Hand Throws

[camerton]

I have been trying hand throws in my randori they seem to be working ok like uki otoshi but the standing one also sumi otoshi anyone got any tips or variations they can give. thanks

martin penrice

[dakotajudo]

Originally posted by camerton
I have been trying hand throws in my randori they seem to be working ok like uki otoshi but the standing one also sumi otoshi anyone got any tips or variations they can give. thanks

martin penrice

Go practice in an aikido dojo.

A lot of the kokyu-nage (breath throw) are very similar to judo's kuki-nage (air throw - sometimes a synonym for sumi-otoshi, or Mifune's tai-otoshi).

I got into a discussion on Aikido-L, whether judo- aikido same-same. Went 'round and 'round on the similarities between kokyus and kukis. Further developed that theory in class.

Went to a tournament about that time; ended up scoring two ippons, both on yoko-otoshi that was largely a hand technique. (I suppose if I wasn't in such a hurry to go into matwork I could have finished in sumi-otoshi instead, but I'll never know).

Anyway, aikido helped me.

[camerton]

o Peter I was talking to a aikido guy and he said the same as you about the throws being similer. I do like the mifune taiotoshi Igot that throw out of Kodokan judo book I think Iwill visit a aikido club to see if i can learn anything


Martin P

[bripley]

I think that it was Tomiki that said that Aikido and Judo are the same thing, the only difference is the Mai.

[jeffbruner]

for those of us who are mere judoka thugs, could you please explain Mai?

And was Tomiki the one who added some randori into Aikido?

Thanks,

[Walker]

He means distance. For Tomiki sensei aikido was judo at a distance.

[Tobikomi]

Originally posted by dakotajudo
Go practice in an aikido dojo.

It’s not quite as easy as it sounds; the taisabaki of Judo is very different to Aikido. You will need to practice for about a year before you feel comfortable and are able to perform Kokyu-Nage on an unwilling partner. When you can however it is very rewarding to see their faces as they fly through the air. Ray.

[MarkF]

Hi Ray Brown (you have a famous name, you know),

Well, I think the point would be randori, each using what they do.

I used to "spar" with some shorin-ryu karatedoka when I was much younger, but other than getting slapped a few times, a bloody nose, not to mention some nice bruises, it just wasn't enough to keep me outside.

Of course, they weren't really serious, except in comparing notes, but it was fun. Ma-ai generally does mean distance, but also includes your surroundings in the real world, "what can I use as a weapon if I move him over here, what can I put in my hand to use now, just what are the surroundings and how much room do I have to move? If he pulls a weapon just where should I bow out and escape the thing?"

Truthfully, I don't see that much difference between the two. The both are tai-jutsu grappling sciences, with the exception of groundwork, they both can match up pretty well, and kokyunage? That's what Tohei called Kyuzo Mifune's "air throws." While Mifune was more grounded in his ability, that is where the term comes, while not all of his air throws still exist, many of them do, including tai otoshi.

Strip them down of all the outer packaging, and they are the same thing, though an agreement on ma-ai may be necessary.


Mark

[Mekugi]

Originally posted by Walker
He means distance. For Tomiki sensei aikido was judo at a distance.

Doug,

I hafta get you a copy of this picture I have seen of Tomiki perfoming a throw. He is literally "hovering" off the ground while the uke is landing flat on his back. Simply amazing.

I dunno if Tomiki thought that Aikido was Judo at a distance or not, but from what I have read of his work he totally thought the same principles were at play in each, and they could be taught with the same frame of mind.

Whatcha think?
-R

[Mekugi]

For everyone wondering what I am talking about when I said "Tomiki's work":
Fundamental Principles of Judo (http://www.judoinfo.com/tomiki.htm)

Here is a review of the book:

Judo With Aikido (http://www.bestjudo.com/brjudoaikido.shtml)


-R

[Walker]

This may be serious thread drift, but I think Tomiki would be one to look at for that theory. He had the experience in both to speak about such things. I have to say that seeing Chuck Clark really gave me an example of how the two can intersect.

That said I think there are directions in the aiki style arts (some aikido, Daito ryu etc.) that are apart and different from judo and might be incompatable or hinder understanding of one or the other. I don’t have Tomiki’s experience, but his experience may also have colored his understanding of the aiki arts.

So Russ, still having fun over there?

[Mekugi]

Hi again Doug!

Thanks for your insight. I am, myself, unable to make a clear distinction of "what is and isn't" because of lack of experience, so bear with me. What I experience in the Tomiki Aikido done at the Seikiryukan appears to be principles of the same ilk in Judo and Aikido. Even though there may be a dichotomy in teaching, are essentially the same (but different). In te-waza, same formula would apply as it does to everything else- just in a different form. I realize that this probably makes no sense at all, post typing.

I am having an outstanding time here! You should make the trip over mayann! Come down to the big-to-do with Tim this year, if you are able!

-R



Originally posted by Walker
This may be serious thread drift, but I think Tomiki would be one to look at for that theory. He had the experience in both to speak about such things. I have to say that seeing Chuck Clark really gave me an example of how the two can intersect.

That said I think there are directions in the aiki style arts (some aikido, Daito ryu etc.) that are apart and different from judo and might be incompatable or hinder understanding of one or the other. I don’t have Tomiki’s experience, but his experience may also have colored his understanding of the aiki arts.

So Russ, still having fun over there?