the movie.

He is an honest to goodness (off the top of my head DR Okamoto-ha [Kodokai] aikijujutsu practitioner.

Read the discussion, bump it back to the top, and add your comments. Not many have seen it.


Mark

MarkF
2nd September 2003, 06:09
...if you are picking on people in wheelchairs you are probably low-life cowardly common scum...

There are some in wheel chairs who run all types of scams because they are in wheel chairs, or are apparently "disabled" or have a child being "treated" for leukemia and other forms of cancer with chemotherapy, radiation, etc., which turn out to be fraudulent. You know the drill: collect and move on.

Don't blindly give anything to anyone who doesn't have the proper paperwork, at the very least. This kind of scam seems to pop-up three or four times a year. Imagine that the majority of people have good hearts and don't feel asking questions is good etiquette because the parent or a bank is collecting money on his/her behalf.

They will take advantage of everything, as suckers are more plentiful than one wants to believe.


Mark

Edit in: How many requests for donations to you receive in the form of a non-profit charity run as a lottery? Usually, less than twenty per cent of monies collected from these charities ever see the light of day for those for whom it is being collected.

StanLee
2nd September 2003, 08:57
Thanks for posting the link Mark. Didn't know that it had existed.
Will drag the post back out again for all to view.

Incidently, there was a programme on UK tv a while back on disabled crooks and this one guy who was wheelchair bound (and had no legs) found it extremely useful to climb into cars with it's windows opened to steal things.

Mitch Saret
3rd September 2003, 20:08
I like that thought, Ed, about each of us with an interest to come up with a basic curriculum and post it. We could then have a discussion as to why certain things were included, different methods for achieving the goals, drills etc.

I am going to work on mine.

giles
12th September 2003, 15:15
No answers to this, but another reference point.

I used to teach Hakko Ryu jujutsu to a 20 year old who was in a wheel chair after a motorbike accident. The syllabus adapts very well - half of it is taught from kneeling (seiza) anyway.

Best thing it taught me was to be adaptable. One eveneing we were sparring, I used a foot sweep against the foot plates of his chair, spun him round and attacked from behind. OK, so what? Next time I tried that, he grabbed both wheels and my instep collided with a solid metal foot plate. Ouch.

How effective a martial art is for self defence in a wheel chair is one thing. How much a wheel chair makes you thinkabout your assumptions is another.

Giles Chamberlin

MarkF
13th September 2003, 08:15
Best thing it taught me was to be adaptable. One eveneing we were sparring, I used a foot sweep against the foot plates of his chair, spun him round and attacked from behind. OK, so what? Next time I tried that, he grabbed both wheels and my instep collided with a solid metal foot plate. Ouch.


Yes, it usually only works once with a person knowledgable about the weapons at his disposal, then he adapts quickly for next time and there is always a next time. It is too bad the abled person doesn't catch on quite as quickly. People can be very surprising.

Teaching the disabled is a practice in frustration (the teacher's), as no two are alike as they all have different abilities. It is very similar to the average abled person, with about a pound extra of engenuity. I don't know if plans work or not as the best technique works when the wheelchair bound find for themselves the basics they can use. Once that is perceived, in particular when the chair becomes a weapon itself, then you can plan out what will be effective for that individual, pointing out that, as a simple proposition is that they are sitting on a weapon. An example is one who can move their entire body a certain amount compared to a paraplegic who has great upper strength but nothing below that except the chair. Both are chair bound but you will center on different aspects of what they can learn to do and what they cannot.

Actually, it isn't that much different from anybody else, but it is a new experience. The chair as a weapon has probably all ready occured to the person tethered to it.


Mark

n2shotokai
15th September 2003, 18:40
I have trained with a couple of students with crutches, which are used somewhat like tonfa. They performs katas with modified moves for their limitations.

I am aware of a school in Glendora, California that teaches Goju Ryu and Kobudo. One of the classes is all wheelchair bound. Although I am uncertain of the financial situation, it appears most of this is done as community service. These people have purpose and pride. The most senior student has a very effective counter for attacks from the rear while she is confined to her wheelchair. Her dog sits on a platform just behind. Just try and grab the back of her chair! Small dog has big teeth!

Steve Beale

Blackwood
15th March 2004, 15:26
Was looking through the threads looking for an appropriate place to post something I got today and found this thread. Some good thoughts, ideas and suggestions here! Would like to see more info as people put it together, I don't want to limit myself!

An acquaintance is wheelchair bound. Tim's Page (http://www.wwnet.net/~kc8hr/karate.html) I remember him being fairly skilled with the bo.