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efb8th
16th June 2000, 00:23
Hello, All,

I am new to this forum, but my first impression is that you have an outstanding collective knowledge. Perhaps you can tell me about the Go no Kata, an early companion to the Ju no Kata. I have seen it mentioned in Kawaishi's SEVEN KATAS OF JUDO and in my 1915 translation of JUDO (KYOHAN) by Yokoyama & Oshima, but they do not describe it.

Though I have not seen the Kanji, I assume the "Go" is "hard or strong" not "five."

Koizumi also mentions but does not describe it in "My Study of Judo."

Can anyone help me out?

Thanks in advance,

------------------
Ed Burgess

Kit LeBlanc
16th June 2000, 07:25
The Fall 1999, #8 issue of Hoplite, the Newsletter of the International Hoplology Society, page one, contains an article on a demonstration of the Go (yeah, hard...)no K ata by Antony Cundy.

It was demonstrated at the 51st annual meeting of the Doyukai (Friends of the Way) held at the Kodokan, by 7-dan Ochiai Toshiyasu and 4-dan Taniguchi Yutaka. They translate it (Forms of Hardness/Inflexibility/Strength), and it is said it was the first time in 50 years that the kata were demonstrated. The piece says that the kata "represents an important historical link between the classical practices of jujutsu and the all-round educational emphasis of Kano Jigoro's Kodokan Judo. " Supposedly it is the oldest original Kodokan kata.

They are described as being"executed by two practitioners who engage in short bursts of strength matching exercises, which are then concluded with an application of a throwing or choking technique." They give an example of the the first technique, the exponents take a grapplers embrace then try to push each other backwards, they reverse and pull, then one guy breaks and throws the pusher.

Seven techniques are practiced, three repeated with different irimi patterns. The techniques are listed:
1. Seioinage
2. Ushirogoshi
3. Sukuinage
4. Seionage
5. Ukigoshi
6. Hadakajime koshikudaki
7. Tobikoshi ukigoshi
8. Osoto otoshi
9. Ushirogoshi
10. Kataguruma.

Supposedly they were used as a warmup at the start of class in "the earliest days" day at the Kodokan. Apparently both practitioners start from jigotai and initiate all movements from there. Hip strength is the main focus, rather than shoulders. Also, they apparently avoid gripping each other's clothing (the article mentions the older short sleeve/pants judogi). It says "they (the techniques) are functional no matter what the apparel, whether a modern type of judogi or no clothing at all."

Ochiai sensei was apparently deluged with requests for videotape of the kata.

They sound REALLY COOL.

Kit LeBlanc

efb8th
16th June 2000, 08:35
Kit,

You are a wonder! THANKS!!

Lst's see what else turns up.



------------------
Ed Burgess

Kit LeBlanc
17th June 2000, 01:38
I like to think I'm wonderful.

My friends think I'm a legend in my own mind...er, time.

Kit

Mitch Saret
17th June 2000, 07:25
I'll have to dig and then review and see if I am correct, but somewhere I have a video tape showing all of judo's kata, done by quite high ranking judoka. I think it was done at the Kodokan, but it has been awhile since I have watched it. It even included the weapons kata. Should I find this elusive tape, I would be more than willing to make dubs of it for those interested.

------------------
With respect,

Mitch Saret

efb8th
18th June 2000, 04:29
Hi, Mitch!

Thanks! I'm pretty sure it doesn't appear on any commercially available videos, but I could be (and often am) wrong. If you DO find the Go no Kata, I would be delighted to reimburse you for your time and materials.

Thanks again,

Ed Burgess

------------------
Ed Burgess

MarkF
18th June 2000, 09:19
As long as one is offering and one is accepting, you can put my name on the list, Kit. That is more than generous. Of course you would be reimbursed for the trouble. Thanks,

------------------
Mark F. Feigenbaum

Osoto2000
18th June 2000, 10:03
Yes please kit, I would also be very greatful to see this Kata. and ofcourse the offer of reimbursment goes for me too.
You realise through your mighty generousity you could be very busy!

------------------
(We practice for thousands of days, whether we win or lose is decided in an instant).
--------------
Ray Brown
--------------

Kit LeBlanc
18th June 2000, 11:33
Whoa, slow down...

MITCH said he had a tape, not me. I WISH I had the tape. IF I did, I would be more than happy to get them to you....

Kit

kokanut
18th June 2000, 15:45
hi Mitch,

you can add me to the list also. please let the list know if and when you find the video.


yours in budo,

gary d Rudenick

Osoto2000
18th June 2000, 21:33
Sorry Kit didn't mean to scare you I just mis-under stood who was offering for the moment. oops!
Any way Mitch if you can I would love to be included in the Go No Kata Fest, Thanks

------------------
(We practice for thousands of days, whether we win or lose is decided in an instant).
--------------
Ray Brown
--------------

MarkF
19th June 2000, 08:41
Well, bust my britches, but it was me who started this error in action. I apologize to the both of you, Kit and Mitch, but if the offerstull stands, I would love to see it.

BTW: It is Itsutsu no kata which is The Five Forms. From what I have seen and read, it is a kind of beginning to ju no kata and go no kata. I don't think these were ever finished, though.



------------------
Mark F. Feigenbaum

BrianV
19th June 2000, 21:38
Hello All!
Mitch, I would love to be included in this, so put me down for a copy also.
Thanks,
Brian Vermeulen

MarkF
20th June 2000, 10:29
See what happens when you extend a hand of charity, Mitch? All the lazy idiots like us want you to extend a hand. I don't no why you put up with us.:rolleyes:

efb8th
22nd June 2000, 14:42
Just to keep you abreast of the status of this project on my end: armed with Kit's information, I have contacted a possible source in the Kodokan to call in an old marker I have in place there in the Archives section. If it pays off, I should be able to get either a video or the written description.

I'll keep you posted. Thanks for the input.

Mitch Saret
25th June 2000, 08:16
Well, let's see now, that's five tapes and three confused people...right? LOL

Seriously guys, I have had a couple of major goings on at some rental property...tenants left it a wreck! I have to get a months worth of work done in a weekend. Plus a major storm here produced a heck of a leak in my roof and now I have to re-wallpaper a room!

I have not had the chance to look for the tape yet, but know the general area of the cabinet and will start dubbing ASAP. I will get mailing addresses later.

Thanks for understanding.

MarkF
26th June 2000, 11:09
Hey, Mitch,
As in most things, it could have been worse, but I think I can speak for the others and say we are glad everything is ok. In other words, don't worry about it, man. :cool:

Yamantaka
1st July 2000, 22:30
Uhh...Mitch?!? Can I jump in this wagon? Of course, I'll repay your costs...blah, blah, blah...I know it's an unabashed intrusion on your good will, but I can't miss this opportunity!
a thousand "sorries" and best regards
Yamantaka

Mitch Saret
7th July 2000, 03:47
OK folks, here's the scoop. I have found the tape. It was done at the Kodokan and contains, I believe, all of the Kodokan Judo Kata, mainly performed by high ranking judoka. I saw more red and white belts than anything, and it's been so long that I don't remember what rank starts wearing that in judo.

The other thing is, in my reading I can't find a judo kata called Go No Kata. It's not listed in my outline of Kodokan stuff, so maybe this is not what you are looking for. However, judging from Kit's description, it is on there.

If you are still interested E-mail me with your mailing address. I think 5 dollars should cover costs of the tape, padded envelope, and mailing...regular mail of course. When I get your e-mail I will dub your copy and ship ASAP, depending on my schedule. I will e-mail you back with my mailing address for you to send the 5 bucks to.

I have been asked about tape trades too, and that is not a problem.

Also, as an added bonus, at no additional charge, (going back to my days as a radio DJ) I can include, cause it's on the same tape, a demo and description of the 65 throws of the Kodokan. I think since the tape was made they added two more throws to the official list. Let me know when you e-mail me.

ss29515
7th July 2000, 05:12
Hi Mitch,

Hope you don't mind if I jump on the dubbing bandwagon too. $5.00 is more than reasonable for the amount of stuff on the tape. I'll probably drool while watching it and then eventually donate it to the dojo I go to.


thanks!

Yamantaka
7th July 2000, 11:22
[QUOTE]Originally posted by SaretSensei
[B]
If you are still interested E-mail me with your mailing address. I think 5 dollars should cover costs of the tape, padded envelope, and mailing...regular mail of course. When I get your e-mail I will dub your copy and ship ASAP, depending on my schedule. I will e-mail you back with my mailing address for you to send the 5 bucks to.

Mitch-San :

If I'm still interested??? You're kidding???
I'll send you the 5 bucks inside a postcard (since sending them by a money order would be, in Brazil, expensive and ridiculous. As soon as you get the postcard, e-mail me.
Now, I'm just waiting for your address.
Thanks a lot. You're quite a nice guy.
Ubaldo Alcantara (Yamantaka)
ShinToKai DoJo of AiKiDo.
P.S. I have a friend that is a rokudan of judo. I'll think I'll try to kill him with happiness...

kokanut
7th July 2000, 12:03
Mitch-

I started digging in my videos and came up with a video called "Kata Demonstation in Kagami-Biraki Ceremony Kododan"
Do you think this is the same video? it has the seven kata on it.


thanks,


gary d Rudenick

Mitch Saret
8th July 2000, 02:56
Gary,

It might be the same, but mine has no title. It was a loan that I dubbed myself. It's still pretty clear, so the copies should not be a problem.

I have started getting the replies, but most have not indicated if they want the throws or not. If this was an oversight let me know. I am picking up tapes tomorrow and will begin the dubs on Monday.

Yamantaka
8th July 2000, 15:22
"[QUOTE]Originally posted by SaretSensei
[B]
I have started getting the replies, but most have not indicated if they want the throws or not"

Everything, my friend! Even the Bugs Bunny Show!
Yamantaka

Mitch Saret
19th July 2000, 05:23
OK, here is the situation. The apartment i had to re-hab is done and the tenants are moved in. I am on vacation as of today after I clocked out.

I have gotten blank tapes and put the first one to dub in the machine today. As of today the only check i have recieved is from Mark F.

I do not have all of the return addresses from those who wanted a tape, but here is the list of those I have. If you are not on the list, e-mail me your address asap.

Mark F., Ray Brown, Gary Rudenick, Brian Vermeulen, Mel Bailey, Ubaldo Alcantara, Ed Burgess.

If anyone else wants one you had better let me know.

As far as where to send your checks or money orders...I will put my dojo address and phone here. Some of the responses with the new program didn't go out.

Here it is:

Karate USA
505 Seventh Street
Charleston, IL 61920

(217) 345-1116

Just to make sure I get everyone I will put the throws on all the tapes. Just a reminder though, I will not send out your tape without first receiving payment. I think it's pretty obvious I am not trying to make a profit, but I don't want to go in the hole for this either. The dojo takes enough of that anyway:)

Let the dubbing commence!

MarkF
19th July 2000, 07:49
I am sure everyone agrees or has thanked Mitch for his generosity for doing this. Also, after everyone has viewed and re-viewed h/her tape, watched at least some in slo-mo, a lively discussion on this should light up this forum more than a three story house with a quarter million dollars of Christmas lights. This is a warning or an invitation, both very cordial:)

Mitch Saret
21st July 2000, 03:34
OK, Gary, I do have a title and it may be the same tape. I checked with the guy I borrowed the tape from and he says, on his copy it's "1995 Kodokan Kagami Biraki. If this is the same tape I'll take your name off of the list of dubs.
Let me know.

kokanut
21st July 2000, 03:44
Mitch-

go ahead and send me a copy and i will let you know if it is the same. the one i have seems older then 95. your check was mailed yesterday.


thanks,

gary d Rudenick

ss29515
21st July 2000, 19:12
Mitch,

Who do you want us to make the check out to? Karate USA? I'm sorry for taking so long in checking in with you. I'm really appreciative of the tremendous work you are doing on this. I'll have the check out to you tomorrow morning.

thanks!

Yamantaka
22nd July 2000, 00:23
[QUOTE]Originally posted by SaretSensei
Mark F., Ray Brown, Gary Rudenick, Brian Vermeulen, Mel Bailey, Ubaldo Alcantara, Ed Burgess.
If anyone else wants one you had better let me know.
As far as where to send your checks or money orders...I will put my dojo address and phone here. Some of the responses with the new program didn't go out.
Just to make sure I get everyone I will put the throws on all the tapes. Just a reminder though, I will not send out your tape without first receiving payment. I think it's pretty obvious I am not trying to make a profit, but I don't want to go in the hole for this either. The dojo takes enough of that anyway:)

Sorry for being so late, Saret Sensei! As I told you before, they charge ridiculous for money orders, so I'm sending you the money, inside a post card. A bit risky but I'll try. When you do receive it, please, let me know, OK?
Ubaldo

Mitch Saret
23rd July 2000, 04:46
OK guys, I have started receiving checks, and thanks to those giving a little extra. My wife is real worried about going in the hole over this, but don't you folks worry! lol

As far as making the checks out..to me or Karate USA is OK. And don't worry Ubaldo, I'll keep your copy on hold. I am picking up the envelopes tomorrow and the first four copies will be in the mail on Monday. I will e-mail you when I have sent yours so you know when to expect it.

Had more fun in another apartment yesterday. I had to remove a toilet, rip out a floor, replace the floor, re-tile the floor, and replace the pot. All in one day! After spending about ten hours in what amounts to a seiza position, I am still sore! Ah, the joys of being a landlord! :)

Take care all.

ss29515
23rd July 2000, 06:36
Mitch,

I wasn't able to get your check out in the mail as of yet. Been too busy timing contractions and going back and forth to the hospital this weekend. Man, birthing a baby takes a bunch of time! Wonder if judo has any self-defense katas for defending against a irrate wife experiencing false labor. I'M feeling blacck & blue from the beatings I'm taking! HAH!

thanks

MarkF
23rd July 2000, 07:57
You may want to study up on Kappo jutsu applied to one's self, but until your wife is screaming, Mel, I HATE YOU, I HATE YOU, I HATE YOU! and the bruises heal, I would do anything she says.:)

efb8th
23rd July 2000, 14:05
Good Morning, Mel!

I'm not sure if third trimester injury treatment is Kappo or Katsu, but being a grizzled veteran of such encounters, I can make an observation: It's damned hard to duck when you're in bed, and don't even THINK about blocking!

Congratulations on your blessing! Teach the little nipper about compound interest as soon as you can.

ss29515
25th July 2000, 06:08
Well, ya'll. Another future Judoka has joined our ranks. Philip Caleb stepped onto the mat at 8:19 PM CST/CDT today (7/24/2000). He weighs in at 7 lbs 12 oz and is 20 inches long. As much as he moved in the womb, he's gonna be a natural at newaza!

Mitch, I may be a wee bit late on getting you a check in the mail. I think I'm gonna be a wee bit busy this week L:)

MarkF
25th July 2000, 09:12
Kappo or katsu, it is a moot point now. Congratulations. Does he have his own woom? I can't believe I just said that!:)

BrianV
25th July 2000, 18:31
Congratulations Mel!!!!!
I have heard that a good time to work on Kiba Dachi is during potty training!.
Also, keep a record of how his kiai improves!! :)

All the best,
Brian

25th July 2000, 19:46
There are nine different kata video tapes listed for sale at the Kodokan's web site store:

http://www.hint.co.jp/kshop/

Unfortunately, Go no Kata is not one of them. However, the tape series is excellent. I have several of these, and the quality is unbelievable. Maybe soon they will do one on Go no Kata.

efb8th
26th July 2000, 05:19
Mel,

Ditto on all the good wishes! Health and long life!

Mitch Saret
26th July 2000, 06:46
Way to go Mel! And Mrs. Bailey too. After all she had a big part in the event!

Don't worry about timing, your copy is ready and waiting for you. As for everyone else, I have already e-mailed some of you. The tapes are ready and starting to go out!

Thanks for your patience with my problems. Enjoy the tapes.

efb8th
30th July 2000, 16:40
Good Morning Mitch!

Great Tape! But, alas, no Go no Kata. It will nonetheless be a featured player in my video collection for a long time! Flawless kata, like good friends, are always welcome.

But back to the problem at hand. We still don't have a video (or even a rough description) of the Go no Kata. And to complicate matters further, E.J. Harrison says in his foreword to Kawaishi's book, "The Go-no-Kata, or kata of force or blows, more characteristic of Karate-Do (the technique of the Atemis.)" Is Harrison faking? I'm confused! (So everything is normal.)

ss29515
31st July 2000, 19:40
Mitch,

The little nipper developed a touch of jaundice and will have to be under some lights for a while. Man, he's a handful when he's under the lights. I know his kiai will be awesome! I should be able to get the check out this week! My wife has his webpage up now.... http://www.geocities.com/tx_nelb/philip.html. He's a pretty little whippersnapper!

thanks everybody for the goods wishes and all!

efb8th
1st August 2000, 11:31
Of all the living idiots, I may be the dumbest, but I finally searched the web under "go no kata!"

To get "THE LOST KATAS OF JUDO (vol 1)", send name, address, city, state & zip plus your MC#, exp date, and Name as it appears on card to: kobushi@pop3.frontier.net

The url is http://www.frontiernet.net/~kobushi

The product number is V-LKJ-04. The price is 29.95 + 6.00 shipping + handling. There is also a more expensive CD with more goodies on it!

YAHOOOOOOO! (With all due gravity and martial decorum, of course.)

MarkF
1st August 2000, 12:35
To Ed and all interested in the above website for the Go No kata:

Please be advised that these products are being offered by such groups as Dai Nippon Seibukan Budo/bugei Kai and the American Society of Classical Judo may have a tweak or two in it. One, there is mention of the following: Dai Nippon Seibukan Budo/Bugei Kai, an organization which does not exist, and probably never existed, and two, see one concerning the ASCL. This is the same as advertised as giving high grade status to the owner of Juko Kai, and that Isao Obata has long since passed and again, is touted by juko kai, and another who I do not need to mention. Those who were around for this discussion may remember the flames which rose concerning this one. Beware. If you still feel you can buy merchandise from this company, I would be very sure of what you are getting. Neither of these judo or martial art groups are extant today.

This is not an opinion, but one which has been admitted by certain people who claimed membership and high rank in these organizations.

efb8th
2nd August 2000, 06:01
In that case, hold off and I will get it for perusal. If it's trash, I'll be out 29.95. If it's good, I'll let you know. Two other kata on the tape are nage ura no kata and go no sen no kata, both of which I have seen. So now we wait.

Thanks for the warning, Mark!

MarkF
2nd August 2000, 09:58
Ed,
I checked the websites and found that particular item, and I did not see a reference to Go No Kata, only to Go no sen no kata, and a couple of others not dead. If you have ordered, then thank you very much from the heart. If you haven't, I would strongly caution against it. Itsutsu no kata, if that is also mentioned, is only known by number, and only the first one or two resemble jujutsu. The others are way too esoteric and are unfinished, at best. At least, that is how it was described to me (secret, okuden only). Shhhhhhsh. Quiet.

efb8th
2nd August 2000, 11:56
Good morning, Mark.

The tape I ordered (and got a confirmation on) specifically listed the Go no Kata. Whether it is the REAL thing, I should be able to discern from description in HOPLITE (post # 2). As for Itsutsu, it is esoteric but well known and uniformly practiced. It is the same in all my references (three videos + many books).

Time will tell.

efb8th
9th August 2000, 07:01
Well,

I got the CD (out of tapes), and the Kime no Kata and the Go no Sen no Kata are pretty much by the book. I've only seen their "Go no Kata" once and it's pretty cool stuff but I can't really go over it until this weekend, when I will compare it to the post notes. Right now, I'd say it's still a "possible."

More soon.

efb8th
14th August 2000, 05:15
Hi, everyone.

After scrupulous comparison of the description in Hoplite (post#2, this thread), I am sorry to say that the kata advertised as the "Go no Kata" bears no resemblance to the go-no-kata described in Hoplite. Instead of ten arts there were two sets of arts, containing 11 and 9 arts respectively. None of the arts were executed in Jigo Hontai. Most of the arts were counters to punches or kicks. And finally, there was an overall lack of appropriate reaction and efficiency (a a wrist grab, for instance, was countered with nerve strikes and a throw.) Even if I had no description, I would not buy it as authentic. Sorry to have dissapointed, but it was worth a shot!

regards,

MarkF
14th August 2000, 09:23
Thank you Ed,
You went to much trouble and expense to find something old and something "new" to all judoka, the Go No Kata. I was afraid that it might not be true, but was praying it was.

Can you tell us who made tape? The company, the organization, and the participants? Is George R. Parulski mentioned, either as the producer or as tori/uke on this C/D? Is the ASTJ (American Society of Tradional Judo) or the ISTJ (Internation Society of Tradional judo)? What about the Seibukan USA or the Dai Nippon Seibukan renmei budo/bugei kai? I am interested as these names have come up in the past as being fraudlent. I am not on a witch hunt but it would be nice to know so that others can make the choice going in as to whether any of the products from that site are true, or not.

BTW: Is a David Stockney mentioned as well?

Again, thanks Ed, for going way out of your way to find the truth. I am indeed sad that some, who are out there to make a buck, would push something non-existant.:cry:

efb8th
14th August 2000, 11:37
Hi, Mark,

Parulski is Tori, and there is mention of his sensei, Obata, who supposedly trained under K. Mifune. There is a substantial disclaimer re: "Kodokan politics" and Obata. It even went so far as to say (paraphrase) "either this is true, or Obata made it up." Obviously, Obata made it up.

But it's not all bad; I should be able to sift through it and get a few things I can use.

I'll keep looking.

MarkF
16th August 2000, 09:12
Hi, Ed,
Thanks for the information on the CD. I had written to Parulski recently and asked him if he would like to respond to my (and others) allegations. He responded, which surprised me, but I made it as polite as possible, and I did want to know his reaction to being associated with certain organizations and people.

He said the "go no kata" on that CD was given to him by his teacher, Obata. This Obata passed away a long time ago, but no one could authenticate his credentials, especially by those who know. Yes, he said that Obata was a student of Mifune but it isn't difficult to make this connection considering how many "students" of the old Kodokan who are still living, though many are not. Since Mifune passed away in the late sixties, there were probably thousands who could have attended seminars, classes, etc., and said they were students. Think S. Takeda and M. Ueshiba.

There was more but I had told him that his personal mail would not be shared here, and I usually;) keep my promises. He doesn't defend his relationship to those in question, but he is also a member of Budokai so he isn't in hiding.

Again, thank you for the trouble and expense incurred while trying to coraborate whether his "go no kata" was the true one. I think I can speak for the others who were hoping for the best in giving you thanks.

Sincerely,
Mark