Injuries

[Joseph Svinth]

Visit the Center for Disease Control site http://www.cdc.gov/safeusa/sports/martial.htm , and you learn that: "The rate of injury for judo appears to be higher than that for karate or taekwondo. In judo, sprains are most common, accounting for more than half of the injuries in the sport. Dislocations and fractures are also common. As many as half of all players in karate tournaments suffer injuries, including contusions (bruises), lacerations (cuts), and hand and finger fractures. Among taekwondo competitors, fractures are the most common injury. During one large international full-contact taekwondo tournament, 54 percent of the injuries that were treated in a local emergency department were fractures."

[John Lindsey]

Well, I wonder if insurance companies will use this data to raise the rates for Judo clubs.

Way back when I was 6 years old and doing Judo, I remember that I broke the arm of one of my fellow Judoka, but I can't recall how.

[Jeff Cook]

Joe,

I would also have to rank judo at the top of the list for degenerative disease of the knees and karate at the top for degeneration of the elbows and shoulders from throwing unloaded techniques.

I base this upon my own observations. What are your observations and/or statistical data?

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[Kolschey]

Certainly I would attribute one of my injuries to my previous practice of Karate. Having been instructed to throw a front/side thrust kick with " full speed, full power", I became aware of an excruciating pain in my left knee as the joint hyperextended. It still gives me some grief in rainy weather.
Many people I have trained in Aikido with have come into the art because they thought it would be gentler than the percussive arts which they previously studied. Ah well, life is rather ironic...

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Krzysztof M. Mathews
" For I am the Cat who walks by himself, and all places are alike to me"
-Rudyard Kipling

[MarkF]

>>Most martial arts are high-action, high-energy activities that can help build strength, speed, flexibility, and agility. But they can also cause injuries if participants perform moves improperly or fail to use safety equipment<<

This is the first paragraph on the page and in this one can see the machismo (machisma) of MA. While I would say, in my experience, that injuries occur much more frequently in tournments, the most serious I've seen have happened in the kojo, at least to me. Before I was fifteen, I had broken my ankle, entered shiai three weeks after the cast came off instead of the three months the doctor said, broken my nose and ribs, dislocated ribs and fingers, sprained the same ankle numerous times, and my left foot is slightly smaller than my right because of it.

So what's the point? Too many think injuries to be "glamourous," and it is true about blood clots and fractured tracheas because, either, the participant is not trained correctly and safely, the idea of a choke has always been about cutting off oxygen to the brain instead of pressure to the trachea, and very poorly trained officals and undertrained, and overtly proud teachers who tend to push these type of things "as badges of courage." This is not what it was intended, but I still think the player who does the damage, as in strangulation, has as much responsibility as the shimban to know when it is time to stop, and it has only gotten worse over the years. There are frightfully inadaquate teachers and this is probably the foremost problem. Then we have rules in the tournaments for "passivity" which encourages the player to do more to win. One can even receive direct "hansokumake (banishment)"
from the competition for this "grave error."

On the lighter side, one man complained about another player throwing up on the mat and demanded to know if this person would receive direct hansokumake. Personally, I think he wins!



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Mark F. Feigenbaum

[Joseph Svinth]

Jeff --

I don't know about degenerative impacts, but I have seen medical data suggesting that wrestling causes more serious knee injuries per capita (about 8%) than any other sport, and I'd assume judo is included here.

For broken hands, hockey was worst. (Sometimes hockey games break out at the fights, you know.)

Boxing is a quick path to broken noses and eye injuries, the latter mostly from thumbing. (Brain damage is a separate and much less quantifiable issue.)

For fatalities, rodeo is way, way up there -- Oklahoma alone has more deaths per year from falling off four-legged critters than the world ever had in a year from boxing fatalities.

Speaking of falling off steers, there is a bull-riding club on Okinawa, but it costs about $20 a ride.

I have the data someplace, and next time I see it if I remember I'll post it.

[ss29515]

Well, from my own experiences, I've injured my knees and ribs practicing judo. I've seen neck, knee and elbow injuries in tournaments. I'd have to say judo is much harder on the body than either karate or aikido.

mel

[Neil Hawkins]

Well, I had a lot of injuries but surprisingly few during MA's. The usual fingers and toes, and a collar bone from a bad fall (notice I didn't say bad throw!) and once a busted nose from poor sabaki.

I have however agravated injuries caused by other means. Both my knees are shot now, originally a motorbike injury, redamaged by parachuting whilst in the military, they are constantly being twisted and streched. A physiotherapist once told me they felt like a bag of gravel.

MA's do cause injuries but so does football and who'd want to play that? I'm willing to put up with the odd injury, I just have to remember to put my tsuba back on my bokken, god that hurts! http://216.10.1.92/ubb/smile.gif

Regards
Neil

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The one thing that must be learnt, but cannot be taught is understanding.

[George Kohler]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Neil Hawkins:
redamaged by parachuting whilst in the military, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Neil,

I have to say that if I had anymore of the same jump I had at Shoal Water Bay Training Area, I would probably have bad knees too. 30 knots winds was a little overboard http://216.10.1.92/ubb/smile.gif Trained with 2RAR in 97.

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George Kohler
Genbukan/KJJR
Kusakage Dojo-cho

[MarkF]

Neil,
I noticed you didn't say bad throw. It was the same with me. A bad habit of inproper foot placement had me breaking my ankle. Besides, there are no good falls! http://216.10.1.92/ubb/wink.gif



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Mark F. Feigenbaum

[Neil Hawkins]

I didn't mean to turn this into a war story forum, but hey it's heading that way, so...

Mark, my problem was (and is) my toes, the big one keeps getting caught between tatami and so sticks out at a funny angle. I've told the kids in class I used to have an extra toe in the gap (quite considerable) but had it removed so I can climb ropes like a monkey. They think it's funny.

George, yes memories of shoalwater bay, disliked the place immensly. Most of the time I was up in the NT, did some major exercises up there over the years with all sorts of 'foreigners', Marines, Rangers, NZSAS, 21 & 23 SAS from the UK, all good fun.

My 'chute problem stemmed from a sport rig, flaring into a stiff breeze, which decided to totally die off at about 30 feet. I hit the ground hard and my knees went pop!

Anyway thems the breaks (pardon the pun!), I have re-damaged the knee, doing MA's a couple of times, twisting in a funny direction but still train. The one benefit is I can tell when it's going to rain with 85% accuracy!

Neil

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The one thing that must be learnt, but cannot be taught is understanding.

[MarkF]

I would say rib injuries are the most common in judo, and probably most MA. It is quite difficult to move the body out of the way. I also broke my nose in a judo tournament. I received that one by being thrown on my face! C'mon, you guys! Who hasn't been in that position in shiai when being thrown for ippon just wasn't on your menu? http://216.10.1.92/ubb/wink.gif



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Mark F. Feigenbaum

[Russman]

Wow! Blood Clots to the brain, long term disability, loos of verbal ability, can be fatal.

Man if it weren't for the fact that I know almost one hundred Judoka, and none of them has ever witnessed this I would be terrified by these chokes.

Has anyone ever witnessed this fenom.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joseph Svinth:
Visit the Center for Disease Control site http://www.cdc.gov/safeusa/sports/martial.htm , and you learn that: "The rate of injury for judo appears to be higher than that for karate or taekwondo. In judo, sprains are most common, accounting for more than half of the injuries in the sport. Dislocations and fractures are also common. As many as half of all players in karate tournaments suffer injuries, including contusions (bruises), lacerations (cuts), and hand and finger fractures. Among taekwondo competitors, fractures are the most common injury. During one large international full-contact taekwondo tournament, 54 percent of the injuries that were treated in a local emergency department were fractures."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>




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Russ Little
Kirkwood Judo Club
St. Louis

[Joseph Svinth]

There was a kid in Tacoma about ten years ago who got his neck broken at a judo tournament; I know his instructor, and the details appeared in the local newspapers. A friend who has done judo and karate in Japan and Europe since the 1950s has broken four toes, five fingers, the right arm, the left shoulder worn out and the right almost worn out, two broken vertebrae in the cervical spine and problems with missing cartilege in the lower spine. Furthermore, he's had two concussions, three broken noses, two broken medial meniscuses in the right knee, and two broken ribs. This is of course in addition to various wounds received while serving in the infantry in Korea.

For similar data on collegiate taekwondo, try Willy Pieter and Dennis R. Taaffe. "The Oregon Taekwondo Research Project: Results and Recommendations," Journal of Asian Martial Arts, 1:1, 1992.

In boxing, there were an average of about 12 deaths per year throughout the 20th century. Most deaths came during competition rather than training, and common causes included hitting one's head on unpadded ropes, turnbuckles, or floors.

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Joe
http://ejmas.com

[MarkF]

The more things change, the more they stay the same. There are throws in which the desired result is a broken neck. Throws, as such, have been banned, but the worst which will happen is banishment from the shiai. I will have to look, but there were two broken necks suffered by judoka, I believe, in Atlanta in high school programs.

BTW: It seems that a judo player, utilizing a throw learned from another who was participating in a UFC fighting contest, utilized a throw which supposedly had been banned by the IJF. In April of this year, in Centerville, Virginia, a young man suffered permanent brain injury by being thrown deliberately on his head. He has also suffered a complete amnesia from all events in his life before the age of nine. The judge ruled, however, that the throw was in line with the federation's guidelines on such technique. The player was awarded the match, apparently winning a championship of the shiai.

Another man in Rome in April, 2000 received a broken neck, but was lucky in that surgery corrected the fracture.


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Mark F. Feigenbaum

[This message has been edited by MarkF (edited 06-16-2000).]

While it may be somewhat of an urban legend, wasn't there a woman who suffered a permanent spinal injury a couple of years ago? As I recall, she was preparing to do a forward ukemi and someone pushed her from behind, either accidentally or to help her forward roll. She landed on her head and bent her neck backwards, apparently fracturing the spine. Then, there's always the story about the guy doing the head-to-the-mat uchimata and uke blocked it by moving his hips forward. The result was instantaneous death.

I remember a statistics sheet issued by the Olympic committee many years ago. Judo injuries were statistically just behind ping-pong. I suspect it was more of a reporting problem. Although ping-pong players can be a rowdy bunch and they are armed with paddles, I just can't believe it's a rougher sport.

Oh well, you can always break your neck getting out of bed, too.

Sincerely,

Don "Want to compare injury stories?" Cunningham

[MarkF]

Don,
I think we've gone through that last summer, but I haven't had any injuries as of late. I am too busy treating the ones I got decades ago http://216.10.1.92/ubb/wink.gif

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Mark F. Feigenbaum

[Russman]

Congratulations to fellow list member Allen Schmitt-Gordon.

Not only was he a concerned about the inacurracy, and inequity of the CDC bulliten, but he was also motivated enough to do something about it.

As a result of Allen's, work and dilligence, this injustice has been corrected. This goes to prove that if you are properly prepared, and right you can fight city hall.

Russ Little
Kirkwood Judo Club, St. Louis
http://www.kirkwoodjudo.org




I received a reply from the CDC (see below) to which I responded as follows:

Allen

"Allen R. Schmitt-Gordon" wrote:

> Ms Craft,
>
> Thank you for your prompt reply. There is still an issue about the injury rate
> of the various martial arts. You write:
>
> "The rate of injury for judo appears to be higher than that for karate or
> taekwondo. In judo, sprains are most common, accounting for more than half of
> the injuries in the sport. Dislocations and fractures are also common. As many
> as half of all players in karate tournaments suffer injuries, including
> contusions (bruises), lacerations (cuts), and hand and finger fractures."
>
> The comparison here is not right. I have never seen any judo tournament, where
> hundreds of athletes compete multiple times, in which anywhere near half of the
> competitors suffer injuries, such as you report for karate tournaments. There
> are very few injuries in judo tournaments which require follow up attention by a
> medical professional. Thus, I find it extremely difficult to believe that the
> injury rate is greater for judo than for other martial arts. Again, it is not
> clear if you are referring to the total number of injuries or the number of
> injuries relative to the number of participants. In my experience, dislocations
> and fractures are not common. Before these statements can be made, the data, if
> available, needs to be examined and presented. Without such data, such
> statements are misleading at best. Perhaps a more appropriate statement might
> be that sprains, dislocations and fractures can occur. In every sanctioned
> tournament and in most judo clubs, participants (inlcuding parents and
> guardians) sign waivers informing the participants of the potential risks that
> are inherent in judo as well as other contact sports, including martial art.
>
> I believe that some of the appropriate documentation can be obtained from Dr.
> Koiwai and Dr. Matsumoto, or the offices of the national organizations, if
> required. Other sources would be the Internation Judo Federation and the
> Olympic Training Center, since both Tae Kwon Do and Judo are Olympic sports.
>
> Thank you again for your reply and willingness to make the necessary changes.
>
> Allen Schmitt-Gordon, Ph.D.
>
> "Craft, Carole" wrote:
>
> > Dr. Schmitt-Gordon,
> >
> > I was asked to respond to your June 15 email in which you addressed
> > inaccuracies relating to judo in our martial arts fact sheet. We have
> > researched the topic further and decided to delete the statement about blood
> > clots being caused by choke holds. (The study on which that statement was
> > based was reported in a Japanese journal; we could find no U.S. studies
> > linking judo to blood clots). We have also revised the information relating
> > to memory loss and deaths associated with choke holds/strangulation and
> > cited additional references to support those statements.
> >
> > Thank you for bringing this issue to our attention. The revised fact sheet
> > (attached) should appear on the SafeUSA web site in a few days.
> > <<MARTARTS.WPD>>
> > Carole Craft, writer-editor
> > CDC National Center for Injury Prevention and Control
> > CXL9@cdc.gov
> >
> > Carole Craft, writer-editor
> > CDC National Center for Injury Prevention and Control
> > 4770 Buford Hwy, NE, K65
> > Atlanta, GA 30341-3717
> > 770-488-1661
> > 770-488-1667 fax
> > CXL9@cdc.gov
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Name: MARTARTS.WPD
> > MARTARTS.WPD Type: WordPerfect Document (application/wordperfect5.1)
> > Encoding: base64
>
> --
> Allen Schmitt-Gordon
>
> Judo is not about life and death
> Its much more important than that

--
Allen Schmitt-Gordon

Judo is not about life and death
Its much more important than that

[MarkF]

In this case, it was the verbal "brass knuckles" which did the trick. Nice approach. To get anything done you need lots of red-tape. but this seems to be followed up rather quickly. Good work!