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Ron Tisdale
4th September 2003, 15:03
Is anyone familiar with this name? See the link below for reference...

http://www.aikibudo.us/history.html

Thanks,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
4th September 2003, 20:17
Is anyone able to read this document?

http://www.aikibudo.us/share.html

If I understand correctly, its just a record of a seminar. Would this have any value in terms of *teaching* Daito ryu?

Thanks,
Ron

climbthis
4th September 2003, 21:43
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=pt&u=http://www.fepai.org.br/amestpj1.htm&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dsomekichi%2Bkobayashi%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8

ron-san, here's the same document. exact same. i don't know why in either one, the third name is highlighted. is 0-Senseis name or Kobayashi's name?

jerome cervantes

kokumo
4th September 2003, 22:06
That would be Ueshiba Morihei.

Beyond certifying attendance at a particular training session with some other notable practitioners, it doesn't look to me as if this document goes to the question of any kind of license to teach DRAJJ, one way or the other.

Fred Little

Nathan Scott
21st October 2003, 02:08
[Post deleted by user]

climbthis
21st October 2003, 16:53
nathan

thanx for the info. that's the very reason for this post. i stumbled onto this website a couple months ago, and we've been trying to figure them out since. it was originally posted in baffling budo, i think

jerome cervantes

Nathan Scott
21st October 2003, 19:39
Hello Mr. Cervantes,

My pleasure. I edited my last post to include a copy of the image for future reference, as it would seem that the aikibudo group has changed their URL to:

http://www.daitoryuaikibudo.com

Text pasted below is from the history and instructor pages found at:

http://www.daitoryuaikibudo.com/share.shtml
http://www.daitoryuaikibudo.com/history.shtml
http://www.daitoryuaikibudo.com/inst.shtml


Daito-Ryu Aikibudo Jujitsu Tai Sabaki

Style History:

Jean-Luc Moreau, 8th degree black belt (DAN) in Daito-Ryu Aikibudo Jujitsu Tai Sabaki, headmaster and cofounder of this style, started to study under Somekichi Kobayashi. To enlarge his view and knowledge, Jean-Luc Moreau Sensei also studied different martial arts (Judo, Karate, Kendo, Ko-Budo...) under other great teachers such as:

* Ichiro Abe, 9th Dan (Kodokan), Head Kata Instructor at the Kodokan

* Minoru Mochizuki, (1907-2003) - Founder of Yoseikan Budo Aikido

* Hiroo Mochizuki, (1936-) - Current Head of Yoseikan Budo Aikido

* Taiji Kase, (1929 - ) - 9th Dan Shotokan Karate

* Tadashi Abe, (1926-1984) - Pioneer of Aikido in France and Europe

* Takeda Tokimune, (1915-1993) - 36th Soke, Daito-Ryu AikiJujutsu

* Gozo Shioda, (1915-1994) - Founder of Yoshinkan Aikido

Somekichi Kobayashi studied under Takeda Sokaku, as shown in this Shareiroku [links to image posted above. NS].

For a complete and detailed history of Daito-Ryu Aikijujutsu, please select on the following links:

http://www.daito-ryu.org/index.html [Kondo's mainline]

http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/1235/lineage.html
[John Williams]

**

Jean-Luc Moreau

* Hachidan, 8th Dan, Daito-Ryu Aikibudo Jujitsu Tai Sabaki
* Shichidan, 7th Dan, Judo
* Rokudan, 6th Dan, Aikikai (Aikido)
* Godan, 5th Dan, Ko-Budo
* Yondan, 4th Dan, Shotokan Karate
* Yondan, 4th Dan, Shito-ryu Ryu Karate
* Nidan, 2nd Dan, Kendo

All the historical photos are originally from Stan Pranin/Aikido Journal, or from Kondo S. The shareiroku entry is listed as such, and contains an almost identical translation that is most likely copied from Stan's Encyclopedia of Aikido. Maybe they didn't have anything else historical of their own to add to the site.

They currently have two dojo, both located in Illinois. I'd be curious to learn more about Kobayashi Somekichi, and what their line of Daito ryu teaches. Guess I'll drop them a note and invite them here to enlighten us.

PS. I just had a look through the standard eimeiroku documents, and Kobayashi's name does not appear anywhere. Since his name appears in this shareiroku entry, but was not included in this standarized eimeiroku (or in the AJ Encyclopedia of Aikido), it is likely that Kobayashi was not viewed as an important figure in DR history. The reason this particular shareiroku entry was photographed and published was because this seminar in Engaru was the first training Ueshiba Morihei received under Takeda Sokaku (in 1915), through an introduction by Yoshida Kotaro (also listed). The other names were probably translated simply to offer a complete translation of the entry.

Regards,

climbthis
21st October 2003, 22:18
http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21288

nathan san,

JERRY desu. "mr cervantes" makes me sound like...my dad. anyways, thanx for the info. the above link is the original thread from a couple months ago.

apparently don conningham has seen the group, but doesn't know about the lineage, which is my query also.

its also interesting that he has rokudan in aikikai aikido, but doesn't list any recent shihan at the aikikai that he studied under. or is there something that i'm mis-interpreting?

jerome cervantes

Nathan Scott
22nd October 2003, 01:37
Hello Jerry Desu ;)

My training partner's name is Des, so of course, we call him "Des desu" quite a lot.

Anyway, interesting thread you posted. I did notice in the shomen photos on their web site a picture of Kano Jigoro (Judo) in the shomen position, along framed shuji that I believe is one of the popular Judo maxims (recognize it, but don't remember the exact phrasing).

I also was noticing the high ranks in the various well respected organizations, and in particular, the Aikikai rank. Interesting. I don't know about ya'll, but I have kyu rank certificates that preceed all my dan certificates. I suspect that many people with dan ranks in multiple arts do not, but I guess we'll find out in this case, because I emailed Mr. Moreau a few hours ago inviting him over to chat.

BTW, I searched the net - both in English and Japanese - for references to Kobayashi Somekichi (educated guess on the kanji for "Somekichi"). Came up with zilcho outside of the links already posted here.

Regards,

climbthis
22nd October 2003, 17:33
ok, we'll see what happens.

i tried doing a search too, but just came up with links to that document.

arigato gozaimshita, nathan desu (wow talk about bastardized japanese!)

mata ne
jerome cervantes

Steven Miranda
23rd October 2003, 03:16
Hmmm ... the instructors obi is tied on the outside of his hakama. Is the common practice among AJJ schools?!?

Nathan Scott
23rd October 2003, 18:50
Hi Steve,

In theory, wearing the obi over the outside of the hakama is supposed to facilitate the wearing of weapons for those who practice armored arts, from what I understand.

A shigoki is quite different than a judo belt though, and I have a feeling that most people wearing their belts on the outside don't have a practical reason for doing so or even know why some arts do this.

My theory is that most these people were fighting with the idea of whether it is cooler to wear a hakama, or to show your rank-belt. Many chose to do both. Same kind of logic behind those people who stick the ends of their judo belts out the side vents in their hakama I guess - just in case you didn't notice their belt color!

All I can tell you is it ain't for me. I rarely even wear my judo-style belts anymore. Kaku-obi are better suited for what I do, and I really don't care what color they are!

Regards,

Steven Miranda
23rd October 2003, 23:25
Originally posted by Nathan Scott
Same kind of logic behind those people who stick the ends of their judo belts out the side vents in their hakama I guess - just in case you didn't notice their belt color!

Funny you should mention this. I have two obi's that I generally wear. One with the hakama and the other without. The one I wear without the hakama is wide and long and has my name and dojo name on it. When I've not had the hakama wearing obi, I've had to wear it like this because it won't wrap around.

I usually try to tuck the ends in under the hakama, but they usually pop out. Has NOTHING to do with showing the color, at least in my case.

Nathan Scott
24th October 2003, 01:49
You tie the front hakama himo under your judo belt knot, right? Can't you just secure the free ends down with your hakama himo? I used to wear a judo belt under hakama for a long time, and my judo belt ends always hung straight down.

I guess it's hard to imagine why the ends go sideways with the hakama on, but down with the hakama off...

Ron Tisdale
24th October 2003, 14:33
Well, my belts so new it's still stiff...the ends don't hang straight down! Maybe I should wash it...

Ron :)

elder999
24th October 2003, 15:12
Originally posted by Ron Tisdale
Well, my belts so new it's still stiff...the ends don't hang straight down! Maybe I should wash it...

Ron :)

Don't do that!Most of them shrink something terrible when washed.
Just wait......

Ron Tisdale
24th October 2003, 16:19
:) I know,

Maybe I'll just have to settle for training harder...

Ron

climbthis
24th October 2003, 16:36
i'm partial to letting the ends hang down inside the hakama. the guys i've seen with the ends hanging out remind me kind of like a hanglider. or the wide collars from our old leisure suits. better left for the dance floor, not the mat.

at any rate, a little closer to the subject at hand, to tell you the truth, the only other pix i've seen of people wearing the coloured (even striped!) judo belt over hakama are a group that's not supposed to be mentioned on this BB anymore. not that i'm saying others that do that are also afarce, just that they're the only other pix besides the Moreau group mentioned in this thread.

nathan,
interesting that you mention the inside outside thing. i'm sure alot of these newfangled pseudo-ajj groups popping up had no idea of what that was all about, but had to show off the belt colour

jerome cervantes

Steven Miranda
24th October 2003, 18:08
Originally posted by Nathan Scott
You tie the front hakama himo under your judo belt knot, right? Can't you just secure the free ends down with your hakama himo? I used to wear a judo belt under hakama for a long time, and my judo belt ends always hung straight down.

I guess it's hard to imagine why the ends go sideways with the hakama on, but down with the hakama off...


I have a bujin hakama with the extended front. About 2" to tuck over the belt to keep it in place when taking ukemi. Stays night and tight and in place, preventing having to adjust it and such. The issue with the obi is it is wide. So tieing it makes for a HUGE knot which make the hakama fit and look funny. So I usually don't put a knot in it. Just wrap the ends around the obi.

I do try to let the longer ends hang down inside the hakama, however they tend to work their way out. Hence, I have a thinner and shorter obi I wear with hakama that cooperates.

Okay ... back on topic ...

Nathan Scott
24th October 2003, 22:11
Speaking of being on topic, I just received a reply from the webmaster of Mr. Moreau's page. He has forwarded my email to Mr. Moreau to respond to, and offered a few clarifications in the meantime.

First, the daitoryuaikibudo.com is apparently the old address. aikibudo.us is the new address, but the site was down last time I checked it, so that's why I figured they were going with the former URL.

The webmaster also said that in the photos of Mr. Moreau, in which he appears to be wearing a white belt under his hakama, that this is actually Kobayashi Somekichi's belt, and was passed on to him after Kobayashi's death a few years ago. The photo of someone wearing a belt over their hakama is apparently of Mochizuki Minoru (Yoseikan Budo), and was posted as reference (I didn't look through all the photos myself).

Also, the listing of high-ranking Sensei on their history page is reported as being an accurate listing of instructors that Mr. Moreau studied under in Japan. Apparently the webmaster had a hard time finding information on Kobayashi, which is why there is not much there about him.

Hopefully more information will be forthcoming,

climbthis
8th November 2003, 18:09
http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=21288&goto=newpost

nathan sama,

the above post is a reply to my original thread in the other section. i directed Mr Pichen to this thread for more information.

hope all is well

jerome cervantes