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Martyn van Halm
26th August 2003, 18:32
I considered a poll, but I prefer if every participant to this thread not only gave their opinion on this subject, but also elucidate concerning their reasons for having this opinion.

The question is this:

If an advanced student corrects a less advanced student, how far can/should they go?

- no correction - only the instructor corrects
- non-verbal correction only - and only flagrant mistakes.
- non-verbal correction only - all mistakes, flagrant and subtle.
- verbal correction allowed - only flagrant mistakes
- verbal correction allowed - all mistakes, flagrant and subtle
- other

I'd like to add that I'm not asking about opinions concerning instructing by advanced pupils, etcetera, but correcting mistakes only.

What is your opinion to the best course of action and why do you think so?

don
26th August 2003, 19:17
Originally posted by Martyn van Halm
If an advanced student corrects a less advanced student, how far can/should they go?....

What is your opinion to the best course of action and why do you think so?

I tend toward a minimalist approach; the less talk the better, particularly when the teacher is circulating.

That said, caveats apply, of course.

With a rank beginner, more correction will be necessary. I try not to talk and, having made a correction--perhaps simply by not falling (I do aikido)--give the student several opportunities to practice it.

With people I train with regularly, I know who wants to be interupted and corrected and who doesn't proceeding apace(I'm one of the latter--let me work it out. Stop me, but don't talk at me).

With strangers, seminars and such, I just shut up. There's too much ego and defensiveness flying around. When they want to correct me, I say, "Can we talk about it after class and train now?" When students ask me, I'll often say the same.

Mike Williams
27th August 2003, 11:10
What Don said.

At my JJ club, I'm expected to help the lower grades. I would prefer to do it non-verbally (just keep going until it works) - but some people do need correction, it can save a lot of time and frustration.

Usually I will say "try doing this...", or "see if it works better this way" instead of " no, no, no, that's all wrong you feckin' eedjit!" :D
Sometimes it's just really simple stuff like "bend your knees" or "keep your hands up". If I'm screwing up, I would also hope that people point it out to me.

With strangers and at seminars etc., I too just shut up.

Cheers,

Mike

Martyn van Halm
28th August 2003, 10:38
In unarmed martial arts [jiu-jitsu/aikido] one doesn't need much verbal correction, since you can make people feel what they do wrong.
In armed martial arts this is much more difficult, both because of the distance and 'lack of feeling' through weapons.
Does this difference make up for a difference in correcting mistakes?

ulvulv
9th September 2003, 20:24
At a big znkr-iai seminar this summer, we were practising before the grading, and I took a five-minute break to get an impression of the other people. One guy kept bending his upperbody forward at the initiation of a thrust where it should be kept upright. I thought it maybe would be considered rude to correct him, but as it sure would help his grading, I told him his error. He seemed happy to be corrected. One hour later, grading time, he did the same error. I will keep my mouth shut on future seminars. ;)

bruceb
9th September 2003, 22:46
About the best advice is to keep the chatter to a minimum and keep the students rotating so they all get to train with each other. If students must correct students, keep it to a minimum.

It is gonna happen, there is no way to take it out of the learning process, yet the lessons of practice should help to clear up any questions within the physical practice or the teacher taking a few moments to instruct.

Obviously, the correction of mistakes or the safety of the students is the responsibility of the teacher, but then the senior students should be aware of not just their practice but the practice of juniors around them. It is impossible to predict when a mistake will occur because it is the nature of mistakes to happen to anyone at anytime, but keeping in mind that we are students .....

Funny this should come up?

I was just at a seminar in Morristown, NJ, ACNJ, with Yousef Mehter from Syracuse, NY, and although I was with two students having a hard time doing the practice, both he and Greg O'Connor were keeping a watchful eye to see if students needed a little advice and a hand, as it were. It took just a slight eye contact and a tilt of the head to get the attention of whoever was looking my way, but immediately either one of them came over to clear up whatever misconceptions each student had.

How much latitude should a student have? Enough so they can work out a technique, enough so they know to call a teacher when they can't untangle a puzzle, and enough so they know to stop when danger arises.

On average, it seems to take about three to four years of practice to get to this point with most students being self sufficient in practice, or needing minimal instruction to correct mistakes.

In our western society, there has to be as much verbal as physical instruction, this is what works the best.

No matter what the student does to correct another student, either the instructor or his/her assistant should be asked about a point of detail, and if there is a problem, it should be discussed by the instuctor with the class. Always keep the communication lines open between students and students, but let them confirm their suspicions with the instuctor or seniors who familiar with the instuctors wishes, and training style.

I know I am stating the obvious, but you know what .... sometimes that is what we need to do in class just to keep things safe and moving along, don't we?

Mitch Saret
10th September 2003, 19:23
I think senior students are expected to aid the younger/newer students. How far they go depends on the instructor of that class. During kihon a minimum amount of correcting would be needed, as they all should be aware of what they are doing. Usually just a look and a view of it being done correctly will get someone on the right path. During specific technique, that's a bit different.

I had a student keep telling me what he has done, or would do in a fight, and try to show me,and so forth. I kept telling him all that was well and good, and if it worked, fine. But what we are dealing with in class is a specific set of principles and techniques based on the style we do. I appreciate seeing whjat he has used, but that's not what the class is about. You came here to learn what we teach, not the other way around. He stayed another week or two.

But that get's past the point of the thread. It really is up to the instructor, and what he/she expects of the senior students. And if those students know the material in question.

One thing I have discovered since I began teaching...I always pick up something new about why a technique works as I go over it with new people. All of a sudden, something clicks. And I share that with my students as a way of showing them that your learning days never really end. It helps to humble you a bit in their eyes, showing that you never become like one of those other threads mentions..."deified" or the ultimate "master!"

bruceb
19th September 2003, 15:54
That was a bad photo of Yamada shihan walking about during our spring seminar.

If you notice, he is observeing the practice of his senior instructors who are at the forefront of the mat.

The student becomes the teacher, the teacher becomes the student. Somewhere in the midst of discovery we find the truth of practice and its application.

I guess my point is .... as wrong as a student is or gets when practicing, once the proper manner is shown to practice that impression is forever embedded in their mind as a blueprint to achieve proficientcy.

When in doubt, stop and wait for the teacher to help the students having trouble. If a senior student cannot help, then ask the students correcting each other to wait for the teacher to sit in seiza until the teacher can clear up the problems.

Yeah .... there will always be problems, and some students must struggle through mistakes to learn, but so long as they are not a danger to themselves or others, and work within the parameters of practice .... let 'em learn. In the great scheme of things .... we are all students.

Sochin
19th September 2003, 22:46
I limit it, only brown and above can correct and then only with permission (as practice). Otherwise it tends to become verbal karate, "I talk about it so I'm bad!"

For myself, I say, "That's good but if you want it to be more effective, or to look more like a black belt, why don't you try ...?"

bruceb
23rd September 2003, 18:17
Originally posted by Sochin
I limit it, only brown and above can correct and then only with permission (as practice). Otherwise it tends to become verbal karate, "I talk about it so I'm bad!"

For myself, I say, "That's good but if you want it to be more effective, or to look more like a black belt, why don't you try ...?"

Some lessons can not be imparted with words ... sometimes actions must take the place of words and mistakes must teach the student.

You know it, I know it, so why work in absolutes? Things like only letting certain levels of color belts teach or discuss problems does not always keep problems to a minimum.

There has to be a certain amount of latitude for students to interact. Set those limits and give your students some freedom.

How would any of us communicate on line if we didn't talk? Pictures? OOOOOhh ... now there is real trouble.

couch
3rd October 2003, 20:16
I also like it when the instructor pairs up a beginner with an advanced student. "I'd like to introduce you to *person x*, he/she will keep an eye on you, and help you for the duration ot the class."

Thanks,
Kenton Couch

StrangeFruit
18th October 2003, 18:23
Ive always felt that its important for the senior students in a class to get used to the idea of any and all forms of correcting their juniors. They are after all the next generation of teachers and should early on develop a level of comfort with instructing others.

That having been said I always keep a close eye on what is going on and if I hear someone start talking I always perk up and pay attention to what is being said in order that if something is misstated or if there is any difficulty I can always lend a helping hand.

Correction is a good thing. We're there to help each other arent we? It often irritates me to see a student struggling with a technique that his training partner knows quite well, but just rolls his eyes or stands there looking like a bump on a log. I mean if you were going to let an out of town friend drive you to the store would you just let him drive around till he found it or would you just give him directions?

don
18th October 2003, 19:31
Originally posted by StrangeFruit
Correction is a good thing. We're there to help each other arent we? It often irritates me to see a student struggling with a technique that his training partner knows quite well, but just rolls his eyes or stands there looking like a bump on a log.

But probably more common than what you describe above is overteaching. I have seen this many times in classrooms, too. Students need space to make mistakes and figure things out for themselves. If they want help, they can always ask. But there are all too many dilettantes who know everything after their 6 months training, IMPOSE it on their peers, and so prevent them this opportunity.

Kneppy18
18th October 2003, 21:58
Well, I just started my training at a Bujinkan dojo run by 13th dan, Ed Martin. All age groups and levels practice together and I got paired up with a 4th dan (still not yet allowed to teach because the requierment is 5th dan) but remember, this was my first day with a MA since elementary school, which hardly counts.

Anyway, through this other student of Mr. Martin, I learned my stance and how to effectively punch and dodge blows. If it weren't for that other student teaching me the basics, either I would've never been taught them or Mr. Martin would've had to leave the rest of the class in order to help me.

I think it is not only a good thing, but almost essential for upper level students to teach (at least the basics) the lower level students.

Just my opinion,
-Aaron Knepp

don
19th October 2003, 21:01
[QUOTE]Originally posted by StrangeFruit

Apropos of nothing..."StrangeFruit "--reference to Billy Holiday and the justice of Jim Crow?

StrangeFruit
20th October 2003, 02:38
Originally posted by don
[QUOTE]Originally posted by StrangeFruit

Apropos of nothing..."StrangeFruit "--reference to Billy Holiday and the justice of Jim Crow?

huh?

Hanna B
20th October 2003, 08:28
Originally posted by don
When they want to correct me, I say, "Can we talk about it after class and train now?" Sounds like a good one. I'll try it! I am also one of those who does not like to be over-taught.

I feel the best correction from my partner is when my partner does the technique. If I know I have a problem, I can observe and then if necessary ask for help. If I do not ask for help, I am probably in the process of trying to figure out. If I need help and do not ask for it - well, that is kind of my problem I think.

When teaching, I used not to touch on these issues. Nowadays I actively try to minimize the "sempai teaching" in my classes, as I think it overall has a negative impact. In classes smaller than 10 people there is IMHO very little need for "sempai teaching". Advanced students teaching their partner easily end up pointing out more or less every mistake they see. If accepted, it must be supervised.


Originally posted by Martyn van Halm
The question is this:

If an advanced student corrects a less advanced student, how far can/should they go?

- no correction - only the instructor corrects
- non-verbal correction only - and only flagrant mistakes.
- non-verbal correction only - all mistakes, flagrant and subtle.
- verbal correction allowed - only flagrant mistakes
- verbal correction allowed - all mistakes, flagrant and subtle
- other

How about "students should give advice to other students only when asked for"?

This functions differently in differen dojos, and in the end is up to the teacher and size of class. The non-verbal version can be nice. I prefer to say it this way: the advanced student can give advice, but should not confuse this with teaching. I do not quite like the term "correcting" either. Sometimes advice is unwanted, then it is better not to give them. Having fresh beginners into mixed class in an exception, though. Just be careful so the teaching attitude does not spill over to the entire class.


Originally posted by Martyn van Halm
In armed martial arts this is much more difficult, both because of the distance and 'lack of feeling' through weapons.
Does this difference make up for a difference in correcting mistakes?
Personally, I find it equally easy or difficult to feel when something is wrong in paired weapons practise as in weaponless. Maybe more difficult to feel the way out of the problem, though.

I think here lies a difference in that in jujutsu/taijutsu uke is a tool for nage to pratise on, so to speak. In paired weapons practise, both parties are each others tools. I think it is about attitude. I still not like the "teaching" version, although it might be more needed here. The student so easily get stuck in a teaching role that he or she stops looking at her or his own mistakes while concentrating on the partner.

BTW, "Strange Fruit" is one of Billie Holiday's most famous songs. It is about a lynching.

Southern trees bear strange fruit,
Blood on the leaves and blood at the root,
Black bodies swinging in the southern breeze,
Strange fruit hanging from the poplar trees.

http://www.boscarol.com/nina/html/where/strangefruit.html
You didn't know?!?

Mike Williams
20th October 2003, 16:40
Originally posted by StrangeFruit
huh?

Really? Your ID isn't a reference to Billie Holiday? You should do a quick google on her name and on 'strange fruit'.

Cheers,

Mike

ssanutokh
29th January 2009, 19:39
Speaking from a student's perspective, I *want* my training partners to help me train. When I know something's not quite right with my technique, and it's not plainly obvious to me, I nearly *always* ask my training partner if they can see what I'm doing wrong.

While I *have* had training partners get miffed over it, I've *never* had an instructor get upset about it - on the contrary, it seems like some of those questions open up the floor for discussion and demonstration of peripheral applications that weren't previously on the docket for that training session.

Kriz
6th December 2010, 22:44
Hi there,

reading in the background and I think this my 1st post as I think I can't add that much of value. I've been training in the Bujinkan for about 4 years and recently received my Shodan and some of the Kyu grades, who are also good friends of mine, start asking me more and more questions (about technique, not basics like kamae, punches etc.) plus they seem to like to experiment on how far they can go with me as a black belt (Can I pull this of? How's he reacting? TBH, I follow Newton's 3rd law ;)) as they knew me as a Kyu grade in the past and I'm the only one they know or trained with who received his Shodan in the last 12 months. I don't mind replying to a question but don't see me in a position to teach/instruct as I only see me as a beginner who's belt colour has changed. This thread is quite helpfull as sometimes I'm a little bit lost and I'm just getting to know my Instructor (If it makes sense what I mean) so it's quite nice to find advice here.

Cheers,
Kris Stern

HamsterDude
18th November 2016, 11:21
Hi everyone!

I was a teacher at the university and I had such cases when the more smark (we may say clever, fast or so) student was correcting the others in spelling, grammar of the other students (i was teaching language).

As for me, i really didn't like that. I consider, the teacher not only have the power to correct, but also, he rules at the class. When the students start duing this, it is no fact that those whom they are correcting will not be offended, and it could be that this correcting is wast, the material a learned wrong as students do not percieve other studets as teacher, as insrtuctor, at the ent as a competent one, whom they can trust.

Other case, when students out of the class help each other to cope with the topic. This not only helps to learn material for those who are bad in it, but for those who explain - it is a good way to better get the material.

Thanks!

cxt
18th November 2016, 16:50
Makes sense to me.

Other students, even if well meaning, are not the teacher. They may not be telling the other student to right thing at the right time.