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Steve Delaney
16th September 2003, 01:28
I'm currently an Assistant English Teacher (read performing monkey) and I've been in Japan for over five years now and I thought I was tough skinned. (I've been refused tenancy for some apartments in Saitama Pref. just because the Oyasan didn't like foreigners. On another occasion, I had booked tickets for the Twin Towers last December at a local WB multiplex cinema and requested the front row, but somehow ended up at the back of the theatre along side twenty other foreigners. Looks like Jim Crow is alive and well in Japan!)

On Friday, last week (September 12th) I was asked to be a judge for the local municipal Junior High School English speech contest alongside three other AETs. There were about 30 or so competitors taking part and for the most part, their speeches were quite good, for students of their calibre. The AET judges were asked to pick the top seven competitors to enter the Prefectural speech contest.

Here comes the problem; All of the AETs had unanimously picked one student for the top seven since he tried very hard and gave a good presentation. We were told during the score count by the board of education senior supervisors that this particular student that we had picked would have to be disqualified. Why? Because his mother was from the Phillipines. (His mother did not speak English, only Tagalog & Spanish.) :redhot:

The boy was born in Japan, his father is Japanese, he has a Japanese passport and citizenship. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the constitution of this backward country specify that all CITIZENS (Not all residents which is also a pitiful state of affairs) are to be treated with equality?

Isn't what my local board of education did last Friday against the law? I'm pretty sure it is. :nono: Some people might not care, but I hate racism of any form and I ESPECIALLY hate it when it is directed at children who have worked their arses off to find that they aren't eligable because their heredity is not 100% "pure" Japanese.

I'd like to know if what they did was against the law and I'd also like to hear your opinions on this competition that supposedly supports international understanding, while being absolutely and blatantly racist.

I apologise for ranting, I'm just more than a little PO'ed.

P Goldsbury
16th September 2003, 02:17
But what did you do? Did you insist that the boy be selected, or accept the judgment of the prefectural supervisors? You were unanimous, which was a strong position.

I ask because a similar situation once arose here. I was the sole non-Japanese judge at a recitation contest organized by the prefecture. One of the winners came from the local Korean school (supporting the North) and there was much consternation on the part of the other (Japanese) judges. However, they could not overrule the native speaker, so the Korean boy won his prize. His teachers were astonished because no one from the school had ever won a prize before.

Best regards,

renfield_kuroda
16th September 2003, 02:36
Welcome to Japan. Having lived here going on ten years, the first 2.5 as a JET (AET and CIR), from the boonies to the city, I can proudly say that my adopted home is at least as, and in many cases more racist than the USA. And most definitely more xenophobic.
What can you do? Make a big stink? Grin and bear it? Fight the power? Play along?

No easy answers. Perhaps our presence alone, over time, will slowly change this country (for the better? for the worse?) Perhaps Japan will not change, and end up a third-rate power in the shadows of Korea and China...

Regards,

r e n

Steve Delaney
16th September 2003, 02:38
What could I have done, bar mouth off and ensure that I don't get hired for another academic year?

Don't get me wrong, I wanted to so bad, but I am kind of unaware of some of the laws here, barring the obvious.

JimmyCrow
16th September 2003, 02:50
Originally posted by Saitama Steve
...Looks like Jim Crow is alive and well in Japan!

No actually I'm alive and well in Nacogdoches, Texas but I wish I was in Japan.:D

Mekugi
16th September 2003, 03:06
I think Steve is faced with a dilemma that has no easy solutions, albeit having many simple answers. The red tape that they stack up against this type of behavior is so thick, so massive and so engrained into the system that the only way to do away with it is radical change. However, this is Japan and the only radical change you will ever see is at the local McDonalds in their "monthly menue". In this case, they have now proven to a child that there is by no means any type of equality for them, irregardless of their place of birth and only to be stomped by the perception of the powers that be of "what they REALLY are, in the eyes of the public authority". More than one lesson was learned at this ordeal, one that while eventually scar this child one way or the other. It is a pathetic state of the world when government authorities have to launch their own personal campaigns on children- which in this case is the personal campaign of a racist government that holds people hostage to their whims. Then again, if I don't like it, I can "go home gaijin".

Blarg.

-R

P.S. I applaud Steve for not going on a killing rampage.

Vapour
16th September 2003, 03:32
"Theoretically speaking" law esist. In practice, japanese legal system takes sometimes DECADES to sort anything out. English speech competition would be too trivial to go through this process. In such situation, only way is to get some form of media attention but since you relented there are no evidence to back your claim except personal testimonies.

Mate of mine once come across sexual harassment case in one of major university in Japan. The department attempted to pretty much hide what has happened so he informed one of a newspaper he had contact. When the stuff was out in open, thing has sorted out pretty soon after that.

Similar case happened in a provincial university. Problem is that in place like Satuma in your exapmle, news media, business, bureocrat and academia all goes hand in hand and it will take extremly persistent effort to get anything done and having someone to support you inside your organization is a must. That would be out of reach for most foreigners who lived in Japan for only few years. The case was brought to sort of happy ending with the lecture concerned quitting job but it was due to extremly persistent effort by the victim. She also had some support from some lecturers so I assume she or her lawyer knew how to work internal politics of university well.

As of trivia, in japanese civil case, you can lie as much as you want and you will never face legal prosecutions. The law for purjury exist but it has never been enforced except few times when prosecutor wanted to get accused for some other unrelated crime.

Steve Delaney
16th September 2003, 03:36
Believe me, with my temper it wasn't easy to be so controlled.

I'm just pissed off that it happened to a kid. And what pisses me off more is that they claim to be holding this contest for international understanding and relations, and at the same time, they are telling the foreign judges that their opinions on scores are worthless and that the kids who are half, even though they are citizens are for the most part, wothless.

Vapour
16th September 2003, 03:43
In this case, only thing you can do IF YOU WANT TO GET INTO POSSIBLE TROUBLE is to inform the parent of this kid what has happened and IF YOU ARE WILLING, assure them that you will testify what has happened in public (if not in court).

If they want to pursue this case, they will. They, not you, are the only people who could make difference but as I said, they have to be very persistent.

Mekugi
16th September 2003, 04:06
Can you afford to lose your job?? I can't.
Plus, we are just stupid gaijin who don't understand "the system".

-Russ


Originally posted by Vapour
"Theoretically speaking" law esist. In practice, japanese legal system takes sometimes DECADES to sort anything out. English speech competition would be too trivial to go through this process. In such situation, only way is to get some form of media attention but since you relented there are no evidence to back your claim except personal testimonies.

Mate of mine once come across sexual harassment case in one of major university in Japan. The department attempted to pretty much hide what has happened so he informed one of a newspaper he had contact. When the stuff was out in open, thing has sorted out pretty soon after that.

Similar case happened in a provincial university. Problem is that in place like Satuma in your exapmle, news media, business, bureocrat and academia all goes hand in hand and it will take extremly persistent effort to get anything done and having someone to support you inside your organization is a must. That would be out of reach for most foreigners who lived in Japan for only few years. The case was brought to sort of happy ending with the lecture concerned quitting job but it was due to extremly persistent effort by the victim. She also had some support from some lecturers so I assume she or her lawyer knew how to work internal politics of university well.

As of trivia, in japanese civil case, you can lie as much as you want and you will never face legal prosecutions. The law for purjury exist but it has never been enforced except few times when prosecutor wanted to get accused for some other unrelated crime.

Mekugi
16th September 2003, 04:08
Steve.....care to elaborate on this...trying to repress; won't hold....

-R

Originally posted by Vapour
In this case, only thing you can do IF YOU WANT TO GET INTO POSSIBLE TROUBLE is to inform the parent of this kid what has happened and IF YOU ARE WILLING, assure them that you will testify what has happened in public (if not in court).

If they want to pursue this case, they will. They, not you, are the only people who could make difference but as I said, they have to be very persistent.

Steve Delaney
16th September 2003, 04:34
Elaborate on what Russ? On how seethingly pissed off I am at these so-called educators?

Steve Delaney
16th September 2003, 04:41
I could go chasing around after the family and start the ball rolling, but I'll just lose my job and that's it. Nothing will get done. Not until there is some kind of unity between the foreigners in this country.

If there was some unity, then there would be more of a chance of being heard.

Mr. Goldsbury,

You are a professor in a University, you possibly have some very strong political clout in your establishment, and you could probably get away with it, however, I am probably the lowest thing in the educational foodchain, next to the Janitor in JHS. AETs are a dime a dozen and that means the turnover rate can be quite high.

You can do things like that, I don't have that luxury. If I spoke out, I'd lose out on my pay and my ability to live here.

Mekugi
16th September 2003, 04:44
No!
That the parents were standing right there and this was done to their face!

-R

Originally posted by Saitama Steve
Elaborate on what Russ? On how seethingly pissed off I am at these so-called educators?

Vapour
16th September 2003, 05:31
Russ, there are difference between (a) being against racism and trying to do something about it and (b) using such stance as a pretence for some form of personal vindication. The person who is doing (b) usually don't realise the difference and do little to contribute to the cause.

Steve Delaney
16th September 2003, 05:37
Russ, only the mother was present at the competition and her Japanese (as well as her English) was non-existant. The father was presumably at work.

Vapour
16th September 2003, 06:36
Steve. You are not the real victim here. The kid is. It's pretty infuriating to see blatant unfair practice which you are sort of forced to perticipate but unless this kid's family decided to do something about it, there is liitte you can do.

If you do become victim of some form of injustice, the best thing to do is to contact some organization which deal with human right issues.

Since I left Japan looooooong time ago, my knowledge is not upto date but usually Lawyer's Association (Nihon Bengoshi Kai) take up number of human right case. Communist party is another one but they might use you for their political gain. Plus, in country side, their power are often miniscure. There may be number of other Ombusman organizations but I can't really help you on that.

Steve Delaney
16th September 2003, 07:06
Where on earth did you get the idea that I was playing the victim???? I have been saying since the first post that is was Mitsuishi kun (the student) who was the victim. What really got to me as I have stated before was the fact that the kid is the son of a Japanese, he was born in Japan and has Japanese citizenship.

If anyone is the victim, it 's the student and his mother. This kid will probably start growing up thinking that he's worthless and that it's all his mother's fault for being a Phillipino.

If you think that I'm trying to vindicate myself here, you're mistaken. I'm just really pissed off that I couldn't do anything of real value to stop it from happening.

Mekugi
16th September 2003, 07:43
'Youj,

Quick question....

What race are you?

-Russ

(loaded)


Originally posted by Vapour
Steve. You are not the real victim here. The kid is. It's pretty infuriating to see blatant unfair practice which you are sort of forced to perticipate but unless this kid's family decided to do something about it, there is liitte you can do.

If you do become victim of some form of injustice, the best thing to do is to contact some organization which deal with human right issues.

Since I left Japan looooooong time ago, my knowledge is not upto date but usually Lawyer's Association (Nihon Bengoshi Kai) take up number of human right case. Communist party is another one but they might use you for their political gain. Plus, in country side, their power are often miniscure. There may be number of other Ombusman organizations but I can't really help you on that.

Striking Hand
16th September 2003, 07:55
Russ.

Take a guess as to his nationality. :D
I know which it is.

Discrimination happens, just waiting for it to happen to my Son.
He also is a Japanese/Austrian citizen, mother is japanese, I am austrian.

For me the important part is not if discrimination happens or not (it will and sometimes for sundry reasons) but how you teach your child to deal with it.

Japanese got a looong history for non-japanese NOT to win at local events just look at the MA/K1/Pride and similar scenes.

Realy wonder how the Bob Sapp vs Mike Tyson event will be played out here, I reckon Tyson won't stand a chance if the event will be held in japan.

The rules of the game are different over here, but you can win if you play your cards right.

If anybody is interested I can realy a few stories off-list as to what you as a non-japanese can achieve with a little bit of effort.

Seeya.

Mekugi
16th September 2003, 08:14
Even worse.

-R


Originally posted by Saitama Steve
Russ, only the mother was present at the competition and her Japanese (as well as her English) was non-existant. The father was presumably at work.

Vapour
16th September 2003, 14:29
Originally posted by Saitama Steve
Where on earth did you get the idea that I was playing the victim???? I have been saying since the first post that is was Mitsuishi kun (the student) who was the victim. What really got to me as I have stated before was the fact that the kid is the son of a Japanese, he was born in Japan and has Japanese citizenship.

If anyone is the victim, it 's the student and his mother. This kid will probably start growing up thinking that he's worthless and that it's all his mother's fault for being a Phillipino.

If you think that I'm trying to vindicate myself here, you're mistaken. I'm just really pissed off that I couldn't do anything of real value to stop it from happening.

I apologise if my comment offended you but it was directed to Mekugi. If you read past comment made by him, you see what I mean. He seems to take some form of pleasure in pointing out injustice of Japan but rarely come up with anyting constructive. It's pretty similar to how communist ideology take pleasure by reading news that stock market crashed as sort of personal vindication. And there are no point debating issue with these people

As "victim" issue, you enquired about some sort of legal process so I assume that you want to do something about it. I wished to point out that, at this point, there is nothing you can do. You missed that opportunity when you decided to go along with decision. Now, it is left to the family of the boy. And unfortunately, victim don't always assert themselves.

One of my father's friend from work is from Sri Lanka. Him and his wife have lived in Japan for nearly 20 years. Their two sons are born here and they both have Japanese names. The eldest son when he was in elementary school had a nick name "Uchujin" (space alien). Fortunately, the fact that the father works in university as a professor helped a lot in dealing with the school.

Vapour
16th September 2003, 14:41
.

bruceb
16th September 2003, 14:54
Welcome to the 1950s early 1960s in the Good Ole USA.

The beginning happens to Japan, only forty years later.

I would sure like to see the evolution of Japans society over the next one hundred years as its society slowly but steadily changes.

Welcome to the past.

Vapour
16th September 2003, 15:32
Opps, it seems that I have made confusion that my

"Russ, there are difference between (a) being against racism and trying to do something about it and (b) using such stance as a pretence for some form of personal vindication. The person who is doing (b) usually don't realise the difference and do little to contribute to the cause."

was included in the comment which offended you. I also confused Saitama with Satuma (Kagoshima prefecture, very rural). Apology, if my previous comment didn't make sence.

From your initial post, I have felt that not only you were angered by what has happened to the kids, you are also angered by the fact that you had to go along with it due to your weak position in your current job. Hence in some sence, thought the kid is the main victim, you are somewhat victimised by your current predicament as a temporary English teacher in Japan. It's similar to illegal immigrant who cant seek legal help due to his status though your situation is not as bad as them. I understand why you felt offended by my comment but as far as injustice done to the kid are concerned, the decision belong to the kid's family now and not your so there is nothing you can do about it. I know you are offended by me pointing out the obvious but this lead to second impliciation that injustice concerning your current prediament as a temporaly English teacher is your problem so the choice belong to you.

It is my experience that Westerners (especially those who are eikaiwa kyoshi) who get loughed up by experence in Japan eventually leave their job and return home. It may be extremly iresponsible of me to suggest to leave your job, however, you should really consider whether the current job is worth keeping. If the answer is no, you might want to consider your next plan. People who eventually leave japan out of "I give up" sentiment usually consider their stay in Japan as sort of waste in period of their life. You might want to read my "Eikaiwa kyoshi in Italy" thread to see how bad it is to be stuck in place you can't get out.

Lastly, I start to have a feeling that I have read a similar case in newspaper or magazine before. I left Japan last time 5 years ago and I don't read Japanese media anymore so forgive my short memory but I'm quite sure it was about a kid being disqualified for English speech contest due to one of his parent. I start to have feeling that it was identical case of kid's mother being Pillipino. If this is the case, the similar case might have occured in number of places in Japan and there are good possibility that it was dealt one way or another. If you make enquiry into right directions, you might find out more about similar cases and what could be done about it. I'm sorry that I can't point to you what this "right directions" are but contacting your organization (whatever organization which send you to your school) would be a start. Making contact with other foreign English teacher in Japan with longer experience than you would be another one.

16th September 2003, 16:24
Steve,

I have had first hand experience with 'racism' in Japan (aimed at me). Growing up in Japan during the 70's, born of a Japanese mother and a Norwegian father...

The first several years we lived in Tokyo and I went to International school (which wasn't bad at all), but later we moved to the Kamakura region where I ended up going to a regular Japanese Shogakko.

A couple of experiences that comes to mind is for instance, where I would go outside to play with kids in the neighborhood and the parents (read mothers) would usher their kids inside... OR the time when I wanted to learn Kendo and after one class I was urged not to come back as the parents of the other kids did not appreciate having a gaijin kid training with their kids... fortunately the Kendo teacher was my friend's father and he ended up teaching myself and his son seperately...

I have so many stories I could go on for a while. Perhaps it was "inaka" mentality (since it was outside of Tokyo) but...
In any event, at the time I was too young to really know what was happening (fortunately) but thinking back it really ticks me off.

Take it for what it's worth.

Steven

Steve Delaney
17th September 2003, 01:01
Bruce,

I liken it to 1950's London when the first boatloads of Irish and Jamaicans came over the sea.

My father worked in London during the 1960's and early 1970's during the height of it and every now and then he'd find hotel window notices saying "No Blacks, No Dogs & No Irish."

Overhere however, the Japanese aren't as honest with their prejudices. They kind of hide it and play it like a trump card.

Mekugi
17th September 2003, 10:13
Same thing happened in the USA. We brought endentured servants over from Ireland that were bound to serve in a slave like manner until they worked off their debts.

Although we aren't completely non-racist in the USA (nowhere is for that matter) we at least attempt to keep people from using racism to control people and things. That includes jobs. This is a double edged sword, because for as many people you have with an actual case of legitimate racism, you have a boatload that are false and people trying to manipulate the system. We at least know what it is, and aren't afraid to call a goat a goat. Unlike Japan, where there have been lawsuits and litigious activity in attempts to enforce their existing laws, nothing seems to be changing socially speaking. The only way to initiate change, IMHO is to fill this country up with foreigners until they have no choice but to look us in the eye and explain their actions. However, that is a pipe dream at best.

-Russ



Originally posted by Saitama Steve
Bruce,

I liken it to 1950's London when the first boatloads of Irish and Jamaicans came over the sea.

My father worked in London during the 1960's and early 1970's during the height of it and every now and then he'd find hotel window notices saying "No Blacks, No Dogs & No Irish."

Overhere however, the Japanese aren't as honest with their prejudices. They kind of hide it and play it like a trump card.

hyaku
17th September 2003, 13:40
Down my way kids are allowed to enter the contests as long as one of the parents is Japanese. I have seen lots of them with Korean and Chinese names that have entered. What I find unfair is that there are so many that have spent more than a few years abroad including Japanese who have been educated in other coutries are allowed to enter anyway. They should really put these in a seperate category to give others a fair chance.

Worst of all I saw one particular Japanese student get close to 100 points for a most excellent speech. The particular judge was told that he could award such a high score as that years winner had already been decided. The students marks were put down to 73 to allow the other one to win. I did make a call to chairman and threatened to take it to the newspapers should it happen again.

The whole process of speech contests is an absolute farce.

Hyakutake Colin

Steve Delaney
18th September 2003, 05:35
I agree Hyaku.

It just seems to be a little political vehicle for the board of education to look good to the parents of the students and to the publice, nothing more.

CMM
20th September 2003, 00:08
...I have seen this, too, in my short tenure as a JET. Ironically, Steve and I worked for the same BOE at that time!

Stupid speech contests...

Steve Delaney
21st September 2003, 10:57
Chris,

The old speech contests back in Kumagaya weren't that bad, mate. They were just mind numibgly boring. The one I attended !!!aya was just blatantly racist.

Cady Goldfield
24th September 2003, 15:11
Discrimination in Japan isn't limited to foreigners and those of part-Japanese/non-Japanese heritage. Japanese discriminate blatantly against their own.

My fiance is "hinin" -- literally, a "non-person." His family and ancestors were confined to "hisabetsu buraku" (discriminated villages). They are 100% Japanese, but because an ancestor may have had a distasteful job (butcher, leather worker, carter of offal, executioner, undertaker) or was a convicted criminal, the descendents are considered "eta" - filthy, unclean - and less than a person.

Because of the required village registries, it doesn't matter where in Japan a "burakumin/hinin" goes. He or she will be traced back to the buraku and branded as hinin. With that mark, hinin will not get into good schools, colleges or universities; they will not be hired for professional jobs; they will be rejected for marriage by non-hinin and their families.

The concept of hinin goes back many hundreds of years, and was part of the establishment of social hierarchy. It is similar to the caste system of India, with Untouchables being the lowest of the low. They serve a vital function that keeps life and commerce flowing, but the rest of the society they serve has a need to keep such a group of underbeings in order for them to live unsullied by the dirty little aspects of living.

People want meat, but they don't want to become unclean by butchering it. They want their garbage removed, and their dead to be prepared for cremation or burial, but don't want to become unclean by touching a body or handling trash. Having an underclass allows them to have these things while still allowing themselves to believe that they are clean and pure.

I'm not sure that this justifies the discrimination and abject misery of a segment of their society, but it is the reality of Japan.

Vapour
24th September 2003, 22:22
Originally posted by Mekugi
'Youj,

Quick question....

What race are you?

-Russ

(loaded)

I was off from this thread because I reported above comment to moderator.

I thought making an issue of someone's nationality/ethincity/race as a qualification to debate issue of race/nationality/ethincity warranted some form of warning but the moderator didn't think so.

I have no desire to debate this issue further. Bye.

Exorcist_Fist
25th September 2003, 13:04
Personally I hope your Japanese, because the name you use here is, and we are all required to sign our real names...

kage110
25th September 2003, 13:46
Personally I hope your Japanese, because the name you use here is, and we are all required to sign our real names...

Not wanting to get into an argument about someone's nationality or race (not the same thing in any case), is there any reason why anyone would think that our friend Youji Hajime is not signing his real name? I have deduced that he is Japanese from the name and the contents of his posts, anyone else could do the same. As I think about it I am making an assumption that Youji is a 'he' as I don't have sufficient knowledge of Japanese to determine that from the name. I am also not sure which is his first name, so I could be making insulting comments left, right and centre. My apologies to you, Youji, if I am.

Anyway, back to the orignal question by Mekugi; I don't know if the question was 'loaded' or not but obviously Youji has felt some level of insult implied, so everyone else leave well alone. What does the sex, nationality, race, religion or sexuality of anyone matter on this board?:mad:

don
25th September 2003, 19:35
Originally posted by Cady Goldfield
Discrimination in Japan isn't limited to foreigners and those of part-Japanese/non-Japanese heritage. Japanese discriminate blatantly against their own...."hisabetsu buraku" (discriminated villages). They are 100% Japanese, but because an ancestor may have had a distasteful job (butcher, leather worker, carter of offal, executioner, undertaker) or was a convicted criminal, the descendents are considered "eta" - filthy, unclean - and less than a person.

This kind of stuff comes back to bite the bigoted in the tush--mind the brain drain of educated women from Japan in the throes of a labor crisis because of their perceived inferiority.

I bring this up because I just came across a reference to the ETA in Donald Keene's The Japanese Discovery of Europe, 1720-1830. It seems that despite their disgust with the Dutch, the Japanese did value their medical learning. But they had no translators for the Dutch books they could get their hands on. In lieu of translation, they tried to make their own way by observing the dissection of corpses. Unfortunately, by definintion, polite people didn't know their way around corpses and so had to hire ETA as tour guides about the cadaver.

Vapour
28th September 2003, 02:51
Just for the record. Youji Hajime is my real name. My first name is Hajime and my family name is Youji. Youji is extremely rare family name in Japan.

I'm also rare breed of japanese who use family name, Youji as calling name instead of Hajime even in English. Most people think Youji is the first name. I put Youji first so that people would naturally call me Youji in this forum.

Cady Goldfield
29th September 2003, 00:13
Don,
When you mentioned that, I recalled reading something about the Japanese study of cadavers for medical purposes, and their use of hinin/"eta" who could handle corpses and explain anatomy.

If memory serves, didn't some swordsmen and early martial "technicians" use the bodies of executed prisoners to study anatomy, too? I wonder whether they had any problems handling cadavers, and had hinin serve as intermediaries?

El Guapo-san
29th September 2003, 10:21
Japanese had Dutch translators and vice-versa. Before the Americans arrived, in fact, some schools, or teachers (can't remember which), specialised in what they called 'Dutch studies'. It ended up being a catch-all for Western knowledge. Look it up, the info is there.

As for the first post, yeah, it's bad. Maybe suggest that they have a runner-up category or something like that. Or, offer to give the kid and a couple of the others free tutoring in English. That'll go a lot further than an award and you're getting even.

Josef Vlach, Amsterdam

cxt
29th September 2003, 18:49
I think the reason that people are a bit undiplomatic in asking for a particular persons age, gender, nationality, etc is that this is an international site.

And for better or worse I have had (speaking for me only-but I think its more widespread than just me) the "experience" of people that were not being honest about their age, nationality, gender, etc. Makes it real hard to get any work work done when some 13 year old is useing your website for "playtime."

Not to say ANYONE on this thread has been dishonest. Just that questions do not become some sort of racist attack just because you ask them.

Course it might matter what and how questions are asked.

Chris Thomas

hyaku
30th September 2003, 00:45
Originally posted by cxt
I think the reason that people are a bit undiplomatic in asking for a particular persons age, gender, nationality, etc is that this is an international site. Chris Thomas

Its the first thing they ask you in Japan or for that matter outside (minus the gender).

First its the nationality in a sort of, "Oh your not Japanese" sort of way.
Then pull out the age card. For example one person asked my wifes age and it was the same. Not satisfied with that they then said but when is your birthday? Ahhh victory.... one month older, "I am senior to you".

If that does not work its pull out the business card to show how famous you are in the hope that it will prove one upmanship. The whole things a farce rather than just having a nice chat with someone you have never met before. It seems to work better taking to elderly people. Age difference is obvious. They are retired so have no cards!

A Japanese did an interesting article not so long back saying that internet business would revolutionize Japan's extreme hierarchical system.

Hyakutake Colin

cxt
30th September 2003, 15:03
Sorry

I should have been more specific, I was not referenceing behavior in Japan. I was refering to the tone of some of the posters on this topic.

They seemed to feel that just asking for the nationality/gender/age of a poster was somehow in and of itself insulting.

Not sure I agree.

Chris Thomas

Ellis Amdur
30th September 2003, 16:05
There is some substantial reason to believe that the burakumin are comprised of several "lines." Most commonly discussed would be the families of criminals or others who were outcast for various reasons. But more primarily, the burakumin are Sanka - the aboriginal people of Japan. Any read of Japanese history reveals that it was settled in waves, the various clans from Korean/Central Asia, culminating in the Yamato being the last and most successful. The Sanka were probably the earlier groups which, successively defeated, were driven back into the mountains. Whether they did so before, they assumed a hunter-gatherer lifestyle. Due to population pressure, some drifted to the outskirts of settled areas (Hisabetsu buraku), and took up the only trades available to outsiders (tanning, slaughtering, assisting in executions, etc.). As late as the 1930's, there are studies of Sanka culture - those people who remained in the mountains - with photos of people, short in stature, the women bare-breasted, looking much like the Dyak of Borneo. They lived, apparently by hunting, some little bit of agriculture and fashioning of bamboo implements which they sold to the "lowland" people (ordinary Japanese). However, due to the extreme poverty in Japan pre-WWII, most if not all Sanka left the mountains, and apparently settled with the burakumin, or into such slums as Airin in Osaka area.

There have also been scholars who have speculated that the original ninja clans were Sanka - similar to the !Kung or Apache scouts - aboriginal people with nowhere left to go, turning from a hunter-gatherer lifestyle to a survival based one, using the same skills of stealth for guerilla warfare, scouting, etc.

There is a not very good, romanticized movie about the Sanka, called Seburi Monogatari, made in the early 1980's, which shows the destruction of the Sanka in their collision with the pre-war "nation state," as officials moved up the valleys to establish control on all the citizens.

Finally, the burakumin in Japan have become highly politicized - there is a Burakumin Liberation Front, but according to the news articles I have read, sadly, like a lot of similar organizations, the leaders have become enamoured of both pressure politics, entitlement because of victimization and big money.

BTW - Chris Bates, a very skilled martial artist published a novel some years ago, called Wave Man, (available thru www.koryu.com), in which a burakumin man, a butcher and skilled knife fighter plays a leading role.

Best

Ellis Amdur

Ron Tisdale
30th September 2003, 16:13
Could someone speak to the differences between the Sanka and the Ainu?

Thanks,
Ron

Cady Goldfield
30th September 2003, 16:29
Thank you for the interesting information, Ellis.

From what I have learned, the hisabetsu buraku aren't so much villages that "hinin" drifted to, as they were villages that were designated as being for "hinin," similar to the 18th- and 19th-century shtetl ghettoes in the Pale of Russia that my grandparents were confined to, not permitted to live or own land in the mainstream nonJewish cities and communities.

My fiance's family name seems to be unique to a specific hisabetsu burkaku, and he currently is doing research through the jodo-shu Buddhist temple there to trace his family's origins. He isn't sure why his family is hinin, but is doesn't believe it was due to a criminal ancester. More likely it is due to reasons similar to what you wrote about.

BTW, most burakumin such as my in-laws-to-be spend their lives trying to shed the "hinin" label ... moving to Tokyo and hiding their identities, renting apartments and working in jobs that don't require a background check of their home village. Not many are involved with the Burakumin Liberation Movement. Maybe they should be.

Interesting stuff.

Cady Goldfield
30th September 2003, 16:41
Originally posted by Ron Tisdale
Could someone speak to the differences between the Sanka and the Ainu?

Thanks,
Ron

Tidbits from Encylopedia Britannica:

Ainu
indigenous people of Hokkaido, Sakhalin, and the Kuril Islands who are differentiated physically and culturally from their Asian neighbours. Their origins are obscure. One claim that they were descended from European peoples has since been disproved, and many contemporary Ainu claim some connection to the prehistoric Jomon culture.

Sanka
(Japanese: Mountain Cave), outcaste group of people in Japan. The Sanka are sometimes called the Japanese Gypsies, wandering in small bands through the mountainous regions of Honshu. They are not distinguishable in either physical type or language from the rest of the Japanese.

Ron Tisdale
30th September 2003, 16:54
Thanks Cady,

I found the same links when searching myself, but was hoping for something a little more in depth. I was surprised by the amount of material on both burakumin and Ainu, but the lack of material on Sanka.

Can anyone speak to the amount of cooperation between these differing groups now?

Ron

Cady Goldfield
30th September 2003, 17:01
Ron,
Why don't you post one? Maybe some of the more experienced Japanophiles will have some leads.

Vapour
30th September 2003, 22:12
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Troll Basher
30th September 2003, 22:35
Originally posted by Cady Goldfield
Tidbits from Encylopedia Britannica:

Ainu
indigenous people of Hokkaido, Sakhalin, and the Kuril Islands who are differentiated physically and culturally from their Asian neighbours. Their origins are obscure. One claim that they were descended from European peoples has since been disproved, and many contemporary Ainu claim some connection to the prehistoric Jomon culture.

Sanka
(Japanese: Mountain Cave), outcaste group of people in Japan. The Sanka are sometimes called the Japanese Gypsies, wandering in small bands through the mountainous regions of Honshu. They are not distinguishable in either physical type or language from the rest of the Japanese.


Interesting stuff.
In all my years in Japan I have to admit I have never heard of the Sanka.
However, I have met several Ainu, and worked with an one. He was about 6'5" and looked more like he was from the middle east rather than Japan. He said that Ainu have a closer relationship with the Eskimo than any other race in the region.

Joseph Svinth
1st October 2003, 05:15
For Ainu, you might check the books by Josef Kreiner. See, for instance, http://www.uni-hamburg.de/Wiss/FB/10/JapanS/Zeitschr/rez153_6.html