View Full Version : What happened to?

Ron Collins
29th September 2000, 14:50
It's been a long while since I studied Judo but does anyone know why Kani Basami (scissor leg takedown) were outlawed in Tournaments?

Remain Well,

Aaron Fields
29th September 2000, 16:31
My understanding is kani basami in competition was not being done correctly. Subsequently there were a lot of knee injuries and the eventual ban on tournament use.

29th September 2000, 22:29
I was told it was because the breakfall was too hard to take and the head was hitting the mat, causing lots of concussion and other brain injuries.

Never got thrown by this, but the fall from Hanegoshi done by tall people can be a rattler.:D


30th September 2000, 01:08
On the Judo-List, this was discussed... coming from someone who *should* know, was this: "...but I was there for the debate and the vote and the consideration for the ban was the high incidence of leg/knee/ankle injuries." - Jim Hrbek

30th September 2000, 09:32
If anyone knows when it was banned, I would like to know. it certainly wasn't banned when I was competing, but I did notice a lag in attempts to do this throw well-enough to risk doing a sutemi waza in shiai.

I suppose I should read my manual more thoroughly, as I do referee on occasion.:o

Good question, Ron. There have been discussions of the throw, but no one mentioned it being banned. There is another throw which had been banned back in the sixties, but I can't think of it at the moment.

Possibly I should visit the Judo-L list more often?:look:


BTW: The injuries listed here are high in judo injuries all round, as I am still alive to say that.

Ron Collins
30th September 2000, 14:07
I got to train with a friend of mine who just got back from out of town, trucker, and he wanted me to help his son with his Judo. We were play around with different techniques and I caught him with it. Thats when he said it was banned in compation.

I found a site with a list of Judo techniques but no mention of when the throw was outlawed. I can understand how, I got a concusion from one in class once, but thats cause we were to close to the edge of the mat.

Remain Well,

Ps: Here is the site http://judoinfo.com/techdraw.htm

30th September 2000, 14:43
The JUDO INFORMATION SITE lists IJF recognized techniques (99 of them)

Kinshi-Waza (4)


My Japanese is rusty, but my Hepburn Dictionary defines Kinshi as "interdicted" or "Prohibited," and the other techniques are listed in "Prohibited Acts."

1st October 2000, 02:27
I don't know when it was banned for sure, but I was told it was banned back in the Sixties, at least in whatever Judo org we were in back then, USJF or USJA, which ever one came out of the Armed Forces Judo Association(AFJA).

The person telling me this was one Oscar Adams, a yudansha (ex-Navy) with that org.

He had demonstrated the kani basame, which throw we were never even taught in my school, as it was banned, and several other illegal waza (fun Guy, Oscar!:-) such as do-jime(kidney scissors or body squeezing,leg locking (would that be I wonder, the proscribed ashi garame) and spine locks(Oscar was also a Pro Wrestler, he knew lots of unlovely 'real' grappling maneuvers that were sometimes necessary when one of the wrestlers forgot to follow the script)-

And sometimes these maneuvers would accidentally find their way into the Judo classes he ran at the Lima Ymca, back in the Sixties.

I was the uke for the kani basame, and once was enough, thank you very much.

Oscar weighed in at a good two fifty, and when he applied the waza, you were going arcing over backwards, and down, no two ways about it.

Oscar also explained that many head type injuries occurred from this throw, though I can see how knee and ankle type stuff could also occur.

I will tell you the truth, as a sankyu in Judo,I never felt the urge to try this one in randori.I did however, become very fond of another sutemi waza I believe called Yoko Gakae, or lateral dash, which start like a footwsweep, they plant the front foot to counter, and you, still in footsweep position, do a side brakfall while holding on to them, sending them over sideways a great distance.:-)

Use to annoy a great many shodans by throwing them once a match with this one.Of course, afterwards I would pay for it, but hey, that is Judo!:-)

Later, I became appreciative of an unholy maneuver known as ko uchi geri makikomi:D, which works amazingly well on a front leg weighted karate or JKD fighter.

Amazingly well.

Finally, one I definitely did NOT appreciate was a strangulation maneuver you will not find listed in Kodokan Judo called Jigoku Jime, or Hell Strangle.A more aptly named technique was never invented.

It does appear in some Judo publications but I was introduced to it in Terre Haute Indiana at Phil Minton's Judo Club in 1978.

It is called Hell strangle becuase once its locked on there is no known escape.Both arms are pinned, you are rolled legs over neck and back, and you can't move, breathe, fight or bridge.

They don't release you, you are dead.Thus the Hell Strangle.

Anyway perhaps in other Judo orgs this waza, kani basami was only banned later?

[Edited by kusanku on 09-30-2000 at 09:30 PM]

1st October 2000, 04:39
Hi, again.

In Dan Zan Ryu, Kani Basame is called Kane Sute (crab sacrifice). It can be thrown safely in competition, but the thrower must be very deep into the throw (so his crotch is on the obi), and the right hand pull is to tori's right armpit. This gives uke a clean (HARD but clean) fall to the flat of his back, under control and suceptible to chokes and arm locks.

My Sensei's Sensei recounts a fight he saw while on station in occupied Japan in which the thrower (also known as the survivor)threw with right ankle just past the throat and left instep just behind uke's (also known as the dearly departed's) far knee. The arresting officers picked up about half of the victem's brain that exited through the back of the skull. (Paving stones are not as springy as tatami.) They said it was evidence. This one is definitely not to be practiced without the supervision of a QUALIFIED instructor. Remember, just because he or she has a black belt doesn't mean he or she is qualified.

1st October 2000, 04:55
By the way, John,

The escape from Jigoku Jime is do a back roll across tor'is chest, bending your left arm at the elbow, so it can free itself from the leg which holds it; then, when you reach your knees, extract your right arm from tori's grip by pulling it out as through a tube.

It is considered a challenge by most of us when someone says "There is no known escape." (The escape is pictured on page 109 of K. Kudo's DYNAMIC JUDO.) Welcome to e-Budo.

1st October 2000, 07:48
Ed: Sure do thank youfor the escape from the inescapable technique.

I thought it was strange that one and only one Judo waza had no counter.

Now that I know it does though I'll sure sleep easier at night knowing how to get out of the Hell Strangle.

And I thank you for the information and the welcome to e-budo.

Knowing this escape will now make my Kung fu INVINCIBLE.:D

My Judo however, remains at about Brown Belt level.


1st October 2000, 07:54
By the way, Ed-
The way you describe the kani basami done to the departed is how Oscar did the dang thing on me, fortunately there was a GOOD mat under me.And that he did not put full ressure on so's Icould actually keep my head up somewhat.

BTW, I find DZR Jiujitsu a fascinating at to read about, never met a practitioner before.Glad to make your acquaintance.

Have met and trained with some Oikiru ryu, Kodenkan ryu(is that related to yours?) and Hakko ryu people though, all very impressive.


1st October 2000, 13:12

For long hours of very enjoyable Dan Zan Ryu study, go to Professor George Arrington's superb site at: http://www.danzan.com . You'll find me under People/new timers/ Ed Burgess.

There is also a vast fund of information on waza, history, all DZR organizations (either eight or nine of them), copies of mokoroku, and lots more.

And yes, some DZR people call it Kodenkan after Master Okazaki's dojo.

1st October 2000, 21:27
Thanks for the info and the leads, Ed- that must have been a DZR guy I met that time, then. Very nice person, Japanese descent, Yondan.

When he found I was a judoka it was like family.He showed me some really nasty ways to do kote gaeshi.

I liked that. I will definitely check it out.

Again, Thanks, and good to meet you.

2nd October 2000, 08:20
Ron brought up something I didn't know so I thought I would continue that discussion. Of course, if you would rather make this a "lonely hearts club" jutsu, that is also fine.:)

Another throw which was banned (I think it has nearly always been banned from modern shiai) is a hip throw, and that is your only hint. OK, another hint is that it shouldn't do the kind of damage discussed with kani basame, but is nevertheless banned from shiai AND randori.


BTW: Ed, I used to have a picture of the old interior of the Kodenkan dojo on an old webpage which isn't up anymore. That is what I have always called DZR.

2nd October 2000, 10:53
Well, Mark,

Unless it's obi hane goshi, I haven't got a clue; unless it's one of three or four armlock throws, but those are te-waza. Nope, I'm stumped.


Joseph Svinth
2nd October 2000, 12:59
I'll show my ignorance -- is it kawazugake?

Brian Griffin
2nd October 2000, 13:10
Originally posted by MarkF

Another throw which was banned (I think it has nearly always been banned from modern shiai) is a hip throw, and that is your only hint. OK, another hint is that it shouldn't do the kind of damage discussed with kani basame, but is nevertheless banned from shiai AND randori.

I'll guess that you're referring to _changae_ (sp?), known in DZR as _kesanage_.

I don't think _kawazugake_ could be called a hip throw.

Nothing illegal about _obihanegoshi_.

[Edited by Brian Griffin on 10-02-2000 at 08:16 AM]

Ron Collins
2nd October 2000, 22:03
I don't know about the illegal hip throw, but I've also heard to Kani Basami was banned because someone had their back broken because of it, during the seventies. I've never used it outside my old Dojo, but Sensei Small was really flexible about what we could do and what we couldn't. As long as we showed control and respect for our techniques it was go as you please.

Remain Well,

3rd October 2000, 04:59
Hi, Brian.

In Dan Zan Ryu obi hane goshi ends with a pile drive to the top of the head on impact.

Very tough slapping with uke's ears!


3rd October 2000, 07:34
A banned Hip Throw?In Judo? really?

Hmmmmm.Well, it couldn't be sode tsurikomi goshi because I always got away with that one, and so did many others,

Obi hanegoshi I never had the misfortune of meeting.

Would it possibly be some form of ura goshi or reverse hip throw?

Otherwise, no idea.

3rd October 2000, 07:47
OK, it is a bit of a trick question, as it doesn't actually appear to be a hip throw. Think post 1920. Ura nage is pretty close, but sorry no cigar. If no one can came up with it by about 2:00am tomorrow, I'll post it.


OK, one more hint. You will feel as if your back is broken if done with intent.:)

Brian Griffin
3rd October 2000, 16:23
Originally posted by efb8th

In Dan Zan Ryu obi hane goshi ends with a pile drive to the top of the head on impact.

I know a lot of people say this, but think about it...how many times have you actually landed on top of your head when practicing this? Since tori has both hands on the uke's obi, he has little or no control of uke's upper body. Uke also has both hands free to break his fall. A real "pile-driver" would require uke's hand(s) to be tied up & substantial control of uke's shoulders/head in order to guarantee a "head-first" landing. This actually occurs in _lots_ of Judo throws that are considered legal in contest (double drop-knee morote seoinage, for example). Obihanegoshi is a lot less hazardous, and certainly not illegal per se, although _any_ throw done so as to _intentionally_ cause injury would be "contrary to the spirit of Judo" and therefore illegal.

Brian Griffin
3rd October 2000, 18:05
Originally posted by MarkF

...it doesn't actually appear to be a hip throw.

...You will feel as if your back is broken if done with intent.:)

In changae/kesanage, tori enters as for osotogari, but inserts his hip deeply behind uke. The throw can resemble an osoto-otoshi, or an ogoshi with uke facing the wrong direction. Uke is bent backwards over tori's hip, and if done with "gusto" uke can be driven down on the back of his head, or even rotated to fall face downwards with tori landing on uke's back!

Originally posted by Ron Collins

...I've also heard to Kani Basami was banned because someone had their back broken because of it, during the seventies.

Kanibasami was legal throughout the '70s (I used it! I even scored, sometimes!) and I never heard of a back injury because of it. Injuries mainly were knee/ankle, although once in a while somebody would smack a head on the mat in a bad fall. The injuries were tolerated until Yamashita fell victim in a big meet (ankle injury, I think). After that, kanibasami was outlawed in a hot Tokyo minute!

3rd October 2000, 21:53
'Ura Nage is close, but no cigar.'

Is it that Obi Otoshi Belt Drop throw, over the back of your shoulder, like a suplex with handles?

Or some form of Makikomi?

What could it be?

I give up.

4th October 2000, 05:46
I must admit to being in a fog as well...

Looking forward to the answer...

4th October 2000, 06:30
This is a second post, and I have no idea why my first was not posted, but if I had said it was a hip technique from the shimmeisho grouping of nage and obviously added well past 1920, would that have helped? I thought about it as someone tried this in a tournament when I was officiating. It didn't come off that well thus no damage, but a warning was given.

After looking back at my posts concerning this one, I think most do not think of it as a hip throw, but the hips indeed are central, with the proper placement of the knee(s) and proper lift, the hips, the throw is dakiage. Now, before I am slammed for this trick question, it is indeed a "hip technique," at least it is by the Kodokan. It is also a rough fall.

With apologies,

Please! Don't hurt me too badly.:D

5th October 2000, 03:34
Ah! The essence of sneaky!! A throw that virtually no-one trains with, and I'd never even *considered* what category it would fit in. My *snap* judgement is that it would be a 'tewaza', but you are certainly correct, it would be considered a koshiwaza.

Bravo! (For fooling me!!)

6th October 2000, 06:46
Mark says:

'If I had said it was a technique from the shimmeisho waza and obviously added well after 1920, would that have helped?'

Yerse.:D That Would have helped a ton, ya got me with it pretty good, and had you said that, I would have spotted it.Or I think I would have, which might not actually be the same thing.:-)

I was looking backward when I shoud have been looking forwards, and not in the kata section of my Kodoan Judo at all.


6th October 2000, 07:22
If it helps any, I wouldn't have thought of it either, if someone hadn't tried to sneak it in to a match. I knew it was prohibited, but I had to look up the name, too.


7th October 2000, 09:33
Lol! Someone tried that dakiage in a tournament?

Must of stayed up late one night reading Kodokan Judo, and thought, now, if no one is looking real close, I might just get away with this one.'

Next it'll be morote gari, unless they allow that one.

Well like I said, old Osar used to be a million laughs with those prohibited waza, but he never tried dakiage.

He liked them old ones no one ever tried, because they mostly never learned them anymore.

Oscar had him a copy of the 1958 or whatever, Kodokan Judo, too.

I used to like Koizumis book My Study of Judo, becuse he had a mess of variant throws in his, that were actually legal,at least they used to be, and you could load up like , for instance, a hiza guruma and turn it into osoto otoshi at the last minute.

Always looking for unexpected combination throws,as a newaza specialist, I wanted mainly to get the opponent to go to the mat somehow, didn't have to be perfect, you understand.

Did have to get him there, preferably without him throwing me first.

makikomis were very popular in the late sixties, at least where I was, in the Konan Yudanshakai of Northwestern Ohio,so we did all kinds of those, plus the kneeling seioi otoshi was always a good bet on a taller guy, if you didn't hesitate and get choked out or something.

But beside the standard harai goshi - o soto gake:D and tai otoshi o-uchi gari that were my favorite shiai combos, the one I used to get eople with more than oe would think, was a sode tsurikomi goshi, because you took a double sleeve grip and could switch to either side.

If you get them to go up even a little on the balls of the feet, and that usually wasn't hard, if they were taller, it was easy,if they were aggressive and came in fast it was also easy,you had 'em.

But the shimmeisho no waza, never much messed with them, except the aforementioned morote gari.Good one for self defense, or having some fun with peopole who could ukemi well.:-)

8th October 2000, 09:02
The two involved in the dakiage were kyu graded and both wer trying to choke the other, it wasn't done all that hard, and it was more out of frustration, thus the warning instead of hansokumake. No point tournaments out here, for the most part.

There are so many variants of throws in shiai that I am sure there are those which have to be studied closely to put them in the "variant" category. Also, faking waza is not legal, but there is a fine line between faking, and stopping to go for another nage. Is it faking to go for o soto gake, hopping inward, for o soto gari?

If your intent is newaza, what do you use to get uke to the ground, if a nage fails? There has been a discussion on the http://www.ijf.org judo forum on jumping juji gatame. It seems that some forbid it and some do not.

Makikomi is still favored by some (Look at M. Koga, for a good example) and is pretty hard to avoid in most forward throws, particularly shoulder throws, uchimata, and harai goshi, especially if you have achieved kake, following uke is a good idea if you have a ref who is asleep at the wheel.

If someone is coming at you fast, almost any forward waza will work, but most know better.:)

Well, yes and no, concerning seoiotoshi. If uke is much taller, it may not do the job, but seoinage with the leg thrown back may do it. If kuzushi is all ready forward, then dropping to both knees will work, especially if you switch up and drag the left arm down.

Many of the newer throws were accepted because they could not prevent, or at least decided it was good judo, to add leg tackles; one or both, that was how morote gari was included, but even that throw has so many variations, that I wouldn't be surprised to see more down the line. Morote gari was simply "so this is morote gari then, sensei?" If they insist and it works, so be it. I bet dakiage was put in for mostly the same reasons as the one I saw in shiai. Kuchiki taoshi was the one for the single leg tackle. But most of these have so many variations that even the Kodokan cannot keep it straight as to what is morote gari and what isn't. If you look on the Kodokan website http://www.kodokan.org , it is really a completely different throw compared to KJ which came out in the eighties. It is more of a shoulder throw on the website.

I think morote gari and its variations (to include kuchiki taoshi) are useful as I see more and more wrestling in shiai so these throws may not be practiced much, but you had best learn them, as you may have to defend against them.:up:


9th October 2000, 04:32
Mark:'f your intent is to get uke to the ground, for newaza, what do yo use to get him to tha mat if a nage fails?'

Well, we were taught the stumbling tactic, in other words a series of hard footsweeps to catch him off guard, tenderize the ankles and hopefully get him to stumble and go to one knee.

At one point as a white belt I did this to an older nidan who apparently had tender ankles that night, and paid appropriately for my sin for about what felt like a good thirty minutes or so.

For those who may be lurking here not in judo, being thrown continuusly for a half hour is a very tiring experience.:-)

But if that failed we were taught to take a good grip on the opponent, including 'munching' up the sleeve and lapels, and yank him forward and down off balance, again to stumble him to one knee, and then go for the turnover and the old when we got him to this position.

Failing this, we might try to wait him out, counter or block his throwing attemts, and hope he m,ade a mistake. I know this doesn't sound ideal, but it often worked.

Yet I have not mentioned our first and most effective strategy to get the opponent to go to the mat- and this ne worked on anyone who didn't know you, more often or not-though newaza men, we also did much throwing prcice, and strove, as our teacher told us, to act as though our one desire was to dump uke for ippon.

At best, we would get ippon or waza ari, this before the days of koka or yuko, and then if the latter gofor the hold before he finished landing, but if at worst, our opponent blocked or countered our throw attempt,we would try another and another in succession, combination waza, and as you know, get him once on the defensive and how many attempts can he block before falling down at least, then we have him.

Judo being judo, say he didn't go for this, which was often the case as well, and played defense on us, we made him think we wanted to throw him so badly, he would then try to pull us to the mat, if there was a ngewaza stalemate. If not of course, we would try to go to one knee or fall badly to prevent ippon,but if the strategy worked, and e tried to pll or bull us to the mat, we trained to go with the pull and leap on him as he tried to get us to the mat and slap the osaekomi on before he could recover.

The result of this strategy, was, using perfectly clean judo, I would usually win my matches with ippon, tow waza ari, or kesa gatame.:D

We worked a heck of a lot of escapes and turnovers, and getting into kesa, as Ahn Sensei taught Horne Sensei, involved raising the hips , triangulating the legs, balls of the feet into the mat pushing us, down into the opponent, and pulling his chest hard as we pushed with ours, leaving gi marks on uke's chest and inflicting severe discomfort to say the least with judo's most basic and so called easily escaped from hold.

We'd slap this on whle still falling t the mat, or while the oppoent was falling, and if he started to get loose as some would , slip an arm over into kata gatame.

I had very few ever get ot of kesa, and no one ever get out of kata gatame if I got it on fully , that is.

Had some struggles but usually succeeded.Sensei Ahn's kesa method earned many an unfavorable comment:D, Lead Balloon being the most frequent.

My interest in variant throws was purely for their surprise qualities, having a fondness for the o soto gake and ko uchi gari at different times.

But, the guy I really didn't want to meet was the other groundfighter, who was particularly dexterous with his legs and arms in coordination, often a smaller person, I was openweight.

Little mat spiders like that, couldn't beat me, but they could hold me to a draw, and wear me out to boot.:-)

Fortunately this breed was rare and becoming rarer at the time, muscle becoming more prominent and thus easier to beat with the tactics mentioned above.

Then there were the dirty judoka, thumb in the eys, kick in the knees,headbutt kind of guys.

While they often bruised us, Henry (Sensei Horne) taught us varios things, all legal, to do to these guys.

Over the shoulder and neck grips figuring prominently in the start, and makikomi tending to be the result.

GOOD Makikomi.<G>

Not belaboring the obvious, but there is a class of nagewaza where it truly is more blessed to give than to receive.:D

We used to think makikomi was Japanese for 'ribs to take out.'

9th October 2000, 08:27
Originally posted by kusanku:

But if that failed we were taught to take a good grip on the opponent, including 'munching' up the sleeve and lapels, and yank him forward and down off balance, again to stumble him to one knee, and then go for the turnover and the old when we got him to this position.

Failing this, we might try to wait him out, counter or block his throwing attemts, and hope he m,ade a mistake. I know this doesn't sound ideal, but it often worked.

Hi, John,
So you wrestled him or waited him out. Good judo, alright, but not if you are under the IJF rule of barely playing.

In the old days, it was not unusual to wait out someone, and scoring ippon. Sometimes, especially with them big fellers, they both would tire, and hold each other in a grip, waiting for the other guy to flinch. It was not much different than football (soccer) and then scoring the goal in the waning minutes of the game. Unfortunately, this is nearly impossible today, unless you have security in your ability to score that ippon or waza-ari. It has been effectively removed from the game, as passivity penalties could get you direct hansokumake from the tournament, even if you had another match, win or lose.

My newaza was usually limited to shime and kansetsu techniques. If I did manage to apply a pin, I worked hard to spread myself out as much as possible. Hon kesa gatame was difficult, as it is as easy to escape as it is to apply.


9th October 2000, 23:35
Mark" So you wrestled him or waited im out.'

Yep, thats about the size of it. I gathered rules ave changed quite a bit these days, and to my mind, much to the detriment of Judo, although that jumping juji gatame idea has an interesting sound to it, as that might work, but it might cause a ot of shoulder injuries as well.

You are of course right about the hon kesa gatame being as easy to escape as it was to apply, and that was a kind of , I gues you could say arrogant approach we took, like a slap in the face, sort of, saying, 'I'm putting on KESA, and youain't escaping!:-)

After tiring people with the waiting game which as you say, that could really do, they often were not able to, when you really slapped that baby on 'em! Be assured of course that if they started to get loose, the kata gatame, by nomeasn as easy to get out of as you are no doubt also aware:-), was quickly and I mean quickly, switched to.

Failing that, transition newaza was indulged in, a more wearing game then standing waiting but also fruitfulin the end, if you could get position n the uke and outlast him.

If not, well, then you lost.:-)