Nihon Heiho Kobukai/ Yoshimine Yasuo

[Vapour]

I got into HKD - Daitoryu lineage debate in other MA forum and stumble upon this page. Unfortunately the site is in Japanese but this is very intersting site so I post it here. If you have interest in history this page is worth translating.

http://www.budoshop.co.jp/Yoshimine%20/bh2003/030502.htm

http://www.budoshop.co.jp/Yoshimine%20/bh2003/0510zokudaito.htm

Mind you, it require knowledge not just in Japanese but also in old terms of Japanese budo. So you need someone like Cordy to do it for you.

As of my take on this page, it seems that it is absolute waste on both side to get involved in HKD-Daitoryu lineage debate.

Lineage = Send Money This Way

[Vapour]

Opps, sorry. Got wrong name. I meant someone like Hyaku (Hyakutake Collin)

[glad2bhere]

Funny how time changes things. Some years back when I was first investigating the tradition ascribed to Jang In Mok I got no end of grief from Hapkido folks who had no idea who he was but swore a connection between Choi and Takeda. Now the Choi advocates are talking about how Jang In Moks certificate proves that Choi could have actually taken DRAJJ. Well, no kidding. Thats never been the problem. The problem is how much, when and from whom.

BTW: As I have reported before according to various reports there was no real love lost between Choi and Jang, though nobody seems to know what the basis of the antagonism was.

Closing thought. I'm no expert on Japanese tradition, but if there is a connection between Choi and Takeda, by rights shouldn't all of the people who are practicing Hapkido have to clear their rank and their revenues though the DRAJJ people under Sensei Kondo? Just a thought.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[MarkF]

Closing thought. I'm no expert on Japanese tradition, but if there is a connection between Choi and Takeda, by rights shouldn't all of the people who are practicing Hapkido have to clear their rank and their revenues though the DRAJJ people under Sensei Kondo? Just a thought.


That's a good thought. At least I don't think anyone has ever brought this up before, at least not to my knowledge.

Damn, that makes so much sense I had to add another sentence.


Mark

[Vapour]

O.K. guys, I thought I might do grand attempt to translate the entire page in one shot but if I do that way, I won't even get to do it first paragraph given my temparament.

Moderator promised me to let me update my translation so I will do partial translation of the link I posted first then expand my translation.

To ensure that nothing of my opinion will get in, I will not add explanation to my translation. I will do that in separate comment.

[Vapour]

Seven Wonders of Daito-ryu

Now, I have been keep making useless rants so I will get back to my initial intention and write something serious.

Now, our renowned Daito-ryu aikijujitu has seven unresolved enigma. So let me name this "Seven Wonders of Daitoryu. It is equal or even better than Seven Wonders of the World.

Wonder 1 - Who is the real founder?

Wonder 2 - How Aiki was created?

Wonder 3 - What was the entire system like?

Wonder 4 - Why the content of Transmision book do not match the actual transmission?

Wonder 5 - Where has the vast instruction fees has disappeared to?

Wonder 6 - How good was Soukaku, really?

Wonder 7 - Who was the real successor?

Hmmm, I won't be able to sleep again (This is so old.). You can find where underground train go in but this won't be the same. So let examint these together.

Wonder 1 - Who is the real founder?

Even Now, as everyone know, any Daitoryu related writing would grandly state the story that "Daitoryu was founded by Shinra Saburou Minamot Yoshimitu, Transimitted by Takeda Family of Kai to Aizu Han (Clan), preserved as secret palace arts (Oshikiuchi) by high ranking samurai, and revealed to the world first time by Takeda Sokaku". However, as a definite historical fact, evidence in relation to Oshikiuchi being practice in Aizu feudal province does not exist so far. As far as historical investigation goes, To deny something which has existed is difficult but, in reverse, to state the existence of something which didn’t exist can be done infinitely. For what I hear, there are some people who even fabricate entire Transmission Book so there are always better players. Aren't these people really desparate for credibility, are they? I can’t understand this kind of thinking. But let put aside these rather unrealistic/outrageous story. Firstly, the issue of whether Daitoryu had existed before Takeda Sokaku, at this present point, the possibility of existence is close to zero. Styles which had been practiced in Aizu Feudal Province at the time of Bakumatu (The End of Shogunate) has been made public by detailed research of Mr Ken Takahash and name of Daitory or Oshikiuchi is nowhere to be seen. But it is probable that style which became the basis of Daitoryu has existed. Shihan Kinbei Satou of Daiwo do, while he was alive, has proposed hypothesis that Asayama Ichiden ryu became the basis of Daitoryu, and certainly as gyaku-waza have parts which is similar, this hypothesis has some validity.

Those Takeda Sokaku studied under, if one list in order of learning, are Soukichi Takeda the father (Staff, Sumo), Souemon Takeda, the grandfather (Jujitu), Dengoro Kurokouch (experts in various styles), Touma Shibutani (Onoha Itto Ryu), Kenkichi Sakakibara (Jiki Shinkage ryu), Shyunzou Momoi (Kagami Shinmeich Ryu), Gonemon Sakai (Honshin Kyouchi ryu Kensou Jutu ), and Tanomo Saigou (Rename himself to Chikatoku Hoshina after restoration, Mizoguchi ha Itto ryu, others unknown). Now, the jujitu taught by grandfater is not known. After quite while, when Sokaku started to live in Hokkaido, Rinzou Itabashi, a old fried from the same province came to visit, saw Soukaku’s aiki techniques and said, “It’s different from Yawara you have been doing previously”, Sokaku is said to have replied “this I learned from Hoshina-san (Chikatoku Hoshina)”. Presumably, “Yawara you have been doing” referred to the Jujitu taught by his grandfather, does it? And, it may be possible that he has learned some sort of jujitu from Dengoro Kurokouchi. If that is the case, to think it simply, it follows that these jujitu style ought to be regarded as separate from current Daitoryu and “Techniques/Skills taught by Hoshina” is what is regarded as Daitoryu, doesn’t it but it is actually quite subtle matter.

First, the time previously mentioned person of Rinzou Itabashi visited was 1915 and at this year people like Koutarou Yoshida or Morihei Ueshiba entered the gate of the school. And in previous year, Munenori Kougi Sakawa (at the time 12 years old) entered the gate, and to judge from the techniques of these people, it seems that Sokaku has stopped teaching the techniques in accordance with the Transmission Book. If techniques seen by Mr Sakabashi are such, It cannot be the case that said “Technique taught by Hoshina” = Daitory. If techniques written in Transmission Book is not the one taught by Chikatoku Hoshina, Daitoryu cannot be discussed with chikatoku Hoshina alone.

On the side note, Munenori Sakawa proposed rather most appropriate theory by saying “I think, in actuarity, Takeda Sensei made it (Daitoryu). If you see the photograph of Tanomo Saigou, one can’t possible think he done aiki. Those who trained and those who didn’t show difference even in the way they sit. May be learned few kata but still I think Takeda Sensei invented it. Something this difficult cannot possibly be transmitted from the past.” . The reason why this theory is the most appropriate, to explain it in order, firstly, it seems that Daitoryu had not been established as a style at the time of Soukaku. Now to explain what does it meant to be established as a style, as far as Japan is concerned, at first, it means that kata containing the transmission of battlefield skills has been complied as teaching method. On the other hand, in case of Sokaku, he only taught the sequence of techniques. Kata in Koryu start from Reihou (sequence of paying respect), approach each other from a far, apply a technique as they enter maai (distance), and end with Zanshin so initial Reihou to Zanshi are set to be kata, but in actuality, the movement before the application of technique is important and with this one train the feeling of maai or metuke (eyeing) and such, but the content Soukaku taught lack this part for some reason. (At least, Daitoryu not having Reihou or Shitugyou (Translator, or Shitukou is definite due to the testimony of Munenori Sakawa). Current mode of demonstration kata are created later, just in case.

Plus, jujitu which has been transmitted to Meiji Era though Edo period, always transmit teaching of Ogusoku (or Kogaisoku). This is reminant of Armoured grappling but Daitoryu completely lack the idea of Ogusoku. Even those style which was created during Meiji Era, such as Shin Kage ryu Jujitu still kept kata containing the transmission of battlefield skills and is quite obvious that it has succeded the Ogusoku teaching of Tenshin Shinyou ryu. However, not only Daitoryu complete lack this, it even has technique such as Shinou Nage which goes against the technical logic of Ogusoku. Now, you are not going to tell me that Shomenuchi (Frontal chop) presuppose frontal katana strike and atemi (strike) to side rib means strike between the crevice of amour so it is Ogusoku, are you? The basis of Ogusoku and Armoured grappling is Wakizashi (short sword/Long knife) combat. (This is common sence of Kobudou). To add side note, “Te toki” technique to free the hand which has been gripped come from the Ogusoku concept (as originally it was technique to free the gripped Wakizashi then cut). But in technique of Ryote tori (Both hand being gripped) in Daitoryu is completely different concept and it somehow more natural to consider it as to transferring the skill of central breakthrough when you have sword. (I will explain this further in latter part).

To add one more, one could point out that, at the time Sokaku was teaching, technique had no name. Sokaku was illiterate so had great difficulty reading and writing so all the Transmission Book was done by an amanuensis. Then what did this person(s) who wrote it for Sokaku copied from? If Soukaku received Daitoryu from Kintoku Hoshina, then as a matter of course, writing mode and content of the Transmission Book had to be based on the Transmission book given by Kintoku Hoshina but it is difficult to think this way. Rather it is more natural to think that it was oral dictation of Sokaku. To say further, it is said that Sokaku wrote Daitoryu in kanji then made it to be read as “Yamato-ryu” but at about 1915, following the advice of Kotaro Yoshida, he made it to be read as Daitoryu, and this is another evidece of not being established as a style.

Another matter which is mysterious in Daitoryu’s Transmission book is its line of lineage. Line of lineage listed at the end of the Transmission book shows, Emperor Seiwa - Prince Sadasumi - Minamot Tunemoto – Mitunaka – Yorinobu – Yoriyoshi – Yoshimitu (Shinra Saburou) – Takeda Yoshikiyo – Nobuyoshi – (10 generations) Nobumitu – Nobuyoshi – Kunitugu – (10th generation decendants) – Takeda Souuemon – Takeda Sokaku but then where the number 36th line of succession claimed by previous Soke Tokimune come from? For example, in “Encycropedia of Bugei ryu” , from Takeda Nobumitu to Nobutuna, seven generations are abbreviated, and from Takeda Nobushige, three generations are abbreviated, from there, the name Takeda Nobutora – Ohigashi (read as Daitou) Hisanosuke are added to reach Kunitugu, from Kunitugu to Gonzaemon, then abbreviation of 12 generation to connect to Takeda Souumemon. If you add all of this, it is actually 36th generations so it’s all makes sence, does it? Hey hey, wait a minute. If that is the case, it doesn’t match the previously listed line of lineage in the transmission book. Plus, the name Ohigashi Hisanosuke appeared, in fact, appeared after Showa era (1925-1989) and even the existence of this person is under suspicion. It is quite obvious that line of lineage in the transmission book has been borrowed by Soukaku from his own family line of lineage, i.e. from Seiwa Genji through Takeda clan of Kai to his generation. The reason for the absence of Saigou Tanomo’s or Hoshina Kintoku’s names seem to be this.

In turn, theory was proposed that Daitoryu was actually transmitted from Sokaku’s grandfather Souuemon, then adding Oshikiuchi which was taught by Hoshina Kintoku, Soukaku newly changed Daitoryu Jujitu to Daitoryu Aiki Jiujitu. But this theory is not right either. Because if this is true, why the lineage list left by Sokaku lack any writing of his grandfather? For the record, I was allowed to check the lineage list, all preserved in the house of current Soke, Takeda Masanobu Shihan, but in start, it say monjin (inside gate student) of Onoha Itto ryu Shibuya Touma, Takeda Sokaku and there is nothing written about anything before that. As far as it can be seen from this, it only show that Sokaku received Transmission Licence (Menkyo) of Onoha Itto ryu from Shibuya Touma, another licence from Hoshina Kintoku. Then, it turn out that only lincence (menkyo) Soukaku obtained is from two of Shibuya Touma and Hoshina Kintoku. In such case, this will completely contradict the previously listed lineage line in the transmission book.

When what is the thing which Sokaku learned from Hoshina Kintoku? The note left by Previous Soke Tokimune contains writing of Kumitachi (Translator, Kumi-Cross Tachi-Sword, don’t know what that mean) but this is definitely taught by Hoshina Kintoku. And it may be possible that he learnt jujutu technique which became the basis of inspiration for Daitoryu. Techniques such as Shihou Nage or Yonkajyou cannot be seen in other styles but how these thing came about, I will write in other article. Anyway, it is quite definite basically to consider the actual founder to be Takeda Sokaku.

[Vapour]

Wonder 2 coming next.

I still think this should be a separate thread because it got nothing to do with HKD and because all the trolling/spaming this thread has generated.

[Nathan Scott]

Mr. Hajime,

You are spending a great deal of time and effort to translate these pages. I'd like to ask you why? Who is the author, and why do you think that the information is so important?

I ask because the section you've posted is poorly researched and does not seem to contain any original research that has not already been published in English all over the place. It is also full or romaji spelling errors and mistranslations - so many that it would take a very long time to correct them all. I don't mean any offense to Hyakutake-san if he is the one helping you, as I'm sure he is a capable translater. For example, how the kanji for "Chikanori" end up being pronounced that way is beyond me, since the kanji used by all the Japanese sources I've seen all read "Chikatoku".

There are actually a number of Japanese texts on Daito ryu that would provide us all with much more valuable information than the unsubstantiated opinions of whoever wrote this webpage. Why not spend your time working on these instead?

Just curious - no offense intended,

[Vapour]

Originally posted by Nathan Scott
Mr. Hajime,

You are spending a great deal of time and effort to translate these pages. I'd like to ask you why? Who is the author, and why do you think that the information is so important?

I ask because the section you've posted is poorly researched and does not seem to contain any original research that has not already been published in English all over the place. It is also full or romaji spelling errors and mistranslations - so many that it would take a very long time to correct them all. I don't mean any offense to Hyakutake-san if he is the one helping you, as I'm sure he is a capable translater. For example, how the kanji for "Chikanori" end up being pronounced that way is beyond me, since the kanji used by all the Japanese sources I've seen all read "Chikatoku".

There are actually a number of Japanese texts on Daito ryu that would provide us all with much more valuable information than the unsubstantiated opinions of whoever wrote this webpage. Why not spend your time working on these instead?

Just curious - no offense intended,

Firstly I don't live in Japan. Secondly, hyakutake is away teaching abroad at the moment so I tried it myself. Because I have no trouble understanding Japanese, my translation is quite fast as long as I don't care much about my English.

Thirdly it is my first draft of translation and it is pretty much impossible to get correct pronoucination of Japanese name from kanji alone as we have multiple pronounciation for each kanji. As I said, if I tried to produce perfect work, it would never be done because I can't be bothered to do research of correct name of people which is related to Daitoryu which would take ages. I will certainly appreciate any correction to my English. By the way, I made an attempt to keep the sequence of sentence the same with Japanese and that wasn't easy I tell you.

Forthly, he mention a specific historic research of known koryu styles practiced in Aizu han, which is very useful if you want to dig deeper. Fifthly, he mentione that he was allowed to check the entire line of transmission in the transmission book under permission from one of Daitoryu Soke. Provided that he is no liar, he is certainly someone of proper background. To add more, he deliberately kept the tone of his writing light hearted but his discussion was quite technical (well at least to me) so saying his writing is poorly research is not fair in my view. O.K. may be my poor English made his writing look far worse than it is.

Who is the author. He seems to be a writer who write for number of martial arts magazine. There are few other writing by him in the site and he seem to know far more about koryu than average member of Ebudo which is not suprising as he has access to Japanese material. Anyway, just check his site. As of whether he is a troll or not, I can't say as I haven't seen what content in which he engage in martial arts debate.

Why do I think that is important. Well, this Daitoryu origin being not koryu is quite new to me. As far as I know this "theory" hasn't been much known in English side of internet. As of this HKD debate is concerend, why many of daitoryu people assert line that there are no evidence of Choi doing Daitoryu and any of HKD's claim has no substance while that is the exact same thing the official line of Daitoryu seem to be doing. (Of course, if someone present with confirmation of evidence of existence of Daitoryu, I will apologise). All the threads I have seen of this HKD-Daitoryu debate, not even a single person mentioned the fact that Daitoryu's official history is in as much shaky ground as HKD's one. Plus, if you can read Wonder two, he speculate on the orign of aiki to be from weapon training. That was quite insigtful thing for me as I practice taijiquan where I train staff and broadsword.

Now if you think that withoug any evidences, any assertion is meaningless and likely to be fabrication, then.

HKD - False claim about link to Daitoryu. Probably based on Aikido

Aikido - False claim about the founder "inventing" the arts. Possible McDonald version of Daitoryu with "Peace Love and Harmony.

Daitoryu - False claim about the art being centuries old and the blood line of lineage going back to the imperial family. The Founder charging extorionate amount of money out of the lineage he falsely invented.

P.S. I'm a blue belt in Ki aikido btw. If you have any link which provide us all with much more valuable information please post it here.

[glad2bhere]

Dear Vapour:

As a veteran of more HKD Origins discsussions than I really want to admit to I can probably support your contention in spirit if not in letter. But that will put you on a slippery slope that I don't think anyone really wants to discuss. After all, how many arts that are practiced genuinely qualify as "martial" (military) arts? There are a few rare exceptions like the TSKSR ( and even their lineage is suppose to have a couple of weak spots). But most are derivations from arts or are synthesized reconstructions.

Now, I don't make this observation to troll, or antagonize anyone, or deprecate anyones' chosen art. What I am saying is that if you start down that road asking all arts to pony-up with solid documentation to support some of their claims, you will have a pretty quiet discussion group.

There is also one other issue that concerns me about this particular approach. Once one has demonstrated what I have stated to be true, it often opens the door for some folks to play fast-&-loose with traditions. Their rationale seems to be that such practice as starting your own art but invoking greater age and lineage than you deserve is a well-known Oriental dynamic. Then, of course, its on to assuming titles like "soke" and "shihan" and using terms like "ryu" and "keishi" (sp).

IMVHO I think we should let the Japanese decide what constructs they want to lend credence to and which they don't. Remember, there are still Americans who believe such things as "draw-downs" between cowboys were common events and that Confederate soldiers can still be seen along the tree line at Gettysburg. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Nathan Scott]

Mr. Hajime,

This reply will be tough to keep short, but I'll try my best.

I didn't say that you lived in Japan. As far as translating quickly and not caring about the translation, I'm not sure how to reply to that. Suffice it to say that this is a very unique approach to the "art" of translation. Unfortunately, the translation is so flawed that it is very hard for even me to understand, and I am very familiar with all the subjects being discussed. Some of the names I only figured out because I've seen them mis-translated before, and had to look up the kanji to figure it out previously.

If it makes you feel any better, I've done a fair bit of translation as well, and can sympathize with you in regards to figuring out the intended readings of kanji. However, that is what translation work is all about. A faulty translation is as bad or worse than no translation, since it will simply spread misinformation to other cultures that will be repeated for years to come. Personally, I usually will run my translations by a native speaker at some point, or work in conjunction with a native speaker. They communicate the idea or specialty words to me (most of which I already know), and I select the most appropriate English using my experience and a number of expensive jiten.

As I said, I'd be willing to spend a half-day or so correcting the translation errors in this piece, but my time is limited, and if I'm going to spend a half day on something it will need to be research that is "more valuable".

There have been some discussion of the various Koryu practiced in the Aizu-han. Some of it has been documented here:

Aizu-han extant bujutsu (http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16484)

I have more information in my notes,k but here is quite a bit that has not been translated yet, but is available in Japanese. Also, I believe it is Mori Sensei from DR Takumakai that has made researching the Aizu clan a hobby of his. I'd love to see him publish some of his research.


Fifthly, he mentione that he was allowed to check the entire line of transmission in the transmission book under permission from one of Daitoryu Soke.

If you mean that eimeiroku and shareiroku of Takeda Sokaku, much of it has been published in Japanese. A listing of the more important names in the various eimeiroku is posted on Kondo Sensei's webpage:

http://member.nifty.ne.jp/daito-ryu/eimei.html

Also, 2 or 3 of the eimeiroku are not accounted for, so there is no "complete" listing.

Also, there has been only one Daito ryu "Soke", and that was Tokimune.

However, if the author of this webpage, which for some reason you still haven't provided us with (the information is worthless without the name of who wrote it), has done some original research, we'd all be interested to read it.

I'm sorry you don't agree that the text you have translated is poorly researched. In spite of the translation, the opinions and information is clearly superficial, and his "discoveries" and theories are not exactly ground breaking. As someone who HAS researched Daito ryu to some degree, you'll have to take my word for it.


Who is the author. He seems to be a writer who write for number of martial arts magazine.

Which magazine and which author? If you mean Hiden Magazine, there are a few authors that write about DR there, and much of it is not authoratative.


There are few other writing by him in the site and he seem to know far more about koryu than average member of Ebudo which is not suprising as he has access to Japanese material.

You might be surprised at the level of experience and knowledge some contributors on this site have. Not to imply that I am one of them, but I have a pretty large number of Japanese language budo books, and access to a very large private library full of Japanese and Chinese books and artifacts.

Do you really think that only Japanese have access to Japanese materials?!?


Why do I think that is important. Well, this Daitoryu origin being not koryu is quite new to me.

Daito ryu - Gendai or Koryu? (http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2369)

Just about EVERY koryu art makes some claim to have origins coming from either tengu, yamabushi or some kind of "divine inspiration". But even the majority of exponents of these arts who are of mature age do not really believe these stories. They are simply part of the tradition, legend and lore of the art. On the other hand, like in the case of Daito ryu, it is *possible* that some amount of inspiration or transmission was passed down from centuries ago, but even Kondo Sensei (who is head of the mainline of DR) admits that Takeda Sokaku *created* the name Daito ryu for his art, which is said to be a compilation of the Takeda family art, the Aizu Oshikiuchi, and Sokaku's own experience. Whether you or anyone else believes this or not is not really all that important to the members of Daito ryu. This is simply part of their oral tradition. If some of it can be proved wrong, I suspect Daito ryu people would like to know about it. Otherwise, take it for what it is.

Sometime between 1875 and 1912, Sokaku had been using the name "Yamato ryu", which is not a different name, but rather an alternate reading of Daito ryu. I'm surprised you wouldn't know that being fluent in Japanese, since the kanji for Dai is very common, and well known phrases like "Yamato Damashii" use this kanji with that reading.

Anyway, after 1912, he started to use the name Daito ryu. But just because the name changed doesn't mean the transmission is necessarily gendai.


As far as I know this "theory" hasn't been much known in English side of internet.

It's not a theory. I've rarely read or heard of anyone in Daito ryu claiming that the art was Koryu. I'm not sure they really care how old it really is, to be honest.


As of this HKD debate is concerened, why many of daitoryu people assert line that there are no evidence of Choi doing Daitoryu and any of HKD's claim has no substance while that is the exact same thing the official line of Daitoryu seem to be doing.

First of all, your references to HKD and Daito ryu in your first post and later posts is why I put this thread here.

Secondly, you have a point to a degree. But there is documented evidence and physical evidence to support Daito ryu's claim up to Takeda Sokaku. Everything ealier than Sokaku is unsupported tradition, though much of it does make sense.

Conversely, there is NO evidence at all that Choi ever met Sokaku or trained in Daito ryu. None at all, outside of some vague similarities in the curriculum. Sokaku and Jigoro Kano were probably the two most influential and famous jujutsu exponents in the Meiji and Taisho periods in Japan. It's not surprising that someone of that period might have heard of them and wanted to claim a connection.

Origin of Daito ryu (http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17048)


Plus, if you can read Wonder two, he speculate on the orign of aiki to be from weapon training.

This is actually also somewhat well known. Sokaku specialized in weapons until about 1875. Arts prior to this time mostly used some version of the term "aiki" in their weapon arts. If this mystery author has any research on the subject in his "wonder 2" section, that also may as well be interesting to read. But everyone has opinions, and this fact does not mean that everyone wants to hear them! Educated opinions are usually welcome though.


Daitoryu - False claim about the art being centuries old and the blood line of lineage going back to the imperial family.

Again, I haven't really read or heard of anyone IN Daito ryu that has tried to strongly sell the public this story. The "legend" has been publisized, but it has not been presented as documented fact. Take if for what it is worth.


The Founder charging extorionate amount of money out of the lineage he falsely invented.

Actually, the founder (may have) charged a lot of money for what he could do, not so much what his claimed lineage was (though he is of Takeda/Minamoto lineage). Sokaku was famous for his skills, not his claims.


P.S. I'm a blue belt in Ki aikido btw. If you have any link which provide us all with much more valuable information please post it here.:rolleyes:

Congratulations on your blue belt. I never got one.

More information can be found here:

http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=13

Why don't ya give that forum search engine a whack, read around a bit, then translate for us any information your mystery author has written that has NOT been covered on this site. We'd be interested in reading it. I'd also be happy to point you towards some more authoratative Japanese sources for you to translate if you are looking to spend time on such things. Good translations are always welcome.

Regards,

[Vapour]

I'm bit drunk at the moment so if I step out of line I apologise.

For the mystery author just go to the home page of the site. Here you go

http://www.budoshop.co.jp/bh-index2003.html

But why din't you use delete keys on http?. It is on the right hand side of your keyboard.

As I say, I found this site interesting. I certainly grant you that there probably are far better research available in Japanese. But isn't it bit pointless to bring this up in a *English* *internet* forum.

I link an internet site which is in Japanese which had quite concise summary of topic of Daitoryu which I find it informative which I translated. Then you come up with lines that "those argument/research is nothing new if you have access to Japanese material". Dahh.

Firstly, as far as English interent forum goes, if it is not accessible by interent and not in English, isn't it bit pointless to point that out unless you actually provide the link or trnalstate teh content? You stated that there are better Japanese material. This seem to imply that these materials are not in internet, then what is the point of comparing it when the mateiral I pulled are accesible through internet.

As of your criticism of my translation, which I accept is valid but I specifically made it clear I will just give a shot and I will update it so you criticisng the point which I made in the first place. What are you trying to get at? Are you saying I'm too correct in my initial statement that I give a shot?

All you said is that my translation is bad (which I pretty much implied in the first place) then say that there are better Japanese material (which seems to imply that these material are not avialable in English espeically in internet), then say that these argument is old in Japan (which seems to imply that it is not old as far as non Japanese world is concerened). At least it wasn't old to me and quite few aikido and hapkido people I come across wouldn't have a clue).

Now, even though I accept many of your criticisms, your critisim is bit too obious boardering on pointless. I just can't fail to notice that you somehow did not debate any actual topic which has been raised by this article. And I have slight feeling that you are beating around the bush. Even though you said that his work is poorly researched, you never referred to single line in his argument and or stated that you disagree with him on particular point or what he stated is factually incorrect.

Another thing, I don't have to point out the imporatnce of going for the source material in historical research. He state that he actually examined the actual Densho and stated what he saw. I think the information he provided deserve some credit but you still say theare are better info and this is nothing new.

In my experience, this happen, when someone don't really like what they hear but can't find the fault in the argument so they decided to attack something which is totally obvious and beyone debate.

To be honest, I have seen extremly similar line in HKD/TKD trolling.
"Master **** never denied their link to Choi" or "General Choi never denied he learned karate." "Who care about lineage. "

I guess 7W of Daitoryu don't deserve a separate thread but belong firmly in HKD-Daitoryu thread.

Btw, if you can edit my awful translation, I certainly appreciate it. :)

[Vapour]

Originally posted by glad2bhere
Dear Vapour:

As a veteran of more HKD Origins discsussions than I really want to admit to I can probably support your contention in spirit if not in letter. But that will put you on a slippery slope that I don't think anyone really wants to discuss. After all, how many arts that are practiced genuinely qualify as "martial" (military) arts? There are a few rare exceptions like the TSKSR ( and even their lineage is suppose to have a couple of weak spots). But most are derivations from arts or are synthesized reconstructions.

Now, I don't make this observation to troll, or antagonize anyone, or deprecate anyones' chosen art. What I am saying is that if you start down that road asking all arts to pony-up with solid documentation to support some of their claims, you will have a pretty quiet discussion group.

There is also one other issue that concerns me about this particular approach. Once one has demonstrated what I have stated to be true, it often opens the door for some folks to play fast-&-loose with traditions. Their rationale seems to be that such practice as starting your own art but invoking greater age and lineage than you deserve is a well-known Oriental dynamic. Then, of course, its on to assuming titles like "soke" and "shihan" and using terms like "ryu" and "keishi" (sp).

IMVHO I think we should let the Japanese decide what constructs they want to lend credence to and which they don't. Remember, there are still Americans who believe such things as "draw-downs" between cowboys were common events and that Confederate soldiers can still be seen along the tree line at Gettysburg. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

If you can't show it, shouldn't one remain silent. I thought steping out from this line is a slippery slope.

As far as observing HKD-Daitoryu line, I pretty much consider that HKD claim to be fabrication. I also read the interview of Choi in which he not only claim to be the chief instructor of Daitoryu and the leader of the demonstration team of Sokaku's Hawai trip, but also to be an martial arts instructor of Japanese royal family. I thought that was boardering on absurd.

Then I come across a site which show that Daitoryu's claim is as much shaky ground as HKD and this never seemed to be mentioned by Daitoryu people when they troll with HKD people.

So either they are not aware of this which is what I naively assumed when I posted the link, or they know it but decided not to mention it which doesn't speak well of their honesty in debate.

Now when I put this link up, suddenly I get a guy telling me that this is so well known stuff and, in fact, senior people actually are honest and acknowledge this despite the fact that the official line is still Daitoryu is nearly millenium old while at the same time mocking TKD/HKD is 2000 years old line. I'm having a dejavu. I saw a similar line when some people mock HKD's official claim about 2000 years line then a HKD guy came up and say that his grad master never denied the link to Choi. I even get mocked for being a blue belt newb while as far as historical examination goes, there are little point in rank seniority.

Hello? Am I alone in feeling that this lineage debate is absolute pile of dung.

[Nathan Scott]

Jesus. You know what, go ahead and post all your translations here if you want. I won't criticize it any further or offer any comments of corrections. Have fun.

What I said before was that the information you've translated, and the questions the mystery author of the aritcle asks, have already been addressed IN ENGLISH. Not Japanese. English. If you actually look at the links that I took the time to include to you in my last post, you would know this.

But you obviously have some kind of agenda, so go ahead with your campaign and we'll sit it out and see where it goes. If it ends up having nothing to do with Korean Arts, I'll move this to a new thread.

The host of the budoshop page these translations are coming from is a "researcher of classical martial arts" named Yoshimine Yasuo. The individual essays on his site are not signed, so I guess it is safe to assume that he is the mystery writer of the whole site, including this one, if anyone else cares. I can't find much on him on the web in English or Japanese, so who knows.

[glad2bhere]

Dear Nathan:

I guess I'm with you. Past experience has taught me that these discussions won't actually go anywhere --- maybe in circles--- but who am I to get in the way of another persons' project? As you say, lets' let the project move ahead and see what turns up?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Vapour]

Oh, well. I guess, I pretty much killed this thread.

Anyway, about mystery writer. I assumed that you can read Japanese as you criticised my translation. So I was puzzled by your comment about the mystery author when I posted the link which state the author's background. Anyway, just in case you missed it.

http://www.budoshop.co.jp/bh-index2003.html

His name is Yoshimine Yasuo. Born 1956. Practice Daitoryuaikijutu and Kukishin ryu. He also have studied various jujitu arts and staff arts. In 1993, he started Nihon Heihou Koubukai.

[Nathan Scott]

Oh, well. I guess, I pretty much killed this thread.

Yeah, pretty much.


Anyway, about mystery writer. I assumed that you can read Japanese as you criticised my translation.

I critisized your translation because I am a native English speaker, who has a lot of exposure to Japanese, and I still could not understand what it said. Just because a translation makes sense to you does not mean that anyone else will understand it.


So I was puzzled by your comment about the mystery author when I posted the link which state the author's background. Anyway, just in case you missed it.

http://www.budoshop.co.jp/bh-index2003.html

I didn't miss the link. After you posted this link, I replied with the author's name. Why should I have to sit here and back-space hack a Japanese webpage to discover who the author is? Why you posted a link to it but did not just simply offer the author's name in the first place, which was what I kept asking for, is the real mystery. Only after I posted his name here did you finally decide to write something about him. Interesting.

Personally, I believe you are a troll. But since we have two pages of discussion on this subject, and you are likely to keep prodding this subject until you get further responses, I'll create a new thread just for this.

[Vapour]

Hmmm, so you can read Japanese and saw the link I posted in response to your question about the mystery author but you still had to ask for the mystery author and your excuse is "Why should I have to sit here and back-space hack a Japanese webpage to discover who the author is?".

I really have to wonder whether you really bothered to click the link. If you did, the profile of the author will pop in the front of screen so you can't miss it unless you have problem with your sight.

Who is the real trol here I wonder. ;)

Anyway, I don't understand why you have to separate this thread after you attached original thread into HKD thread. I have a feeling you haven't read the link before I did my translation. Unfortunately, the attachment did lead to the topic dominated by moral correctness of Aikijujitu people criticising HKD claim desipte their lineage claim being equally dubious. But certainly, after that, this thread probably belong to HKD thread.

As a moderator, it is your discretion to merge or separate some threads when you find it appropriate. You may be the power that be but i think it is within my right to ask you to restore the original title of the thread I created, "Seven Wonders of Daitoryu".

Since you separated the thread, I will do the translation. Plus, I will only sumarise the point made by the pages. Trying to do exact translation is just not good idea. Aside from my English, trying to translate japanese into English is real pain in the arse especially if one try to maintain the sequence of sentence. My English usually makes sence aside from few gramatical error. The reason my translation was incomprehensible was partly to do with time, partly to do with the fact that I attempted to be faithful to the original japanese sentences. Japanese often utter, reason and make argument in the way most English speaker goes WTF. It's not uncommon that Japanese sentence do not make logical sence because the speaker change his mind while continuing his sentence with "," . It's possible because Japanese syntax is opposite of English. Only pitty is that you don't get the light hearted tone of that page, which is probably not possible to be translated anyway.

[Nathan Scott]

Hajime,


Anyway, I don't understand why you have to separate this thread after you attached original thread into HKD thread.

I don't understand why you're (still) complaining. You insisted that this had nothing to do with Hapkido, so I finally made an independent thread for you to play in.

It doesn't look like you and I are going to see eye to eye on anything, but if you don't have something constructive to contribute - just don't post anything (or post somewhere else). If you have anymore crap to say about me, write to me personally.

Regards,

[Vapour]

[Edited per prior warning. NS]

[Vapour]

Here comes another hash job at translation. This time I didn't much care about preserving Japanese structure so it is probably easier to read. If you don't like my tranalstion, Please email all complaints to

nsync_rulz@aol.com

"Wonder 2. How Aiki was born?

In other article, I have written that Aiki is Kenjutu concept which was applied to Taijutu. But this conclusion comes from analysing aiki itself afterward. So the question is how Sokaku created Aiki as a technique. How did he manage to transfer the concept of sword work into art of unarmed combat?

The key to this secret is in the structure of aiki, especially in the most basic aiki-age-ryote tori in zaho. I have explained that this technique is to attack neck while both of your hand being restrained. In this technique in fact the same principle as the principle of Sankakuku (or Tenshin seiden) in sword style such as Mutoryu are at work. Sankakuku (Triangle) point to you eyes, your opponent’s throat and your tanden which form triangle lines. In Mutoryu, you must draw the line from tanden to throat by your sword. That is when you take stance of seigan, the bottom of sword is at the height of tanden, the tip of the sword is at the height of throat and you charge at your enemy by lining your eyes, tanden and the tip of the sword together. So if you switch the body of sword to opponent arm (i.e. the direction of attack), the tip of sword as the opponent throat, then technique get transformed to aikiage. In zaho, restrained hand is at the height of tanden, so you collapse the structure from tanden through arm to the throat, and metuke (eyeing) is basically at opponent’s throat. That is basically same as thrusting the tip of the sword into the throat from the bottom, and the principle of stance is exactly same as Sankakuku of Muto-ryu. So the question is where did Sokaku learned the concept of Sankakuku? If Sankakuku was in Mutouryu, then it is probably safe to assume that the same concept existed in Ittoryu. For that matter, even in Hokushin Ittoryu, there is concept which correspond with Sankkaku. In this style, in seigan stance, by placing the bottom of sword in front of tanden, it emphasise placing one’s mind to tanden. In such case, one could speculate that Sokaku might have learned this from Shibuya Toma. Moreover, the basic stance of forward stance are probably obtained from Ittoryu as well.

At that period, Onoha ittoryu was spread around entire country and shinai (bamboo sword) had started to become large part of training. Even in Sokaku’s sword exploit, there are many challenge match using shinai. So if Sokaku obtained Sankakuku and forward stance from Shibuya Toma in Youkikan dojo, within dojo, they probably maintained style much closer to older one.

On the other hand, teaching of Sankakuku does not exist in Onoha ittoryu of tugaru line. Seigan in Tugaru line of Onoha ittoryu, elbow is stretched forward without locked out and have deep hip stance and the tip of the sword are height of the eyes and the bottom of the sword is at the height of Suigetu. So it is very aggressive Seigan. So which of this seigan comes first? I personally was greatly troubled by this. And I haven’t reached conclusion on this matter. But previously mentioned teaching of Sankakuku has common thread with Nenryu’s teaching of Taichuken, plus if you slide the sword forward in the line of sword, it will naturally become seigan of Tugaru line of Onoha Ittoryu so I’m supposing that there was some form of transmission relating to Sankakku in the past.

So if the basic principle of aikiage is based on Sankakuku of Mutouryu, where that special body movement when you apply Aiki come from. To say the conclusion first, I think it come from staff training of Choku shinkage ryu. The reason for this is that the way one move body in aikiage is exactly same as the way you swing the staff, plus to apply aiki to anyone accurately require strength of hip and the purpose of staff training was to train not arm but to train hip and back. (If so, it is easy to see why Sakawa Souhan has swing iron bar every day). The staff exercise of Choku shinkage ryu was invented by Sakakibara Kenkichi and everyone who entered the school are forced to do this practice. At the time of Sakakibara Kenkichi’s dojo, the core of training was staff exercise and jigeiko and the current training routine such as Houtei or Tou no Kata was not being practiced then. Sokaku was uchideshi (inside student) of Sakakibara Kenkichi for two years so he no doubt has practice staff every day. Even at old age, Sokaku had the strength of hip to lift big man, and this strength probably come from staff exercise.

Wonder 3. What was the entire content of Daitoryu system like?

Densho left by Sokaku are, Hiden Mokuroku, Aiki no Jutu, Hi Ogi, Kaishyaku Souden, Kaiden. But it is not like all of these densho was there from the beginning. When Sokaku first permitted Kyoju Dairi, there were only Hiden Mokuroku and Hiden Ogi. From there different densho has been added in time and eventually reach the current collection. As I stated previously, this is one of evidence that Daitoryu wasn’t completely established as one whole system.

At current point, it is know that only Ueshiba Morihei Okina received Aikino Jutu. Only Hisa Takuma Shihan and Toneyakata Masao Shihan received Kaiden. If you take this at face value, since only these two has received kaiden, these two must know the entire content of Daitoryu system. (but this is also subtle matter. Hisa Shihan received Kaiden and Hiden Ogi without receiving Hiden Mokuroku). The reason that only Morihei Okina received Aiki no Jutu is unknow but you could think it as sign that Morihei Okina was considered as really important prospective member. So would it be reading too much if I suppose that Hisa Shihan who had studied under Morihei Okina was taught something which wasn’t even give to Morihei Okina, i.e. Kaiden techniques (or more like creating entire new technical collections). When Morihei Okina claimed his own style, it is said that Sokaku has gone berserk so this might explain why.

But anyway, more important fact is that, currently there is no one who has studied entire transmission of Daitoryu. Both Hisa Shinan and Toneyakata shinan who received Kaiden has not awarded Kaiden to anyone. Techniques are written in densho so if you learned all technique in Kaiden does it mean you have received Kaiden as in the sence that you have learned the entire content of the system? But this is not necessarily the case. Those 88 kajyo technique in Kaiden is the highest among densho but in actual transmission (Jituden) are these technique the highest or is there any other technique higher than these technique in actual transmission? Therefore, at current state, the content of Daitoryu’s entire system are lost. It is possible to recover it partially from Densho but it is impossible to eliminate the personal interpretation of interpreter in such case so cannot be regarded as true authentic transmission.

At current point, all Daitoryu styles do not reveal the entire teaching curriculum. Actually, even among shinans, there are more people who do not know the entire content of their own system than people who do. Because the entire content of the system is lost, there are number of cases where all sort of personal interpretation and distortion get added to the system. (Opps)

Wonder 4. Why the contents of transmission writing (densho) do not match the actual transmission?

This is another difficult question. It is related to wonder three. Currently, there is no school which teach technique exactly according to actual densho given by Sokaku. This is another aspect of Daitory which is decisively different from other Kobudou. Strictly speaking, Okami Kaneyoshi sensei practice techniques in Soden 11 series exactly the same. But other than that, there are no one who practice technique according to the content of Hiden Mokuroku or Hiden Ogi.

To begin with, Soden 11 series is said to be compilation Morihei Ueshiba Okina’s Akatukiryu jujutu and Sokaku’s Daitoryu’s technique being immediately photographed after the lesson. But there is a theory that majority of technique are in fact from Sokaku. As of myself, when I first time visited Okami Sensei, I was allowed to look into Soden 11 series and it included many rather complex and mysterious technique and these technique tend to concentrate in earlier part than later part, so it can be inferred that majority of technique come from sokaku. Anyway, Soden 11 series is the only exact record of Sokaku’s technique so it is reasonably to assume that Daitoryu’s techniques was changing all the time and Sokaku’s perspective has shifted through time. Therefore, it is likely that teaching was done according to densho in earlier period but later, the arts moved away slowly from the entire idea of kata/form and, on the other hand, perfection of technique through Aiki has been added. Sakawa Sohan testified that when he was learning, “Takeda sensei never taught through kata” so exact teaching was different from densho and the main teaching core was in aiki technique. Kaisyaku Soden was created after Showa. But because the technique and entire focus of arts has shifted while at the same time passing of Densho was according to the manner of previous writing, so this seems to have cause the difference between the content of densho and actual transmission in practice.

Moreover, if one read Hiden Mokuroku, contents of technique are usually not as different as other koryu jujitu. Plus, in Mokuroku, it is written not as Aiki Jujutu but as Daitoryu Jujitu so one could interpret this as the sign that Sokaku taught Aiki and Jujitu separately. In fact, Sato kanji Shihan who entered the school in Meiji 35 was told by Sokaku “I won’t teach you Aiki but I will teach you Jujutu”. What Sokaku really mean by that. Did he really consider jujut and aiki separate entity? I do not think so. It is rather difficult to think that fundamental principle differ from Sho Den to O den. Rather it is more reasonable to see it as technical change through period. That is Sokaku introduced limit to the teaching content of Shoden only AFTER he perfected and established Aiki as seprate skill.

Furthermore, technique commonly known as ikkajyo or Nikajyo is not in densho. So this type of categorising technique probably was introduced relatively in later period. According to Yamamoto Ittosai sensei, Sokaku was calling the technique equivelant to ikkajyo as Itoretu, nikajyo as nitoretu. Anyway, since these things do not appear in Densho, it seems to be categorization invented for convenience. Currently, each shiden and shihan do not have the same categorization of ikkajyo and nikaryo. Some of it seems to even have influence from aikido or hakko ryu. To make the matter more interesting, the number of technique under this categorisation has gone up after the death of Sokaku and so I find it rather comical to think that you are at higher level of daitory if you know the technique with higher number. The reason such funny situation arise is primary because no one really know entire system of Daitoryu. (Opps, I shouldn’t have said that.)

Wonder 5. Where that massive lesson fees has disappeared to?

This is really unsolvable. There are 20 plus people to receive Kyoju dairi. To receive Kyoju Dairi, initially you needed up to Hiden Ogi, then later you needed Hi Ogi as well. The lesson fee for Hi Ogi was several hundred yen. In current term, it is about several million yen (about several 10 thousand dollar). He futhere demanded each student Kyoju dairi teach 3 yen (about 300 dollar) membership fee. So Sokaku must have received amount of money where he can play around for all he want.. Moreover, for those two who received Kaiden, Sokaku took six thousand yen (600 thousand dollar) each for lesson fees. To begin with, why did Sokaku needed to take that kind of massive amount of money in the first place.

As of money, he asked massive amount of donation from Horikawa Suemich Shihan. According to the story, Sokaku said “I’m going to built my own bronze statute so I need the building cost. If you do, I will give you Menkyo Kaiden” so Horikawa apparently paid it. So far, ther is no story of Sokaku’s bronze statue being built and the promises of Horikawa receiving Menkno Kaiden has just went nowhere. So what did Sokaku use money for which he collected by doing all these things? Some people joked that he spend it on drinking and whoring but at that period, it is impossible to spend several 10 million yen of money into such activities. In that case, did he invest money somewhere. In such case, there is possibility of massive secret treasure of Sokaku hidden somewhere in Japan. :D

Wonder 6. What is the real skill level of Sokaku?

How good Takeda Sokaku really was as budoka?. The art Sokaku was best at was sword so there are many story related to his sword exploit. One of it is Nihonmatu, incident. In earlier part of Meiji Era at the place called Nihonmatu in Fukushima Province, he fought against 30 builders with sword. He was injured but he managed to cut 8 to 9 people and escaped. So as far as sword goes, if he really managed to pull off something like that, he must have been rather exceptional swordman. Other than that, he competed in many challenge match and he seems to have near flowless record. When he fought against Shimoe Shyutaro know as japan's number one master of thrust (tuki), sokaku quickly manage to hit grobe. After that the match was said to go into stalemate. So even in Shinai match (bamboo sword match, i.e. kendo), he was one of the best in Japan.

Then, how good was he in jujutu, i.e. unarmed combat. Unfortunately, record of Sokaku having challenge match with other budoka in unarmed combat is very little. As far as known, one story of him winning against Okinawan karateka in Kyushu and another one at frail age of 80 where he fougth against midle aged judo shihan who Sokaku threw away flying. Within Lineage list, there are name of Judo and jujitu shihan so Sokaku may have fought against these judoka and defeated them before them entering Daitoryu. But compare to his sword exploit, there are very little. Even about the match with karateka, authencity of the story is quite suspect and even if the story is true, we don't know the skill level of this karateka so you can't judge sokaku's skill in unarmed combat from this. Plus, Sokaku was active from Meiji to early Showa period and at that time, Karate wasn't that common so it is unlikely to think that Sokaku prepared himself for striking tactic of karate. At that time, general strategy of unarmed fight involved throwing after grappling or punching after grappling so that is the situtation jujutu technique were aiming at.
Moreover, there is a theory of Sokaku travelling Okinawa according to "Sokaku ryurou" by Imano so in that case, it is not far off to assume some connection to karate. But if such is the case, there should be some influece of karate if not in the attack technique but at least in defence against karate type strategy such as frontal kick. But, after his supposed trip to Okinawa, Daitoryus presumed defence strategy only added ushiro ryote tori, Kata tori and yokomenuchi to toguchi of koryu. So even though there are change/addition to technique, there is no indication of karate influence. (As of yokomenuchi, it is quite obvious that it took inspiration from sword work. This can be seen from how the response to yokomenuchi works.) That is why I said match with karateka in Kyushu is rather dubious.

In conclusion, there is no doubt that Sokaku was exceptional swordman but his skill in unarmed combat is unknow.

Just to add to this, the previously mentioned book, "Sokaku ryurou", it state that some judoka choked Sokaku, but in the said book there are too much unrealistic martial arts myth/bravado stories so this story too is dubious.

Wonder 7. Who was the true successor?

The Last wonder. Who was the person Sokaku wished to be the successor?

Before discussing anything, there is issue about whether Sokaku really was thinking about passing his arts to be properly passed on as style (ryuha). Was he thinking in term of sole successor which is not uncommon in Koryu Budo. Personally, I don't think Sokaku was thinking in that term. This is because Daitory never really been established as style and sort of developed and perfected by Sokaku way up to his later part of his life.

As previously stated, Sokaku produced 20 plus Kyoju Dairi, two Kaiden and he gave Yamamoto Ittosai sensei (Kyouju Dairi) the title "Soushu" and a sword and a Purple Emblem. It seems that just like his technique has changed, he didn't really maintain consistent idea about successor.

Probably, Sokaku's idea was not sole-successor-system but more like licencing system. That is those who received Kyouju dairy are responsible for instructing those follow aiki path and he probably didn't have intention to pass on his arts to only one person.

So the debate about who is the true sucessor or who got the true transmission is rather pointless. As long as one can trace his or her learning to Sokaku, everyone is true sucessor whose aiki expression differ with their personal interpretation. That is my view.

Here it's end. I stressed that it's my *personal* opinion. I'm not claiming I'm 100% right da most correct man in the whole universe. Just think it as someone raising interesting topics for the future discussion."

[Vapour]

Personally, the most interesting point was that staff (or iron bar) training being essential to tracing origin of aiki.

I practice taijiquan and in chinese Martial arts, staff trainining (often using iron bar) is extremly common method of trainig "fa jing". Fa jing is sort of tits of Kung Fu. Fa means to generate or to issue. Jing is real power which is opposite of li (dead or brute strength). One can only do fajing when you relax your body completly in perfect alignment. Moreover, chinese long sword is consdered as the taichi weapon wheare you learne the footwork and arts of blending.

Here is a quote from taichi classic

http://www.taichichuan.co.uk/information/classics_lun_text.html

Does anyone know what staff work mentioned in 7 wonder is like. I really love to compare it with xingyi and taichi staff work I know.

[Vapour]

[Edited per prior warning. NS]

[Vapour]

[Edited per prior warning. NS]

[Vapour]

Opps

"Few indicated that they find the page interesting. " = "Some indicated that they find the page interesting"

Probably Fruedian slip. Sorry spaming. :D

[Vapour]

...I will follow his title "Nihon Heiho Kobukai/Yoshimine Uasuo" by translating articles which I found it to be interesting from this guy's site. There are nearly 100 articles on this site.

[Edited per prior warning. NS]

So here it come. This should be much easier to read.

"Budo Free Talk of Yoshimine Yasuo

Number 16 – What is Hiden (Secret Transmission), (2001/01/20)

It seems that the words Hiden (not the title of magazine I contribute, mind you) or Koden (Oral Transimission) has been hugely misunderstood in recent time. This is because the term “Hiden” is very vague plus people often tend to use this word with sort of aspiration. This is actually product of wishy-wishy romanticism because this word is used often when people seek imaginary martial arts element in unknown world which can’t be seen in actual technical system. But this is pretty much same as what commonly called Blue Bird Syndrome. (Translator. This is based on a fairly tale where two brother and sister wonder in eternity in search of this blue bird of happiness). Blue Bird syndrome point to the case where one can’t differentiate between real self and idealised non existence self and seek (psychologically as well as in actual behaviour) this idealised version of self. That is, a person believe without a shred of doubt that if s/he gain hiden or koden outside the technical system in the real world, s/he immediately become stronger. So he directs himself in search of this and discard the reality. So you could call this Hiden Syndrome.

To make matter worse, in books dealing with Kobudo (Japanese martial arts which can trace style’s direct lineage to feudal period) are rife with reckless use of the words Hiden or Koden and this encourage Hiden Syndrome. For example, “Further mention of this matter have to be omitted because it is Koden” or “I will reveal Hiden which has been passed on for several hundred years” and so on. Basically it is hyperbole advertising. While back there is this Shihan, who is know to make hyperbole statements, published a book of his style with statement in the cover of the book saying “I will reveal Hidden of our system which was passed on to single person in each generation”. Later, in private, it is said that he laughingly stated “How the ¤¤¤¤ should I reveal the secret of our system in a book which cost only 1200 yen (about ten dollar)”, i.e. he was taking piss out of the mass. And it is not uncommon where some twisted Shihan, “Only for YOU, I will teach special Hiden techniques” and then proceed to teach something outrageously stupid. But there are quite few who still believe that they got the real deal and very happy with it or in worse case, there are those who follow such instuructor ans start to believe that it is o.k. to teach lie in Kobudo. It is really depressing story. But if you sit back and think, if it is Hiden (secret transmission) it ought to be secret including its existence so you only teach it when you need it.

So if someone got real Hiden, he would pretend he doesn’t know it even if he does, i.e. he keep it secret. If you name anything Hiden or Okunowaza (technique of deep), the other people will immediately attempt to analyse it hence so called secret technique will become non-secret. So if someone says “we have this secret transmission”, it is purely for promotional/commercial purpose. I hope people who are reading this aren’t stupid to get duped by trick like this.

Then, what is Koden (Oral transmission)? In short, it is something which express principle of bodily movement or combat. Hence, just knowing it is pointless and you have to train it. In fact, even in modern martial arts or in MMA there are things which is equivalent to Hiden or Koden. They just don’t call it Hiden. For example, in boxing, they teach different tactics against every different type of opponent (quick foot, heavy puncher, left handed and so on). This kind of stuff are written down even in a boxing book you can buy it from book shop. This is same as Hiden. Just because someone else knows it is no big deal. Whether you can apply it depends on quality and quantity of your training.

If there are secret transmissions in boxing, it is each boxer’s finishing blow. Even in baseball, pitcher’s finishing ball are avidly analysed. So it is natural to keep something secret if someone knowing it is not good for you. So existence of Hiden or Koden is quite natural and it is comical if one feel superior just by knowing it.

Moreover, one’s level of skill can be ascertained by what this person hide. For example, if only thing this person has is kata, then this person will try to hide kata or teaching syllabus of his style. If someone got real skill, he can’t be bother if someone find out his kata. There are various cases but in general, people who hasn’t got skill tend to use Hiden or Koden in every second sentences he utter. I personally think that too much secret will diminish Budo.

This is because the meaning Hiden or Koden in modern time is distinctly different from the old day when Budo was purely for war and loosing technique to other style is equivalent to loosing military secret to enemy country in war time. Nowaday, rather than valuing something in term of actual skill and technology, people perceive and value Hiden or Koden purely in term of *information* so something can gain premium of rarity without any relevance to its practicality and that is the problem of concealment. And excessive concealment can only keep thing as it is without any hope of improvement.

To repeat the point, martial arts is not like weapon. It built on basis of very unstable element. Plus, man’s combat mode change over time slowly but relentlessly. For example, even a fight on the street is very different from 30 years ago compared to now. Originally, Japanese in old days hit after grapple or they grapple and throw in a street fight. Hence street fight = grappling. This is probably due to the influence of sumo and judo. But in modern time, a fight means boxing or kickboxing. Probably, the expression “I put kick in” weren’t used in fight 30 years ago and this is definite influence of karate and kickboxing. And in future, I predict that weapon would become common feature and street fight become more dangerous. That is, effectiveness will be measured by ability to cause maximum damage to your opponent. This is how the shift in perception of combat appears.

As I stated previously, if you just trying to maintain status quo, you loose ability to adapt to the world outside. The situation is like the one described in “Kusamakura” written by Natume Souseki, that is "we don’t know where we are or where we are going". Very unstable existence. Same with Budo. You will start to float in fantasy world if you wonder around looking for blue bird of happiness saying stuff like “this is Hiden” or “that is Koden” “this is the final strike”.

In today, for something is to be budo means it has attitude/stance to face the cruel reality outside. And Hiden or Koden used to teach how to cope with such reality. In case of Kobudo, many tactical teaching was Koden. And it was such that if one know Koden the content and quality of training will change. The most common type of Koden dealt with attitude or metuke (eyeing) while performing kata which was designed to let student understand the true intention of kata. So as far as Kobudo is concerned, even the attitude in which student out to go into training is Koden. To show actual example of Koden, if you are closing distance with your enemy, if you charge into your opponent, you get countered. So you have to know how to close distance with foot slowly testing the ground. Plus with this, you can use your leg for attack. So you teach essence and technique of this type of foot work orally in training. That is Koden. And if you know the basic footwork from Koden, then your training will change in its internal quality. That is why it is pointless just to know Koden. Koden which can’t be applied in real is dead Koden. Hiden or Koden doesn’t exist outside of actual techniques. Miyamoto Musashi once wrote a poem that “Essence is like eyebrow, close but unseen.” It is exactly to this point.

It is true that some Hiden or Koden contain technique which could cause sever injury to the oppoent and for this reason, there are occasion in which training methods are modified for safety purpose. But even these type of Hiden or Koden exist just as a extended line of basic technique. So just knowing technique is meaningless. To put it in another words, if you “aspire” Hiden or Koden, that is a sign that your marital arts are in blind ally in term of reality.

In old day, one sword school deliberately taught wrong line of cut to student who has reached certain level. It was a test. Only those who has noticed the mistake are allowed to advanced to next level. Now a day, you can’t do something like that. Originally, Hiden or Koden was ought to be given to people who can think and find his own way. In this sense, everyone has potential to discover Hiden or Koden or its equivalent by themselves. Unfortunately, people who practice Kobudo nowadays lack ability to comprehend. That is there are not many people who try to understand their arts to the point where “this move is done in this way but real intention is that”. The reason for this aside from their individual square brain is that, as previously stated, they only see Budo as mere information. If you give Koden or Hiden to these people, it is like handing out new toys to children. It satisfy their curiosity only.

Anyway, future of Kobudo is not bright. One reason for this is that the original purpose of Koden or Hiden might be lost and teaching content and its level will be eroded further and further. This topic is slightly outside of this article so I will leave it to other occasion but I wish to appeal to others that time has come to serious re-examin what Kobudo and its core ought to be."

[Vapour]

By the way, in 7 Wonders, I don't understand why the author stated that Shino nage goes against the purpose of proper jujutu. Can anyone enlighten me on this?

[Vapour]

Hmmm, moderator deleting comment which critisise his abuse of power. In real world if someone in power start silencing any critism agaisnt them, it is called facism.

Delte this comment if you want. Just for fairness to you, I have informed the Adminstrator of this case. So start preparing explanation. Make up false comment of me if you want. I don't know how the system works but as a moderator you might be able to do that. By deleting my comment, you have partially achieved that.

I hope whatever judiciary or common sence exist in this site would prevail. All you had to do was to take your moderator's hat off when you flame. It is truly unfortunate that someone who appear helpful in the begining even offering to allow me to reedit my translation in draft after 10 min editing restriction for my obvious problem in English would turn out to be something else including making rather sever critisim of my translation.

Aside from that here is another translation of Budo Free Talks of Yoshimine Yasuo. This time I translated this page for other martial arts forum. Might not interest people of this forum but some Aikido or Hapkido people might find this very interesting.

[Quote]

Yoshimine Yasuo - Budo Free Talk

Number 26 – What is Aiki (2002/06/02)

There aren’t many words which are misunderstood to the extent of the world Aiki. It is quite unfortunate that many dubious martial artist use this term purely for their promotional purpose. As of current state, as far as magazine or books are concered, thre are very few which provide correct information about aiki. If there are ten articles about aiki, probably at least eight of them are incorrect.

The reason why the matter has fallen to such sorry state is because aiki is very difficult to master. So only external forms have been transmitted and it is very rare to encounter genuine aiki techniques. Accordingly, even among people who call themselves Shinan (instructor), unfortunately, only few know it. When someone asks “What is aiki”, often, answers are like “This is beyond the description by words” or even “It’s transcendent ability”. (You may not believe me but true). Hopefully, I think more open and modern/enlightened attitude will slowly change this and make aiki easier to learn.

Then, what is aiki? I will write technical or methodological detail in my book so pardon me if I'm brief. But anyway, stuff like magazine tend to describe aiki as something mysterious but in reality, aiki is very scientific. To cut the long story short, if you seek the origin of the word aiki, answer will reveal itself.

I wrote this few time in the magazine “Hiden” but aiki is originally kenjutu (Japanese sword arts) term and it describe a state where you and your opponent’s seichu (central) line is face to face. (This word is used even in modern kendo as in original meaning). Easiest way to see it is to just pick up swords with your partner, hold it in the middle until the tip of the sword face each other. Obviously, this situation is stalemate. So you have to diver your opponent’s tip of the sword. To do this is called “Divert Aiki”. It’s not even incorrect to state that entire koryu kenjutu techniques are based on methodology of diverting aiki. For example, in case of Shinkage ryu (shin=true kage=shadow ryu=style), they often use technique to enter diagonally to divert aiki. In case of Onoha Ittoryu (Ono branch of one blade style.), it’s characteristic is in how to divert tip of the sword by central breakthrough. Aiki of Daitoryu is application of this principle of central breakthrough of Onoha Ittoryu into taijutu. That is, you deliberately force the state of aiki as in sword fight then proceed to break this state through penetrating into centreline of your opponent. Accordingly, the basic stance use the same one as Onoha Ittoryu. And in aiki, attack target are neck and hip (and occasionally chest) and this is, in fact, same as the thrust targets of Onoha Ittoryu.

Therefore, there are broader definition and narrower definition of the term aiki. The broader definition of aiki is the entire methodology of crushing opponent’s attack stance through central penetration. This includes atemi (strike) into upper part of the body. Narrower aiki means techniques of neutralising attack from the contact, exemplified in technique, aiki age (aiki lift).

Now, as of aiki age, presently, even this technique are often misunderstood. Many people confuse this with Kokyuho in aikido. They looks alike but their purpose is completely different. That is Kokyuhou or Tenchinage in akido originally meant atemi into jaw with palm. In Daitoryu, there are no concept to push someone down with charge like in sumo. The correct concept is to uplift your opponent or smash opponent directly below and the techniques which exemplify this fundamental principle are aiki age (aiki lift) and aiki sage (aiki takedown). These two use entire body and are not mere hand techniques. Hence by looking at even one photo, one could tell whether someone has managed to do it or not. Extremely bad example is when one push someone down just by using body weight . If one do aiki age from kneeling position, if someone standing losing balance on top of you even if your back is straight and your haven’t broken your keeling, then it is the real deal. And if you have opportunity to experience aiki age, pay close attention to the feeling when you grab this person’s arm. With someone who can really do this, there are rarely any sensation of grip because there is no collision of power. Accordingly, anyone who push back with force are out of question. And the biggest difference between correct aiki age and the incorrect one are whether one can make the movement smaller and smaller through training. If one try to push back with force or using body weight, one will never be able to do it. That is, true purpose of aiki is to utilise aiki in every taijutu technique by making it smaller and shaper through polishing your technique. That is why I mentioned in other place that if you got wrong teacher, you never make it.

As of side note, it is often said that the secret of aiki age is to “Open palms as in Asagao (morning face, common Japanese flower)” but this is often transmitted incorrectly. “Open palms as in Asagao” in fact point to the entire arm movement in aiki age and not pointing to how one open palm. The reason this theory has spread is probably due either to do with teacher intentionally hid it or someone who hasn’t learned it properly spread it. Once you get used to aikiage, you can do it with your hands closed and the reason one have to open palm is only because it is easier to learn. An important point when you open palm is not to put too much force into your finger. This is bit difficult to get unless demonstrated in practice but in beginner’s level, you open your palm like when you do paper in stone/paper/scissors. When expert do Aikiage, especially little fingers are very relaxed. And often this technique are split between Aiki of Kote, when someone grab your writs, and Aiki of Mune (chest) or Aiki of Karada (Body), when someone grab your collar or other such places but these two are the same. This is also easier to understand in demonstration but if you know the gist of it, the latter one is much easier one to do it.

Daturiki (Relaxlation) is another equally misunderstood word like aiki, and this world is also uttered in sort of aspiration as in the word aiki so I mention about it here just in case. Daturiki doesn’t mean you don’t use muscle. Even in aiki, one is of course using muscle. “To relax” simply means “use only necessarily muscle”. The phrase “To issue ki” is same with this principle.

To add further, when he was alive, Sakawa Sohan swung steel training staff every days and someone said “That is just muscle work”. This is like making speech with your pants down without understanding the fact that aiki as well as koryu kenjutu use entire body movement. In fact, it is natural to arrive at this kind of training if one think about what is needed in Daitoryu. (However, unless one learned proper way to swing sword, one could damage one’s body so I won’t recommend it.)

As stated, aiki is in practice, very scientific. It is true it is based on rather sophisticated principle but it has nothing to do with mysterious transcendantalism. Therefore, to describe aiki mesteriously or even religiously is self evident sign that one hasn’t got proper transmission. It is like someone wondering in amazement at magician's work because he doesn’t know that magic is a trick. For magician, trick is easy to perform. And the fact that aiki is scientific mean that everyone, as long as they practice seriously can master it. To add further, in some part of Daitoryu, it is said that one can master aiki even if you can’t lift anything heavier than chopsticks as long as you receive oral transmission but that is nonsense. This is because the effect of aiki differs according to individuals. Once you got the gist of movement, then you have to reduce the margin of error by applying aiki many many times to various different persons. That is to aim perfection through repetition of movements based on logic. This is the same in any martial arts.

That is it. This time it was rather metaphysical but as I said, I clarify more practical description of technique or theory in detail in my book. So pardon me for that. The next topic will be “utilisation and paradox in form”

[Quote end]

[Vapour]

by the way, I hear that you can recover lost page by google catch. Does anyone know whethere there are any way to recovere deletec comments.

[John Lindsey]

thread closed for administrative review. Mods, lets chat in the admin forum...