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Jody Holeton
9th June 2000, 03:23
Dear all judoka,


I've read a little about Saigo Shiro, can anyone tell me more about this famous judoka and his power throws?

Thanks any help would be appreciated--Jody Holeton

MarkF
9th June 2000, 09:12
Toby,
You want to know how to do Yama Arashi correctly?? So do I, but someone is going to have to find out what it was. No one really knows, only that it was called Yama Arashi, or Mountain Storm. The general consensus is probably hanegoshi (hip spring) but no one can say for sure. I have heard it was seoi nage, seoi otoshi, and some have said that it might even has been an aiki technique considering he was a long time student of Takeda Sokaku. Being small, my throws tended to be quick, and sometimes I could really launch a guy, and with a form of seoinage (ippon seoi nage), but Yama Arashi? If you find it, bottle it, for people will come far and wide if you do. He did wait for his opportunity and did get thrown, but managed to land on his hands and knees, or so the story goes. Considering your height, I would work on uchi mata, hane goshi and harai goshi (these come from the kito ryu school). All take very good balance, and if you don't nail it and quickly, you might end up on your keester, from a reverse. Taking a leg that far off the ground without knowing a counter to a counter, or at least how to defend it, might be problematic, but that is what I would do. Also, major/minor reaping throws would be good, especially from the left side. If you catch someone who has failed at a shoulder throw, than immediately going for o soto gari is a good bet. That may be your Mountain Storm.

BTW: If you haven't all ready, get a copy of the Kurosawa film (his first), Sanshiro Sugata (in English it was reeased as The judo Saga). It is said to be about Saigo, and there is a novel by the same name on which the film was based. It wasmade in 1943 so considering the censorship at that time, it is a good film. I got my copy through Tower records on the net, and the sound is horrible, and it lost something in the transition to video tape. I've seen it on the large screen in J-town in Los Angeles. In the police department tournament (only one match in the movie), they leave you guessing as to which throw, although his leg definitely leaves the ground. Also made clear, if not how, Sugata's opponent ends up across the mat from one end to the other: several times. There is also a rematch "Jujutsu rules" out in the country side (in this one, jujutsu rules means strangling is allowed). I won't give up the ending, though. You will also find the subtitles amusing as well.


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Mark F. Feigenbaum

[This message has been edited by MarkF (edited 06-09-2000).]

Jody Holeton
9th June 2000, 16:58
The names Jody, I'm not Toby Threadgill!
My friends call me Jo, Jody or Umasan, and I dont recall any Mark Feigenbaum (you ant no Mark Fitzgerald).

Thanks for the advice I'll ask some of the local shihan around here and see if I can get some real time feedback--Jody

MarkF
9th June 2000, 17:32
Jody,
I am so sorry for such a blatant mistake. I ask your forgiveness. Not thinking things through is a bad habit and one which becomes more difficult as time goes by. But I swear to you that I was responding to Jody Holeton and not Toby Threadgill. I could say that I received an email from Toby shortly before my response, but that is just an excuse.

Now, as to your anger in this mixup, go ahead and ask. No one knows what that throw was unless they were there. BTW: There are no "shihans" in judo. I thought you would have been in it long enough to know that. Good luck. Geesh, you try to answer a question and this is what you offer in return? Just who do you think you are, anyway? Spoiled brat comes to mind.

Sign me hosed and
Shihan master, holiest of holy grand poobah and Osensei of Osensei. Who the hell is Mark Fitzgerald???

Mark F.

Bob Steinkraus
9th June 2000, 19:00
FWIW -

The demonstrations I have seen of yama-arashi make it look like ashi-guruma off an eri-seoinage grip. Thus, for a right hand throw, the left hand grips uke's right sleeve, and tori's right hand grips uke's right lapel. Then take the standard half step across with your left foot and start uke travelling in the opposite direction (lean away to your left annd throw your weight into it), spin, and whip your right leg around and in front of uke. The hands drive uke up and over his right foot, and the leg sweeps uke's legs back and away. Spin uke over. Boom.

The deeper the leg is inserted, the more it looks like harai-goshi. Neal Adams, in his work 'Grips' in the Ippon Masterclass series, describes tori's right leg as planting as uke goes over, making it somewhat like tai-otoshi. But he loved tai-otoshi off the eri-seoinage grip, so this may be a personal variation.

As has been said by others, nobody really knows what the technique was, although if you are expecting some magic throw that works every time but people just forgot how to do, not likely.

Incidentally, Mr.Feigenbaum, you posted that harai-goshi came from kito-ryu jujutsu. I had heard the story that Kano invented harai-goshi to throw people who tried to slip off his hip when he went after them with uke-goshi, which was Kano's favorite technique. Do you know differently? Or was that just a dojo story, or maybe a case of parallel development?

My $.02 worth.

Regards,
Bob Steinkraus
(Not a shihan either, just a lousy shodan)

kenkyusha
9th June 2000, 19:30
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bob Steinkraus:
[snip]

Incidentally, Mr.Feigenbaum, you posted that harai-goshi came from kito-ryu jujutsu. I had heard the story that Kano invented harai-goshi to throw people who tried to slip off his hip when he went after them with uke-goshi, which was Kano's favorite technique. Do you know differently? Or was that just a dojo story, or maybe a case of parallel development?
[snip]
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am not a Judo guy, but I had always heard that it was Uchi-mata that Kano developed to prevent the slippery young players from countering his Uki-goshi...

Be well,
Jigme


------------------
Jigme Chobang
Kenkyusha@bigfoot.com

Aaron Fields
9th June 2000, 19:41
Jody,
Over the years I have seen 3 seperate examples of yama arashi. Not one of the three was the same as any of the others and each person said that their yama arashi was the "real" one. Each throw was nice, but the historic yama arashi, who knows.

I place my tounge in my cheek when I tell people "that I know three yama arashi" I call them my weather pattern waza.

Good luck and hard practice.


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Regards,
Aaron

9th June 2000, 19:50
There is a yama arashi throw in the Kodokan's revised syllabus. It is sort of like a morote seoi nage, but using a cross lapel grip (same side lapel and sleeve) and finishing with a leg sweep from harai goshi. However, no one ever documented the actual "yama arashi" used by Saigo Shiro. There has been considerable speculation throughout the years, but like the "shooter on the grassy knoll," we'll probably never know the actual truth.

Sincerely,

Don "Banned from Budoseek" Cunningham

[This message has been edited by budokai (edited 06-09-2000).]

MarkF
10th June 2000, 09:28
I've got the latest KodokanJudo (paperback) and I can't find anything actually called that. Could you tell me what page it is on, Don? Harai goshi is definitely from the kito ryu school, but throws, like anything, are ever-evolving. Uchi mata diefinitely may keep uke from slipping off, but so will a well place seoi nage. I have heard so many throws to be variations of yama arashi, that it could be come a school all by itself. The only agreement seems, though, that it was a hip thrwow/sweep of some type, but in Wayne Muromoto's article on that match, it was probably hanegoshi, or a variation. As to the same-side grip, that was a right side natural grip back then. It was nearly impossible to do seoinage with another grip, unless you do the Ippon version which was not around then, and is only pictured, in the latest of KodokanJudo. Given that Kodokan Judo was not really written by J. Kano, there can be very open debate why any throw was devised to do anything. The reason would be, though, that the dogi was cut very differently back then. Also, I have not seen anything which leads me to believe that Saigo's or anyone's opponent in that tournament worethe modern dogi. I may be wrong about this, but it is something which is not really discussed at any length. It only took place under Kodokan rule, which were few, then.



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Mark F. Feigenbaum

MarkF
10th June 2000, 09:46
Don,
Excuse me, but I do see yama arashi listed insterestingly enough, under te-waza throws. Considering that most people believe it to be controlled mainly by the hip, it makes the discussion of this throw even more interesting. I still have not found a description, as it is not listed in the index, and I doubt it ever will. Please excuse me for doubting you. If anything, you are consistent in your research.

Ah, c,mon Don. I want to be banned, too http://216.10.1.92/ubb/smile.gif

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Mark F. Feigenbaum

Mr. Steinkraus,
The confusion over harai goshi is that it is not listed under the "inner workings" or ura of judo, and as such, is not listed in Kodokan Judo as a Kito throw. However, in the relatively short time I did Kito ryu, it was practiced routinely as coming from the Kito school. It may have been adopted after the founding of Kodokan jujutsu, but, nevertheless, I believe it to be from Kito technique. I hope this explanation is of value. Also, Bob, I have some video of Kano doing that exact throw, long with another variation. It is in AVI format. If you would like a copy, send me an email. I believe this came from the collection of the Judo Information Site http://www.judoinfo.com or http://www.judoworld.com
Here I go again. I meant ukegoshi from the leftside, not yama arashi as is itimated by my second of three editings of this post.
[This message has been edited by MarkF (edited 06-10-2000).]

[This message has been edited by MarkF (edited 06-10-2000).]

[This message has been edited by MarkF (edited 06-10-2000).]

10th June 2000, 16:37
Mark,

I may not have been clear in my previous post, but I never intended to give the impression that I knew anything about Saigo's yama arashi. I think any information on this is purely conjecture and no one will ever have a definitive answer.

The Kodokan's video tape, Nage Waza, illustrates the modern version of yama arashi. I'd have to watch it again to be positive, but I recall it was done by placing the right hand grip on uke's right lapel and then throwing with a modified harai goshi. Why it is listed in te waza is a mystery to me.

Sincerely,

Don Cunningham

Ruediger
10th June 2000, 17:22
Hi all,

well, i'm not a judoka and i'm a little bit late but

[Mark F. Feigenbaum wrote in his first post]
"he (Saigo Shiro) was a long time student of Takeda Sokaku."

AFAIK (not so much, really http://216.10.1.92/ubb/smile.gif) Saigo Shiro was the adopted son of Saigo Tanomo (he married Tanomos daughter), and he studied under him. Later he met Kano Jigoro and made his way as one of the heroes of the Kodokan.
Takeda Sokaku was born in 1859, Saigo Shiro in 1868. In 1875 Sokaku met Saigo Tanomo, in 1877 Tanomo started to teach Shiro.

Best Regards

Ruediger Meier

efb8th
11th June 2000, 01:23
In my copy of JUDO by Yokoyama and Oshima (Nishodo Publications. 1915) The authors and the translator all attest that the text is the first English translation of Judo Kyohan. They list Yama Arashi as one of the throws of the Gokyo no Waza (number 6 of the fifth kyo). There is a full description and a good photo of Samura throwing Osumi with what looks for all the world like a harai-goshi with a right sleeve & right lapel grip.

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Ed Burgess

efb8th
11th June 2000, 01:56
In Koizumi's MY STUDY OF JUDO (Cornerstone Library, NY. 1960) Koizumi Sensei demonstrates Yama Arashi in the same manner as Samura, except that Koizumi's arm is bent, and his forearm (rt.) is under uke's right armpit.

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Ed Burgess

MarkF
11th June 2000, 12:05
Well, there you go. Let's see, then it would be possibly harai goshi, or hanegoshi, with a grip similar to tai otshi (with the right lapel grip), but with a twist of a little morote seoinage. I have an old film of Kodokan, but I never did get the video. I think it is time? In the film I mentioned, the only taste given is that the one "judo" match is done with that same grip while skipping around to get an advantage. Also, the foot is shown coming off the mat, but it is censored so as not to make it any clearer. I am so confused!! http://216.10.1.92/ubb/confused.gif

(The film Sanshiro Sugata)

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Mark F. Feigenbaum

MarkF
11th June 2000, 12:20
Hello, Mr. Meier,
I could very well be wrong, but I believe S. Takeda was born in 1860, at least according to my memory and http://daito-ryu.org . I know also that Shiro was adopted by Tanomo, but then, I've never claimed to be up on my aiki history. What made me think of that, was that someone, formerly of the Roppokai, made that observation, probably based on a lack of a concise description of that throw, therefore, as a student of daito ryu, he may have applied an aiki "technique." I also meant that Saigo was a student of daito ryu, and after a time, he left the Kodokan, presumably, to resume his previous study. Again, this is based on my memory of what is stated on the above website. I am usually too lazy to go back and verify anything, so anything I say on the subject of early aiki arts is entirely arguable http://216.10.1.92/ubb/smile.gif

Thank you for the correction.

regards,

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Mark F. Feigenbaum

Ruediger
11th June 2000, 13:14
Hi Mark,

it was not my intention to correct you, just thought, that it is useful to post that Saigo Shiro was not a student of Takeda Sokaku. Well, because i'm not a historian, i also could be wrong http://216.10.1.92/ubb/smile.gif. I used also the link you've shown in your post
http://daito-ryu.org

(they list the birthday of Sokaku as October 10, 1859) and looked in a few books (Draeger's "Modern Bujutsu" for example). Draeger wrote also in his book (S.140), that Saigo Shiro has left the Kodokan and also quit training in oshikiuchi (the teachings of Saigo Tanomo), because he was in a situation in which he had to decide if he will follow Kano or his father. So he started practicing Kyujutsu and did this until his dead.

BTW, there is a nice article at
http://www.furyu.com/archives/issue3/judo.html

at Wayne Murumoto's Furyu.com about the challenge.
I write this not to show how much i know (it is really, really not so much... i know only that i am willing to learn), it's just that i'm interested in almost everything about the history in the Martial Arts.

Best Regards

Ruediger Meier

P.S.: If sometimes my postings sound a bit ... mhhh ... rude, it's just because i'm not a native english speaker and it's not so easy to find the right words to explain what i mean. You know, i'm german, so my stupid brain sometimes makes all and everything but not what is needed to find the right words in english. http://216.10.1.92/ubb/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Ruediger (edited 06-11-2000).]

Osoto2000
11th June 2000, 15:44
Whilst reading the various posts on Yamarashi I have been interested to see confusion over why it should be listed under Te-waza, I may have an answer to that one.
When I was taught it 30 years ago, the leg or hip was not the dominant factor. You grip as previously described left hand on right sleeve, right hand on right lapel. the most important thing I was taught, was the hand action: it is complecated to describe, but I will do my best.
You begin by pulling Uki to their right front corner, once you have achieved Kuzushi you change the direction of your pull to across the front of your body, continue to pull Uki right across and around behind you on your right side. You now change the direction of your pull once again; this last pull and hand positioning is very similar to Morote-seonage. Kake is achieved by pulling strongly down, this is when the leg or hip "can" be used to assist with the throw, however if you get the swirling pull correct Uki can be thrown without any leg or hip contact. This in practice is so difficult to achieve that Yamarashi has developed and changed into predominantly, a Harigoshi type throw. The idea is that you are the mountain and Uki is the stormy wind whirling around you. You should remain relativly static whilst Uki is swirled all around you and finnally dashed to the ground by the gathering momentum of the storm. I hope you find my contribution interesting as this is my first posting to this group.
Yours in Judo, Ray.

efb8th
11th June 2000, 16:21
Ray is right about the shiai application of Yama Arashi. I used it in competition in the early '70's, and the kuzushi path is a very large, aiki-feeling circle. When the timing is right, there is no hip contact at all.

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Ed Burgess

MarkF
12th June 2000, 10:43
Welcome, Ray,
Yours is indeed a big help because the concensus does seem to be that it was indeed te-waza. As you describe it, and as I was taught in the sixties, it was more of a shoulder throw thus the hands are important. Being of small size, shoulder throws, such as seoinage or seoiotoshi, were throws I use to a good degree in shiai. However, no one in any dojo I had ever been has ever, until the recent past, taught that throw as yama-arashi, but it probably more of a semantics problem then exactly what the throw was in the first place. The inclusion of possible aiki influence makes a lot of sense, coming from Saigo Shiro. Also, you are right, when done properly, it is a hand/shoulder operation with the hips acting as the cursor from breaking kusushi to kake. I also found by snapping the throw over and stepping in even further as uke's feet leave the floor (IE, stepping backward and letting uke land "where you are," one of the gokyo no waza directions), it is even more effective. Not withstanding Wayne Muromoto's enjoyable description, I believe it was a "tight circles" throw, and was done with such quickness that a common description is not easy.

BTW: It isn't rude when you can back it up, Mr. Meier, it is an education. My knowledge of the subject is something in which I have not done very much research so I do appreciate it. Also, I have Wayne's description of the match bookmarked as a favorite site http://216.10.1.92/ubb/smile.gif

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Mark F. Feigenbaum

Bob Steinkraus
12th June 2000, 19:03
Thanks to all who are posting.

Mr. Feigenbaum -

I am enjoying the MPEG files on the Judo information site. I think I have seen all the Kano stuff already, but thanks for the offer.

Regards,
Bob Steinkraus

P.S. Anyone who would like to can call me Bob. "Mr. Steinkraus" makes me feel old, and I get enough of that already.

ss29515
12th June 2000, 19:35
As to an aiki feel to some throws, when I get the timing right and the kuzushi just right, it doesn't even feel like I've thrown anyone. Kinda like doing uchimata in kata. When ya get everything just right, the throw is so smooth! It happens only one time in a million, but the feeling lasts a long time.

I don't remember much in the way of actual judo in the Sugata Sanshiro movie. Mostly hands grabbing sleeves and lapels and moving feet and people flying around the room. Argh, forgot the scene where Mr Yano defeats the jujutsu guys in the road.

I've also read things both ways on the Daito Ryu's influence on Saigo Shiro. One article I read (can't remember where) suggested that he was too young to have actually learned any Daito Ryu aikijutsu. I have no idea which side is correct, but it makes for interesting history.

I've tried both judo and aikido and love them both, but judo is my first love.

mel bailey

MarkF
13th June 2000, 10:49
Sorry, Bob, please call me Mark. I know the feeling and time goes by quickly enough to not hang on to a sliver of our youth http://216.10.1.92/ubb/wink.gif

Hi Mel,
You missed (or not) a great discussion which lasted a couple of months concerning aiki, whether it exists at all, and if it does, does daito ryu have a "copywrite" on it. I know the feeling, and it is similar to those who have described playing randori with K. Mifune as "fighting an empty uwagi," which was no doubt the case. I don't know what it is, or whether one can bottle it, but it does happen, and exactly as you described. I miss that feeling, whatever you wish to call it. I have tinkered with Aikido as well, and have applied some of what I had learned to my "curriculum." Some wrist locks come in handy when doing goshin jutsu. It does add something. I just never felt as comfortable in another dojo as I have judo.



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Mark F. Feigenbaum

Piotr Chelstowski
26th June 2000, 09:32
Hi All,
Let me post a few words about yama-arashi. Probably the very first information abaut this throw was from the very first movie by A. Kurosawa - "The judo saga" (English title). (Tobi T. - I can lend you this movie when I will be in D. next time). Generally speaking - there are as many executions of this throw as executors/experts. In my interpretation: arms and upper body work by eri-gripe while legs similarly to hane-goshi except the foot, which uses the instep instead of the top (of the foot). From the practise - this is a nice throw for demonstration, difficult to execut in randori or shiai.

Piotr/Peter Ch.

MarkF
26th June 2000, 12:31
I have seen or heard the description so many times that you get big brownie points for pointing that out, Piotr. I have the movie Sanshiro Sugata, and the novel from which it comes was written by the son of one of the participants, Tomita Tsunejiro. The son's name is Tsuneo. Since the book so closely (much better than a movie made in 1943 Japan) describes the throw, but since key elements of it were never known, It will always remain a mystery, but one I have come to cherish, so leaving that throw as a legend is much more enjoyable to have than the actual throw. But I am still somewhat miffed at something in which you described. For hanegoshi, I cannot see how the foot would be positioned to use the instep, as you describe. Could you explain this with a little more detail? What do you mean by "in-step." As in physiology, that would be the inside and upper part of the foot, so do you mean you place the foot behind the knee/leg? This would seem to be the only manner in which to do that throw, but I do not see how this could be done, and still have the side of the outer part of the foot against the knee/upper leg?

BTW: Did you know that there is a Judo Saga #2? It is listed in Tower Records, but I have so far been able to find a copy. It is still unavailable, but then I haven't been searching for it. Have you seen that particular film/video?

Thank you very much.

Piotr Chelstowski
5th July 2000, 19:28
MarkF,
This is an answer to your post #292.
I would like to apologize for an imperfection of my English. I meant " the sole of the foot" writing "instep". It makes a big difference, obviously. On the other hand it was a good prove that someone is reading these letters, ;)
Answering you next question: - yes, I have seen Judo Saga #2. It was about 25 years ago. For me as a kid in that time, #2 was more interested than #1 .

ss29515
6th July 2000, 04:34
Hi Poitr,

You've seen Judo Saga #2? What was it like? Anything like the first? I never knew there was a second Judo Saga. I've donated my Judo Saga #1 to my dojo. Wish I could find the second for my collection.

mel bailey

ss29515
6th July 2000, 04:38
Hi Piotr,

You've seen Judo Saga #2? What was it like? Anything like the first? I never knew there was a second Judo Saga. I've donated my Judo Saga #1 to my dojo. Wish I could find the second for my collection.

mel bailey

MarkF
6th July 2000, 11:09
Hi Mel,
Try Tower Records http://www.towerrecords.com . That is where I saw a listing for the second Saga. It was not available and did not have an order number either. I first saw the movie when I was about twelve, maybe thirteen, probably in 1964 in Japan town in Los Angeles. I only recently hear that there was a "part 2," and I was just as miffed about it.

Piotr,
Thank you for the clarification. I was really having a problem imagining using the "instep." I suppose it could be placed to the inside of the leg, and lifted outward, but I still didn't see the advantage in that, so your clarification was good indeed (BTW: Your English is very good. Most people who speak English as a second language would not attempt to ascertain correct parts of the body.) Thanks for the input.

efb8th
9th July 2000, 15:23
Good Morning Mark.

(Shamelessly cut-and-pasted in from the "Waza in Shiai" thread.)

Dan Zan Ryu's Yama Arashi appears in Master Okazaki's Nage no Kata (some say Nage Te) as number 20, the final art on the list.

Tori and Uke begin in standard Judo hookup (rt. side). [Later applications in some Okazaki organizations (there are ten) begin with a punch or grab, so Uke initiates the attack.] Tori changes his right-hand lapel grip to a thumb-inside grip at high eri on Uke's right side, shuto edge resting on Uke's neck.

Tori steps forward left, pulling uke's shoulder to his chest and achieving kuzushi to Uke's right rear.

Tori lifts his right leg, bending his knee, and places the ball of his foot behind Uke's right knee.

Tori then turns 45 degrees left as he curls his right toes into the hollow behind Uke's knee and shoots his right leg to as near vertical as possible. The momentum of this thrust (not sweep) takes both Uke and Tori airborne.

Tori guides Uke to a landing on his left side. Tori lands kneeling on right knee, left leg extended away from Uke at right angle to Uke's body, right thigh vertical and firmly bracing Uke's back at the shoulder blades.

Tori then simultaneously executes katate jime to Uke's right carotid (remember the thumb-in grip?) with his right hand, and dislocates Uke's right shoulder by wrapping Uke's right arm (palm up) around Tori's vertical thigh. The shoulder lock and the choke complement each other.

I hope that is clear. This art has a lot of details that can't be left out. "Little fingers, little toes."

MarkF
13th July 2000, 07:15
That is what I can (mentally) see from your description, Ed. No matter what the throw and the follow-thru (beginning with the jime-yes, I did remember the arm position as the beginning of a choke). This is really good follow up or makikomi of a throw to the mat. This is also a difficult one to pull off, I would think, but it has given me some ideas for teaching. I still would rather leave any description of the true yama arashi to legend. That way, you get many takes off this one move, and ending with tsukomi jime-like choke as it is begun in the standing thrust-like choke. If you can get the hand in with a thrust movement and is deep enough, this works great, and is a good throw. If the throw is not "completed (IE, for ippon)," the choke attempt is still there if you haven't let go. The true yama arashi will remain a legend and each generation will give a different take on this waza. One day, I think there will be a description of this throw in the manuals, but, for now, it is only listed as a te waza (or nage te), and I look forward to more variations on a theme:)

efb8th
13th July 2000, 13:16
Hi Mark,

I re-reviewed my Kyuzo Mifune tape, and darned if he doesn't sneak in YA! I'll post a full report when I get it dissected!

Cheers!

Brian Griffin
28th July 2000, 21:18
Originally posted by efb8th
In my copy of JUDO by Yokoyama and Oshima (Nishodo Publications. 1915) The authors and the translator all attest that the text is the first English translation of Judo Kyohan. They list Yama Arashi as one of the throws of the Gokyo no Waza (number 6 of the fifth kyo). There is a full description and a good photo of Samura throwing Osumi with what looks for all the world like a harai-goshi with a right sleeve & right lapel grip.

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Ed Burgess

I'm chiming in kind of late here, but Mr. Burgess is correct in what he reports. This book was originally called Judo Kyohan & came out around 1909--the English translation took a while, I guess.
Yama-arashi _was_ part of the Gokyo back then. The text also classifies it as one of the ashi-waza.
While Saigo left no record of "his" yama-arashi, Yokoyama (the author) knew & trained with him, and was _in_ that famous 1886 Tokyo Police contest.
(Yokoyama was one of the _shitenno_ of the Kodokan--see http://www.furyu.com/archives/issue3/judo.html )
I'm inclined to accept his version as authentic.

There are a couple of other cool things about this little gem of a book:

(1) - The photos illustrating the throws are of people like Kano, Yamashita, Nagaoka, Samura, Mifune etc.

(2) - There's a great shot of a young muscular 4-dan named Maeda. I'm pretty sure he's the one who later ended up in Brazil giving Judo lessons to Helio Gracie's older brothers.

[Edited by Brian Griffin on 07-28-2000 at 03:29 PM]

MarkF
29th July 2000, 07:29
Even with Mifune doing yama arashi and yokoyama describing it, there still doesn't appear to be a consensus. Believe what one will, I would rather leave it a mystery. While it would be nice to have one single consensus on the entire Kodokan syllabus, the inclusion of YA as ashi-waza does go against the original Kodokan judo which lists it as te-waza. That there is politics afoot here is obvious, but I've seen so many with that throw that each one could be a separate waza. There has got to be some magic :cry:

Brian Griffin
8th August 2000, 07:03
After browsing through some of my old books this weekend, I have a couple more datapoints:

Kazuo Ito (9-dan) in "This is Judo for Women" classes yama-arashi with the ashi-waza.

Kawaishi in "My Method of Judo" makes it a koshi-waza closely resembling o-guruma. The leg plays a major role in the technique as he describes it.

Mifune's "Canon of Judo" doesn't give a classification, but also describes the leg action as having a major role. No hip action is described.

MarkF
9th August 2000, 09:02
I was just going through some videos and reading the jackets of some I had forgotten, but while reading the notes of Sanshiro Sugata, the novel is a thinly-veiled story of Saigo Shiro, and I remember that it was written by Tsuneo Tomita, the son of one of the partcipants of this tournament. Has anyone read the novel? If yes, than how does it describe that throw? I have also seen "Judo Saga #2," but neither film goes into the description of that throw, at least to square the description of YA.

Yojimbo558
9th August 2000, 22:47
Hi there!

I don't do Judo, but a friend of mine came back from a seminar ( nope wasn't judo either...it was taught by Obata Sensei ) and was really excited about a technique he learned called Yama Arashi...I don't know it is the one you're looking for but here it is:

Uke: Does a right tsuki

Tori: Moves off line to the left, and grabs Uke's right wrist with his / her right hand.

Tori: Takes their left hand and reaches across the ( underneath Ukes striking arm ) and grabs uke's lapel.

Tori: Then enters with their left foot ( stepping in front of uke...ducking slightly while doing so...while raising both uke's right arm at the same time ).

Tori: Then pulls down on Uke's right arm, while pulling the lapel at the same time and standing up ( throwing uke over tori's right shoulder ).

Whether or not this was the one you were looking for it was alot of fun :)

Eric Bookin

efb8th
10th August 2000, 06:39
SOUNDS LIKE THE AUTHENTIC YAMA ARASHI TO ME!!!

(how about it Mark, sound like the authentic YA to you?)

MarkF
10th August 2000, 09:39
OK, that was a lyric to a song from a garage band known as "The Leaves" in the middle sixties.

It sounds authentic and as tough a throw. Whether it is Yama Arahsi, remains to be seen.

The people I think who come the closest were those who were there, or were training at the Kodokan at the time, but I will say this: It is a unique (or close) a description as I have heard. I have 8mm at home (OK, now I know I am really dating myself), three to be exact, and Yama arashi is done as three fairly distinct waza. When I was a kid, I was told it was a shoulder throw, but that no one had the exact description. I am open to anyone who has a claim because it opens doors to try new (or old in this case) technique. There is a great judo fighter named Koga who has a version of this, and he pulls it off routinely (or at least he did) in randori or shiai. His version looks so awkward that I thought it must be YA, and he was very succesfull at it. Go to the http://judoinfo.com website and download those of Koga. I believes he does this throw in two of the three MPEGs of him. It appears he is going for a right side throw, although it is difficult to tell which, but appears to be seoinage. He enters far enough so that he has attempted the technique as required in shiai (you must commit: no faking allowed in shiai:cry: ). He then comes up, grabs uke by the back of his dogi and left arm and pulls him across his own back while still technically in the right shoulder throw position (I haven't seen anyone else pull this one off, other than Koga), brings him over, raises leg a la hanegoshi, and uke by now is so confused, he doesn't know which ukemi to use. Uke is thrown "inside out," much like one sees on old TV shows, and lands on his back. In one of these, uke appears to be thinking or saying: "what happened?":look:

If this is what your friend is saying, I would admit to Yama Arashi, simply because the one thing which is common to this throw, although not in every YA, is the leg on the inside of the right leg, and coming off the mat so as to use it for lift. At any rate, if you can see this as yama arashi, then I will agree that being unique, I would have no choice. OK, you guys! Got me. Here is a little :kiss: