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Chad Bruttomesso
25th September 2000, 15:32
Since my first day on the mat people have always told me "don't use strength/muscle when executing the technique". On certain levels I agree with this but on others I find it difficult to accept. On several occasions I have practiced with people who couldn't do the technique through proper form so they just used a little muscle and were able to throw me. Last weekend at a seminar I attended the sensei said "It is ridiculous to think that you don't have to use strength to do a technique when just starting out. You have to use strength until you know how to perform the technique effectively, then you can do it without strength".

I would really like to hear what people think about this. What role does strength play in Aikido?

Thank you for your time.

Dojorat
25th September 2000, 17:34
Greetins,

As the saying goes....

"...Old Age and Treachery beat Youth and Strength...
Everytime..."

The older I get in age (~45 years) and the more experienced I get in martial arts (~28 years) the more I realize how treacherous good technique is and how fleeting youth and strength can be. Use your youth and strength and learn to be a treacherous old man (woman).

Cheers,

RDeppe
25th September 2000, 18:24
My experience lately is that very small corrections in my posture make my technique much much better (ie closer to effortless) and that having a little muscle helps me experiment and 'feel' my way into these correct positions.

So for me it helps. I don't know that it's necessary, but having strength helps me get to where I don't need my strength.

BTW, Hi Chad.

Robert Deppe

Mark Jakabcsin
25th September 2000, 19:44
"You have to use strength until you know how to perform the technique effectively, then you can do it without strength". "

Interesting view point but I believe somewhat flawed. If a person learns to do some technique affectively using strenth what will be the catalyst be to learn it without strength? I believe a large part of learning the technique is learning to relax, feel uke and not use strength. To use strength to do an affective technique is a contradiction of affective technique. Secondly, many techiques (aiki no jutsu) simply do not work if one uses strength. While one might be able to muscle through many of the jujutsu based techniques that make up basic aikido it is not possible to do so on aiki techniques. A new student must learn the basic body motions but that does not mean they must use strength to learn those body mechanics. Personally, I feel a student should be encouraged to slow way down, move very deliberately and feel how uke's body shifts and moves. This requires a solid and patient uke but is worthwhile for both participants. By doing this a new student can learn the body mechanics without learning the habit of applying strength to every technique.

mark

MarkF
26th September 2000, 10:51
I think the use of strength is similar to taking ukemi. At first, it will hurt, then it will hurt only the arms. After a while, you hit the mat even harder, but you have learned to spread out the absorption of hitting, and you suddenly find it does not hurt, you can take ukemi from what seems to be impossible waza, but you have learned how to spread it out.

I think it is the same with strength. Patience is key here, as Mark J. says, but some strength is always necessary, but experience tells you when, where, and how, and suddenly you are doing waza with what feels like no strength: you have found your center.

I am not an aiki no jutsu practitioner, but it is amazing how similar it can be to judo, or jujutsu. You need to learn exactly where strength is needed, how much, and otherwise relaxing. If you can master the waza, maintaining strength to a minimum, using it in short, compact bursts, and then immdiately becoming soft again, you will eventually be able to do this without tiring. There are people who have mastered this long ago, who can still do it even though they are in their seventies, eighties, and one I know who is still as agile, in his nineties. Eventually, minimum effort wins out. You just need to be patient. It will come, given a chance. Remember to be soft. This is true of most arts, in my opinion, anyway.

Mark F.

Onami
26th September 2000, 15:18
Perhaps the question of the use of strength in Aikido
relates more to the difference between the use of strength and the use of force.
Certainly strength is used in Aikido. In order to blend with an uke or to "get off of the line of attack" one must move one's body. Bodily movement requires strength of body.
The issue seems to be whether or not is acceptable to "force" a technique. This is a subtle issue and provides an opportunity for self examination. It seems to me that the question that I must ask myself is "am I trying to force the technique?". If so, this seems to be contrary to the spirit of good Aikido.

Jonathan Mayhall

Mark Jakabcsin
26th September 2000, 19:48
Mark F. and Jonathan,
Thanks for the input/correction. You are both correct that when I said no strength I didn't mean NO STRENGTH, just minimal. I like Jonathan's wording about no force with minimal strength much better than my wording. This paints a much clearer picture. Thanks.

mark

Gil Gillespie
27th September 2000, 22:42
Excellent thread. Very valuable when considered from all these facets. I'm one of those sempais who discourages use of strength. At root here is the old MA distinction between strength and power; between speed and quickness. The difference is qualitative and crucial, the latter being preferable in almost all instances. Why? Because strength and speed must be martialed, must be gathered. There's a miniscule time lapse. Quickness and power are NOW. The 100m champion is the "world's fastest human." But the barometer of quickness is the 40!

Over the years I have been thrown with strength and I have been thrown with power. Both have ground my nose into the mat. Lumpy ukemi, y'see. . . Yet invariably when I am thrown with strength I feel "yanked;" I feel Aikido being done TO me. When my partner uses power, it comes from hara, it is enabled by misubi, the technique happens WITH me. As uke I can FEEL the difference.

Years ago at a seminar Saotome Sensei came up to a huge musclehead boy, and tapping his pecs and biceps smilingly asked, "What for this?"

Mike Collins
28th September 2000, 00:45
I am a big, strong guy. I have had as a continuing theme in my Aikido career, the struggle to let go strength and allow relaxed power.

I train with a lot of people, some who insist that without muscle, technique is impossible. They'll spend years forcing technique on others and tell me I'm a brute, when I don't allow them to force bad technique on me. Then there are those (few) who insist that muscular strength is anathema to good technique, and they refuse to use any muscle at all. They spend much time training with more polite people than me, and tell me I'm a brute because I don't fly when they try to do technique with no strength at all.

Then I get to train with some really good people who use enough muscle at first to train their Ki to flow through certain pathways to get technique to work (Or maybe they just learn how to do technique, I don't know).

Point is, I think muscle, like timing, distancing, breath, Ki (whatever that is), understanding of technique etc... has it's rightful place in martial arts, Aikido included. It isn't, and shouldn't be a central part of good Aikido.

szczepan
29th September 2000, 04:40
"The issue seems to be whether or not is acceptable to "force" a technique. "

From my experience, we force a technique first 20-30 years of practice and there are no shortcuts.I mean here when technique is executed against not artificial attack.Of course there are teachers who drill uke to react in certain ways, and next claim they can do a technique with no strength.I call this a fake.

I believe uke must take care about his own security but that's all.We can't impose any other limits otherwise all our practice in long term will withdraw from reality of martial way.
I let uke to attack and react at my technique at their will and must honestly say that I still force a technique under these conditions.

I firmly believe that uke must push tori to his physical limits.Tori must use full force and all his technique and if he still can't go through, then this situation will force him to figure out non-physical solution to resolve his problem.In the other side uke will develop some muscles and strength which is very usefull in martial arts - paticularly young generation is very weak today.

Also O'sensei encouraged his students to use full force for ptactice and there are still witness of it (ie : K.Tochei sensei).

regardz

Russ Qureshi
29th September 2000, 17:59
Hey Szczepan,

Greetings from Vancouver! I gotta start by saying I really like your posts...., you're "out there"...,in an entertaining way. No offence, eh. I like the fact that you stick to your guns, so to speak.

As per your post, you state that "....uke must push tori to physical limits and tori must use full force and all his technique...." So, I'm wondering if people in your dojo shy away from training with you? Do your sempai encourage you to go full blast all the time? Does your sensei endorse your ideas? And finally, have you ever injured someone by accident?

Anyway, have a great day and enjoy your training.

Sincerely,

Russ

szczepan
29th September 2000, 19:57
Originally posted by Russ Qureshi
Hey Szczepan,

Greetings from Vancouver! I gotta start by saying I really like your posts...., you're "out there"...,in an entertaining way. No offence, eh. I like the fact that you stick to your guns, so to speak.

As per your post, you state that "....uke must push tori to physical limits and tori must use full force and all his technique...." So, I'm wondering if people in your dojo shy away from training with you? Do your sempai encourage you to go full blast all the time? Does your sensei endorse your ideas? And finally, have you ever injured someone by accident?

Anyway, have a great day and enjoy your training.

Sincerely,

Russ

Hi Russ,

so many questions, and i have only 5 min before next aikido class...
Yes,some of my classmates don't like train with me, those lazy&hiperintelectual philosophers...;-D
My sempais.....I really don't know their opinions, they are not very often in the dojo anymore....hehehe
My sensei push me to the limits every time I'm his uke.
For injury question, not far away from a dojo there is hospital so all dead bodies after every class they take immediately - we have all year subscribtion to their promotion program...

hope this help

if you ever travel to Montreal mail me
janczuk@ibm.net

regardz

Russ Qureshi
29th September 2000, 20:32
Hey Szczepan,

Thanks for your reply. Almost exactly what I expected!
The hospital should be paying you a bounty! If you're in Vancouver let me know pak@idmail.com

Looking forward to your next post!

Russ

autrelle
30th September 2000, 04:28
hmm...this is a great thread indeed. the use of strength is always something that comes about when learning aikido. here are a few thins that ring clear to me:

we learn to generate power by efficient use of the body to,
not just muscular strength.

if you learn to get a feel for doing the technique properly and without unnecessary power first, then you can add as much power to a technique as you want at any time.

if your technique is always based on strength, it won't work against a stronger person. that would suck, wouldn't it?

Chad Bruttomesso
30th September 2000, 04:39
Autrelle,

First off, welcome to E-Budo. Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us.

It is a policy here one E-Budo that we sign all posts with our full names. You can either put it into your profile as a signature or enter it in manually for each post. Either way please sign with your full name.

We look forward to your company in our many spirited discussions.

Thank you,

Gil Gillespie
30th September 2000, 06:22
autrelle, yes by all means get down with the program, bc this forum is worth it! that said the points in your post were nailed. this may be your first post but you're no newbie!

if ones whole concern is forcing the technique you "jes ain't doing aikido." if you're blasting through your uke you may be doing some jutsu, if you're using all muscle to push your partner to some cockeyed definition of what is spozed to be happening you may some kickass budoka, but you ain't doing no aikido. hell if you're attaining great leverage and dumping the brains out of somebody you may be approaching sumo, but you ain't doing aikido.

ueshiba sensei went through all that. the root of aikido is aiki. softness is not weakness. blending is not weakness. circles and spirals are not weak. in the execution of technique with those concerns great power is possible. again, power over strength. it's a life of study for all of us.

astudent
30th September 2000, 06:41
as autrell said if you rely on strength you are doomed if you come across someone stronger then you. look at O'sensei. he was a small and frail looking old man. he needed help getting up the steps to his dojo, definitly not alot of strength there, but there's no arguing he didn't have power.

i can see what was originally meant about using strength at first then using it less later. i think i may have been to the same seminar. at first, you're still looking at your feet and trying to figure out what to do with the rest of your body. but i think as you train more you realize that you don't have to work as hard to accomplish the same technique, you don't have to muscle it even when the person is stronger. as a matter of fact the less you muscle it the easier it sometimes seems.

MarkF
30th September 2000, 11:21
Someome said this to me a long time ago, and it probably applies here: "There is strength in power."

Jonathan said it best, I think. One can think with all the strength in the world, but it will not give you the power to remember, or feel, or anything else. Power is relative and can come to you, whether you are a weight-lifter, or a painter, musician, etc.

Doesn't it amaze you when someone walks in, never having done any budo before, then after learning a throw or other waza, it just is there, something you have worked years to do, and the beginner has it before h/she begins serious training?

I hate that.:D

Mark F.

autrelle
30th September 2000, 18:01
i think that we are ready to delve into another aspect of the use of strength in aikido, that being strategy. one of the basic tenets of strategy that i have learned is that you can't rely wholly on something that has limits (strength). that would be like a kenjutsuka basing technique on having the longer sword, because sooner or later, someone will have one that's longer. and realistically, if (heaven forbid) you are ever accosted in the street, you attacker will have already decided that you are the perfect victim for some reason, usually because they feel they will be STRONGER than you. get it? no one that is obviously weaker/smaller than you will ever attack you unless they have weapons or friends. relying on strength is not sound strategy.

oh, and isn't it odd how we aikidoka spend a lot of time learning to deal counteract someone ELSE'S strength...

Mark Jakabcsin
30th September 2000, 18:25
"that would be like a kenjutsuka basing technique on having the longer sword, because sooner or later, someone will have one that's longer. "

I knew SIZE mattered!!

rossl42
1st October 2000, 08:55
Great topic. Lovely discussion, so far.

Makiyama Sensei in his book, "Keijutsukai Aikido" suggests that the use of excessive force results from disregard of proper ma-ai (distance in space and time) and marui (circular motion / principle). Shioda Sensei's "Total Aikido" provides a lengthier list of principles which underlie the apparently "effortless" application of technique.

I'm not sure where to start regarding my own opinions of using strength: my aim is always to use as little muscular power as possible in the execution of technique (for exactly the reasons given above), BUT

In all honesty it IS always easier to perform techniques on smaller, less powerful people than big, strong people (strength must be playing some role, even if it is just providing an error margin)

I have trained with some immensely powerful individuals (e.g. a 120 kg ex rugby league player) whose light, gentle movements had tremendous force behind them

and

In my experience, some applications (variations) of techniques do require a certain relativity in size or strength between the training partners to be effectively applied.

Meanwhile, training with people of different sizes, shapes and backgrounds allows me to work on trying to discover what works for me and the most effective (least effort involved) ways of achieving success. Or, as I've told some people with less experience than I have: "I can teach you in 5 minutes how to smash someone's arm. But if you want to be able to control someone bigger and stronger than yourself with the subtle application of technique, that will take a little longer."

Sorry if the above is a bit disjointed. Hope you can make some sense out of it.

autrelle
1st October 2000, 17:19
my point earlier is that if we learn to perform techniques in a manner that isn't just all muscle, then you can apply them to anyone, big or small. whenever i find myself struggling with a technique, or just workingto hard to pull it off, i backtrack. am i moving from a hanmi posture? is my maai correct? am i using proper body alignment (feet, hips, hand, head)? do i need atemi? am i doing a proper kokyu with my hands and arms? am i in shikaku? but i never hear myself saying "do i need to apply more power?" my instructor insrtucted to grab him in the manner of yubidori (finger holding). he's a tiny guy and i'm not. he made the notion to show that it is hard to use force from that position because it is so easy to control his finger or even break it if he struggles. then (i still don't know how he did it), he threw me about three feet away him. his motion was entirely unperceived by myself and onlookers, but i do know that i felt no strength in the technique. he always admonishes me to "loosen power."

dainippon99
2nd October 2000, 00:55
Im a biggun. I can fess up to it. At age 15, Im about 6'2", 245. because i am so big, i have a great handle on stability in the sense that when me and a partner play at randori (yes i study shodokan aikido), i can always foil an attempted gedan-ate, for example. But i have probalems with moving off the line af attack because im thinking heavy. My sensei always says "Bobby, you have to think light. make light your frame of mind. then you can move with greater ease. I still have trouble, but when your san kyu i guess you have time to stretch out the kinks. anyway, i think that instead of using strength outright, maybe if you thought strong, but kept yourself relaxed and gentle, it could show through in your technique.

szczepan
2nd October 2000, 02:41
It always amazing me when ppl say " O'sensei or (put name here) sensei do aikido effortless.

hey, these guys have 50 or more years of practice!!!!!!!!1
When Shioda sensei had one year of aikido training, do you really believe he did aikido(aikibudo or whatever) effortless?

No kidding.

You can create artificial environement to be able practice ie: " one finger 3 feets projection" or "no touching throws", but in reality to throw somebody who actively resisting one must exactly knows how and which muscles to use.
To discover mechanic of movement we must use strenth.It doesn't mean focus how to increase strenth, but simply to have correct coordination of body and to do techniques efficiently even in relativeley early stage of training.
As byproduct it will liberate them from such useless questions as effectiveness aikido on the street or if small woman can do efficient technique on 250 lb heavyweight wresling world champion :rolleyes:
I often hear quite advanced folks asking beginers to relax,relax and relax.Very probably they are not able to do efficiently technique on very fresh beginers without badly hurting them, so they use this as excuse to drill a new aikidoka.These kind of ppl will never deeply understand aikido.

To do aikido effortless we must exceed physical dimension.To exceed physical dimension we must know our physical limits.To know physical limits we must use all our strenth. Sooner we know that ,faster we will move to effortless aikido. Very logical, isn't it?

regardz

Gil Gillespie
2nd October 2000, 05:41
Hmmmm, some twisted logic going on here. If you learn to put full muscle "strength" in technique, that becomes your permanent MO. How, when, do you "unlearn" and achieve the goals of misubi, marui (circles and spirals), and the real key, breaking your attacker's balance at deai? If you only muscle through attacks your technique becomes merely blasting through your partner and this is not aikido! We teach beginners to relax and back off from musclehead waza because they need to learn the above---- blend, join, don't block or stop uke's attack, but join with it and convert his attacking energy and movement into YOUR technique. This can't happen with muscle strength.

Kyu level Aikido is paired kata. Uke and nage have rehearsed roles to play. Nage learns to join with uke's attack; uke learns to join with nage's technique and take the appropriate ukemi. To many linear budoka this seems false, "giving it up," etc. But you're training your body, mind & spirit. POWER, the real key, comes LATER, after the Aikidoka masters hara. This takes years. If you think that you have to overpower everyone and then learn softness, then you should learn the hard linear fighting arts and THEN come to Aikido. If you start Aikido intending to be the musclehead you retard your training; you miss the whole point of the art.

Joseph Svinth
2nd October 2000, 09:05
Gil -- you have this backwards. You don't use more energy, you just learn to use less than your partner. (Unless it is your turn to apply the force, in which case you always apply a little more than your partner expects.)

Put another way, Thrower learns to use less and less energy from a lighter center while Assailant learns to apply more and more energy from a heavier center.

Done carefully, with supervision, and with a sense of play rather than contest, everyone learns the subtle little nuances, that the spine must be just so, that the foot angle is this and not that, and that what you thought was relaxed really is not.

The alternative is what you typically see at demonstrations, Thrower using force and Assailant taking dives.

szczepan
2nd October 2000, 14:22
Originally posted by Gil Gillespie
Hmmmm, some twisted logic going on here. If you learn to put full muscle "strength" in technique, that becomes your permanent MO. How, when, do you "unlearn" and achieve the goals of misubi, marui (circles and spirals), and the real key, breaking your attacker's balance at deai? If you only muscle through attacks your technique becomes merely blasting through your partner and this is not aikido!

oh no, no permanent at all!!! When you reach "ceiling " of your strength and can't go through you must find another solution.Once you feel "it" you don't want to go back to use only strength.
Without knowing and being at the limits of your strength how do you know that "it" is for real? Only real experience can certified and not words of your sensei or books.It's like with satori.

regardz

Mike Collins
2nd October 2000, 16:11
I submit that there are more than one ways to skin a mongrel dog with dandruff. It is at least vaguely possible that both ways of approaching technical expertise are effective.

I will tell you though, that when I meet one of those "strong young men" who insist on imposing their strength on their training partners, and they try that with me, they have a tendancy to get angry when I stand there and don't allow bad technique to be forced. It would be wise to let them know that there are some people who are simply stronger than them, and they will at that point need to try something different rather than the same old junk with more force.

In training with these "strong young men" (they come in female form as well), I find myself geting angry at their immediate judgement that the problem is their partner rather than their own weak technique and strong arms/shoulders/back.

I virtually never run into such force from people who are physically my superior. Why do you suppose that is? Is there a psychological dynamic at work with these "strong young men"?, or are bigger, stronger people simply better technicians?

When I get stopped in my tracks, it is almost never from a bigger, stronger partner, it is almost always from someone who simply understands the principles better than I do.

Dojorat
2nd October 2000, 16:42
Greetins,

Here's a concept that I've always found interesting in discussions of this sort.

Assume that you have the "strength" necessary to stand on your own two feet, extend your hand palm up and the ability to move body, arm and hand.

Next, assume a small bird were to land on your palm.

Theoretically, assuming you had the sensitivity to move your hand in exactly the right direction at the right time, if every time it pushed down to take off you moved your hand gently downward the appropriate distance, the bird could never take off from your hand. It would have nothing to resist it's initial push to get airborne. You could capture the bird without "holding" it at all.

I've always liked working with this ideal concept in my mind during practice. Without resistance, there is no need to force and strength requirements are minimized to those needed for stance, balance, and movement.

Nice Theory... now all I need is more practice.

Cheers,

TomW
3rd October 2000, 01:04
It has been my experience that strength and speed are useless with out precision, and the more precise we are, the less strength and speed are needed.

Just my experience.

Tom Wharton

rossl42
3rd October 2000, 10:29
I have read and re-read this thread & come to the following:

Someone who had always been told that a defining characteristic of aikido training is not to “muscle” any technique heard from a respected teacher that beginners in aikido would always use strength (read “more strength than is really required”). He wondered how (or if) the two ideas might be reconciled.

Some have suggested the less contentious notion that as one progresses & one’s technique improves, less “muscle” will be required to achieve successful applications of technique. Everyone seems to agree that they train toward the goal of achieving “effortless power”, but some approach this goal in different ways (and as Mike Collins suggests there is “more than one way to skin a mongrel dog with dandruff.”).

However, the gem, to me, in the above posts is Joe Svinth’s contribution. It summarizes, in a few words, the heart of what I was struggling towards. Thank you, Joe.

You really are a credit to this forum.

[Edited by rossl42 on 10-03-2000 at 04:32 AM]

gmellis
3rd October 2000, 11:53
i too find this to be an interesting post.
While i do not practice Aikido now, i did, and one thing i remember about the "Greats" was that, during the period of the hell dojo, the students of Ueshiba practiced for a ridiculous number of hours a day. (by the way, my teacher reprimanded me too for using strength and being too gung-ho, and i too got the nasty looks by the weeny arm-chair philosophers that despised sweating)That got me to thinking about how Ueshiba and his students were able to be so completely effective with the use of minimal strength. I also recollected accounts of other famous martial artist who were considered great, and it occured to me that many or maybe all of them worked out to a point where their strength would have had to have given out. Where they COULDN'T rely on strength becuase they had NONE LEFT to use, and so they had to adapt to this in whatever way they could (a.k.a. finding a way to execute technique without it). Just a thought. I read in some book how that to graduate from some old kendo school the teacher required them to go through an octagon for an entire day, and, whereas the attackers could exchange with fresh recruits, the tester had to stick it out for the entire test. And that if the student passed the test, they would have learned how to surpass their opponents by not needing to use strength, which was the true sign of a master kendoka. I wish i could remember where i saw that. Anyway, if anyone has experienced this i would be happy to hear about it. I always wondered if i had hit on something or not.

Dennis Hooker
3rd October 2000, 14:25
The overuse or physical force is counter to the basic principles of movement and blending in Aikido. Hard and strong and soft and week are many times seen as synonymous, but in this case it should not be. If muscular structure hampers fluidity of movement and gives a false since of indestructibility then it is detrimental to your Aikido growth. However if a strong and/or muscular body were capable of moving and blending with the efficiency required in Aikido then it would make since to have a strong well-defined body. I would certainly love to have one but Myasthenia Graves keeps me fighting just to maintain a functional one. When I’m functioning normally I lift weights just to be ready for the next crash which will come. In my many years of Aikido I have seen times when more strength would have came in real handy. Being weak as a kitten at times has forced me to a greater understanding of harmony of movement that might have been gained had a strong body been their to over shadow necessity of blending.

Don’t use the excuse that body development is detrimental to your Aikido just to be slovenly though. I have seen this happen. People that drink to much booze, and smoke to much, and eat to much and just live poor lifestyles use Aikido and an excuse to criticize those that take pride in their bodies and work hard to keep them selves healthy. Aikido is available to everyone and can be used to some extent by anyone. We should endeavor to be a physical fir as is necessary for us to function properly in Aikido. This is different for everyone.
Dennis Hooker
http://www.shindai.com

autrelle
3rd October 2000, 20:14
what happens if you are attacked while you are very ill?
what if you are attacked while injured?
what happens when you're injured and still being attacked?
then will muscular power be helpful?

RDeppe
3rd October 2000, 20:25
Might be... your fine motor skills will be greatly compromised as well. There is no magic out there that garrantees your safety just because you're responding with 'aikido'
(i hope this is addressing the assumtions in your post and isn't missing the point).

szczepan
4th October 2000, 02:15
Originally posted by autrelle
what happens if you are attacked while you are very ill?
what if you are attacked while injured?
what happens when you're injured and still being attacked?
then will muscular power be helpful?

That's depend how you practice in a dojo.You reaction depend if you train when you are ill, while you injured...etc.
If you not practice when you are ill, so in first situation you will be dead man.
If you not practice when you are injured, so in second situation you will be dead man.

You know why? because you fight as you practice...hehehe

......and Robert is right, better to have something to back up when all sophisticated and fancy techniques turn out to be inefficient....

regardz

autrelle
4th October 2000, 04:15
my point was that these are all likely situations where a person's muscular strength may fail them. then what?

MarkF
4th October 2000, 06:51
I won't copy Mr. Hooker's post because it it would be redundant. All budo comes down to the same basics, and, well, if you don't think so, then you probably are doing something wrong. Another quote from someone with more then 67 years in budo: "Use what you know." People as this one are still doing what they do because they haven't overdone their physical strength, but have relied on waza to do it for them. Sweating and working are not signs you are doing "it" wrong. It is when one tires toward the end of a day of training which is the enemy. "Using what you know" doesn't just apply to waza, it applies to doing what is right for you, and centering on that. If you tire from a two hour class or session, well, then something is wrong.

Mark

Joseph Svinth
4th October 2000, 10:41
The muscular strength required to keep the heart and lungs pumping appears useful, too, as by most accounts (but not all; see John Stevens for a dissenting viewpoint) even O-sensei's technique went downhill after he stopped applying muscular strength to those organs.

Meanwhile, if you're really worried about having a self-defense technique that works while doing the dead cockroach due to, say, spinal surgery, try this.

Rather than spending your couple hours a week doing aikido, instead go to an outdoor shooting range. There practice throwing five one-inch wooden blocks in the air with your left hand while with your right shooting them out of the sky with a .38 S&W Model 10. Do this until you are capable of doing it without a miss for 100 throws. (Not a really hard task, with practice; the record is way over 10,000 shots without a miss.)

Then practice doing the same from the holster. Once that gets easy with the strong hand, repeat with the weak side hand. And when that is easy, have someone else throw while you draw and fire with both hands. Finally, as that seems to be the issue, work up to where you can do it supine.

About a hundred thousand rounds and most anyone should have the knack, said both Annie Oakley and Ed McGivern.

Mike Collins
4th October 2000, 16:01
Thank You for a voice of sanity Joe.

Threads like this tend to get a bit diluted with extremes and hyperbole after a certain point.

Bottom line is this: Muscle has it's useful place. Some people are going to give it less weight than it deserves, some will give it more weight than it deserves.

People's training tends to look like their personality- mine is a bit lazy, for others it is a bit hyperactive. That seems appropriate. Budo is, I think, a mirror for us to hold up to ourselves so we can honestly evaluate what we see in the mirror and do something about the things we don't much like. If and when I overcome my propensity for sitting on my fat butt and not training hard, my training will, hopefully, begin to look a bit more moderate and balanced. Balance is what I think we're probably all working at, even if we aren't aware of it. Yes Szczepan, even you.

Simon Ford-Powell
10th October 2000, 23:12
everybody uses strength in Aikido as every martial art. How effectively they use it varies greatly. Correct technique and skillful co-ordination are the key issues. Strength is vital to any martial art - ask any good little'un who's met an equally good biggun. What should never occur is the physical state that restricts movement, commonly confused with strength, which is tension. Hence 'relax' always has been and always will be good advice.

Mike Collins
10th October 2000, 23:34
Simon, that's exactly what I meant to say. It's about letting go of what Bruce Lee called parasitic motion or parasitic tension, I don't remember which he called it, but the idea is about the same.

Simon Ford-Powell
10th October 2000, 23:41
to get philosophical, Mike. I believe Bruce Lee referred to tension as "living death" or something like that. Sounds right to me.

davoravo
19th October 2000, 22:17
This is an excellent thread and I would like to agree and disagree with everyone present. The paradox of Aikido.

In our dojo we are admonished to "Train with Sincerity". This is interpreted as Uke grasping very firmly (some days I have bruise marks on my forearms). Not to use strength against this leave's one flapping like a fish on the end of uke's grip (believe me I have tried).
A certain degree of strength is needed but I particularly like the point earlier to "use less energy" than uke. I am a lot smaller than the guys I train with and could not overcome their grip with strength alone even if I wanted. I need to use a combination of body position, technique and some power (the Yoshinkai I believe have an exercise for developing this power they call "elbow power"). Is learning to generate this power "correctly" strength or technique?

On the other hand techniques performed quickly against a rapidly moving uke (kokyu-nage) require no strength to perform. However training this way can lead to sloppy technique and poor balance. Excess speed can be used just as excess strength can to compensate for poor technique.

I think the admonition not to use strength is to avoid getting in to a wrestling situation. Aikido is not a wrestling art and aikidoka should change direction when they collide with their partners energy rather than trying to blast through.

Interestingly strength in the forearms seems to be good, but in the shoulders is bad. Any strength/tension that leads to rising of the elbows is bad. How about tension in the abdomen? I know Tohei sensei says to avoid it but I have found this leads to excessive lordosis in the lower spine (duck posture).

R Erman
28th October 2000, 21:15
Hi folks,

This is a good thread. There seems to be alot of good points by both sides. I agree that it takes time, and there are no shortcuts.

I remember Steve Hayes(ninpo) saying that training fits, roughly, into 3 phases. When young it is more natural to try to use strength and speed to attain victory. When into middle years perfection of technique, timing, and distancing become the keys to winning. And late in life, mastering strategy will leave you the victor. I liked this statement.

Another point is this: One of the things that separates modern and traditional is the emphasis on strength. Those of us who study arts based on Japan's feudal warrior usually train with the idea that the opponent is stronger, faster, better armed...etc. Modern arts emphasize trying to be stronger, faster, better equiped...etc. The difference is in the degree of emphasis. Obviously if I assume my opponent is stronger, that doesn't mean that I shouldn't try to maintain a strong healthy body, it menas that strength shouldn't be the primary focus of my training.

Also, as far as being "stuck" in strength based technique, that will only happen if you have no, or a poor, instructor. It is the teacher's job to help you continually improve with mechanics, ki, timing, distancing. If your teacher does this, you won't get stuck, unless you aren't receptive to the instruction. I feel that you need strength, especially in the beginning. Their aren't too many cooperative uke in the street. But, as others have said, having strength now will allow you to stick in there untill you get to the point in development where you don't need it(or at least not nearly as much).

Dream True,

George Ledyard
29th October 2000, 16:01
Originally posted by thebrutto
Since my first day on the mat people have always told me "don't use strength/muscle when executing the technique". On certain levels I agree with this but on others I find it difficult to accept. On several occasions I have practiced with people who couldn't do the technique through proper form so they just used a little muscle and were able to throw me. Last weekend at a seminar I attended the sensei said "It is ridiculous to think that you don't have to use strength to do a technique when just starting out. You have to use strength until you know how to perform the technique effectively, then you can do it without strength".

I would really like to hear what people think about this. What role does strength play in Aikido?

Thank you for your time.

No one in Aikido originally said that being strong wasn't important. O-Sensei never let an opportunity go by to develop his body. (He had special custom iron tools made so that when he gardened he was getting more of a workout; quite the opposite of today's pay extra for the titanium ultra light model) That noted, the only proper way to utilze energy in Aikido is with no tension. And you can't get there by using tension. Techniques can be done on a limiuted level by using strength and mechanics. But the student who does this gets stuck at a certain point and can not progress further. Yamaguchi Sensei said that technique should not require more force than the weight of your arms resting om your partner. He further stated that the limiting factor was the unwillingness of most people to be patient enough to put up with a long period of failure until the techniques begin to work. We are too impatient and want the techiques to work right away.