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bruceb
21st September 2003, 23:03
Well ... there may be a variety of choreographed moves, and the pulling of punches and certain safety concerns are usually observed, but why there are there so many injurys if it is fake?

We could say the same of martial arts, it too is fake, isn't it?

How about comparing the many moves and techniques of Professional wrestling to the many simular techniques of Martial arts?

Vapour
22nd September 2003, 00:28
There are few fatalities in women's professional wrestling in Japan.

Funny thing is that women's version are more hard core in Japan. They do move which make you go WTF.

Aikidaniel
22nd September 2003, 06:50
Originally posted by bruceb
Well ... there may be a variety of choreographed moves, and the pulling of punches and certain safety concerns are usually observed, but why there are there so many injurys if it is fake?


Good point Bruce... I know a lot of people that say "Eh the stuff they do in the WWF doesn't hurt cause they know how to land blah blah" What happens, on the odd occasion, when they don't land like they should? Surely that must hurt? A sport's / MA’s authenticity shouldn't be measured based on the amount of injuries its participants sustain.

Striking Hand
22nd September 2003, 06:58
It is fake to the extent:

1.) Who wins and who looses is already decided beforehand.
2.) A lot of the moves are pre-arranged or agreed upon during the match.
The Referee is in on it too and tells them what move, etc to do.
3.) All the squabbles and many of those backstage fight are totally fake.
Ever noticed how those cameras are always handy?

Yes, accidents to happen and at times tempers do flare a bit and things get a bit out of hand.
Either way those guys are some good athletes, that perform some hardcore stunts.

Guts
22nd September 2003, 13:07
My Gung Fu teacher sparred the WWF wrestlers of the 80s such as Bob Backlund, Killer Kahn, Ivan Putski, George The Animal Steele and the late, great Andre The Giant. He met them at Gleasons gym in Brooklyn. He said they were immensely powerful, stronger then anyone he ever met. They trained a lot of wrestling, not just "glitzy" stuff. From his impressions, those guys are no joke. They could crush most martial artists with their size and power.

A slightly interesting point to note is that my teacher complimented them about their power to their manager at the time, "Johnny Ross" (unsure of the name). Ross went onto say they weren't the strongest/toughest guys out there. He said that when the WWF went to Japan and trained at the Sumo camps, they were floored by the Sumos strength, toughness, and stamina.

Dex
22nd September 2003, 13:07
That's funny, I thought they were a bunch of steroid using no-hopers who couldn't get a real job.

As for the injuries...the audience needs its blood.

Peter H.
22nd September 2003, 16:43
I started pro-wrestling in 1999. In 2001 I was a trainer. When the company I was with would hold tryouts, we'd usually get about 20 guys/gals show up. All types, out of shape fat guys who only thought it took being big, bodybuilders, martial artists, college wrestlers, backyard wrestlers and fanboys.
We ended the tryout with a powerbomb. No one was ever cut, we didn't have to. For the first actual class, two or three people would show back up for class. Out of those, one made it all the way through training to their first show. Half the time, they didn't come back for a second show.
I have never done anything as physically/spiritually demanding as prowrestling. Physically in that it hurts and it's tiring, and sometimes people in the crowd don't realize it's a show and take it persoanlly and they throw things at you, attack you in the aisle. Spiritually in that you have to get back up, no matter how badly it hurts, no matter how tired you are. The crowd has paid money to see you perform. If you don't put on a good show the promoter won't pay you, so you have to get up and work. There is no off season, there is now down time. No vacation, no sick leave. If you don't wrestle, you don't get paid.
It is a lot like martial arts. Force of will is the most important aspect. If you want to do it bad enough, you will. A good school will teach you everything else.

Also remember that some great martial artists/mma fighters are/were prowrestlers. "Judo" Gene Lebell, Ken Shamrock, Tank Abbott, Rob Van Damm, Tito Ortiz is about to try it, Dan Severn, Jerry Flynn, and that is just off the top of my head.

stanley neptune
22nd September 2003, 17:14
Pro wrestling is not real!!!! Yeah right! Next thing you'll be telling us is there is no Santa Claus!!

Stanley Neptune

bruceb
22nd September 2003, 17:17
Yeah, if I hadn't been in my fortys when Vince McMahon offered me a job, at the bottom setting up the ring learning the business, I might have just taken it ... but with a family on the rocks ... bills falling behind, ya just gotta do what you gotta do. No wresting for this old gorilla.

I still get a kick out of seeing the young guys working in many of the techniques of martial arts practice, especially when it is a variation on something we were doing that same week.

Fake huh? Well get out of your armchairs, turn off those televisions, and go train for a couple of hours.

My favorite time is when tempers really get out of control and the script is thrown out the window ..... Zebra's, trainers, support staff all run down to the ring .... now that is entertainment.

Senjojutsu
22nd September 2003, 22:56
I have never done anything as physically/spiritually demanding as prowrestling
Peter H,

A good post about the physical demands needed to make it in the world of professional "rassling".

It's not that the muscles, injuries and athletic stamina are fake - it's just the contest that is.

Maybe you can confirm this urban legend I heard about the WWF - because it was the WWF that had to come clean a couple of decades ago on this very issue.

==================

Years ago the New Jersey Athletic Commission was putting the squeeze on the WWF and Vince McMahon.

They claimed, if you are a "legitimate" professional sport like boxing matches, all your WWF matches must be sanctioned by our state commission - and therefore you must pay all "the fees" we money-grubbing political hacks demand.

Vince McMahon being a business man first, said screw you guys!
We are not a real SPORT, the WWF is "SPORTS ENTERTAINMENT" not needing your sanctioning, and thus his empire continued to grow.

Peter H.
22nd September 2003, 23:14
It's true. He called professional wrestling a "sporting exhibition" to avoid the licensing fees and such. The phrase "Sports Entertainment" is his copyright and came later to describe his brand of prowrestling as opposed to Ted Turner's WCW brand which still marketed itself as traditional prowrestling

Vapour
23rd September 2003, 03:42
Originally posted by Guts

A slightly interesting point to note is that my teacher complimented them about their power to their manager at the time, "Johnny Ross" (unsure of the name). Ross went onto say they weren't the strongest/toughest guys out there. He said that when the WWF went to Japan and trained at the Sumo camps, they were floored by the Sumos strength, toughness, and stamina.

It's probably true. I once met this judo instructor from Algentina who teach judo and sumo. He said he introduce judo to his student first because if he introduce sumo first, no one can keep it up because sumo is too hard. He say distance is the key. In judo, you can keep your opponent away so you can rest here and there. In sumo, there is no such thing. Probably similar to wrestling but in wrestling, you can go to floor and that is not as demanding as standup wrestling. In sumo, you have to be standing up so you have gravity to cope with all the time.

joe yang
23rd September 2003, 11:33
Pro wrestsing is real, Jerry Springer is staged.

bruceb
23rd September 2003, 15:24
Say it ain't so, JOE! Jerry Springer a fake!

NOOOOOO!!!!


Fact is, I can't stand to watch or be in the room when that show is on the television. What ya gonna do? My kids like the action, even if it is staged.

william northcote
23rd September 2003, 20:58
Yeah maybe it is fake but it has to be made to look real, feel real and make a good show for the crowd.

But the pro wrestlers are something. Who else would jump 40 foot from the titantron, to wreck the stage on the last PPV? Or get taken through a table for the sake of entertainment? I doubt most, if not all of the e-budo people would shy away from performing that type of stunt(s).

If anyone manages to see a program of secrets revelaed, like magic secrets revealed ETC, there is a program made on how it is made safe. All punches are open and not closed fist, a hurikarana from the top rope is nothing more than a jump and back body drop/breakfall. Powerbombs are breakfalls at speed. Leg drops are made safe by creating space behind the knee so the windpipe is not crushed. All this is there to make it safe so a 20 minute bout is a good show.

The WWE has had it's share of knocks with the wrestlers, Brock Lesnar at Wrestlemania 19 getting severe concussion even though the move may have landed him with a broken neck for instance. It is all a high price, but between you and me, the armchair is a good seat to watch some good action, and maybe pick up a few pointers for your training also;)

Shitoryu Dude
23rd September 2003, 21:16
Anyone can take one look at those oversized goons and tell that they are athletes. While I have no interest in the shows they put on, I find the personalities they affect and the storylines they go through to be a very well thought out ad campaign. Pro wrestlers are achtypes every bit as much as comic book characters - they are the equivalent of Batman and Superman for all practical marketing purposes.

In the end though, it is entertainment.

:beer:

bruceb
25th September 2003, 21:59
Time to pull out the old Kinks Album, Preservation Act II , and sing a round of .... They call me the Scum of the Earth.

I like to reflect on the ordinary man who is just trying to get along, and sometimes .... them Davies Boys are just twisted enough to get the KINKS out.

But back on task. When I talked to Stephanie McMahon, back in 1996 when she was hanging out with the then up and coming Hunter Hurst Helmsly, I got an earful about the story lines, the ratings and the variety of drifts that occured from the script.

I still watch to see which way the writers want the action to go, the babyface, the heel, and the upstarts who are not quite sure which way the fans will go.

Not the life for me, traveling all over the country, no roots, no stability, but I never said I wanted to be a 'rastler, did I?

The guys are getting better though. Just like demonstrations for our own arts, but they put on a much bigger show .....

shotofan
25th September 2003, 22:23
The way I would say pro wrestling is fake by one account.
No matter how strong you are, You won't be able to stop a 200 plus man from hitting your knee hard in a back breaker move. End of story!

Shorite
27th September 2003, 20:27
yeah, its fake. but these guys are amazing, flexible like newborns, strong like wild boars, and they can act. and hey, they are good at fighting too, i mean look at sakuraba, he's in pride now, and he used to be a pro wrestler.

elder999
30th September 2003, 15:19
Originally posted by bruceb
Yeah, if I hadn't been in my fortys when Vince McMahon offered me a job, at the bottom setting up the ring learning the business, I might have just taken it ... but with a family on the rocks ... bills falling behind, ya just gotta do what you gotta do. No wresting for this old gorilla.


You know, I've been trying to ignore this, but I've gotta tell you, Bruce, do you know why they offered you a job?

So those guys you mouthed off to could legally hospitalize you.

You're not big enough, agile enough, and probably not enough of an actor. You wren't in a wrestler's family-so far as I know-nor did you know anyone in the organization. Nor were you a pro/college-football/baseball/wrestling/weightlifting washout. NOr did you attend a "wrestling academy"-all the traditional routes to the ranks of pro-wrestling.You just mouthed off to the wrong guys about burying them, and they were smart enough to look for a legal way to bury you, instead of doing it on the spot.

You didn't scare them off, you made them hungry,

Mike Williams
30th September 2003, 16:00
My guess is that whole story is a figment of Bruce's imagination, much like his training in, what was it, Karate, BJJ and Combato?

Cheers,

Mike

monkeyboy_ssj
30th September 2003, 17:01
Originally posted by Mike Williams
My guess is that whole story is a figment of Bruce's imagination, much like his training in, what was it, Karate, BJJ and Combato?

Cheers,

Mike

He's boasting about his Monkey Hand in Phil's latest thread :rolleyes:

30th September 2003, 17:52
I think it should be noted that some of the "older" wrestlers were very good Judoka first. (Tojo Yamamoto comes to mind.) I believe a few of them were trained by good ole' Judo Jean Lebell.

It's different today. It's obviously staged, but you can't deny their athleticism.

bruceb
30th September 2003, 17:56
For someone who might be my little brother, you shouldn't sit on top of a ladder like that .... I am liable to push it over.

How are your skills for falling and rolling off the top of a ten foot ladder?

Those skills are probaby so poor, we will have a true example of what retarded really is, eh?

That was uncalled for Phil.

I take offense to people using the word 'RETARDED' because they don't know what the hell they are talking about.

One of my brothers, who was born with a bad heart, half paralyzed body and only lived to be 14 as his body out grew his heart, was called retarded, and the fact was, his body was retarded not his mind. Even people who are retarded can be taught and given parameters to live within to structure their lives to be contributing citizens.

If anyone is retarded here, it is you.

You are so full of yourself, you are certainly the retard who is unable to change and grow within the parameters of society and its participants. Whining about street people, and now about professional wrestling?

Get a life .....

May a year or so living with someone classified retarded is the only way to fix your head. Get the real life experiece instead of reading and writing about it ... then some clarity will result in that dark humor you post in some threads?

Shitoryu Dude
30th September 2003, 18:00
Face it Bruce - you haven't 1/10 the intellect you think you do, nor are you anywhere at all in the same league with the major posters here. All you can do is stand back and claim that somehow being a very few years older than the rest of us makes you wise.

"Wisdom comes with age. Sometimes age comes all by itself."

In your case, you just got older.

:beer:

Shitoryu Dude
30th September 2003, 18:59
I don't suffer fools easily or well. Call it a failing if you must, but it makes my life easier.

:beer:

bruceb
2nd October 2003, 17:11
Originally posted by Sharp Phil
Have some compassion, Harvey. If you were Bruce, and you had nothing in your life to which you could look forward except playing about online pretending to have studied things you've never studied and basically making a pest of yourself, you would not appreciate having your fantasies questioned. It's not his fault that he's deranged.

Would that mean it is your frault and Harveys fault the deranged term is popping up so often? Or that Phil and Harvey ARE deranged and no has bothered to tell them because they are just toooooo funnny?

Ya know what I find funny?

For two guys are sooooo smart .... you guys are pretty delusional?

Just an observation ..... Better check with your shrink or psychologist at your next session guys, just to make sure?

But seriously, if that is at all possible with armchair quarterbacks who would be laughed at as goofballs not considered as prospective candidates as I was, because I scared Shawn McMahons buddys ... the Mean Street Posse, has Phil or Harvey ever been toe to toe with one of these guys, or scouted because the buzz in the locker room was "some guy scared some of the wrestlers?" I don't think so.

So, have your little fun, post your importance for everyone to see, cause I did it, not just sat at my little computer and talked about it. Now, how about you guys? Go scare some wrestlers and then you can come back and talk to me about how tough or smart you are .... cause right now, all I see are two guys full of hot air.

I wonder ... out of the three of us, who would have the fortitude to work out with professional wrestlers for one day and earn their respect with our actions instead of all these hollow words I see posted day after day?

You are the big schmoo Phil ... make a few phonecalls, set it up for the Martialist, maybe some training in Connecticutt?

bruceb
10th October 2003, 15:30
Are you making them phone calls Phil?

Never mind.

What do guys think about the new Vince McMahon? Pretty buked up for an old guy, huh?

I don't know, but whatever steriods he is taking has pretty much gone to his head. When I met him, he was full of attitude and his goal was to be the centerstage for wrestling, which I thought was impossible in 1996.

You gotta give him credit for training, scripting, and participating as a heel in the business he and his family owe so much to.

I was just wondering when his head was gonna explode?

What is he, 55 or 56 years old? Yeah, his head or heart will explode if he keeps going the way he is going,

And he told me I was too old at 43 seven years ago? Go figure.

elder999
10th October 2003, 16:02
Originally posted by bruceb

But seriously, if that is at all possible with armchair quarterbacks who would be laughed at as goofballs not considered as prospective candidates as I was, because I scared Shawn McMahons buddys ... the Mean Street Posse, has Phil or Harvey ever been toe to toe with one of these guys, or scouted because the buzz in the locker room was "some guy scared some of the wrestlers?" I don't think so.

So, have your little fun, post your importance for everyone to see, cause I did it, not just sat at my little computer and talked about it. Now, how about you guys? Go scare some wrestlers and then you can come back and talk to me about how tough or smart you are .... cause right now, all I see are two guys full of hot air.

I wonder ... out of the three of us, who would have the fortitude to work out with professional wrestlers for one day and earn their respect with our actions instead of all these hollow words I see posted day after day?


Bruce, you are soooo F.O.S.

I had the misfortune of occasionally training with Jim Hellwig, "the Ultimate Warrior," back in the 80's. Whenever he had a show on Long Island, about 4 times a year, he would come into the same gym I used.

The man was an animal-6'1", 275lbs. 4% body fat.
We're talking serious steroids, here.

Once, I saw him get into a fender bender with a lady, get out of his car and rip the door off of her car with his hands, though, most of the time he was pretty nice-just nuckin' futs.

His days in the gym, I could barely spot him, and I was in my 20's, and-after having to lift weights for a big chunk of my life-not a small guy myself-and , by all accounts, very strong.

Years later, I used to have dinner with a bunch of those guys after shows in New York: Hacksaw Jim Dugan, the Iron Sheik, Hulk Hogan, Ray Traylor-the Big Boss Man, lots of guys. While some of them were just earning a living, quite a few were borderline sociopaths with extremely violent tendencies.Not men to be trifled with, not because they were big, or strong, or particularly well trained fighters, but because they had the will to commit acts of violence.

Whoever it was that came into your shop that day wasn't impressed with you. They offered you your "shot" at WWF fame so that they could legally hospitalize you. They've done it before, and they'll do it again, and again; McMahon's discouraging you because you were "too old" was part of the set up-a waver of liability and some minimal training for your first show, and you'd have been in a body cast, dude.

bruceb
10th October 2003, 18:10
Originally posted by elder999
Bruce, you are soooo F.O.S.

I had the misfortune of occasionally training with Jim Hellwig, "the Ultimate Warrior," back in the 80's. Whenever he had a show on Long Island, about 4 times a year, he would come into the same gym I used.

The man was an animal-6'1", 275lbs. 4% body fat.
We're talking serious steroids, here.

Once, I saw him get into a fender bender with a lady, get out of his car and rip the door off of her car with his hands, though, most of the time he was pretty nice-just nuckin' futs.

His days in the gym, I could barely spot him, and I was in my 20's, and-after having to lift weights for a big chunk of my life-not a small guy myself-and , by all accounts, very strong.

Years later, I used to have dinner with a bunch of those guys after shows in New York: Hacksaw Jim Dugan, the Iron Sheik, Hulk Hogan, Ray Traylor-the Big Boss Man, lots of guys. While some of them were just earning a living, quite a few were borderline sociopaths with extremely violent tendencies.Not men to be trifled with, not because they were big, or strong, or particularly well trained fighters, but because they had the will to commit acts of violence.

Whoever it was that came into your shop that day wasn't impressed with you. They offered you your "shot" at WWF fame so that they could legally hospitalize you. They've done it before, and they'll do it again, and again; McMahon's discouraging you because you were "too old" was part of the set up-a waver of liability and some minimal training for your first show, and you'd have been in a body cast, dude.

Well, know it all, Stephani McMahon, Vince McMahon, Shane McMahon,Linda McMahon and even Hunter Hurst Helmsly, the Undertaker, and it all started when I scared the then up and coming Mean Street Posse. If I hadn't been married, or my family had enough money to stay even until I got into th swing of rough and tumble, I certainly would have taken the offer, but not to work for free, no way. Even Martha Stewart used to wander into Boat US in Norwalk, CT, but she didn't listen to me either, and look at the mess she is in now ... oh well ... don't listen to Forrest Gump.

Just be carefull who you call a liar. If I hadn't left Cobra Catamaran I would have stayed and built a boat for the Ultimate Warrior who was looking for a fast show off boat.

As a matter of fact, the guys from American Chopper, the Tuetles were looking to trade a custom bike for a boat about that same time.

You think I am kidding when I say my life is like Forrest Gumps ... meeting people who become famous while I am just a footnote in history, forgotten, unknown?

I wish I were.

Oh, Well ... you have your own problems to deal with.

Your post was entertaining, although misconcieved.

I am not a sociopath, maybe because I know I will use the knowledge I gain to truly injure, if not kill, someone if they push me hard enough, and that truly scares me when I pushed to that point of no choice ... I am more scared of what I am capable of doing than any fear you or anyone else could hope to imagine to instill in me. Emphathise with that ... then you might get a clue.

elder999
10th October 2003, 18:22
As a matter of fact, the guys from American Chopper, the Tuetles were looking to trade a custom bike for a boat about that same time.

Jeez, I'm from the Hudson Valley.......interesting.......didn't I-I did! I used to have a nitrous boosted Harley built by Paul Teutul of Orange County Chopper, back when Paul Jr. was, well, really junior...and Orange County Choppers didn't even exist........it was a seventies-style orange thing called "The Great Pumpkin." had a mural of Peanuts on the tank, and a wheelie bar-
I think there's a picture hanging in theior shop, still.....
interesting.....I will use the phone.

You should be careful with that name-dropping thing; it can lead to all sorts of $hit.

Incidentally, I wasn't calling you a liar, just saying that you had it all wrong.

As usual.

bruceb
10th October 2003, 18:36
Originally posted by elder999
Jeez, I'm from the Hudson Valley.......interesting.......didn't I-I did! I used to have a nitrous boosted Harley built by Paul Teutul of Orange County Chopper, back when Paul Jr. was, well, really junior...and Orange County Choppers didn't even exist........it was a seventies-style orange thing called "The Great Pumpkin." had a mural of Peanuts on the tank, and a wheelie bar-
I think there's a picture hanging in theior shop, still.....
interesting.....I will use the phone.

You should be careful with that name-dropping thing; it can lead to all sorts of $hit.

Incidentally, I wasn't calling you a liar, just saying that you had it all wrong.

As usual.

Say what you mean ... not what you think you mean ...

Call up Pauly or his dad and ask them if they looked at the Cobra Catamarans and they thought they were very poorly built. I remember them coming to the old seven up warehouse before we moved over to the fenced in electric company building, don't forget to ask him if he remembers which building in Pomona he came to.

By the way, I never drop names of people I haven't met face to face, even if they forget my face, which is usually my goal ... to be nondescript. You want details ... PM me.

Hey... anybody heard from Sharp Phil on setting up E-budo with WWE for an article in his E-zine, The Martialist?

You want to get in on this Aaron?

Good excuse to get a bunch of guys together and wrassle some of the big guys, eh?

I wasn't kidding when I proposed it.

Maybe I should make a few phone calls, eh?

But really ... all this other B.S aside .... You up for it?

elder999
10th October 2003, 18:40
Originally posted by bruceb
Say what you mean ... not what you think you mean ...

Hey... anybody heard from Sharp Phil on setting up E-budo with WWE for an article in his E-zine, The Martialist?

You want to get in on this Aaron?

Good excuse to get a bunch of guys together and wrassle some of the big guys, eh?

I wasn't kidding when I proposed it.

Maybe I should make a few phone calls, eh?

But really ... all this other B.S aside .... You up for it?

All seriousness: been there, done that, got the T-shirt-and the bruises-no thanks.

Wrestling-whatever it is, isn't fighting.

But it isn't fake.

You are, though.

bruceb
10th October 2003, 18:49
Originally posted by elder999
All seriousness: been there, done that, got the T-shirt-and the bruises-no thanks.

Wrestling-whatever it is, isn't fighting.

But it isn't fake.

You are, though.

Now you have me wondering who is the fake here .. and it ain't me.

I asked all the big talkers to put up ... and look what I get?

Let me make a few phone calls and see what is up.

Catch you later.