Sensei has a dull job, which is a requirement! Discuss.

[Tripitaka of AA]

No-one is supposed to become a millionaire by teaching Shorinji Kempo. Branch Masters are expected to work for a living.

Training and teaching can take up a lot of time.

You shouldn't be taking on the role of Branch Master if you won't be around long enough to build a club and pass on your knowledge in a consistent way.

You need to have a stable, predictable, secure job that doesn't have long hours.

You may have to sacrifice reaching your full potential in a career, if you wish to become a Branch Master.

You need a dull job.


Your thoughts Ladies and Gentlemen?

[David Dunn]

I don't have a dull job David. It fits nicely with training as the hours are flexible on the whole. For the previous two and a half years at Imperial College training was on a Sunday, which was usually alright, but often a real bind. I missed all the Black Belt Courses in that time, and maybe one week in five I had to attend family events, which are invariably on a Sunday. Sean Dixie covered me when absent. I have to admit that I was loath to leave the branch behind more than any other aspect of London. IC dojo should carry on fine though, so I hope I've at least planted the seeds of a long-lived shorinji kempo branch. Soon to be starting the new University of West England branch (watch this space), with our own Jonboy as one of the assistants along with Tom from UoB branch. Since the future is still uncertain, I may have to move again. I'm trying to take Sensei's records for the most number of BSKF branches founded :)

Seriously though, I believe the two things you have to do are commit to the sessions (obviously) be it two or whatever, but most importantly don't for a moment think that you can stop training yourself. This is when it truly becomes half for yourself and half for others, because your kenshi cannot progress unless you do. A shodan cannot invite ikkyu to take a shodan test, nidan cannot invite shodan to take a nidan test et cetera.

If I have learned nothing else from Mizuno Sensei, it is that you must keep training, keep trying to improve all the time. He has changed his style immensely in the 11 or so years since I first went to his dojo, and every single insight that he has gained, he immediately passes on to his kenshi. I would say that his form is very similar (watch the vids), but his subtlety is immense. In a nutshell, he is the epitome of a Shorinji Kempo branchmaster. Unfortunately we can't all earn our bread that way. I have to say it feels somewhat temeritous (is there such a word?) to have presumed to start a dojo at nidan, let alone shodan :confused:

Closer to the point I don't think that being a Branchmaster has to take up too much time. You need able Shusho who can be the main organisers for three or four years say. As I've said before, Shorinji Kempo is meant to enhance your life, not replace it.

[Tripitaka of AA]

An excellent response DD. It is the first from 18 views so far.

I was reminded of Bando Sensei when I wrote the thread-starter. He of the all-conquering skill in Appo/Kappo, featured in The Way of the Warrior. If my fading memory is correct, he worked as an Inspector on Japan Railways, or was it in the Signals? An apparently humdrum role for an undisputed Master.

Would you agree, that a decision has to be made, do I strive to be the best [insert job title here]? Or do I give half my energy to being the best Branch Master I can be, and the other half to being the best [insert job title here]?

Does it carry on down the line... does Joe "Mr Average Kenshi" Bloggs, need to divert some energy away from career to be a better Kenshi, or should he be trying to burn his candle at both ends, to excel at both.

[David Dunn]

I guess you can't set a rule on this David. We have to earn a crust. Somehow you have to cook your life to a suitable recipe ;)

[Sammy Briggs]

Personally, I believe that you should be able to make a living off what you teach.

Historically speaking, most, if not all, of the great martial artists (ie: So Doshin, Ueshiba, Shiro Saigo, Mas Oyama, M. Ali, Rickson Gracie, etc) had a period of time where they trained religiously for about five to ten years or more. Fact is that rigorous and consistent training is the only way to become proficient in a martial art. Often times you hear of college wrestlers or boxers who are able to wipe the floor with high dan ranked classical martial artists. Is it because the more traditional art is inferior? I don't think so. In fact the more traditional art, which was probably created for combative specific purposes, not tournament winning, should give one an advantage during an altercation. However, I believe that the amount of time and energy, among other things, put forth into training has a direct relation to the success of an art during an altercation. Most serious boxers, wrestlers, or NHB fighters train as if they were aspiring Olympians. This gives them a great advantage.

Anyway, back to my point...It is my opinion (not that I am entitled to one at this young stage in my SK career) that in order to breed strong future generations of Shorinji kenshi and teachers, you have to have that type of daily training available. Unfortunately, under most circumstances, it is usually not possible to offer daily training sessions if the instructor is expected to have a full time job. Conversely, it goes without saying that over commercialaztion will kill an art.

I believe the opposite of what Tripitaka stated:

"You may have to sacrifice reaching your full potential in a career, if you wish to become a Branch Master."

I think it's the other way around: You may have to sacrifice reaching your full potential as a Branch Master, if you wish to have a career. This is why it is so important for the younger kenshi; those without wives, kids and real jobs, to train as hard as they can while they can, in order to establish strong basics that will not deteriorate during the time period when they must become "responsible" adults. Without being able to train on a daily basis, this cannot happen. Of course you can practice on your own, but without someone there to push you, it's just not the same.

Sorry for the long winded post and sounding a bit outspoken. Most people I know don't have a passion for anything. Those that find their passion but are not able to make a living from it just doesn't seem right.

Sammy Briggs
Hollywood Branch

[Kimpatsu]

Gassho.
"Shorinji Kempo has not replaced my life, it IS my life--discuss."
Without Shorinji Kempo, I would never have done the degree in Japanese, so my life and career is bound up initimitely with Shorinji Kempo. This idea of a second-rate job to free you for training/fighting or whatever was even discussed in Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
I think you can have both a great career and solid training, but you need to tailor your work around training times. Who needs sleep, anyway?
BTW, Sammy, Kaiso wasn't paid for teaching Shorinji Kempo, and nor are the Ho,mbu sensei; they're paid for the administrative work they do.
David Dunn: "Temeritas" (with an "a" ) was medieval latin for "rashly", so you might be all right. ;)
Kesshu.

[David Dunn]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
Gassho.
"Shorinji Kempo has not replaced my life, it IS my life--discuss."...

David Dunn: "Temeritas" (with an "a" ) was medieval latin for "rashly", so you might be all right. ;)
Kesshu.

Well Tony, I wouldn't have gone to London if it weren't to train with Mizuno Sensei. I wouldn't have stayed for a dozen years for the same reason. I probably wouldn't have been so rigourous in pursuit of a career that doesn't impinge on my training.

I meant with temerity in the weaker sense of with some nerve/cheek ;)

[sean dixie]

Interesting thread as usual David. I was, as David mentioned involved with Imperial dojo. I would have loved to take over the running of this great dojo Dave set up but my job just would not allow me the time to train with the regularity that I feel is needed, so with regret the dojo has been passed on to a great kenshi also from Mizuno Senseis stable, I will however be in a supporting role time allowing.

It's a difficult line with people like myself who are in the service industry, long and often unsociable hours. Oh to leave the office at five on the dot....:rolleyes:

Anyway, I'm doing my best, but I'm at the stage where I know that to progress further I need to teach and teach without the support of Sensei - knowone to bail me out with a difficult or 'bendy' student!

Sammy, what we are studying is Budo, it's not the point being able to beat a boxer or wrestler for the exact reasons you stated, they train regularly and hard for sport, not Budo. Shorinji Kempo teaches self defence as a single part of healthy body/healthy mind/self defence. The people we really need to beat is ourselves.

[Sammy Briggs]

Sean,

Actually, I train because I need to stay alive and be able to come home to may family every night. I do, in fact, need to be able to beat the boxers and wrestlers in order to be successful at my profession. To bring it a little closer to home; if a boxer or wrestler was attacking your wife or kids, you better be able to beat him.

I strongly believe that the most benefit can be obtained from a martial art through hard training, with the realization that the art you are studying is a "martial" art. A healthy body and a healthy mind are great, but these are the byproducts of serious martial training for the purpose of being successful in combat. To overlook the physical aspects of training will do Shorinji Kempo a great dis-service. While the spiritual aspects of Shorinji Kempo are obvious, I don't think that the art can or should be put in the same category as kyudo or chado, etc.

Sammy Briggs
Hollywood Branch

[sean dixie]

Hi Sammy,


Actually, I train because I need to stay alive and be able to come home to may family every night. I do, in fact, need to be able to beat the boxers and wrestlers in order to be successful at my profession. To bring it a little closer to home; if a boxer or wrestler was attacking your wife or kids, you better be able to beat him.

What do you do work wise Sammy?

Well it's that old question again! Have you sparred with a half decent boxer? You have? Then you know better than to fight them at their game, their to good, you and I won't get a chance - we won't even see it coming! Thankfully I know a couple of good boxers, they never EVER get into any trouble. Wrestler? Never should you go to the ground with anyone, too much danger. Street techniques are based on the principle of getting you to the ground, the stronger man will win, especially when his mates kicking you in the head. Rule of thumb, as kenshi we don't start or look for trouble, if we have to fight you can bet your bottom dollar it'll be with some alpha male who has had a lot of practice and is fast and good at his Saturday nights entertainment!

As you progress through your dan grades, you come to realise that the question posed is an impossable one as there will always be someone better, tougher, faster, harder and plenty more phycho-pathic than you. You WILL still have the advantage. You have heijo-shin, an armery of techniques that can and will be delivered with timing, precision and speed faster than you can even think. I've stopped a couple of vicious fights simply by calming them down. Using Shorinji Kempo techniques from howa rather than kihon. Of course, atemi is there, and don't under-estimate your technique, there's plenty of evidence to say it's more than a match for other styles.

My position still remains on earning money fom Shorinji Kempo- it's one of the great strengths of our art.

[tony leith]

I am in the process of trying to start a club/dojo outside the protective shelter of the existing university dojo in Glasgow. This has made me think anew about the kind of issues that have been discussed in this thread. We can't charge money for training in the university dojo (our sports association, which provides free training facilities, would object). Obviously now that I'm in the position of hiring hall space I have to charge for training, and frankly at the moment I'm lucky to cover the cost of the hall never mind having a lucrative sideline. However, if I do get a reasonable number training, theoretically it might generate some kind of income stream. The first claim on any money generated will be to have a float to cover hall fees in lean times, put money aside to buy equipment etc.

However I wouldn't feel any compunction about taking some of this money - anybody running a club incurs a range of (frequently unforseen) expenses, and puts a lot of time and effort, should be making an effort to attend training seminars etc (which in our case are at the other end of the country). I don't think we should be apologetic about approaching teaching in a professional manner - what we should be careful about would be deriving most of our income from it, at which point our motivation might change. I think this reflects the current WSKO position anyway (perhaps Dave, George or anybody else who knows better might care to put me right?)

Tony leith

[Kimpatsu]

First question, Tony: Are you already San dan?

[BULLDOG]

Hello,

Good question.

So many time I have wanted to give up the day job but as an middle age male with wife- 2 kids – 1 child with diabetes – mortgage – an all the finical responsibility that goes with that. For now, I am keeping the day job and I treasure every class that I can teach for my instructor.

My question to you would be =
[1] What is the minimal amount of income that you can realistically live on, today?
[2] What type of life style do you want to achieve in 5 and then in 10 years?
[3] Can you realistically obtain that 5 and 10 year goal doing what you want to do –and if so how?

I have learned this from my daughter who has Type 1 Diabetes; life is to short and there are no guarantees and we have obligation to others and to our selves. The balance is finding how to meet both of those obligations with out selling out your integrity.

Good Luck – and when you find out how to accomplish the above statement, PLEASE let me know. My dream is to have my own dojo. Some day in the future, but for today I am just renting the dream 3 times a week when I teach.

Good Luck!

BULLDOG
Ed Barton

[Ade]

Dear All

Gassho

I hear lots of echoes of my own situation presently and the path that I followed to get here.
Like Dave and Tony I shaped my circumstances in order to study SK.
After starting in 1982 I had a break from 1985 until 1990, but I always knew I was coming back, as Sensei Peter, my original teacher once said, "the hook is in your lip, like a fish on a line you can run, but you'll be back."
I often discuss the moment when I see the pain of the hook going into a particular kenshi's lip, (with them, as me, it's usually that first real gyaku gote.)
But both of my teachers, Sensei Peter and Sensei Russell spent the majority of their working lives in, what they would freely admit were, jobs that they found/find mundane at times.
Latterly they have both supplemented them by practicing forms of remedial massage to which we all refer injured kenshi, friends and family.
At the UTS this year Sensei Mizuno for the very first time suggested that ALL branch masters receive something from their club for their efforts.
Not everyone agrees that it's a good idea and we all feel uncomfortable at the thought of taking money.
I discussed it with my club and they came up with the figure of £5 per hour training which goes into a savings account, held by the club, to be used for such things as my attendance at training camps, gi's and black belt courses.
It's not a lot, about £20-£35 per week but it makes a huge difference.
And here's why, because my wife no longer minds me going training so much because my teaching pays for my training which, in turn benefits my club.
The majority of us don't want to earn a fabulous living by teaching, but we have to get the balance right.
It's meant to be about half for ourselves and half for others.
I think we're worth that.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Ade
I discussed it with my club and they came up with the figure of £5 per hour training which goes into a savings account, held by the club, to be used for such things as my attendance at training camps, gi's and black belt courses.
Dogi, sensei, dogi.

[Ade]

Oh bl**dy hell, not again, your tactic of death by repetition will never work.
I'm not Japanese and don't want to be.
I'm from Yorkshire and it's bluddy Gi!

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Ade
Oh bl**dy hell, not again, your tactic of death by repetition will never work.
I'm not Japanese and don't want to be.
I'm from Yorkshire and it's bluddy Gi!
No, Sensei, it isn't. If you get this wrong, how much else that is incorrect are you teaching your students? In September 1997 when I was translating at the world taikai in Kyoto, we had some really perpelexing responses in the written test.
"Boker" (Rebellion)
Sky (tsuki)
Fukatsu Satsujin
To name just three that I remember clearly. This is a serious issue. we are Shorinji Kenshi; we should at least get the names right. without that, we're no better than anybody else.
Kesshu.

[Ade]

He's behind you.....

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Ade
He's behind you.....
That's me, Sensei; always Buttons and never Prince Charming... :p

[Ade]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
That's me, Sensei; always Buttons and never Price Charming... :p
Or even priced correctly..
:cry:

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Ade
Or even priced correctly..
:cry:
Oh, I don't know, Sensei. 1,000,000,000,000,000 x 0 is... 0. And I'm worth every penny. :p

[Gary Dolce]

Gassho,

This thread seems to be going in three different directions. I think David Noble’s original question was about whether it is necessary to sacrifice your career to be a successful Shorinji Kempo teacher. Since then we have slightly diverted to the subject of whether teachers of Shorinji Kempo should accept compensation. Both are interesting questions and worthy of further discussion. But it seems that we are getting diverted again by yet another asinine argument about “gi” vs. “dogi”.

I have a suggestion for Tony. You have made your point. We all know how you feel about this subject. It has been discussed to death. You are not accomplishing anything by continuing to raise this. It is not productive to other serious discussions to interject your feelings about “gi” and “dogi” whenever someone refers to a “gi”. Learn to pick your battles. Save your considerable argumentative energy to address the substance of the thread rather than attacking the particular words people use. If it bothers you that much, I suggest that you start a new thread just on that subject and everytime someone writes "gi" in a different thread, you can comment on it in your own thread. Then the rest of us wouldn't have to read this over and over and over ...... unless we really want to.

So, let me address the subject of compensation. I don’t have enough experience to address the subject of compensation of Federation leaders, etc. I do feel very strongly that at the Branch level, Shorinji Kempo teachers should not make a living teaching Shorinji Kempo. But I don’t think that necessarily means that any compensation for expenses is out of the question.

Here’s my personal approach. I have a good job with a decent income. I can afford to buy my own dogi, attend seminars, etc., so I don’t ask for compensation for these things. Having the Branch pay for these things would not make any difference in my ability to do my job as a teacher.

I can also afford to pay Branch dues, so I pay them just like everyone else who can in my Branch. Under the circumstances, I see no reason why I shouldn’t contribute money as well as time to the success of my Branch. But I don’t think everyone has to take exactly the approach I do. Paying dues is my choice and I acknowledge that many would consider that an extreme application of “not for repute or profit”.

Likewise, I don’t think compensation for expenses that directly apply to improving the Branch is necessarily wrong. So, having the Branch pay expenses to send the instructor to a seminar seems reasonable, especially if the instructor would not otherwise be able to attend. Buying dogi, paying transit fare, etc. might also fall into this category, especially if the teacher’s financial status means that he or she could not afford to do these things otherwise.

I have more trouble with the idea of hourly compensation for teaching time. Again, there might be exceptions based on temporary financial need, but overall I think that we should teach Shorinji Kempo because we love teaching it, not because we are getting paid for it. I have even more trouble with the idea of teaching Shorinji Kempo at a Branch in order to make a living. The time we give to teaching Shorinji Kempo is simply putting the concept of "half for yourself and half for others" into action. Our motivation to attend practice should be based on our desire to teach, not our desire or need to make money. If Shorinji Kempo were solely a physical discipline, I would not feel this way. My concern is that teaching for money will ultimately get in the way of following our philosophical ideals. The desire for money or power have long been sources of problems within religious organizations, often resulting in those ideals being lost. The same thing will happen to us if we let it.

Finally, for any non-Kenshi reading this, the discussion here is focused entirely on teaching Shorinji Kempo within the context of the philosophy of Shorinji Kempo. I really don’t care if you teach judo or karate or whatever for a living. I have nothing against this, since I do not know what philosophical ideals your organization has.

Gary

[tony leith]

I find myself in agreement with the general tenor of Gary's remarks (and once again, if Kimpatsu is about to be roused to spluttering indignation because I presumed to use his first name, tough). Speaking personally, I am incurring expenses in trying to establish a training night which is accessble to the general public in Glasgow - right now I'm not getting a sufficient attendance to recoup or even significantly defray these expenses. If and when I do get a sufficiently large membership, I don't see the contradiction with Kempo philosophy in saying that my teaching should not leave me worse off. If I had a large enough income to be able to discount these costs, I'd do this willingly. Right now I don't. One thing that has been contemplated at the BSKF level is the national federation making loans to new clubs to overcome these difficulties -that might be a viable alternative, but in the absence of auch support meeting these costs is going to come in the first instance from the pocket of the instructor (which in my case I can ill afford). Hence my saying that I wouldn't feel it was problematic to charge fees which reflect these realities. Rest assured, Gary, this is going to be some way short of making any sort of a living at it.

Tony Leith

[Tripitaka of AA]

Could someone just clarify the usual financial details for a typical club (uni/Non-Uni). A Kenshi should expect to pay x for the training hall and y for the tuition.

This may prompt some contributions from non-Kenshi, we shall see. I get the feeling that Shorinji Kempo instructors are way down the salary league table of Martial Arts Professionals (far behind Lennox Lewis's spit-bucket holder and the child labour sewing machinists who knock out a zillion White Belts an hour for tuppence a million).

As far as I can see, the quality of Teacher/Sensei/Branch Master (your choice) to be found in a Shorinji Kempo Dojo is very high, wherever you go. How this relates to the paid/unpaid situation is yet another question worth considering.

My motive in posing the original question is to prompt people (Kenshi who have not yet reached the level of Sensei) to start thinking about what they'd need to do to really make the leap required to start their own club. We need to appreciate all that our Sensei are doing for us.

I really admire the dedication and determination of these fine people.

[David Dunn]

This is a subject that I've thought about greatly over the last few years, and have come to some quite strong conclusions. First to answer David's question, most dojos charge of the order of three pounds for the dojo account, which obviously covers hall hire and equipment purchase. The instructor's fees vary from dojo to dojo. Mizuno Sensei's kenshi pay about 28 pounds a month, so around fifty quid a month in total. University dojos usually get their venue free, so in my experience, the dojo war chest gets used to subsidise seminar attendence for the kenshi and paying for dojo social events.

Sensei told me for years to charge fees, and I didn't agree with him until recently. I think that when I started to change my mind was last year, when we were filming the randori video in Imperial College dojo. At lunchtime Sensei said that he'd like myself and George to go to Japan to take our sandan examination. Both of us said it would be difficult to afford, but he simply would not accept that as a valid reason - there is no excuse for an instructor to not be able to afford gradings, summer camps, international seminars and so on.

I used to have a kind of ego-trip that I didn't charge for my classes, so hey, aren't I on the moral high ground? The reality is that amateur status is an excuse for amateur standards. How could my kenshi criticise what I am doing if it's gratis? What is my incentive to make sure I go and train regularly with Sensei? Why should I go to summer camp? These kind of questions. If you charge for the classes you simply have no excuse, and your kenshi would be right to be aggrieved if you fail to make sure you keep trying to improve. I have come to understand that Sensei's position on this matter, like all others, is rooted in his desire to expand Shorinji Kempo. In this case he wants to obligate Shorinji Kempo instructors to behave in a professional manner. It is not to do with compensation for time, but is to make sure we keep our standards up.

Now I think the argument is not so much whether it is alright to charge fees, but that you must do so. If you don't like the idea of taking the money and spending it yourself, the answer is simple. Put it in a separate account and only use it to buy dogi, your insurance, your summer camp fees and other expenses. Teaching for nothing only serves my own interests, insofar as I'm doing it to make myself feel good or look better.

My sanbyaku en worth :D

ps, Tony, the BSKF will do a loan. You have to ask nicely and propose a repayment schedule.

[Sammy Briggs]

Sean,

Sorry for not replying to your post in a more timely manner. Check your private mail later on today. It wasn't my intention to start a "which art is better" argument. I was merely stating that in order to become better than the next guy, you need to train harder than the next guy. This is often only possible to achieve with full time instruction available. Of course everybody trains for different reasons, therefore it may not be necessary for everyone to strive to become a strong "martial" artist. Because of my job, I am able to talk my way out of a potentially violent situation...most of the time. Sometimes, however, you just need to throw down. The last thing I need to be thinking is that this guy is bigger and tougher than me -- he's gonna kick my ass.

Tony K,

Of course money wasn't Kaiso's motivation for teaching, but he certainly was able to make a decent living off his career in Shorinji Kempo. If Kaiso had to have a regular job throughout his life, I doubt that Shorinji Kempo would be at the level it is at today. And...if it wasn't for their ability as teachers and competent Shorinji Kempo kenshi, I don't think there would be much need for the honbu sensei's administrative duties.

Back to the point of the thread...After listening to others views and thinking more on the topic, I have changed my opinion slightly (yes, I'll admit it). It is very obvious that most of the instructors that are able to make enough money to live on, do so in one of several ways, or a combination of such: teaching millions of kids, charging lots of money for frequent rank advancements, or starting their own organization and collecting dues from the branches. Looking around, it's pretty obvious that it is just not possible to make an honest living by only teaching martial arts. With that in mind, what would be the problem with teaching Shorinji Kempo or any other art as a part time profession? Working from home or having a regular part time job could afford you the time it takes to teach classes on a daily basis. It should make sense that if you are willing to put forth that much time and effort into running your own branch, and essentially strengthening Shorinji Kempo, you should be getting compensated. If that's not possible, do as others have done and start a branch with somebody, alternating which nights you teach.

I currently teach Shinkendo, Japanese swordsmanship, out of my home. I would never expect to make enough money to survive by teaching swordsmanship. However, because I spent a ton of cash on renovating my garage to serve the purpose of a dojo, I expect to get that money back. Not to mention that I will be paying a percentage out of my mortgage for my garage dojo for the next 30 years. Right now, I am making enough money from teaching to incur any type of additional expenses that may come along (ie: websites, etc.) and a little more. I have been doing exactly as others have suggested and put the leftover cash in a dojo account. This money I intend to use to buy new mats, insulate the roof, and help pay for my bi-weekly visits to the Shinkendo Honbu dojo. After I have my place set up to where it needs no more work, and I have a nice reserve set aside, I plan on all profits going towards my son's college account.

However...if I could quit my day (actually night) job and make enough money from teaching full time, I would do it in a heartbeat.

Sammy Briggs
Hollywood Branch

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Sammy Briggs
Of course money wasn't Kaiso's motivation for teaching, but he certainly was able to make a decent living off his career in Shorinji Kempo. If Kaiso had to have a regular job throughout his life, I doubt that Shorinji Kempo would be at the level it is at today. And...if it wasn't for their ability as teachers and competent Shorinji Kempo kenshi, I don't think there would be much need for the honbu sensei's administrative duties.
Gassho.
Kaiso was paid for the administration of Shorinji Kempo, not the teaching, just as the Hombu sensei are today, Sammy.
Kesshu.

[David Dunn]

Tony, do the kenshi in Japanese shibu and doin pay explicit fees to the branchmaster?

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by David Dunn
Tony, do the kenshi in Japanese shibu and doin pay explicit fees to the branchmaster?
Gassho.
Only a token, David; good for about one pint of beer a week. The lion's share goes to dojo upkeep, followed by Hombu fees.
Kesshu.

[David Dunn]

Gassho,
thank you Tony. That is different then to Mizuno Sensei. Does the dojo pay for the expenses of the branchmaster, or does the fact that he or she takes a fee imply that they bear their own costs?

I'm interested because this is a very current discussion in the BSKF.

Kesshu,
Dave

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by David Dunn
Gassho,
thank you Tony. That is different then to Mizuno Sensei. Does the dojo pay for the expenses of the branchmaster, or does the fact that he or she takes a fee imply that they bear their own costs?
I'm interested because this is a very current discussion in the BSKF.
Kesshu,
Dave
Gassho, David.
Bear in mind this may differ between branches, but part of the 7,000 yen (approx. 35 GBP) we pay monthly is designated "kenshikaihi" (Kenshi Association expenses), and goes into a pot from which it is withdrawn so that Morita Sensei can go to Hombu every six weeks, for example. Although Morita Sensei turned 60 last year and thus retired (so he lives off his pension), he worked throughout his life, and his sons (assitant branch masters) still do. They money they receive from training is really no more than a token.
HTH.
Kesshu.

[Tripitaka of AA]

I am reminded of the issue of "amateur status" in world sports. Is there a move toward funding "expenses" in the way that Lottery money is used to sponsor athletes who show potential?

Meanwhile, there are McDojo proprietors across the world grinning smugly as they rake in the cash from their ever-hungry customers (sorry, I meant "students";)). There are lots of reasons why prostituting the art for a purse of silver is a bad thing... but then, doesn't it make the teaching of Shorinji Kempo a wealthy man's luxury obsession if you remove the payment of tuition.

[David Dunn]

Thank you Tony, that is interesting, and in keeping with the way I think most of the younger BSKF instructors can be happy. It is certainly how we will do things at the soon-to-be up-and-running UWE dojo.

I'm put to a shame. I just about manage to go to London every six weeks, less than two hours on the train. To make the run from Tokyo to Tadotsu every six weeks shows some level of comittment to his dojo.

Apologies that this is slightly off the original topic.

[Kimpatsu]

Gassho, David.
You're burning the midnight oil, aren't you?
The question of how wealthy you have to be has been raised within the BSKF before, back in my days as Captain. If memory serves, it all started when a couple of unemployed lads in their 20s came to watch, and then asked if there was a discount for the unemployed, and Mizuno Sensei said no, because they should devote all their energies to finding work. Once they had a job, he said, they could afford to come back and train.
Perhaps David (Dunn) or Sensei Ade can tell us what the policy is at present? How much do you charge impecunious students?
BTW, it's not that we don't pay training fees at the Kokubunji Doin, but that they're really just a token. When I was at London University, there was a Spanish guy from a wealthy banking family studying there at the same time, and he joined Simon Lau's Wing Chun club in Chinatown, at a cost of 800 GBP per month. How many people can afford that? Of course, the facilities were state of the art, including swipe cards to enter the building, which meant he could go and work out by himself 24/7, as no one else needed to be there. The fees also included private, 1-on-1 lessons from Sifu Lau himself, but it was still clearly a rich man's perogative. Compared to that, Shorinji Kempo is very reasonable, even at Mizuno Sensei's prices.
One more anecdote to highlight Mizuno Sensei's committment to quality over money (Love Over Gold, à la Dire Straights), again from my tenure as Captain:
The son of an arab oil shiek came to Brixton, and asked how much for private lessons. Mizuno Sensei told him that he didn't teach private, 1-on-1 classes, as the camaraderie fostered by training all together was an important facet of Shorinji Kempo. The arab grew increasingly strident, shrieking, "But I can pay! I have money!" He didn't want to train with us unwashed plebs.
To him, it was all a business transaction, money for tuition. In the end, he left dissatisfied.
I just hope these tales have shed some more light on the Shorinji Kempo stance regarding tuition fees.
Kesshu.

[Tripitaka of AA]

Actually DD, I'm happy that the thread has gone this way... I couldn't have planned it better if I'd tried. The introduction to the concept of Sensei as humans with a wage to earn was established within the first few posts and is now expanding to the nitty-gritty reality of "how should we reward or recognise their contribution without betraying our principles?".

[David Dunn]

Tony, there is no fixed rule about university fees. Uni dojos tend not to have to pay for hall hire, which as you can imagine means that funds accrue much more readily than in non-uni dojo. In UCL and Imperial dojo most of this money is fed back to subsidising students attendences at seminars, so in a sense it's a kind of savings account. Sensei has had discounts for students, but as you say "unemployed? find a job".

Compared to just about any other class, for an instructor of 30 years of the very best experience, 28 quid a month is reasonable in any estimation. It's less than 2 quid an hour if you attend all the classes you've paid for. Pretty much of a token too I'd say.

[Gary Dolce]

Gassho,

I am glad to see this thread is back on track - the current discussion is very interesting.

I want to respond to David Dunn's thought-provoking reply to my message. I agree completely with your conclusion that it is reasonable and even necessary for you to collect enough money to be able to afford to go to Japan, summer camps, etc.

Your comment about being on an ego-trip about not charging for classes was interesting. I have personally never thought of it as an ego issue, but in the spirit of Kongo Zen, I'll spend some self-examination time on that question.


The reality is that amateur status is an excuse for amateur standards. How could my kenshi criticise what I am doing if it's gratis? What is my incentive to make sure I go and train regularly with Sensei? Why should I go to summer camp? These kind of questions. If you charge for the classes you simply have no excuse, and your kenshi would be right to be aggrieved if you fail to make sure you keep trying to improve.

If you are speaking solely from a personal level here, I can understand that viewpoint. But if you are generalizing to all us, i.e., saying this is how we all feel, I think we will just have to agree to disagree. Personally, I don't see amateur status as an "excuse" for amateur standards. In fact I don't believe there is necessarily anything pejorative about "amateur standards". Remember that the root of "amateur" is from the Latin "amare" - to love. For me, the love of teaching imposes a higher standard than monetary reward. In more concrete terms, I think I set a higher standard that most of the McDojos I have seen, where collecting money seems to be the sole motivation. I have never considered the fact that I don't collect money for teaching to be an excuse for anything.

I think your last point about Kenshi feeling aggrieved if they don't get what they paid for is a valid point. I understand that many people feel if you aren't paying for something you aren't going to get anything of value. Personally I find that reasoning perverse, but recognize that it is prevalent in our culture. This is probably the best reason to charge some fee, even if expenses are minimal.

Gary

[David Dunn]

Originally posted by Gary Dolce
Your comment about being on an ego-trip about not charging for classes was interesting. I have personally never thought of it as an ego issue, but in the spirit of Kongo Zen, I'll spend some self-examination time on that question.

If you are speaking solely from a personal level here, I can understand that viewpoint. But if you are generalizing to all us, i.e., saying this is how we all feel...

...I think your last point about Kenshi feeling aggrieved if they don't get what they paid for is a valid point.

Gary, thank you for the comments. I didn't mean to imply that everyone thought the same as myself. I have discussed this issue rather a lot, and I had to question why I disagreed with Sensei more than anything. His phrase is "volunteer status, volunteer standards", which is why I used it. I agree that it doesn't imply bad standards. Conversely, professional status implies that standards should be maintained. I'm not on about McDojos, but properly licenced instructors within a legitimate organisation.