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Markaso
29th August 2003, 00:23
Since I am a Karate-ka I chose to post here. This may be a good topic for the members forum but I thought that I would give the idea a go here first. You see, I have been very lucky to be studying here in Japan and to have and to have had, in my opinion, great teachers. Many friends of mine in the States and in Japan have gone their own route and opened Dojos, and said to me with my knowledge and years in, I should do the same.


Although I have taught for one of my Sensei and am currently teaching at a university I have always looked at my Sensei as the level I should be or strive for in order to have my own Dojo. I’ve also felt that no matter how long I practice I will always be a student. To accept being called a teacher by other Karate-ka or to lay claim to being a teacher or to have my own Dojo is a very hard step to make in my mind. Soooooooo .........



For all of you teachers , teacher/students, student/teachers......

When,or at what level did you achieve, did you feel the time was right to strike out on your own and create,open,start your own Dojo and pass on the philosophies,that were passed down to you?

MarkF
29th August 2003, 08:07
The true sensei will strive to make his students better than s/he could ever be while that should also be for what students strive, to be better than one's teacher, but not forgetting from where it comes, or where it goes, concerning the teacher.

Far too many feel the instructor always remains superior. If this were true there wouldn't be much advancement. If you feel you can communicate with your teacher, you should ask for this advice there. If you feel you cannot, then you will always be the student in the shadow of his teacher. Always striving to learn more is the goal, but no one is so perfect therefore you will naturally be a student forever.

If you feel you can pass on what you have learned and you feel others would benefit from your ideas a truthful teacher will tell you whether you have reached that level. It isn't to be taken lightly. On the other hand, Einstein said: "I am not so special, I am only intensely curious."

This is IMO, and not having studied karate, there may be distinctly different times when one is ready to do this, so take it with a salt lick.


Mark

Markaso
29th August 2003, 11:06
Mr. Feigenbaum

A very interesting perspective..... Yes, I can talk to my Sensei and we all have a very good report with eachother....... it may just be with in me. But also here in Japan it is not really something that you go up to your Sensei and ask.


Yeah maybe it is just with in me.

MarkF
30th August 2003, 09:58
Mark, please call me Mark. Some of my students call me Mr., but even then I feel older when they do.

I'm not a karateka, most of the little exposure I've had comes from friends or from seminars. That was a little bit over the top when I reread it just now, but it truly may be different. Time, relationship, type of relationship outside the dojo, all play into it. I taught classes for many years under my teachers and didn't feel I was ready until I left the big city for a much smaller big city where there was little judo being taught, so I thought it would be appropriate. My teacher passed away just after I took over an established program. That didn't work out, nor did the next one.

After that, I finally got some backing and started my own program in late 1989 or 1990. It seems to be working now just fine.

I based this on my experience with judo which is usually not so very specific, but there are some rules, such as the need for a supervisor under the grade of sandan. Other than that, if one has the experience, some successes, and insurance and registration with one of three national bodies, that is about it. I suggested asking your teacher, not to ask if you were good enough at what you do (I assume you are because you are thinking about teaching which will be yours), but whether or not he thinks you would be sucessful at teaching others on your own.

The rest is conjecture and opinion based on my opinions of the role of the teacher to the student and vice versa, nothing else.

Anyway, meditate on it some more, then see where you stand. I took over programs of teachers who were well liked. I found I needed to start with a small base of students from the beginning. That worked out and I now have a full house (not that many but as many as I feel I can handle, that and because insurance goes up big time with more students.;) ).

I won't pretend it isn't different on my side of the fence, I'm sure it is, but I wish you good luck in whatever you do from here on out.


Regards,

Mark

Markaso
2nd September 2003, 17:11
Originally posted by MarkF
Mark, please call me Mark. Some of my students call me Mr., but even then I feel older when they do.


First I do not know you well enough to just call you Mark. Never met you and I was always taught to respect the ones you do not know. So sorry if this makes you feel old. But for now, If you do not mind it will be Mr.Feigenbaum. Sorry :smilejapa




Originally posted by MarkF
I suggested asking your teacher, not to ask if you were good enough at what you do (I assume you are because you are thinking about teaching which will be yours), but whether or not he thinks you would be sucessful at teaching others on your own.

As I said before this is not really a subject that is really asked here or talked about in Japan. Or I might add it may be but I do not feel it is a subject to discuss with ones Sensei. There may be a way but I have not learned it yet.

I really only brought this up as I have not seen this subject,in this manner, discussed here. I am happy at this junction where I am. I know I have much to learn from many people and I love learning. I just wanted to know how others felt.




Originally posted by MarkF
I wish you good luck in whatever you do from here on out.


Regards,

Mark



Thanks! :toast:

gmanry
2nd September 2003, 17:52
Mr. Porsselius,

This also has been a question that I have struggled with for quite a few years. The answer came when I found that I was able to competently answer the questions of juniors or friends from other arts. Not that my answers were absolutely correct, but more often then not what I said had weight and they were able to take what I said and work it into what they needed. I came to the conclusion that this is what an instructor needs to be able to do. Give the student information that works for them AND leads them to push themselves further.

In terms of generalities, 10 years of solid work should be able to produce a competent teacher in Karate. Not that you are the indisputable authority or anything at that time, but your basics should be polished AND understood so that you can then give them to others. A teacher is a giver of gifts.

I make sure, before I take on a new batch of students that I spend some serious time on the most fundamental elements of my movement. I am getting ready to open new classes in my new hometown, and I am spending a lot of time on the basics, because that is what I will be showing. As long as I really lay a proper foundation, everything else will follow out of that.

Also, at 10 years/ 3rd. dan, etc. a student needs to have new people with which to experiment. That is why most of the serious teachers I know became teachers, it wasn't just to sit on the mountain and dispense wisdom, it was so they could keep growing. Some things you can only learn when you are teaching others. It is the other side of the looking glass.

Quite frankly most of what exists out there is utter garbage, so the very fact that you have these questions shows that you aren't one of the 2 year shodans ready to open the kuhrotty studio.

At some point you have to accept that you have something to offer. I see too many talented people who live in the shadows of their seniors. Respect for seniors is a good thing, but not when it starts affected your own sense of self-worth. Be confident, as you may already know, half the battle for looking competent is being the one who is talking. People give you the benefit of the doubt when you are at the front of the room and this gives new instructors the space they need to get their footing. Teach honestly, and say you don't know when you don't know something.

Now, you are in Japan and studying in your teacher's dojo. I can see your hesitation to open your own. First, ask yourself if you are truly ready to run your own SCHOOL. This is different from teaching your own classes, and it is also where many would be Sensei fail miserably. Rent, insurance, utilities, managing the checkbook, etc. all business stuff, particularly in an urban setting.

If your teacher has a shibu that may need more attention, it may be worth your while to approach him about this. He could use the help, you could use the experience out of the nest, so to speak. He could check in and not feel like you are jilting him. This is just a suggestion. Hope this helps.

Markaso
2nd September 2003, 18:19
Mr. Manry

Well said and many good points. :toast:

Not really looking at this time(as I said before) to open my own Dojo. Been an assistant instructor for my present Sensei for the last 2,and a little over,years (when I got my 4th). Still like it when he teaches me. Had my own classes,as well as being a junior teacher so to speak, under my former Sensei for about 10 years.


When I go back to Kyoto my Sensei likes it when I take over the class as he has time to teach some of the other students personally. At thee end he gives some of my Kata the once over and corrects, I like that time.


When I conducted my first test at the university my former Sensei came and helped judge. My present Sensei was busy that day but came 2 weeks later to help,as he said , to teach the class.


Both have been very helpful.

Your ideas do help Thanks! But it will be some time before I feel that I am ready .



By the way it is Posselius.

Mike Williams
2nd September 2003, 18:45
Originally posted by Markaso
First I do not know you well enough to just call you Mark. Never met you and I was always taught to respect the ones you do not know. So sorry if this makes you feel old. But for now, If you do not mind it will be Mr.Feigenbaum. Sorry :smilejapa

Forgive the off-topic intrusion, but if the person you do not know has asked that you call him by his first name, then surely the polite thing to do would be to respect his wishes?

Mr. Posselius, if you met me face-to-face and I said "please, call me Mike", would you carry on addressing me as Mr. Williams?

The nature of e-budo conversation (and internet communication generally) is relatively informal. While this may go against what you have been taught is 'correct' for written communication, I feel that in terms of etiquette it is best to adopt the prevailing conventions. Treat e-budo as if it was a verbal exchange, and you'd be about right.

:smilejapa

Cheers,

Mike (just Mike)

PS: As far as your question goes, it's a good one. Mark & Glenn's answers were superb, but I hope some other folk will chime in with their experiences.

gmanry
2nd September 2003, 18:46
Sorry for the bad spelling, I think I got fat finger disease on that one.

Well, obviously, you have been training quite long enough. You have also helped with clubs and such. So, when the time comes you will know it.

It is a lot of responsibility, as you well know. If you personally don't feel you are comfortable with it, then don't rush in. However, just remember that all your instructors came from where you are now.

Good luck!

Markaso
2nd September 2003, 23:20
Originally posted by Mike Williams
Forgive the off-topic intrusion, but if the person you do not know has asked that you call him by his first name, then surely the polite thing to do would be to respect his wishes?


Yes, you could look at it that way, but I still have not met him. No disrespect intended.




Originally posted by Mike Williams

Mr. Posselius, if you met me face-to-face and I said "please, call me Mike", would you carry on addressing me as Mr. Williams?

Of course not. I would address you as you would have asked as at that point I would have already met you.



Originally posted by Mike Williams
The nature of e-budo conversation (and internet communication generally) is relatively informal. While this may go against what you have been taught is 'correct' for written communication


It has been taught to me in both the written and the verbal. So the rspectfullness that I display towards other E-budo members would be done both in the written and verbal. I understand your point but It is difficult to go against what I know and do.



Originally posted by Mike Williams


Yep, I agree that it is pretty informal here but...........





Originally posted by Mike Williams
[B
PS: As far as your question goes, it's a good one. Mark & Glenn's answers were superb, but I hope some other folk will chime in with their experiences.



Yes it would be nice to hear from the others about their experiences and feelings.

Mike Williams
3rd September 2003, 10:16
Sorry - I didn't mean to be rude. Your post just surprised me that's all.

Given the seniority of many people here (in terms of experience, age, rank) to myself - I would probably be more polite if I met them face to face.

Aah, the joys of keyboard-warriorship... :D

Cheers,

Mike

Markaso
3rd September 2003, 14:52
Originally posted by Mike Williams
Sorry - I didn't mean to be rude.

No Rudeness taken or felt. There are always to sides of a fence and politeness and respect to others should be observed whether your on this side or the other. Mind you some do not deserve it but I have to meet them first.

Bustillo, A.
3rd September 2003, 16:18
We don't need to wait to reach our instructor's level to be qualified to teach and open a dojo.

The teacher can be an example of a certain technical standard, however, people have different strengths and weaknesess so comparing may not be the best way to gauge.

Eithr way, at some point, hopefully we surpass our instructors.

hector gomez
4th September 2003, 16:21
Antonio,

In your case grasshopper,you are sometimes considered an ill advised eclectic bastard,so by most standards you will probably never be accepted into teaching the masses,only the enlightened few.:eek:


Hector Gomez

monkeyboy_ssj
4th September 2003, 16:41
Originally posted by Mike Williams


Cheers,

Mike (just Mike)

.

Ok Mr. Williams :P

Markaso
4th September 2003, 17:30
Originally posted by Bustillo, A.
We don't need to wait to reach our instructor's level to be qualified to teach and open a dojo.

Not that I am waiting to reach my Sensei's level. Not sure that I could. I am just doing the best I can at the moment. The true compitition is with-in.

[
QUOTE]Originally posted by Bustillo, A.

The teacher can be an example of a certain technical standard, however, people have different strengths and weaknesess so comparing may not be the best way to gauge.
[/QUOTE]

Agree with the first part but I am still looking with in.

Mr. Bustillo

Some good points for some.:toast:

RobertW
4th September 2003, 18:21
Mark,

I had told my teacher long before that I would open a Dojo one day. One day he came up to me and said "you having the good skill. You should making a Dojo." so I waited awhile and started from there.

:p

Bustillo, A.
4th September 2003, 18:58
Originally posted by hector gomez
Antonio,

In your case grasshopper,you are sometimes considered an ill advised eclectic bastard,so by most standards you will probably never be accepted into teaching the masses,only the enlightened few.:eek:
Hector Gomez

Master Po-sum advises a little more formality when addressing someone

Please say,

'Mister' eccletic bastard

CEB
4th September 2003, 19:40
Speaking of the Old monk, Gene's 7 days in time-out should be up today. :)

Goju Man
4th September 2003, 22:11
Speaking of the Old monk, Gene's 7 days in time-out should be up today.
He's probably out meditating with the possum.:D

Anonio, Kahuna, Mr. Eclectic Bastard, SFA President, when is the arroz con pollo?:p

CEB
4th September 2003, 22:27
I thought Mike was President.

Bustillo, A.
4th September 2003, 22:31
Originally posted by Goju Man
He's probably out meditating with the possum.:D

Anonio, Kahuna, Mr. Eclectic Bastard, SFA President, when is the arroz con pollo?:p



soon my po-sun, soon.

gmanry
4th September 2003, 22:37
Gene got suspended? When did that happen? Man, take a break and see what happens.

CEB
4th September 2003, 22:56
August 27 or August 28. Whenever John found all the nudie pictures he posted on Baffling Budo.

That celibate monk life style that old masters like him have to lead kind of makes it hard to control certain urges sometimes I guess. I guess PO needs SUM.
:laugh:

Markaso
5th September 2003, 01:08
To all who are discussing this Possun thing.

I was very puzzled about this Possum thing until I went back and read the other threads. Still a little bit puzzled but not as much as I was.
It is very interesting to me as I remember a way back when,when there was no internet as we know it today. No www as we know it and the only computers were in the hands of the goverment and if your school had a terminal it was a paper roll fed machine that sounded like a machine gun going off when you received something, yeah the old telex.
Anyway back to the point. One of my many nicknames derived from my sir name was Possum. So it was kind of cool to know that there was a Kata bearing my name ........:D

CEB
5th September 2003, 15:15
Very very advanced kata it is. Its practice is derived from the ancient deadly art of Sinanju.

larsen_huw
5th September 2003, 15:20
Originally posted by CEB
Very very advanced kata it is.

Looks like someone's been listening to Yoda too much!

Just by rearranging words in sentance talk copious amounts of b*ll*cks one can.

:D

CEB
5th September 2003, 17:08
Who in the hell is Yoda?

Markaso
7th September 2003, 02:56
Originally posted by CEB
Who in the hell is Yoda?



Out to the movies one goes not I think .

Either that or tries to pull fast one he does I think.

CEB
7th September 2003, 21:38
Originally posted by Markaso
Out to the movies one goes not I think .

Either that or tries to pull fast one he does I think.


Not I.

Amish are not supposed to go to movies and and stuff like that.

:)