Paired Practice without Bokken?

[ScottUK]

Hi All,

A training partner asked me if there are swords available with a dull edge that are capable of edge-to-edge contact (not full-on hacking, but kata practice) without damaging the blade?

What are they? Are there any downsides (weight etc)?

I thought I'd pose the question here...

Scott

[Martyn van Halm]

Yes. They're called bokken.

Seriously, a 'metal' blade [like a iai-to] will get damaged if you ram the edge on a hard surface. Then again, you're not supposed to bang swords together. They should only hit pliant flesh...

You can perform kata with iai-to, as long as you don't touch each other's sword. This is however highly difficult and left best to experienced sword students.

[ScottUK]

Hi Martyn,

I *am* an experienced sword student with a number of iaito and live blades. :D I understand what an iaito can and cannot do.

Knowing what a smart-arse western world we live in, I thought someone may have access to swords that are of the qualities I mentioned. As for 'banging swords together', there will always be blade-to-blade contact in our kata. A cut is about to contact part of the body. Do you sacrifice the edge to survive or keep the weapon pristine for the enemy to take home as a trophy of your death?

Besides, TSKSR has a LOT of edge-to-edge contact, no?

Anyway, this is not an argument about using the sword's edge, but a question on modern repro swords that can take repeated light contact (public demos etc etc).

Best wishes,

Scott

[A. Bakken]

Meirin has a "Live sword for Kendo Kata (http://www.nipponto.co.jp/english/iai_e.htm)" that might fit the bill. Note that there's a translation error on the page -- "forged in the Shimazukuri method" should read instead: "made in shinogi-zukuri style" (according to someone who had access to their Japanese catalogue).

[Johan]

In kata TSKSR has lots of edgde to edge contact, but that is in the kata. If you only change the maai you get flesh to edgre contact instead.

[kenkyusha]

Hi there,

Not sure if anyone is making them still, but Bob Burgee (sp?) was for a while making aluminum training blades in Katana lengths and sizes. Still though, having a beater blade for that sort of work isn't a bad thing (it'll force your hasuji to be correct... shinogi good for receiving, mune bad...).

Be well,
Jigme

[fifthchamber]

Hi Scott..
FWIW...The Ono ha Itto Ryu still use a form of 'live sword' against sword training in their Kata...From the tapes I have seen the blades were Iaito...I could be wrong but they sounded like it...It includes some light edge to edge touches but maybe someone who REALLY knows what blades were used could help more.....
Also...I remember reading in Ellis Amdur's "Koryu" book that the Maniwa Nen Ryu also use live blades in training/demonstrations at the higher levels....(Although I think the blades are shinken...).
I also would add that the kata in TSKSR aren't 'quite' as simple to 'see' as was made out earlier...Its a touch deeper than a Maai increase/decrease alone behind the kata effectiveness....But you know that.....
If interested I would get the Itto Ryu tape from Budokan though...The kata, while slightly slower are a good example of the use of blade on blade training in koryu...
HTH!
Regards

[Martyn van Halm]

Originally posted by ScottUK
Hi Martyn,

I *am* an experienced sword student with a number of iaito and live blades. :D I understand what an iaito can and cannot do.
So you understand that a iaito would break if applied in this manner.


Besides, TSKSR has a LOT of edge-to-edge contact, no?Actually, no. Blades might slide against each other, but not with the edges.
If you refer to the paired kata - they're always performed with bokken. In the omote kata both practitioners take more distance and hit each other's bokken instead of the intended area. Whenever a bokken strikes another bokken [in kata] the real target would be a body part close-by. This intention however is not readily revealed to outsiders [or even beginners] to keep the true techniques secret until the student proved himself worthy.


Anyway, this is not an argument about using the sword's edge, but a question on modern repro swords that can take repeated light contact (public demos etc etc).
Most kata can be performed with iaito if stopped just before contact. Edge on edge contact should be avoided at all costs, but everyone makes mistakes, which is why it would be best to keep a [cheap] iaito aside especially for this purpose.

Someone who uses his shinken for tameshigiri wouldn't practice on a lamppost. Even if the blade could handle it without too much damage. Sword edges are designed to cut through flesh and bone and the weak spots of the harness.

Even though you're an experienced student, I'd be careful using metal blades for this 'effect'.


Do you sacrifice the edge to survive or keep the weapon pristine for the enemy to take home as a trophy of your death?What do you mean by sacrificing the edge? If I use a blade as per its design and intention, I will not damage the edge, although it will get worn eventually. Hitting another fighter's blade would be a mistake though... I aim for the body, not the sword.

[ScottUK]

So you understand that a iaito would break if applied in this manner.I wasn't the one who suggested using an iaito. I know first hand how easy they are to damage.


Whenever a bokken strikes another bokken (in kata) the real target would be a body part close-by. This intention however is not readily revealed to outsiders (or even beginners) to keep the true techniques secret until the student proved himself worthy.I've practiced both the kata and the bunkai of these forms - sure, in 'Itsutsu no Tachi', you take a knee and parry the opponent's sword, but in reality you'd bring the sword up into the opponent's kote. I'm not debating this, but all I said was that there is edge-to-edge contact DURING PRACTICE.


Most kata can be performed with iaito if stopped just before contact.Some of our forms require a certain amount of contact, so a sword that can take light contact would be needed.


Someone who uses his shinken for tameshigiri wouldn't practice on a lamppost.Eh?


Even though you're an experienced student, I'd be careful using metal blades for this 'effect'.I've been struck by bokken (repeated over the years!) during 'heated' practice - fortunately no brain damage! A dull-edged sword would pose no greater danger...


What do you mean by sacrificing the edge? If I use a blade as per its design and intention, I will not damage the edge, although it will get worn eventually. Hitting another fighter's blade would be a mistake though... I aim for the body, not the sword. Oh come on - I was talking figuratively. If a cut that you had misjudged was closing on you, would you not sacrifice the edge of your sword?

Anyway, thanks for the reply but I was looking for an answer to my friend's question, not an argument on the application of kenjutsu.

Best wishes,

Scott

[kabutoki]

hi !
i have a catalogue here that i got in japan last year. it has the the swords for kendo kata practice. the pricelist says 70.000 yen for katana and 68.000 for the shoto.
i hope i do not violate the ad-restrictions here by posting the prices. i will neither post names nor adresses. you can pm me if you like to get further info.

hth
karsten

ps: it is shinogi zukuri.

[ScottUK]

Hi Karsten,

The rules about commercial posting are more concerned with you conducting your own marketing (and thus making money) on E-Budo rather than pointing a person in the right direction to a seller.

Please post the details on here so everyone else can benefit. If you'd prefer, you can email me at s.halls@btinternet.com and I'll post the info.

Best wishes,

Scott

[kabutoki]

well then,
i put up a small webpage with a few pics of the catalogue.

http://www.helmholz-castle.com/kendo_kata/kendo%20kata.htm

the catalogue is meant to be given away with a store´s name on the back. it is the one you get when you visit tozando in kyoto and i think they might be able to help you finding the swords. the pricelist doesn´t have a name on it so i don´t know exactly where to buy the swords and whether or not the prices are still valid.

hope it helps anyway...
karsten

[glad2bhere]

I am having a hard time following this as it seems to me that folks are wanting to have their cake-- and eat it too. As the poet says, "every form of refuge has its price."

As was said earlier, I, also, would rather not get into a debate about what portion of the sword one parries with. However, it seems to me that if one does not want to damage a sword or wants to reduce the probability of severe injury then its a matter of going back to hogu and a juk-to, or perhaps muk guem and pads at least. I have seen individuals do paired work with shin guem but both individuals were 8th dan and had trained most of their lives (and probably could have done the material blindfolded at full speed if required). If it were me, and I was bound and determined, I'd get a couple of gunto at the next gun show or a couple of those NOS blades without the edge. History relates that the katana of the samurai warrior were not the pristine, razor sharp presentation swords of today and there was a reason for that. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Gmason]

Hi,

As your from the UK, Ninecircles stock a Kendo No Kata blade, which is described on the webpage, as having no grove and is made of a stronger metal to allow blade to blade contact. Don't know how they would withstand edge to edge contact, but as you said you know all about that. I think they are about £200 each.

My friend also bought a Kendo No Kata blade from E-Bogu and is pleased with that. But he only uses it for Kendo Kata.

[Martyn van Halm]

Originally posted by ScottUK
I've practiced both the kata and the bunkai of these forms - sure, in 'Itsutsu no Tachi', you take a knee and parry the opponent's sword, but in reality you'd bring the sword up into the opponent's kote. I'm not debating this, but all I said was that there is edge-to-edge contact DURING PRACTICE.
Yes. And kata practice is with bokken, never with metal blades. Only in demonstrations some people use iaito for effect, except that they take extreme care not to touch each other's body or sword.


Originally posted by ScottUK
I've been struck by bokken (repeated over the years!) during 'heated' practice - fortunately no brain damage! A dull-edged sword would pose no greater danger...Since the width of the striking area of a blunt-edged sword is about one tenth the width of the striking area of a regular bokken, the damage is also likely to be more severe. I've suffered bruises from bokken contact that would've been fleshwounds/broken bones if hit by a blunt-edged sword.


Originally posted by ScottUK
Anyway, thanks for the reply but I was looking for an answer to my friend's question, not an argument on the application of kenjutsu.
I wasn't argumenting the application of kenjutsu itself, but the application of training tools in kenjutsu and the reason for using bokken instead of swords for kata practice.

In the AikiDojo it would be frowned upon if someone used a metal blade for kata practice. Your dojo must have different rules.

Best wishes.

[glad2bhere]

Dear Martyn:

".....In the AikiDojo it would be frowned upon if someone used a metal blade for kata practice. Your dojo must have different rules...."

Since we are talking equipment anyhow, and its obvious you are acquainted with using a bok-ken in the dojo, do your folks also use the heavier suburito or is this a relatively new wrinkle in Japanese training tradition. I ask only because I hear it referred to so rarely. In my Korean Kum Bup training I personally use a heavier "bok ken" (we call it a "muk guem") and then I have a lighter one for practice and paired work. However, this is not standard practice for everyone but rather a personal decision. Comments?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Martyn van Halm]

We have a few dojo suburito and one of my training partners has a personal suburito, since he figured it would enhance his technique. Right now, he is most often using a regular bokken, since his technique was not progressing much from handling this heavier weapon.
Although a suburito might be equal to a regular sword in weight, it lacks balance. The weight is very much divided to the tip, making the suburito 'top-heavy'.

Another student used weighted wristbands instead of a heavier bokken - suffice to say that without them, handling the bokken feels much lighter.

My personal bokken is average weight [700 grammes, I believe], but some of us use lighter bokken [around 400 grammes], which to me feels like swinging a reed around.

Since I also practice a lot with heavy naginata and bo, I don't feel the need for a heavier bokken or weighted wristbands, but if I wanted to increase my arm strength I'd opt for the weighted wristbands over the heavier bokken.

To test 'kime' we have a car tyre in a wooden support to test maki-uchi strikes. This is often done with a suburito by beginners.

[DCPan]

Originally posted by Martyn van Halm
Yes. And kata practice is with bokken, never with metal blades. Only in demonstrations some people use iaito for effect, except that they take extreme care not to touch each other's body or sword.


Do you mean NEVER for TSKSR, or NEVER for any kata practice of ANY style?

:D

[Martyn van Halm]

Originally posted by DCPan
Do you mean NEVER for TSKSR, or NEVER for any kata practice of ANY style?

:D
I don't do other styles than the one listed in my sig.